IRC log of tagmem on 2005-09-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:10:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
08:10:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-tagmem-irc
08:10:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
08:18:38 [DanC_EDI]
The Web not only provides a neutral answer questions about word processor formats, operating systems, and networking technologies, but it integrates individual documents into a whole, so that if information is already in the Web somewhere, you can just link to it. HTML is feature-poor when compared to other document formats, but the integration benefits of linking outweigh the costs.
08:18:38 [DanC_EDI]
This works pretty well for documents. If you're asked to provide a document to people that use different kinds of computers, you can just put it on the Web in HTML and they can all read it. But the integration problem is still there for data. When a soccer coach distributes a schedule for the season, each of the players has to re-key the information for their calendar system if they want their computer to help them manage conflicts. When an airline sends
08:18:41 [DanC_EDI]
itineraries, each passenger manually processes them.
08:18:43 [DanC_EDI]
The problem is addressed at least in part by an Internet standard for calendar data, iCalendar[RFC2554]. But it's not clear that iCalendar provides sufficient integration benefits to outweigh the cost of migrating to open systems from more mature closed calendaring systems.
08:18:47 [DanC_EDI]
The RDF Calendar vocabulary is the result of a test-driven Semantic Web vocabulary development effort. hCalendar is an emerging microformat standard. GRDDL lets you store RDF data in XHTML documents, such as hCalendar documents. This RDF data cam be mixed with social networking data (FOAF), syndicated content (RSS), multimedia metadata (dublin core, musicbrainz) and more, and promises the sort of linking and integration benefit that made HTML the leading
08:18:57 [DanC_EDI]
choice among document formats.
08:18:57 [DanC_EDI]
The Web not only provides a neutral answer questions about word processor formats, operating systems, and networking technologies, but it integrates individual documents into a whole, so that if information is already in the Web somewhere, you can just link to it. HTML is feature-poor when compared to other document formats, but the integration benefits of linking outweigh the costs.
08:18:59 [DanC_EDI]
This works pretty well for documents. If you're asked to provide a document to people that use different kinds of computers, you can just put it on the Web in HTML and they can all read it. But the integration problem is still there for data. When a soccer coach distributes a schedule for the season, each of the players has to re-key the information for their calendar system if they want their computer to help them manage conflicts. When an airline sends
08:19:04 [DanC_EDI]
itineraries, each passenger manually processes them.
08:19:08 [DanC_EDI]
The problem is addressed at least in part by an Internet standard for calendar data, iCalendar[RFC2554]. But it's not clear that iCalendar provides sufficient integration benefits to outweigh the cost of migrating to open systems from more mature closed calendaring systems.
08:19:10 [DanC_EDI]
The RDF Calendar vocabulary is the result of a test-driven Semantic Web vocabulary development effort. hCalendar is an emerging microformat standard. GRDDL lets you store RDF data in XHTML documents, such as hCalendar documents. This RDF data cam be mixed with social networking data (FOAF), syndicated content (RSS), multimedia metadata (dublin core, musicbrainz) and more, and promises the sort of linking and integration benefit that made HTML the leading
08:19:15 [DanC_EDI]
choice among document formats.
08:19:17 [DanC_EDI]
Regrets: Ed Rice
08:19:21 [DanC_EDI]
oops.
08:19:40 [DanC_EDI]
Meeting: TAG ftf Sep 2005
08:19:45 [DanC_EDI]
Regrets: Ed Rice
08:19:59 [DanC_EDI]
Present: VQ, TBL, NDW, HT, DC, NM
08:20:09 [DanC_EDI]
presumed in transit: RF
08:24:47 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
08:26:37 [DanC_EDI]
presumed in transit: RF, DO
08:28:57 [Noah_Edinburgh]
Topic: Administrivia
08:29:44 [noah]
VQ: We are expecting visitors from U of Edinburgh and Fujitsu to meet with us at 10:30 on grid
08:30:25 [ht]
ht has joined #tagmem
08:31:33 [DanC_EDI]
NDW wed pm
08:31:38 [DanC_EDI]
TBL Tue am
08:31:48 [DanC_EDI]
NDW wed am
08:31:59 [DanC_EDI]
Wed PM DanC
08:32:10 [DanC_EDI]
Thu PM HT
08:32:24 [DanC_EDI]
Tue PM NM
08:32:55 [timbl]
Previous minutes are linked from the agenda
08:33:08 [timbl]
Ed had comments, reflected already.
08:33:14 [timbl]
Norm: Good useful minutes
08:33:36 [timbl]
RESOLVED approve minutes of last meeting, Tim abstaining
08:33:51 [timbl]
[discussion of agenda]
08:34:05 [timbl]
VQ: Goals of meeting are two:
08:34:27 [timbl]
... we can check priorities and new directions as we discussed face-face
08:34:57 [timbl]
.. part of that being the discussion we will have on the Grid
08:35:42 [timbl]
... part is a discussion on security (Danc had some assignments in this area).
08:36:08 [timbl]
... Secondly, I would liek to quickly review a bunch of issues which we should be able to decide.
08:36:28 [timbl]
.. Some of these are in an unclear status, which I would like to clarify.
