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12:25:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-irc
12:25:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
12:25:29 <Justin> zakim, this will be eowg
12:25:29 <Zakim> ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
12:25:38 <AndrewA> Am I supposed to be scribing?
12:25:49 <Jack> Jack has joined #eo
12:25:50 <Justin> according to the agenda yes
12:26:08 <Justin> Meeting: EOWG
12:26:11 <Justin> Chair: Judy
12:26:14 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:26:21 <Zakim> +??P0
12:26:24 <Justin> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JulSep/0194.html
12:26:52 <Justin> Scribe: Andrew
12:26:56 <Wayne> zakim, ??p0 is wayne
12:26:56 <Zakim> +wayne; got it
12:26:57 <Zakim> +Jack
12:27:01 <Justin> ScribeNick: AndrewA
12:27:23 <AndrewA> Justin, can you help oput for a few minutes while I get organised?
12:27:30 <Justin> sure
12:27:31 <shawn> Chair: Shawn
12:27:51 <Zakim> +Doyle_Saylor
12:28:03 <AndrewA> Regrets: George, Roberto, Barry
12:28:19 <Justin> Regrets: George, Roberto
12:29:00 <Zakim> +??P3
12:29:08 <AndrewA> Zakim, ??p3 is Andrew
12:29:08 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
12:30:24 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
12:30:40 <Zakim> +Henk
12:30:43 <Zakim> +Shadi
12:30:44 <AndrewA> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JulSep/0194.html
12:31:05 <Zakim> +??P4
12:31:13 <Zakim> +Shawn
12:31:15 <Justin> Zakim, Justin is ??P4
12:31:15 <Zakim> sorry, Justin, I do not recognize a party named 'Justin'
12:31:21 <Justin> zakim, Justin is P4
12:31:21 <Zakim> sorry, Justin, I do not recognize a party named 'Justin'
12:31:23 <Zakim> +??P8
12:31:34 <Justin> zakim, P4 is Justin
12:31:34 <Zakim> sorry, Justin, I do not recognize a party named 'P4'
12:31:37 <Zakim> +Bingham
12:31:38 <shadi> zakim, please mute me
12:31:38 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
12:32:18 <shawn> zakim, ??p8 is barry
12:32:18 <Zakim> +barry; got it
12:32:19 <Justin> zakim, ??P4 is Justin
12:32:19 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
12:32:29 <barry> barry has joined #eo
12:32:31 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:32:31 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:32:52 <AndrewA> zakim, who is present?
12:32:52 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AndrewA.
12:33:03 <pasquale> sorry, skype doesnt work
12:33:09 <AndrewA> zakim, who is here?
12:33:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see wayne, Jack, Doyle_Saylor, Andrew, Henk, Shadi (muted), Justin (muted), Shawn, barry, Bingham
12:33:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see barry, Harvey, Jack, Zakim, RRSAgent, pasquale, Wayne, AndrewA, Justin, shadi, shawn
12:34:20 <hbj> hbj has joined #eo
12:34:40 <Zakim> + +33.1.45.89.aaaa
12:34:51 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
12:34:51 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
12:34:57 <shawn> zakim, aaaa is Tanguy
12:34:57 <Zakim> +Tanguy; got it
12:35:07 <Zakim> +Helle_Bjarno
12:35:14 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:35:14 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:35:21 <shadi> zakim, please unmute me
12:35:21 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
12:35:29 <shadi> zakim, please mute me
12:35:29 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
12:35:36 <shawn> who is here?
12:35:42 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
12:35:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see wayne, Jack, Doyle_Saylor, Andrew, Henk, Shadi (muted), Justin (muted), Shawn, barry, Bingham, Tanguy, Helle_Bjarno
12:35:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see hbj, barry, Harvey, Jack, Zakim, RRSAgent, pasquale, Wayne, AndrewA, Justin, shadi, shawn
12:36:07 <Justin> zakim, please unmute m
12:36:07 <Zakim> sorry, Justin, I do not see a party named 'm'
12:36:15 <Justin> zakim, unmute me
12:36:15 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
12:36:18 <AndrewA> Topic: Outreach Updates
12:37:11 <AndrewA> Justin: talked about the niche programming opportunity made available by podcasting and webTV
12:37:31 <AndrewA> Doyle: and a big new area for accessibility
12:37:44 <hbj> me/ zakim, please mute helle_bjarno
12:38:53 <AndrewA> Andrew: asks Justin to post any good Podcast sites to the list
12:39:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:39:10 <pasquale> it's me
12:40:11 <AndrewA> Shawn: maybe we should offer to review some of the scripts to help them avoid mistakes - need to be careful depending on sensitivities, but could offer
12:40:31 <AndrewA> zakim, IPcaller is Pasquale
12:40:31 <Zakim> +Pasquale; got it
12:41:32 <AndrewA> Doyle: shares Justin's enthusiasm - a great way to share with a wider audience
12:42:47 <AndrewA> Action: consider "podcasts" in next round of deliverables discusison
12:43:41 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:43:41 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:43:56 <shawn> zakim, who is making noise?
