Am I supposed to be scribing?

<Justin> according to the agenda yes

<Justin> Scribe: Andrew

<Justin> ScribeNick: AndrewA

Justin, can you help oput for a few minutes while I get organised?

<Justin> sure

<shawn> Chair: Shawn

<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JulSep/0194.html

<pasquale> sorry, skype doesnt work

<shawn> who is here?

Outreach Updates

Justin: talked about the niche programming opportunity made available by podcasting and webTV

Doyle: and a big new area for accessibility

<hbj> me/ zakim, please mute helle_bjarno

Andrew: asks Justin to post any good Podcast sites to the list

<pasquale> it's me

Shawn: maybe we should offer to review some of the scripts to help them avoid mistakes - need to be careful depending on sensitivities, but could offer

Doyle: shares Justin's enthusiasm - a great way to share with a wider audience

<scribe> ACTION: consider "podcasts" in next round of deliverables discusison [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action01]

<scribe> ACTION: Justin to follow up with the internet TV show and offer to review for them and to post the archive to the EO list afterwards [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Involving Users in Web Accessibility Evaluation

Background: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/users.html

Shawn: summarises activity to date
... 2.1 - How does this draft address the issues raised in previous discussions & in comments?

See: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-eval-ut#refs & http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-eval-ut#changes

Shawn: I didn't see a smooth place to insert the suggestion that "some organisations can assist you with user testing"
... suggest inserting "selecting a consultant" when it is done at "For More Info"

Henk: This is different from what I and Andrew talked about
... need to mention (at least) that if you can't do the job yourself, there are orgs that can help

Andrew: support Henk- and should suggest that Disability Orgs can help with users, even if you can do it yourself

Wayne: agrees, it is important

Shawn: we could put it in the "More Info" area, even is we don't have any links

<Justin> sure

<Justin> ACTION: /changelog add into the for more info about using consultants...recruiting from disability organizations and specialization organizatinos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Henk: both issues should be mentioned - sourceing users via a local Disability Org or local University PLUS option of using a consultant such as Vision Australia or Bartimeus if you need more help

Shawn: lets look at the wording of the sentence currently listed for 'next version'
... broaden - done
... changelog - 28 September Notes - open items

Barry: "more info" section is a significant improvement

Shawn: what about any links for "Many resources cover usability evaluation techniques" paragraph?

Doyle: Wikipedia may be worth considering down the track - and our involvement in maintaining certain entries

<LiamM> http://search.dmoz.org/cgi-bin/search?search=usability

Liam: what linking to 'dmoz' instead of wikipedia (http://search.dmoz.org/cgi-bin/search?search=usability)

<scribe> ACTION: consider WAI/EO involvement in Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/) for accessibility entries for future deliverables [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action04]

<scribe> ACTION: Shawn to check DMOZ, Wikipedia, or other for usability resources [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Shawn: links to more general external resources is still on the agenda for future discussion
... now discuss third bullet under 29 Sept notes
... this is from the Introduction, 4th para

Barry: break sentence up

William: seems to make it a little cloudy - restricting it to usability testing for accessibility

Shadi: happy with definition of "comprehensive eval", but what about links? I expected to go to an external doc, not just internal definition link.

Andrew: what about usability issues for users of assitive technology?

Shawn: What about "involving users in evaluation" and elaborate later?

Andrew: sounds good

<Justin> ACTION: /changelog information 4th paragraph second sentence change the bullets and change usability testing for accessibility issues to user evaluation and consider how to address that one of the links go to the other document and some go to a terminology at the bottom of the page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action06]

<Justin> ACTION: /changelog look at skimmability [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action07]

William: notion that this is for the involver, not the involvee, is still an issue

Shawn: primary audience is web developers/designers for this document

William: needs to tell this group that "nothing about us without us" and NEED to inlvolve the users
... need to stress the partnership with PWD if you are going to get it right

Andrew: stress the need to include the target audience in your testing

Doyle: stress PWD as stakeholder in the final outcome

<scribe> ACTION: William to suggest some wording not to include PWD just as "lab rats", rather as coolaborators for para 4 or 5 and incorporate the preceding discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action08]

Shawn: 2.2 - Are there any new issues with this draft?
... section by section then - start with Intro

Liam: 3rd paragraph - if we allow clients just to watch users, then tend to phase out. Better to force them to make notes.

Shawn: I've found more informal testing - interacting with the PWD - is best

Andrew: we also find interactive sessions best

William: Need to stress the collaborative nature of involving PWD

<Justin> ACTION: /changelog intro 3rd paragraph...change the idea of watching pwd to the idea of interacting with pwd [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action09]

Shawn: what about "Using Different Types of Evaluation" section?
... note that the heading has changed since last version

<Justin> ACTION: /changelog in different types section - look for watching and changing to interacting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action10]

Andrew: first bullet might inlcude interaction, not just observe

<scribe> ACTION: William to suggest changes to sentence following the bullets [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action11]

William: seems that PWD can not be "usability testing experts"

Liam: I don't have these concerns - Shawn doesn't either

Shawn: What about "Including Diverse Users" section?