08:37:04 [timbl]
... There are 7 issues which are are particularly 'hot', in that we probbly won't be able to get closure on this face-face meeting.
08:38:08 [timbl]
... See 3.5 and following sections issues 8 37 41 47 48 51 49
08:40:15 [timbl]
Noah: Update about recent MS dev conference re web applications we could do 15 minutes on.
08:40:22 [timbl]
Vincent: Ok
08:40:29 [timbl]
___________________________________
08:40:41 [timbl]
topic: face-face meetings
08:41:02 [timbl]
VQ: Next scheduled 5,6 Dec 2005 Massachusetts
08:42:37 [timbl]
Noah: IBM could help host if any problems.
08:43:34 [timbl]
VQ: The following one is in the Technical plenary week. We need to decide which days we should pick.
08:44:16 [timbl]
Tim: We have to decide in terms of other groups we want to met with
08:45:01 [timbl]
Norm, henry: We can't manage this meeting, we have two other groups we are also committed to!
08:45:23 [timbl]
norm: It has seemed helpful to sit down with other groups
08:46:22 [timbl]
Noah: Is it easy for us to be all there all week, maybe? At least those present (ex Roy, Dave)
08:46:38 [timbl]
VQ: We normally have incoming as well as outgoing members
08:46:59 [timbl]
Norm: We should remind candidates for election that there is already a scheduled meeting
08:47:51 [timbl]
VQ: How long should we meet for as a group?
08:48:07 [timbl]
HT: How about a sessio at the end to compare notes -- unless people have to leave on Fri pm
08:48:34 [timbl]
Noah: Concern TAG not roaring ahead -- we need face time together.
08:48:40 [Vincent]
Vincent has joined #tagmem
08:49:45 [timbl]
Norm: Exepct core and schema to be on one end and query to be on the other end.
08:49:57 [timbl]
of the week.
08:50:41 [timbl]
[discussion of combinatorial logistics]
08:51:12 [timbl]
Norm: Propose half a day at the beginning and half at the end -- I could justify dropping other meetings for that.
08:54:38 [DanC_EDI]
(if we just decided something, the record isn't sufficiently clear to me)
08:55:25 [DanC_EDI]
TP week is Mon 27 Feb to Fri 3 Mar 2006
08:55:50 [timbl]
We will meet on the afternoons of 22nd February and 3 March.
08:56:29 [timbl]
Norm: Were a XML Processing Model WG to be formed, we might well want to meet with it.
08:56:39 [timbl]
RESOLVED We will meet on the afternoons of 22nd February and 3 March.
08:56:52 [timbl]
RESOLVED We will meet on the afternoons of 27nd February and 3 March.
08:57:02 [timbl]
-2d
08:58:00 [timbl]
VQ: Now, how about the next meeting in May or June?
08:58:33 [timbl]
Norm: Possible offer for Western Mass
08:59:04 [timbl]
VQ: There is a international www confeernce in edinburgh with an AC meeting before it in Edinburgh
08:59:16 [DanC_EDI]
"18-20 May 2006, Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom" -- http://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/
08:59:55 [timbl]
tx
09:00:20 [DanC_EDI]
22-26 May WWW2006 http://www2006.org/
09:01:30 [timbl]
VQ: Lets meet in June
09:05:18 [timbl]
Closets airports BDL Bradley in Hertford
09:05:30 [timbl]
Closest
09:05:48 [timbl]
Tim and Noah will drive of course - 2 hours.
09:07:53 [timbl]
Resolved: Hold those dates June 12-14 2005 modulo Norm getting a big enough tent etc
09:09:09 [timbl]
Fallback is Kansas City 20,21,22 June
09:10:29 [DanC_EDI]
(semantic web scheduling use-case: N tag members in a room, all reserving dates in N different calendar apps)
09:13:19 [timbl]
topic: TAG presentation at AC meeting in Monteal
09:13:47 [timbl]
VQ: We should make a report.
09:14:01 [timbl]
Tim, Henry, DanC planning to be there
09:14:08 [timbl]
VQ not sure
09:15:00 [DanC_EDI]
DanC not sure
09:16:38 [timbl]
RESOLVED: Henry will present the TAG to the AC meeting.
09:19:36 [timbl]
[break]
09:20:56 [noah]
Tim: here are hints on running the scribing PERL script: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
09:22:34 [DanC_EDI]
[10:21] <jose-cms05>Danc_EDI, one rule is to get off X, switch to the CRT, then launch X
09:22:35 [DanC_EDI]
[10:21] <jose-cms05>VQ is a D600
09:28:36 [timbl]
[Enter right Dave Berry, National E-Science Centre, Edinburgh,
09:28:36 [timbl]
David Snelling, Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe.]