12:44:06 <Zakim> shawn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shawn (44%), Pasquale (19%)
12:44:10 <AndrewA> Action: Justin to follow up with the internet TV show and offer to review for them and to post the archive to the EO list afterwards
12:44:22 <pasquale> zakim, please mute me
12:44:22 <Zakim> Pasquale should now be muted
12:44:28 <AndrewA> Topic: Involving Users in Web Accessibility Evaluation
12:44:50 <AndrewA> Background: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/users.html
12:45:27 <AndrewA> Shawn: summarises activity to date 
12:45:46 <AndrewA> Shawn: 2.1 - How does this draft address the issues raised in previous discussions & in comments?
12:46:19 <AndrewA> See: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-eval-ut#refs & http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-eval-ut#changes
12:48:04 <AndrewA> Shawn: I didn't see a smooth place to insert the suggestion that "some organisations can assist you with user testing"
12:49:16 <AndrewA> Shawn: suggest inserting "selecting a consultant" when it is done at "For More Info"
12:49:51 <AndrewA> Henk: This is different from what I and Andrew talked about
12:50:00 <LiamM> LiamM has joined #eo
12:50:09 <Zakim> + +44.137.383.aabb
12:50:27 <AndrewA> Henk: need to mention (at least) that if you can't do the job yourself, there are orgs that can help
12:50:32 <shawn> zakim, aabb is Liam
12:50:32 <Zakim> +Liam; got it
12:52:06 <AndrewA> Andrew: support Henk- and should suggest that Disability Orgs can help with users, even if you can do it yourself
12:52:16 <AndrewA> Wayne: agrees, it is important
12:53:15 <AndrewA> Shawn: we could put it in the "More Info" area, even is we don't have any links
12:54:42 <Justin> sure
12:55:37 <Justin> action: /changelog add into the for more info about using consultants...recruiting from disability organizations and specialization organizatinos
12:56:27 <AndrewA> Henk: both issues should be mentioned - sourceing users via a local Disability Org or local University PLUS option of using a consultant such as Vision Australia or Bartimeus if you need more help
12:58:14 <AndrewA> Shawn: lets look at the wording of the sentence currently listed for 'next version'
12:58:39 <AndrewA> Shawn: broaden - done
12:59:18 <AndrewA> Shawn: changelog - 28 September Notes - open items
12:59:39 <Zakim> +Loughborough
13:04:11 <AndrewA> Barry: "more info" section is a significant improvement
13:04:51 <AndrewA> Shawn: what about any links for "Many resources cover usability evaluation techniques" paragraph?
13:05:59 <AndrewA> Doyle: Wikipedia may be worth considering down the track - and our involvement in maintaining certain entries
13:06:37 <LiamM> http://search.dmoz.org/cgi-bin/search?search=usability
13:07:09 <AndrewA> Liam: what linking to 'dmoz' instead of wikipedia (http://search.dmoz.org/cgi-bin/search?search=usability)
13:08:45 <AndrewA> Action: consider WAI/EO involvement in Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/) for accessibility entries for future deliverables
13:09:31 <AndrewA> Action: Shawn to check DMOZ, Wikipedia, or other for usability resources
13:10:19 <AndrewA> Shawn: links to more general external resources is still on the agenda for future discussion
13:11:14 <AndrewA> Shawn: now discuss third bullet under 29 Sept notes
13:12:14 <AndrewA> Shawn: this is from the Introduction, 4th para
13:12:23 <AndrewA> Barry: break sentence up
13:13:27 <shadi> q+
13:14:09 <AndrewA> William: seems to make it a little cloudy - restricting it to usability testing for accessibility
13:16:05 <shadi> zakim, please unmute me
13:16:05 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
13:18:05 <AndrewA> Shadi: happy with definition of "comprehensive eval", but what about links? I expected to go to an external doc, not just internal definition link.
13:18:18 <shadi> zakim, please mute me
13:18:18 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:19:54 <AndrewA> Andrew: what about usability issues for users of assitive technology?
13:20:58 <AndrewA> Shawn: What about "involving users in evaluation" and elaborate later?
