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EOWG 26 August 2005 Minutes




Bingham, Jack, Justin_Thorp, Shadi, Judy, Shawn, Henk, Wayne, Barry, Sylvie_Duchateau\Tanguy_Lohéac, Johanna, Doyle_Saylor, Alan, Helle_Bjarno, +44.122.586.aaaa, Liam
Roberto, Andrew, Emma_Jane, Ron, William, Pasqaule, Sailesh

Judy: Johanna is joining to participate in the Eval Resource Suite

Outreach Updates

Henk: I went to the ICVI conference 2 weeks ago. I presented the WAI work for 50 or 60 people. There was some interest in joining the groups.

<judy> ICVI = International Conference for Education of Visually Impaired

Before and After Demonstration Site

Judy: Work is being conducted through the task force. They have been busy over the past month. They want comment on the demo site.

Shadi: Let's look at the features list

features list: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/features

Shadi: Let's not focus on the design of the demo. Let's focus on the features list.
... Is this focusing on the direction that we want?
... Decided to make the site use frames, there are 4 content pages
... farther down on the page we describe the barrier that each of the features provides.

Alan: It would be good to cross reference with WCAG.

Shadi: How do we point back the documents that we are producing?
... How do we get from the Bad site to the eval or the bad site to the after site.

Judy: How would you imagine it? On the overview page?

Helle: Would it be possible to put links within the BAD site to reference to the guidelines.
... Linked annotation

Shadi: Then the content becomes something that you have to focus on to find the features.

Judy: We need to do technical features.

Shadi: After that look at the suite and how it is presented as educational resource also.

Judy: They have been doing a compilation of bad markup

Barry: Making a consistent navigation ...inconsistent

Shadi: We did think about additional pages, help page is in wish list.

Liam: My concern, is if we make unusable it will have less impact also.

Barry: I hear the point and its a fair point. Another message that we try to get out is the idea of universal design. Making things better for all through accessibility

Judy: This will be a tough thing for users to concentrate on.
... The Bad site will look decent but will be very broken with accessibility.

Shadi: The look breaks in all browsers but Internet Explorer.

Shawn: Will the good site look the same as the bad site?

Judy: According to the requirements document...yes

Liam: I'm interested in talking about Accessibility increases the reach of accessibility.

<Harvey> Glad to see tabbing works, though some are misplaced, also at bottom jumps to w3c without announcement

Wayne: If they use a different default browser, they won't be able to make any sense of it.
... People may miss the impact of it.

Liam: we may have to roll it back.

Shawn: I'd kind of hate to lose IE difference
... That'd be cool to be a side thing. That is a thing that people don't realize as an issue.

Judy: W3C commented on the IE, US Copyright Office issue...it is an issue.
... It's a user interface issue...we don't' want to confuse people with so many issues.
... For many people it would have been bad in there assistive technologies anyhow.

Shadi: what if we put it on a side page?

Barry: I think that is a great idea.
... Put a tag line...best viewed in internet explorer.

Judy: Should it break even more outside of IE?

Liam: we could browser sniff and put a message up.

Harvey: We don't wanna give IE special attention.

Justin: We could have put it into a overview page...to let people know about the browser problem.

Wayne: If we give one page that was moved over to multiple browsers....if we have scope creep...we add to wish list.

Judy: I am not sure that it is an issue to focus on the single browser issue.

Shawn: I'd leave it up to the taskforce...if its easy leave it up to there...if not put it on the wish list.

Helle: I agree with Shawn.

Henk: It is one of the top problems.

Barry: I am very happy for it to be on the wish list.

Judy: Task force discretion ....maybe put it on a sub page or wish list

Henk: One feature with the menu's with folding out items 3 or 4 times ....sometimes the icons in the menu are tiny.

Shadi: We are planning on using text images....we are think about using java script menu items that will expand.
... We need to look at as far as scope.

Liam: Wish list?

Henk: Keyboard support ...maybe the tab order ...mention that in the feature list?

Liam: We don't want to have all the issues on the list.

Wayne: the table row headers are contained with the span cell...what does that mean?

Shadi: Problems when you have table headers that span multiple columns.
... We have layout tables on the forms page.
... What did you mean by adaptive technologies ?

Wayne: I meant in my enlargement technologies.

Barry: the use of deprecated html features?

Shadi: Thanks Barry
... We are talking about adding non-w3c technologies...right now it would be beyond the scope.

Liam: It was on the intention to have 3 big documents. it was us using it as a sandbox

Shawn: What about relative and absolute units for text size?

Judy: ahh

<shawn> Justin: are frames going to be in the after/good version ?

Shadi: Frames are easy to fix. and can break the whole site.
... the good site will also use frames.