09:35:33 [Vincent]
Vincent has joined #tagmem
09:36:33 [Roy]
Roy has joined #tagmem
09:37:11 [timbl]
Scribe: Tim Berners-Lee
09:37:24 [timbl]
ScribeNick: timbl
09:37:53 [timbl]
Meeting: W3C TAG face-face Edinbugh first morning 2005-09-20
09:38:06 [timbl]
Chair: Vincent Quint
09:39:10 [timbl]
[general laughter]
09:39:13 [DanC_EDI]
nice to hear from you, Roy. the other possibilities we imagined were all worse
09:39:13 [timbl]
:)
09:40:16 [Roy]
Too many variables, too little sleep
09:40:20 [timbl]
[end break]
09:40:36 [DanC_EDI]
if you slept thru the alarms, you needed the sleep
09:40:50 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
09:40:58 [timbl]
topic: Dave Snelling presentation of grid
09:42:08 [timbl]
[Enter right David Orchard, dapper in a light suede jacket and fashionable dangling earphone]
09:50:05 [timbl]
Dave S promises to email the slides to www-archive@w3.org
09:52:05 [timbl]
DS: Discussed with HT and DB and others about what to talk about.
09:52:27 [timbl]
... In "What is a resource, "Here be dragons"
09:53:01 [timbl]
... I have a few hats, and NextGrid are paying this trip. I woul dfor Fujitsu labs Europe
09:53:17 [timbl]
... Working as GGF vcie-chair
09:53:25 [timbl]
.. Chair of WSRF TC in OASIS
09:53:49 [timbl]
... Was co-chair of OGSI working group before that
09:54:16 [timbl]
... I was with the Unicore project, a European parallel to the Globus project.
09:54:41 [timbl]
DS: Motivation.
09:55:33 [timbl]
I was wondering about using the word "resource" with different colors depending on the context and local meaning.
09:56:23 [timbl]
I want to look at the object model for a resource and see what the overlap is with W3C, OGSA
09:56:53 [timbl]
DS: Outline.
09:57:06 [dorchard]
dorchard has joined #tagmem
09:57:28 [timbl]
DS: I can talk about what a WSRF resource is. OGSA resource is a moving target.
10:01:49 [timbl]
Tim: "Modifyable by representation" only applies to information resources
10:01:54 [DanC_EDI]
(discussion of "information resource"... )
10:05:55 [timbl]
DS: If two URIs differ, only the resource can tell you that two mean the same thing
10:06:08 [timbl]
TIim: well, you can find out in various ways
10:12:05 [ht]
Timbl: "Representations don't have URIs"
10:12:14 [ht]
[HST is somewhat surprised by that statement]
10:12:39 [timbl]
[more discussion ... how representations are just what is transferred in the message when the IR is accessed]
10:13:37 [timbl]
DS: Generally the URI is insufficient to access a resource
10:15:10 [timbl]
[discussion of the notion of identity of a resource]
10:21:06 [timbl]
[discussion of why banks do or don't give bookmarkable URIs]
10:22:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
10:22:16 [timbl]
DS: IN terms of teh world outside, the notion of contextis very important
10:22:22 [timbl]
DS: Slide: Reality Check
10:23:42 [timbl]
Noh: If the provider tells yo about the structrue of the URIs, then you can depend on that.
10:24:16 [timbl]
Tim: For example an HTML form.
10:24:23 [timbl]
DS: Slide: WS-Resource
10:26:00 [timbl]
DB: A resource could be a terrabyte stroe, and the XML represnetatoin only some stfff about it.
10:26:19 [timbl]
HT: Like streaming radio ... the URL s for the description.
10:27:52 [timbl]
DS: A WS-R could be an executing application. The state could have some of teh global variables of the application.
10:28:59 [timbl]
DS: There is a notion of destruction of the WS-R which may or may not destry the resource itself, just the access to it.
10:30:04 [timbl]
DS: The semantics of destruction of a resource on the resource are not defined.
10:31:33 [timbl]
DS: A WS-R is a pair of a web service and a resource which it gives access to.
10:32:50 [timbl]
[missed about garbage collection of resources]
10:33:36 [timbl]
DS: Its type includes its web service type, but also includes the schema for the document
10:33:59 [timbl]
TBL: A general MXL document or a very stylized document?
10:34:17 [timbl]
DS: That changed last week - now it is general Xml document
10:34:47 [timbl]
DC: Why did it change
10:35:36 [timbl]
NM: What was the old way? I thought it was a clearly a set of properties, which allowed me to select a subset of properties. It used to be a property list model.
10:35:57 [DanC_EDI]
(boy, if they had a property list model, I wonder if they considered RDF/XML)
10:36:02 [timbl]
DS: Yes, we had a notion of qname-names properties, though they may or may not have existed as a real XML file.
10:37:30 [timbl]
... It turned out historically, that initally the only way to access this was to query across properties if the document was arbitrary XML, but there has been a request to add a capability to put and get eth whole resource prperty document. Now that we have that capability, then you can use it for an arbitrary document. Property lists are a special case.
10:37:44 [timbl]
... the query now allows you to ask for properties, and/or random XML
10:38:32 [timbl]
.... A query in a query dialect (we require XPath support) where the query dialect is defined by a URI
10:39:58 [timbl]
DS: Sldie: Ws-Resource Intertaction
10:43:52 [timbl]
DS: I could have 2 bank accounts behind the same service, and the End Point Reference may have more info to distinguish the accounts.
10:44:26 [timbl]
DS: A common use though is for the extra information to be encoded in the URI, such as in the ?query string at the end of the path.
