IRC log of tagmem on 2005-09-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:56:43 [RRSAgent]
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16:56:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:56:49 [Norm]
zakim, this is tag
16:56:49 [Zakim]
Norm, I see TAG_Weekly()12:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be tag".
16:56:53 [Norm]
zakim, this will be tag
16:56:53 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see TAG_Weekly()12:30PM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago
16:57:49 [noah]
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17:00:34 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started
17:00:41 [Zakim]
17:00:45 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:00:45 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:00:46 [Zakim]
17:00:59 [Vincent]
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17:01:01 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: TAG 6 Jun. scribe: Roy
17:01:50 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
17:01:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Ht
17:01:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Vincent, noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roy, ht, Norm, ht_gone_to_work, DanC
17:02:01 [Zakim]
17:02:11 [noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
17:02:13 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
17:02:20 [Ed]
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17:02:44 [Zakim]
17:02:46 [Zakim]
17:02:46 [Zakim]
17:02:56 [Zakim]
17:03:07 [Vincent]
Zakim, Tayeb/JeffB is Vincent
17:03:07 [Zakim]
+Vincent; got it
17:03:11 [Zakim]
17:03:11 [Norm]
zakim, ??P1 is Ed
17:03:11 [Zakim]
+Ed; got it
17:03:13 [Zakim]
17:03:13 [Zakim]
17:03:15 [Norm]
zakim, who's here
17:03:15 [Zakim]
Norm, you need to end that query with '?'
17:03:18 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
17:03:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Ht, noah, Vincent, Ed, Roy
17:03:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Ed, Vincent, noah, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roy, ht, Norm, ht_gone_to_work, DanC
17:03:22 [dorchard]
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17:03:41 [Zakim]
17:04:09 [Roy]
ScribeNick: Roy
17:04:24 [Roy]
Scribe: Roy Fielding
17:04:45 [Zakim]
17:05:50 [Roy]
Regrets for Sep 13: Noah
17:06:09 [Roy]
... Henry, Tim
17:07:11 [Roy]
17:08:35 [Roy]
Plan for next week is discussion of GRID. Experts have been invited but we have not heard back yet.
17:09:07 [Roy]
17:10:09 [Roy]
VQ: should we still schedule discussion for next week if we only have one person from GRID?
17:10:34 [Roy]
NW: yes
17:10:55 [Roy]
Ed: yes
17:11:33 [Roy]
NM: propose we take one round of discussion to get oriented and then perhaps take it further during the f2f
17:12:10 [Roy]
NW: will find out about other experts and send info to Vincent
17:12:41 [Roy]
17:12:46 [Roy]
no objections
17:12:55 [DanC]
-> 30 Aug minutes
17:13:30 [Roy]
ACTION Minutes of last meeting 30 Aug approved
17:14:12 [Roy]
Topic: Agenda for Edinburgh f2f
17:14:55 [Roy]
VQ: have made a pass through the issues list to prepare for a f2f agenda
17:15:12 [Ed_]
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17:15:23 [DanC]
ah... good... is now marked "agreed"
17:15:34 [Roy]
VQ: rough draft so far (where?)
17:16:19 [Roy]
VQ: I would like to make progress on several of the open issues, try to close them, and make progress where possible
17:16:49 [Roy]
VQ: I would also like to see some setting of priorities for the TAG
17:17:01 [Roy]
DC: okay
17:17:11 [Roy]
NW: that would be good
17:17:43 [Roy]
VQ: Henry, are there constraints on the schedule at F2F?
17:18:00 [Roy]
HT: No, we can go til midnight is desired.
17:18:36 [Zakim]
17:18:43 [Roy]
HT: dinner on Tuesday should be at 7:30 pm, time not yet confirmed
17:18:47 [DanC]
(let's see... europe is that funny place where I wake up at 3 or 4am, right? so I'm happy to start earlier than 9am... much earlier... and by 5pm, you'll be lucky to communicate with my conscious self.)
17:19:47 [Roy]
HT: do people have a preference for organizing a group meal on Wed or Thurs?
17:20:04 [Roy]
[all] Wed is better
17:21:11 [Roy]
VQ: anything else about the logistics?
17:22:20 [Ed_]
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17:22:25 [dorchard]
this is all online right Henry?
17:22:34 [Roy]
HT: location is three-story row house with lots of doors. I will stand out on the sidewalk from 8:30 to 9 or so to let people in. If you are late, enter door 2, go upstairs one level, ...