Barry: Add cryptic file names...?

Judy: on the cryptic file names that was on the original demo.

Shadi: Should we take the frames away totally?

Barry: I was wishing at some point show a page without frames.

Liam: have an after the after.

Wayne: I have yet to see a site that enlarges gracefully with frames.

<shawn> +1 to Barry's suggestion of having an alternative good version without frames

Judy: I guess what I was picturing before would use frames ...after would use more or elegant navigation.

<shawn> question as follow up to Wayne's comment: so, can we make the good version make the frames fully accessible with large font

Justin: frames seem so 5 years ago could distract people from what your trying to do.

<shawn> Justin: frames is so 5 years ago, it could be distracting

Liam: still something that we run into.

Jack: Put frames on the wish list.

Judy: Should the bad site use frames at all?

Shadi: Many people use a frames based on a CMS....it is hard to change from frames to no frames.

Shawn: I think frames aren't use in modern design and they are super distracting.
... I agree with shadi...before has frames, the after needs frames.
... I am not sure we can't make a site with frames that works with low vision.

<shawn> SHawn: also, think must have a good version w/o frames

Judy: May have to leave to tf discretion.

Henk: yeah

Doyle: yeah

Jack: leaning towards no

Harvey: yeah

Justin: leaning towards no

Shawn: leaning towards no

Barry: 30 % of our sites are still using frames. I don't think its possible to make a site that meets accessible specification
... Leaning towards no

Helle: Leaning towards no

Wayne: frames are the worst thing in my life.
... Leave it to the task force

Johanna: Leaning towards no

Liam: If i can't make it work with relative sizing...then no.

Judy: leaving it to the task force.

Shawn: If we could have page where we talk about previous issues that we discussed.
... Have good pointers to where we discussed old issues.

<shawn> ? boxes not resizing and no scrollbars so can't get to stuff

Shawn: having text in an area...when you in large the fonts the text disappears and you can't use it at all.

Judy: That is something people wouldn't get unless there was some type of explanation.

Jack: The task force has done a lot of great things.

User Interface of the Before & After Design

Judy: We do plan to have an overview that describes this stuff.

Shadi: It is really easy to make bad web pages
... It will be a huge amount of work to make documentation's, evaluations.
... How can we fit this best into the suite?
... into the rest of the WAI documents
... How would we want to use this as a teaching tool?

Wayne: Like a point of view page...like have them click and hear it read or click and hear it in large print.
... We need to have them experience the barrier.
... Live demos of why the barriers are barriers.

Shadi: Would that be better in the page or as a separate document?

Wayne: I saw it as a meta document. Part of that would be to actually experience it.

Doyle: sounded like the question was having the links on the page or link off to another page.

Jack: Part of the effect of this is to have an experiential level
... Have to understand the coding...to show what is accessible and what is not.

Liam: we are looking for guidance from the group on that.

Judy: Like an interactive demo.

Shawn: what are scenarios of how people will use this?
... self study...presentation...look at one thing
... Giving people tasks or instructions for self discovery...would be easier to show people

<shawn> e.g., do this. notice xyz

Barry: Maybe in the evaluation and the experience will be combined.

Liam: I think that sounds good.

Shadi: Having links back to the original pages...having something that turns of style sheets.
... Having an audio file with the output of a screen reader.
... the more we do of that, the more the work expands.

Judy: Lets brainstorm, and then pick a few things of how we want to do it.
... having a cafeteria list of things of ways they can showcase stuff

Doyle: gives them the ability to prioritize.

Judy: This reminds me of my time in front of the congressional subcommittee

Wayne: i think that hits one of our main groups...our presenters

<judy> (jb)...showing the old version of the before/after demo site

Shawn: We need to take a look at how people are going to use this.

<shawn> audience in: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/requ-basite.html

<shawn> shawn wonders what she was thinking about earlier:

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to agree with Liam and to also say, though - encourage brainstorming.. then scoping down :) and to also say -- this would be good documented in a place we can get

Barry: If someone lands on the demo out of a search engine.
... No one would know what was going on.

Judy: i wouldn't want the caution to be suppressible.

Wayne: I agree

Shawn: We need to have pointers of discussions...then whether or not to include usability things.

Judy: How clearly are the old decisions on usability documented?
... I think we wanted more accessibility then usability.

Barry: What about problems that are unusable and inaccessible?
... If we had one page that was hard to navigate to...that would answer my question

Shadi: click here is also usability a little.
... If the help page does the job...it's on the wish list...we actually hope to be doing that not too far away.
... maybe we need to add to the requirements document

Judy: The task force may be able to work that out as they are developing it.

Shadi: there is no specific timeline

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]