10:44:49 [timbl]
NM: We ahve been less happy with people using stuff outside the URI.
10:45:30 [timbl]
MN: I have not been happy with the discussions we have had with the WS-Addreessing
10:45:57 [timbl]
DS: I felt that it used to be that ref params are much softer, not really identification.
10:46:31 [timbl]
DS: Now we have a single package and we know that all the iD is in there.
10:47:25 [timbl]
... but not all the EPR may be used for ID -- as a function of the EPR minter, the ref parameters may have things like quality of service, etc.
10:47:47 [timbl]
... The message as a whole is interpreted by the web service.....
10:49:04 [timbl]
.... At Fujitsu lab we use ref params to distinguish. I don't think we should. I think Globus does not - they put everything in the URI. I think IBM does dispatch on the ref params at the moment
10:49:08 [timbl]
Noah: yes
10:49:33 [timbl]
DS: Fuj's trouble with just using URIs was [missed]
10:50:39 [timbl]
Noah: Why would anyone want an EPR (except for acrrying metadta which we are or talking about) ? It was to be able to use qnames -- these are difficult to use in URI's as there snot space to put ful URIs
10:51:07 [timbl]
DO: yes
10:51:12 [DanC_EDI]
( dorchard, when you write something in our blog that's relevant to a TAG issue, I'd like you to mail www-archive a pointer with the issue name/number in the subject.)
10:51:31 [timbl]
DO: I blogged on that
10:52:44 [ht]
q+ to talk about small names for params vs. qnames
10:53:38 [DanC_EDI]
(I'm also interested in having some blog stuff make its way to www-archive automatically or something. but there are copyright issues)
10:54:18 [noah]
what we want is something like:
10:54:42 [dorchard]
Here's the blog entry on qnames and uris: http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2004/04/29/binding_qnames_to_uris
10:55:29 [noah]
http://example.org/noahsdiskdrivefarm?http://drivevendor/driveid=5+http://calendarstandardsorg.org/date=today
10:55:34 [timbl]
TBL: There is an argument which says that the extensability of qnames was invented for languages like XML and RDF and query languages for them.
10:57:14 [timbl]
[discussion of opacity]
10:57:58 [noah]
I think opacity is as seen by users...in this case, one of the reasons for this structure is for benefit of the resource owner.
10:58:10 [timbl]
DS: If using a URI to identify a resource, we are OK so long as the minter mainatins the notion of opacity ... why do I have to presve qnames in there? I can have a local hash table
10:58:14 [timbl]
tbl: yes
10:58:25 [timbl]
DO: Yes but you are doing client-side queries
10:58:48 [noah]
Resource owners may be able to dispatch handling and associate behavior with pieces of the URI, and the whole thing may still be largely opaque to the user, or at least as opaque as traditional short parm names.
10:58:58 [ht]
HST records his understanding that the opacity property was applicable primarily to the unparameterised URI, not the bit after the ?, which seems by nature much less opaque. . .
11:00:08 [DanC_EDI]
TBL: [something about WSDL and prefixes]. DO: yes, let's do that
11:00:08 [noah]
Noah records that he thought opacity as seen by "user" is as much or as little as the resource owner says. I thought what we've said is that (a) in general URIs are opaque except insofar as pertinent specs talk about things like hierarchy and (b) even in cases where substructure is documented, you should try hard not to depend on it.
11:00:11 [Norm]
Dave/TimBL think that declaring the prefixes associated with URIs in the WSDL would be a good idea
11:00:24 [dorchard]
TimBL and Dave are interested in option #16, which has just the prefix in the URI.
11:00:47 [DanC_EDI]
option #16 among what?
11:00:57 [dorchard]
the blog that I posted on qnames/uris
11:01:20 [Norm]
This allows them to be opaque to the user, but the WSDL can still inform minters how to do it
11:01:41 [DanC_EDI]
"16. Query and non-lexical variant 4 with no ns decl" in http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2004/04/29/binding_qnames_to_uris
11:02:00 [timbl]
TBL: MAybe if you really feel you have to tell a client to exprerss the semantics of a bit of XML ro RDF in the query part, then the WSDL could contain a set of default namespace prefixes which are expected in the client part of the URL.
11:02:15 [timbl]
DO: Yes. I definitely agree to that
11:02:17 [Norm]
dorchard: The guy building the web service knows what schemes he can understand so it's not a problem that this scheme doesn't allow arbitrary extensibility
11:03:16 [timbl]
Noah: The URIs are then not quite opaque in the way we discussed, because the resourec owner has allowed the client to understand it
11:03:49 [noah]
Noah points out that WSDL should be positioned as only one of the ways of documenting the association between short names and URIs.
11:04:23 [timbl]
DS: I don't personally have a lot of use cases where you have to go beyond the URI.
11:05:23 [timbl]
... There was (in OGSA time) a persistent handle GSH unique for all time handle with a resolver which went to a GSR.
11:06:03 [timbl]
... GSH have the property that they are never reused. The GSR could be reused. That architecture has been dropped.
11:09:21 [timbl]
DS: if you are using a URI as a referener to the WS resource, then when you mint it if you used HTTP... then the web service tooling which decides on the text of a URI whcih can be accessed over the net....