13:21:05 <AndrewA> Andrew: sounds good
13:21:44 <Justin> action: /changelog information 4th paragraph second sentence change the bullets and change usability testing for accessibility issues to user evaluation and consider how to address that one of the links go to the other document and some go to a terminology at the bottom of the page
13:24:38 <Justin> Action: /changelog look at skimmability
13:26:31 <AndrewA> William: notion that this is for the involver, not the involvee, is still an issue
13:27:01 <AndrewA> Shawn: primary audience is web developers/designers for this document
13:28:12 <AndrewA> William: needs to tell this group that "nothing about us without us" and NEED to inlvolve the users
13:29:57 <AndrewA> William: need to stress the partnership with PWD if you are going to get it right
13:30:14 <Zakim> -barry
13:30:50 <AndrewA> Andrew: stress the need to include the target audience in your testing
13:31:17 <AndrewA> Doyle: stress PWD as stakeholder in the final outcome
13:35:20 <AndrewA> Action: William to suggest some wording to include PWD as "lab rats" for para 4 or 5 and incorporate the preceding discussion
13:36:17 <AndrewA> Shawn: 2.2 - Are there any new issues with this draft?
13:37:43 <AndrewA> Shawn: section by section then - start with Intro
13:39:13 <AndrewA> Liam: 3rd paragraph - if we allow clients just to watch users, then tend to phase out. Better to force them to make notes.
13:40:13 <AndrewA> Shawn: I've found more informal testing - interacting with the PWD - is best
13:40:31 <AndrewA> Andrew: we also find interactive sessions best
13:41:10 <AndrewA> William: Need to stress the collaborative nature of involving PWD
13:41:43 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
13:41:43 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
13:42:11 <Justin> action: /changelog intro 3rd paragraph...change the idea of watching pwd to the idea of interacting with pwd
13:42:21 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
13:42:21 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
13:43:35 <AndrewA> Shawn: what about "Using Different Types of Evaluation" section?
13:43:55 <AndrewA> Shawn: note that the heading has changed since last version
13:45:15 <Justin> action: /changelog in different types section - look for watching and changing to interacting 
13:46:28 <AndrewA> Andrew: first bullet might inlcude interaction, not just observe
13:48:24 <AndrewA> Action: William to suggest changes to sentence following the bullets
13:49:54 <AndrewA> William: seems that PWD can not be "usability testing experts"
13:50:51 <AndrewA> Liam: I don't have these concerns - Shawn doesn't either
13:51:38 <AndrewA> Shawn: What about "Including Diverse Users" section?
13:52:10 <AndrewA> Henk: second sentence - what about "different needs"?
13:53:01 <AndrewA> Liam: need to stop people hinking of PWD as "needy" - prefer not to reference "needs"
13:54:01 <AndrewA> Henk: can refer to their need for certain web quality aspects - maybe "requirements"
13:55:28 <AndrewA> Liam: stressing the diversity of users is what we are trying to do
13:55:56 <AndrewA> Andrew: seems that "requirements" is part of diversity
13:56:19 <AndrewA> Doyle: like all the words we have used + requirements
13:57:03 <AndrewA> Shawn: concern is that there is a myth that PWD have an incredibly wide range of "requirements" that can never be met
13:58:39 <AndrewA> Henk: happy to leave as is - reason was that requirements is slightly different from preferences, and to stress the diversity of PWD
13:59:30 <AndrewA> Shawn: what about "Optimizing User Involvement" section?
13:59:57 <AndrewA> Henk: is 2nd para realy about this section?
14:03:16 <AndrewA> Liam: it is very 'jargony' too
14:05:26 <LiamM> Suggest revise to e.g.
14:05:28 <LiamM> A facilitator usually works with the user to encourage 'thinking-out-loud', and tasks would concentrate on specific areas of concern for potential accessibility problems. User satisfaction or the time it takes to complete each task would be less important results.
14:06:34 <AndrewA> Action: editors discretion about how best to handle this para - leave here, rewrite, etc
14:09:54 <AndrewA> Liam: what about the title becoming " getting the best from your testing" and don't waste the user's time
14:11:17 <AndrewA> Andrew: fiest para - also need to include a note about addressing the findings from the prelim review before bringing in the users
14:12:42 <AndrewA> Wayne: need to stress the interactive nature of user testing again
14:13:11 <AndrewA> Shawn: lets look at the "Diagnosing Accessibility Problems" section.