17:23:22 [DanC]
it seems to be covered at
17:23:37 [ht]
... ring bell marked "HCRC", secretary will let you in and take you to the meeting
17:23:40 [Roy]
Topic: Proposed errata for webarch
17:23:51 [ht]
or call my cell phone: +44 7866 471 388
17:24:04 [Roy]
17:24:19 [Ed__]
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17:25:12 [Roy]
NW: first entry is from Chris, suggests that we add an editorial correction and that looks fine to me
17:25:26 [Roy]
NW: anyone disagree (silence)
17:25:51 [DanC]
"Interpretation of prose in 3.3"
17:25:58 [DanC]
^that's a pretty good name, for these minutes
17:26:14 [Roy]
RESOLVED that TAG agrees to CL errata 1, Interpretation of prose in 3.3
17:26:28 [Roy]
RESOLVED: TAG agrees to CL errata 1, Interpretation of prose in 3.3
17:27:00 [Roy]
Second errata is from Roy to update references to URI and IRI
17:27:27 [Roy]
RESOLVED: TAG agrees to RF errata for URI and IRI references
17:27:47 [Roy]
ACTION: NW to include items 1 and 2 in webarch errata
17:28:45 [Roy]
Topic: Interpretation of prose in 3.3
17:28:58 [Roy]
Topic: URNsAndRegistries-50
17:29:33 [Roy]
HT: document is not ready yet and unlikely to be able to spend more time on it before f2f
17:29:49 [Roy]
VQ: should we spend time on it during f2f?
17:30:04 [Roy]
HT: probably not
17:30:27 [Roy]
DC: this topic doesn't seem to be urgent at this point
17:31:02 [Roy]
17:31:19 [Norm]
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17:31:41 [ht]
Noah is talking about namespaceDocument-8
17:32:35 [Roy]
NM: there is concern about use of namespace names and http, may be worth f2f time
17:32:56 [Roy]
VQ: that is on the f2f agenda under namespaceDocument-8
17:34:25 [Roy]
DC: IETF stated practice currently is to use URNs for namespace names, for example in geopriv (geo privacy) specs.
17:35:31 [Roy]
DC: IETF using XML in various ways and recommending use of URNs, so there is some need to recommend dereferenceable identifiers instead
17:35:54 [dorchard]
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17:36:31 [Roy]
Topic: standardizedFieldValues-51
17:36:53 [Roy]
17:37:24 [Roy]
VQ: we have not done work on this since it was announced. does it make sense to discuss it at f2f?
17:39:18 [Roy]
DC: people working on protocols/formats tend to start with short names and then later encounter name collision
17:39:50 [Roy]
Roy: I suggest that DC take an action to write something up ;-)
17:40:02 [Roy]
DC: I could do that
17:40:19 [Roy]
NM: that would be valuable to me to get a handle on the issue
17:40:42 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: write an update on issue 51 and microformats
17:41:56 [Roy]
Roy: I agree with Dan's summary of the issue
17:42:33 [DanC]
17:42:39 [Norm]
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17:42:47 [DanC]
-> [ACTION] Send link to proposal for "Compact URI Syntax"
17:45:06 [Roy]
Topic: Reviewing a few pending actions
17:45:29 [DanC]
(I just sent mail about namespaceDocument-8, if we want to add that today's agenda)
17:45:36 [Roy]
17:45:48 [Roy]
VQ: any progress?
17:46:04 [Roy]
NW: no progress to report, we need to figure out who has the ball
17:46:13 [DanC]
q+ to ask who has the ball on c14n
17:46:28 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:46:28 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask who has the ball on c14n
17:47:11 [DanC]
HT: XML Core
17:47:12 [Roy]
NW: I will try to write something up for f2f
17:47:50 [Roy]
ACTION: Norm to provide something written for namespaceState for f2f
17:48:09 [Norm]
17:48:09 [noah]
David Orchard to contextualize his scenarios, such as more on what is happening with SOAP and WSDL. [recorded in Minutes of the W3C XML Schema Working Group 4th (37th) F2F meeting]
17:48:33 [Roy]
that document is not public
17:49:22 [Roy]
[TP5-8: David Orchard to contextualize his scenarios, such as more on what is happening with SOAP and WSDL.]