11:12:05 [timbl]
... Example: http://fujits.com/atlum#abadeafa where atrim is the web service and the abadeafa
11:12:36 [timbl]
Tim: So teh web srvice port is http://fujits.com/atlum and the soap message contains all of http://fujits.com/atlum#abadeafa
11:12:40 [timbl]
DS: yes
11:12:54 [timbl]
DS: ... the EPR was designed to carry this
11:13:20 [timbl]
DS: This worked pre- Ws-Addressing
11:13:24 [dorchard]
I mentioned at the June f2f in cambridge about needing a uri query language, http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/06/14-16-minutes.html
11:13:28 [DanC_EDI]
(zooming up, mentally... we seem to be having an interesting discussion of some web services specs, but I expected to get an answer to "what is the Grid" and I don't recall getting one. hmm.)
11:14:08 [timbl]
S: The question was ... couldyou guarantee that you would get the details of what is on the end, but now with EPR you do
11:14:16 [timbl]
s/S/DS
11:15:04 [DanC_EDI]
(what is OGSA? I remember seeing a sort of forward pointer... )
11:16:11 [DanC_EDI]
(for "OGSA grid services" google nominates http://www.globus.org/ogsa/ )
11:16:36 [timbl]
DS: You can also use a/ instead of # but then some people had a problem with the feeling that you ended up with a web service for each resource,
11:16:59 [timbl]
DO: Because of the way their software was written
11:17:04 [Norm]
OGSA=Open Grid Services Architecture
11:17:45 [DanC_EDI]
(is OGSA an organization on which there is consensus on, for example, when it started?)
11:18:44 [timbl]
DS: In EPR form this would look like
11:19:46 [timbl]
... <Address>http://fuj.com/arun/</address> <disambiguator> abadeafa</>
11:20:25 [DanC_EDI]
q+ to ask some non-technical questions. is the Globus Toolkit ubiquitously used? who are the vendors and what products are in this space? and are enterprises and academics the main users?
11:20:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
11:20:37 [DanC_EDI]
q+ to ask some non-technical questions. is the Globus Toolkit ubiquitously used? who are the vendors and what products are in this space? and are enterprises and academics the main users?
11:21:10 [DanC_EDI]
Zakim, remind us in 35 minutes that lunch is at 1pm
11:21:11 [Zakim]
ok, DanC_EDI
11:21:15 [dorchard]
actually, it is *roughly* <To>http://fujl.com/arun/</To><disambiguator isReferenceParameter="true">abadeafa</disambiguator>
11:21:31 [timbl]
tx
11:21:48 [timbl]
DS: Slide: OGSA Specifications
11:22:02 [dorchard]
Specifically, the <address> field in the EPR can be used in various ways, and isn't sent as a soap header named <address>
11:22:11 [DanC_EDI]
DaveS: ... OGSA WG ...
11:25:41 [DanC_EDI]
(taking a random walk over OGSA WG stuff... they seem to use gridforge, which allows group members to upload... ugh... .doc files)
11:28:52 [DanC_EDI]
(interesting... Screen share service (glance.net) http://www-unix.gridforum.org/mail_archive/ogsa-wg/2004/06/msg00077.html )
11:29:13 [timbl]
DS: Slide: Toward OGSA resources
11:32:04 [RalphS]
RalphS has joined #tagmem
11:33:56 [Zakim]
rebooting a machine, bot available in 8 mins
11:33:58 [RalphS]
RalphS has left #tagmem
11:34:04 [DanC_EDI]
(teleconference minutes in .pdf http://www-unix.gridforum.org/mail_archive/ogsa-wg/2005/09/msg00033.html ... hmm... must be diagrams and such... phpht. nope. just headings, paragraphs, and lists.)
11:34:57 [timbl]
DO: You get protocol independence from using WS-Adrressing ... you may want to use soap.jml: scheme.. froma hsitroical persopecive, if the soap to http binding whuich ould do thinsg with rfef params then they could have used it,
11:37:08 [DanC_EDI]
(... "OGSI days"... did I tune out of a history discussion?)
11:40:32 [timbl]
DS: A service may be defined in an EPR in teh OGSA architecture which you can call if the main address breaks to get a new equiavalent address in the future.
11:43:58 [timbl]
TBL: Why not allocate a domain name for the service?
11:44:04 [timbl]
DO: Granularity too low
11:45:49 [DanC_EDI]
(I thought it was also about who owns the "job" vs who owns the computer where the job is running)
11:45:52 [noah]
Noah also suggested that there is a hosting relationship: the same application may one at one hosting domain for awhile, then move to another. Tying the URI's used in the app to DNS names owned by a given hosting site may be artificial.
11:47:28 [Vincent]
Roy joins
11:49:22 [timbl]
DC: If when I set up a web servcie on a provider, I quoted my domain name, ad then all te names were allocated by the servcie in that space, then life woudl work better.
11:50:19 [timbl]
[discussion of single points of failure and names and addresses etc]
11:50:30 [DanC_EDI]
hmm... as IETF liaison, I'm obliged to keep an eye out when people are using W3C specs to re-invent DNS. hmm.