Henk: second sentence - what about "different needs"?

Liam: need to stop people hinking of PWD as "needy" - prefer not to reference "needs"

Henk: can refer to their need for certain web quality aspects - maybe "requirements"

Liam: stressing the diversity of users is what we are trying to do

Andrew: seems that "requirements" is part of diversity

Doyle: like all the words we have used + requirements

Shawn: concern is that there is a myth that PWD have an incredibly wide range of "requirements" that can never be met

Henk: happy to leave as is - reason was that requirements is slightly different from preferences, and to stress the diversity of PWD

Shawn: what about "Optimizing User Involvement" section?

Henk: is 2nd para realy about this section?

Liam: it is very 'jargony' too

<LiamM> Suggest revise to e.g.

<LiamM> A facilitator usually works with the user to encourage 'thinking-out-loud', and tasks would concentrate on specific areas of concern for potential accessibility problems. User satisfaction or the time it takes to complete each task would be less important results.

<scribe> ACTION: editors discretion about how best to handle this para - leave here, rewrite, etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action12]

Liam: what about the title becoming " getting the best from your testing" and don't waste the user's time

Andrew: fiest para - also need to include a note about addressing the findings from the prelim review before bringing in the users

Wayne: need to stress the interactive nature of user testing again

Shawn: lets look at the "Diagnosing Accessibility Problems" section.

Justin: had to read it a few times - but what was the message? not sure where to go next

Liam: the three bullets give just a few pointers about where to look for the problems

Andrew: empahsises Henk's earlier point about maybe needing a specialised consultant to assist you to decipher the solution

Liam: stresses the need for the develoepr to be present during user tesing, and maybe a technical AT person too

Shawn: I see the problem, buit not sure who to address it yet - can we come back later and try again to solve

<scribe> ACTION: revisit this section later [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action13]

Shawn: also the issue od uasbility / accessibility
... lets lok at the "Drawing Conclusions and Reporting" section

Jack: 1st section bother me - saying "cannot determine if a Web site is accessible" suggests "why bother"

<Justin> ACTION: /changelog in drawing conclusions...add some of the benefits of what it can do [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action14]

Andrew: waht about rephrasing to "can determine if a Web site is inaccessible"

William: waht about strwessing "necessary, but not sufficient"

Shawn: what about repating the benefits - all agree

<Justin> ACTION: /changelog in drawing conclusions....change testing methodology to testing method [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action15]

William: need to stress again that it is important to inlcude PWD in any evaluation process

Shawn: nearly out of time - can we postpone the issue of "its too hard"?

<hbj> I have to go I have a very bad cold I don't mind if you continue Bye from me

Shawn: can we extend the meeting a little to talk about the "usability - accessibility" issue

William: voting to upgrade the importance of this in the overall WAI scheme

All: happy to extend the meeting slightly (even if not staying)

<LiamM> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/users-old2.html

Shawn: can we look at http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/users-old.html
... can we look at the bullet "distinguish between usability & accessibility issues"

Shawn - can't distinguish between these, some things are clearly general uasbility, others are technical accessibility, many things obvioulsy overlap

Liam: what about "an accessibility issue is a usability issue that impacts on PWD"?

Shawn: do we even need to say anything?

Wayne: yes - firstly gracefull transformation is usability, secondly, paying excessive attention to accessibility can avoid usability

Andrew: some usability issues wil be specific to specific groups of PWD, while others will apply to all users, though the impact may be more severe on PWD

Liam: can we give some specifics about the impact such as slowness of interaction, visual display vs markup, etc

<pasquale> me too

<shawn> :)

<pasquale> ;-)

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127  of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: Andrew
Found ScribeNick: AndrewA
Present: wayne Jack Doyle_Saylor Andrew Henk Shadi_(muted) Justin_(muted) Shawn barry Bingham Liam Pasquale helle william

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: George, Roberto, Barry)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ George, Roberto

Regrets: George Roberto
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JulSep/0194.html
Got date from IRC log name: 30 Sep 2005
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html

WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: /changelog information 4th paragraph second sentence change the bullets and change usability testing for accessibility issues to user evaluation and consider how to address that one of the links go to the other document and some go to a terminology at the bottom of the page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action06]


WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: /changelog in drawing conclusions...add some of the benefits of what it can do [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action14]


WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: /changelog in drawing conclusions....change testing methodology to testing method [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action15]


WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: /changelog add into the for more info about using consultants...recruiting from disability organizations and specialization organizatinos [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action03]


WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: /changelog look at skimmability [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action07]


WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: /changelog intro 3rd paragraph...change the idea of watching pwd to the idea of interacting with pwd [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action09]


WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: /changelog in different types section - look for watching and changing to interacting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html#action10]

People with action items: about best consider discretion editors how justin revisit shawn william

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