17:50:36 [Roy]
DO: I have made significant progress on that action, should be resolved within a week or so
17:50:54 [Roy]
VQ: let us know when we should review something in the TAG
17:51:09 [Roy]
VQ: any more items to discuss?
17:51:16 [Roy]
DC: I sent email ...
17:51:24 [DanC]
-> ns8 stuff
17:52:42 [Norm]
17:52:57 [Roy]
DC: last week we talked about ns8... afterwords, I remembered that if you take the whole URI and dereference (like a machine), what comes back does not have an id attribute that can be used to ground anchors
17:53:10 [Roy]
DC: in schema
17:54:38 [Roy]
DC: staightforward solution is to place anchor ids in the namespace document such that they are identifiable in the dereferenced resource
17:54:56 [Roy]
17:57:32 [Roy]
NM: has assumed that people would want to use RDDL as a form of indirection. Perhaps if RDDL had its own media type then it could define its own mechanism for indirect definition of anchors
17:58:00 [Norm]
17:58:07 [Norm]
zakim, ack
17:58:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ack', Norm
17:58:11 [Norm]
ack norm
18:00:23 [Roy]
HT: with a namespace described by multiple schemas, one must acknowledge that there will be different names defined by different schemas, and therefore the namespace document needs to act as a union of names in a complex namespace [scribe interprtation]
18:00:56 [Roy]
[change that to schema documents, not schemas]
18:02:28 [DanC]
ACTION HT: track progress of #int in the XML Schema namespace document in the XML Schema WG
18:03:37 [Roy]
HT: in settling httpRange-14, we talked a great deal about regular URIs but not as much about URIs with fragment
18:05:04 [Roy]
NW: when we introduced "information resource", our definition distinguished between obvious things but left unclear whether a namespace falls under the category of "information resource" or not
18:05:12 [Roy]
18:06:06 [Roy]
DC: if it returns 200, then you have answered the question
18:06:55 [Roy]
DC: whether a namespace resource is an information resource or not is up to the namespace creator.
18:09:12 [Zakim]
18:09:13 [Zakim]
18:09:14 [Zakim]
18:09:17 [Zakim]
18:09:19 [Zakim]
18:10:36 [ht]
The relevant Bugzilla entry for the Schema WG is 1974, so URL is
18:10:41 [Roy]
NM: so, summary would be that it is okay for a namespace name to be an information resource provided that the URI is used consistently
18:12:01 [Zakim]
18:12:25 [Zakim]
18:12:26 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
18:12:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, Ht, noah, DanC, Vincent, Ed, Roy, DOrchard
18:13:11 [Roy]
rrsagent, pointer?
18:13:11 [RRSAgent]
18:13:30 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
18:13:46 [Roy]
18:20:32 [ht]
DanC, you there?
18:20:46 [DanC]
who, me? no. surely not. ;-)
18:21:02 [ht]
I'm struggling here, if there's a quick answer let me have it. . .
18:21:22 [ht]
Trying to convert old RDFS to OWL
18:21:32 [ht]
No joy finding tools to do this
18:21:53 [DanC]
convert in what sense? in some sense, it already is OWL. meanwhile...
18:21:55 [ht]
After much hacking finally got Portege to import the RDFS, but exporting it as OWL is very lossy. . .
18:22:41 [DanC]
my work on infoset-in-OWL is . it predates OWL, though; it uses what was called DAML+OIL at the time
18:22:46 [ht]
Convert as in produce owl:Class where it used to have rdfs:class, and so on
18:23:37 [DanC]
I think there isn't a quick answer.
18:23:41 [ht]
OK, thanks
18:23:58 [DanC]
it's reasonably straightforward to do with cwm and N3 rules.
18:24:13 [DanC]
or XSLT, for that matter
18:25:01 [DanC]
I never did write up 2000/10/swap/infoset , but I'm pretty happ with this UML-ish diagram:
18:26:01 [ht]
I'll have a look -- I guess I think it would be good to update at some point . . .
18:26:28 [DanC]
hey, that would be cool.
18:27:29 [DanC]
the main file in swap/infoset is , which is a hand-transcription of the infoset spec into DAML (which is pretty close to OWL).
18:28:39 [DanC]
infoset-daml.n3 is the sort of thing that one should be able to model with protege (or swoop) straightforwardly, I think.
18:29:08 [ht]
OK, thanks, I'll have a look. . .
18:29:14 [ht]
Not today :-(
20:10:00 [Zakim]
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20:57:09 [Norm]
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