11:52:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
11:55:25 [timbl]
Tim: People often deplore the "single point of failure" in a DNS to HTTP redirect but then to get something more reliable they implement a atscak of DNS lookups and HTTP and SOAP access
11:57:09 [timbl]
DS: Well, we felt DNS was unreliable, so we built a fallback lookup system
11:57:15 [timbl]
TBL: Which uses DNS?
11:57:21 [timbl]
DS: Yes:)
11:59:11 [timbl]
DO: Sounds like the XRI example for reasons for wanting to move things around. We never responded to the XRI folkd wanting to move things about how they should do it in HTTP
12:00:12 [timbl]
DS: OGSA are looking to have unique names, such that two names will never be allocated to the same thing.
12:00:46 [DanC_EDI]
(hmm.... owl:differentFrom expresses ?X != ?Y ... maybe OGSA naming stuff could use that?)
12:01:14 [timbl]
Noah: Why of that a characteristic of the name rather than the deployment of the name? For exmaple in noah-mendelsohn.org I coul dcontrol it so that this is the case.
12:01:29 [timbl]
Norm: This is a social problem
12:01:44 [timbl]
Dc: It could be solved by for example using money as a fine for reeuse.
12:03:15 [timbl]
DS: They are looking at the social aspects but there are many different naming schemes. For example, http:/./handle.net/ but they don't like that because you have to pay for it, They want persistent names for free
12:03:25 [timbl]
[general cynicism]
12:03:39 [timbl]
DS: Slide: Observations
12:10:05 [timbl]
Tim: Do you mean IR not resource? yes
13:05:13 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
13:05:16 [DanC_lap]
DanC_lap has joined #tagmem
13:07:17 [Noah_Edinburgh]
Noah_Edinburgh has joined #tagmem
13:08:56 [noah]
Meeting: Minutes of Tag F2F Afternoon of 20 Sept. 2005
13:09:03 [noah]
scribe: Noah Mendelsohn
13:09:10 [noah]
scribenick: noah
13:11:53 [timbl]
RRSAgent, pointer?
13:11:53 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-tagmem-irc#T13-11-53
13:11:56 [timbl]
tx
13:16:35 [ht]
Conf. phone number is +44 131 651 1950
13:25:38 [noah]
Topic: New Directions for the Tag
13:25:50 [noah]
See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2005Jun/att-0010/tag-directions.html
13:26:03 [Roy]
Roy has joined #tagmem
13:26:08 [noah]
VQ: Note resolution of httpRange-14
13:26:40 [noah]
VQ: Note that Dan has offered some preliminary materials relating to educational materials.
13:27:45 [Roy]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/em27.html
13:27:49 [noah]
DC: Was going to give talk, oft postponed.
13:28:44 [noah]
DC: Not much is happening lately.
13:29:05 [dorchard]
dorchard has joined #tagmem
13:29:26 [noah]
DC: The talk will be at Park University, near Kansas City (http://www.park.edu). Contributions of slides would be welcome.
13:29:46 [noah]
VQ: Idea was to put up materials on the web for use by others.
13:30:40 [noah]
NM: Suggest Henry discuss at AC meeting in Montreal, to solicit contributions, offer what we have, ask for guidance on where to invest.
13:31:11 [noah]
NM: An acquaintance of mine wound up up spending 3 weeks teaching Web Arch
13:31:58 [noah]
VQ: httpRange14 is done?
13:32:04 [noah]
TBL: Did Noah try to reopen it?
13:32:14 [noah]
NM: Well, was trying to reopen it.
13:32:48 [noah]
HT: I'm still trying to figure out use of fragids and non-info resources (I.e. once you expect to give a 302)
13:33:19 [noah]
DC: I'd put that with fratmentInXml-28
13:33:42 [DanC_lap]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#fragmentInXML-28 issue fragmentInXML-28
13:34:51 [ht]
NM: Is a namespace an information resource? Well, maybe. It's not like my dog, which clearly isn't, but it's not like they NYT of 12 July, which clearly is, either
13:35:30 [ht]
... Have we dug a hole here, it's not right to return 200 from a namespace URI, but others seem OK with that
13:36:23 [noah]
NM: So to be clear, I think I'm fine saying Namespaces are info resources, at least to the extent that the owner of the namespace claims there's nothing about it that isn't conveyable in a message.
13:36:33 [noah]
VQ: Next sub-topic is web applications
13:36:41 [noah]
VQ: is there anything else we should do.
13:37:53 [ht]
NM: Concerns in this area -- new technologies, e.g. Avalon, Flash, leading to content standards which we (the TAG) would think of as being on the web.
13:39:00 [ht]
Some of what they're doing isn't relevant, e.g. replacing Excel, but other stuff is, and a) what W3C does with WebApp should be competitive in some sense with what's happening in the pure commercial sphere
13:39:27 [ht]
... Competitive doesn't necessarily mean as good, but good enough that the network effect boost brings it in to contention
13:40:29 [ht]
... b) Some of this stuff will be retrievable/retrieved by http in the normal course of events, but the formats may not be standards-based, or even understandable at all to non-proprietary tools
13:41:01 [ht]
... c) Principle of least power is involved, as some of these, e.g. Flash, are less declarative than they should be
13:41:41 [ht]
... So on both of the fronts I think the TAG should work on, namely preserving what we have, and moving in good new directions, we should be paying attention to this
13:42:07 [ht]
VQ: So you should do a report on the MS Dev conference
13:42:15 [ht]
TBL: And then what should we do about it
13:42:42 [ht]
... Produce a competitive standards-based 'product'?