14:13:49 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
14:13:49 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
14:15:33 <AndrewA> Justin: had to read it a few times - but what was the message? not sure where to go next
14:15:56 <AndrewA> Liam: the three bullets give just a few pointers about where to look for the problems
14:17:58 <AndrewA> Andrew: empahsises Henk's earlier point about maybe needing a specialised consultant to assist you to decipher the solution
14:18:36 <AndrewA> Liam: stresses the need for the develoepr to be present during user tesing, and maybe a technical AT person too
14:20:23 <AndrewA> Shawn: I see the problem, buit not sure who to address it yet - can we come back later and try again to solve
14:20:28 <Jack> Jack has joined #eo
14:20:43 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
14:20:43 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
14:20:57 <AndrewA> Action: revisit this section later
14:21:33 <AndrewA> Shawn: also the issue od uasbility / accessibility
14:21:54 <AndrewA> Shawn: lets lok at the "Drawing Conclusions and Reporting" section
14:22:57 <AndrewA> Jack: 1st section bother me - saying "cannot determine if a Web site is accessible" suggests "why bother"
14:23:32 <Justin> action: /changelog in drawing conclusions...add some of the benefits of what it can do
14:23:43 <AndrewA> Andrew: waht about rephrasing to "can determine if a Web site is inaccessible"
14:24:04 <AndrewA> William: waht about strwessing "necessary, but not sufficient"
14:24:30 <AndrewA> Shawn: what about repating the benefits - all agree
14:25:16 <Justin> action: /changelog in drawing conclusions....change testing methodology to testing method
14:26:53 <AndrewA> William: need to stress again that it is important to inlcude PWD in any evaluation process
14:27:45 <AndrewA> Shawn: nearly out of time - can we postpone the issue of "its too hard"?
14:28:03 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
14:28:03 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
14:28:08 <hbj> I have to go I have a very bad cold I don't mind if you continue Bye from me
14:28:28 <AndrewA> Shawn: can we extend the meeting a little to talk about the "usability - accessibility" issue
14:29:00 <Zakim> -Loughborough
14:29:05 <shadi> zakim, please unmute me
14:29:05 <Zakim> Shadi should no longer be muted
14:29:07 <AndrewA> William: voting to upgrade the importance of this in the overall WAI scheme
14:29:17 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:29:22 <Zakim> -Helle_Bjarno
14:29:47 <Zakim> -Doyle_Saylor
14:29:51 <Zakim> -Tanguy
14:30:15 <Zakim> -Justin
14:30:20 <AndrewA> All: happy to extend the meeting slightly (even if not staying)
14:30:56 <AndrewA> Zakim, who was on the call?
14:30:56 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AndrewA.
14:31:36 <LiamM> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/users-old2.html
14:32:09 <AndrewA> Shawn: can we look at http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/users-old.html
14:32:47 <AndrewA> Shawn: can we look at the bullet "distinguish between usability & accessibility issues"
14:34:27 <AndrewA> Shawn - can't distinguish between these, some things are clearly general uasbility, others are technical accessibility, many things obvioulsy overlap
14:35:32 <AndrewA> Liam: what about "an accessibility issue is a usability issue that impacts on PWD"?
14:35:43 <AndrewA> Shawn: do we even need to say anything?
14:36:47 <AndrewA> Wayne: yes - firstly gracefull transformation is usability, secondly, paying excessive attention to accessibility can avoid usability
14:47:02 <AndrewA> Andrew: some usability issues wil be specific to specific groups of PWD, while others will apply to all users, though the impact may be more severe on PWD
14:48:38 <AndrewA> Liam: can we give some specifics about the impact such as slowness of interaction, visual display vs markup, etc
14:48:44 <Zakim> -Liam
14:48:46 <Zakim> -Bingham
14:48:49 <Zakim> -Jack
14:48:50 <Zakim> -wayne
14:48:53 <pasquale> zakim, please unmute me
14:48:53 <Zakim> Pasquale should no longer be muted
14:48:55 <Zakim> -Henk
14:49:12 <Zakim> -Pasquale
14:49:59 <shawn> present: wayne, Jack, Doyle_Saylor, Andrew, Henk, Shadi (muted), Justin (muted), Shawn, barry, Bingham
14:50:05 <shawn> present+ Liam
14:50:14 <pasquale> me too
14:50:20 <shawn> present+ Pasquale
14:50:22 <shawn> :)
14:50:26 <pasquale> ;-)
14:50:47 <shawn> present+ helle, william
14:51:06 <shawn> rrsagent, make logs world
14:51:17 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:51:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/09/30-eo-minutes.html shawn
14:55:20 <pasquale> hi shawn, hi andrew, hi shadi, have a good weekend :)
15:00:57 <Zakim> -Shawn
15:00:58 <Zakim> -Andrew
15:00:59 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:01:00 <Zakim> Attendees were wayne, Jack, Doyle_Saylor, Andrew, Henk, Shadi, Shawn, Bingham, barry, Justin, +33.1.45.89.aaaa, Tanguy, Helle_Bjarno, Pasquale, +44.137.383.aabb, Liam, Loughborough
17:04:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eo