13:43:48 [ht]
NM: Well, W3C is already setting out to do that, right? All we do in situations like that is to keep an eye on things, and monitor from the outside the extent to which they're likely to succeed.
13:44:09 [ht]
... In this case, that means tracking the commercial competition very closely, tooling and formats
13:44:49 [noah]
NM: Suggest it might be interesting to have the Rich Application workgroup look at things like what Microsoft's building in Avalon.
13:45:02 [noah]
Lots of resources, for example: http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/default.aspx?pull=/library/en-us/dnlong/html/fluid.asp
13:45:04 [noah]
noah has left #tagmem
13:46:23 [ht]
Vista is new name for Longhorn
14:00:35 [DanC_lap]
NM: XAML is acutally a pickling format, not necessarily tied to graphic stuff
14:06:58 [DanC_lap]
q+
14:08:39 [DanC_lap]
(1) realism about entertainment and standards...
14:08:43 [DanC_lap]
(2) AC someting
14:09:23 [Vincent]
ack Danc_lap
14:10:12 [timbl]
q+ re relation of markup and APIs and webapps
14:10:19 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
14:10:27 [timbl]
q+ to relation of markup and APIs and webapps
14:11:32 [noah]
DC: Someone?? years ago mentioned to me that there were 3 areas we should worry about a) info exchange b) commerce c) games, entertainment, media
14:12:20 [noah]
RF: Sony PSP firmware update gives you a really good mobile web browser.
14:12:43 [noah]
DC: W3C should take some realistic position about this space. SVG and Flash is pertinent.
14:12:58 [noah]
DC: Flash is very widely deployed...is dominant computing platform
14:13:02 [noah]
VQ: On phones?
14:13:10 [noah]
DC: I think there are more flash than phones.
14:13:19 [noah]
VQ: almost every new phone is SVG enabled, not phone.
14:14:43 [noah]
DC: still, I think we do best when we do standardization after things sort of gel. Not ahead.
14:15:39 [noah]
HT: we have taken a huge hit as well as rendering an important service by getting out ahead of vendors on XML Schema. Hard to tell whether that one was a good call.
14:16:36 [noah]
HT: still, history suggests we do better job when we do the 2nd version of a technology a bit later
14:17:31 [noah]
DC: so, my starting position is that I'm not 100% sure working in the rich client space is pertinent for us, but I'm glad to support the membership given that they feel now is the time to invest resources.
14:19:03 [DanC_lap]
that's a politically correct adaptation of what I said, which was: starting out, I thought there's no way W3C could produce something relevant in the rich apps space. But I gather the relevant members have heard my arguments and think W3C can be relevant, so away we go
14:19:27 [noah]
TBL: We've tended to talk more about formats than how to write software. Maybe the CDF space is different.
14:19:39 [noah]
TBL: maybe we should get into that space more.
14:25:25 [noah]
NM: Yes, but I also think it's important that the bits of markup stand on their own and be as declarative as possible.
14:29:25 [noah]
Gen'l: is there a role for the TAG here?
14:29:50 [noah]
RF: maybe we should look at SVG & SMIL and see where it stands?
14:30:03 [noah]
NM: to what extent should we do it vs. Rich Web App stuff.
14:30:33 [noah]
RF: I.e. we should try to learn why things like SVG have not had more traction to date. Find out whether it's a technical issue.
14:30:45 [noah]
DC: but it's all about timing. We can't rewrite history.
14:31:58 [noah]
NM: should I take an action to ask Dean Jackson what they're doing in terms of tracking external developments in the Rich App space.
14:32:13 [noah]
DC: well, I sort of did that.
14:32:56 [noah]
DC: Yes, Dean has looked at things like Avalon vs. SVG in some details. I believe the proposal for the Rich App group accounts for building something realistic.
14:34:06 [ht]
Restaurants: http://www.theverandah.co.uk/verandah.htm, http://www.tower-restaurant.com/info2.html
14:34:38 [noah]
VQ: end of discussion of Rich apps.
14:43:35 [Roy]
http://www.tower-restaurant.com/pudding_menu.html
15:09:50 [DanC_lap]
DanC_lap has joined #tagmem
15:10:40 [timbl]
__________________________________________
15:16:27 [noah]
Topic: Web Authentication
15:17:06 [noah]
DC: I had action, not yet linkable, but I'll just give you this update here.
15:17:47 [noah]
DC: In the web, authentication is orthogonal to naming. You can always safely give out names. Access may or may not succeed.
15:18:56 [noah]
DC: Basic authentication design error. In the same number of round trips we could have done challenge/response, but instead of sending password in the clear.
15:19:14 [noah]
DC: Digest authenticatoin addresses this with digest-based challenge response.
15:19:59 [noah]
DC: server sends you some large pseudo-random number, that you hash with your passord, in a way that the server can check.
15:22:57 [noah]
DC: Kerberos style authentication is 3rd party. Avoids n by m key sharing between services and clients.
15:23:08 [noah]
DC: digest authentication
15:23:12 [noah]
RF: WebDav does
15:23:16 [noah]
DC: anyone use that?
15:23:24 [noah]
HT: Yes, iCal.
15:24:06 [noah]
DC: When server supplies 401 insufficient credentials, you get a dialog that asks for user and passord.
15:24:12 [noah]
s/passord/password/
15:24:28 [noah]
HT: doesn't support "only give me a few characters"
15:24:50 [noah]
HT: they ask for 1st, 4th chars of my password.
15:26:07 [DanC_lap]
NM: at the recent Microsoft conference, I saw they're working on a big new UI for managing credentials
15:26:39 [DanC_lap]
(missing SSL slide)
15:26:40 [noah]
DC: providers use forms with <input type="password">. Cheaper to buy website, but weak due to password in clear, unless using SSL/HTTPS
15:26:59 [noah]
NW: takeaways...SSL is expensive to get and expensive to run
15:27:15 [noah]
DC: right. It's overkill for just keeping passwords out of cleartext.
15:27:31 [noah]
DC: users put off by entering user name and password in any case
15:28:40 [noah]
DC: claim 90% of users give up when asked for authentication
15:28:48 [noah]
HT: would be interested to know whether anyone has done a server to validate that intuition
15:29:30 [noah]
DC: claim only few big services get to do this
15:32:53 [noah]
DC: I would like to get it to the point to which it's "criminal" to entice people to send passwords in the clear.
15:35:02 [noah]
DC: so, I want to make the alternative more practical
15:35:52 [DanC_lap]
http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/NOTE-authentform-19990203
15:37:10 [noah]
DC: the submission at http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/NOTE-authentform-19990203 says that we should use digest authentication at the place where password prompters give "*****", and a logout button.
15:37:17 [noah]
TBL: we is this in XForms?
15:37:25 [noah]
DC: Because you need new markup to support it.
15:38:17 [noah]
TBL: does logout just delete cookies?
15:38:38 [noah]
DC: there is a setting on Firefox that says no cross-site cookies. Has good uses for obscure cases.
15:40:58 [noah]
DC: It would be nice to have signed web pages, not just secured connections.
15:43:50 [noah]
DC: I want this in part for non-repudiation: you can prove I sent you this page.
15:44:17 [noah]
NM: yes, but be a little careful. You really have to design this stuff to solve real world problems:
15:44:43 [noah]
NM: first of all, you often want to sign just a part of a page or form, e.g. the contract itself, but not the chrome around it.
15:45:37 [noah]
NM: secondly, if there as an XSLT or other form mechanism separate from the content, you need to sign not just the piece parts, but the combination, as well as some indication of how they were composed to make the page you saw.
15:45:50 [noah]
DC: ...{scribe got a bit behind}...
15:46:17 [noah]
DC: some stuff about livejournal {?scribe?} anti-spam stuff
15:47:02 [noah]
>> Dan will paste link to technical details here before minutes are public <<
15:57:59 [noah]
DC: so, that's my review of state of the art
15:59:24 [noah]
DC: a number of cool things. I could keep my identity in the open id space while switching authenticators.
16:00:07 [noah]
TBL: can we use this for email? SMTP explain might return someone's openid/
16:00:31 [noah]
DC: you could encourage everyone who runs an SMTP server to also have web server exporting open-id pages.
16:00:57 [noah]
TBL: yes, but then you have to map email addresses to HTTP URIs
16:01:12 [noah]
DC: interestingly, they already let you elide the http://www part of a URI.
16:01:37 [noah]
DC: note that there is a growing set of communities that don't use email as heavily as we do. They use IM, etc.
16:04:32 [noah]
VQ: Thank you Dan, for the update on your action.
16:04:46 [noah]
VQ: is there anything else we should do regarding security?
16:06:30 [noah]
DO: I've written up several examples, exploring the different ways state is managed in Web apps. The example I chose was security. Maybe Dan and I should coordinate.
16:06:47 [noah]
DC: Please send a pointer. Sounds interesting.
16:07:14 [noah]
DO: Is that an interesting example? Relating stateful and stateless models? Hmm. I guess you'd have to see it to decide.
16:07:36 [noah]
DC: Please send it.
16:08:13 [noah]
ACTION: Dan to review materials on stateful application models to be sent by Dave Orchard. Relate to authentication work.
16:08:29 [noah]
DC: I'd still like to promote open id.
16:08:44 [noah]
DC: I also think the Paul Leach's work (see link above) is still pertinent.
16:09:06 [DanC_lap]
ACTION DanC: turn "state of the art in auth" slides into draft finding
16:09:38 [DanC_lap]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/09dc-edi/web-auth.html state of the art in auth slides
16:10:24 [timbl]
Morning draft^3 minutes: 2-tagmem-irc-minutes.html
16:10:54 [noah]
Meeting is adjourned.
16:10:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
16:20:30 [DanC_lap]
DanC_lap has joined #tagmem