12 Aug 2005


See also: IRC log



Doyle_Saylor, Jack, Shawn, Shadi, Justin_Thorp, Andrew, Ron_Armstrong, Harvey, Judy, Loughborough, Helle_Bjarno


Emma, Pasquale, Barry, Wayne, Chuck, Roberto








Review of agenda by Judy

Outreach updates

Justin sent comments to the email list

Judy was in DC to participate as an observor to a conference about disability dealing with a broad range of standards

Andrew was in Perth for a web accessibility workshop with part of the web accessibility university workshop

Both Ron and Wayne are involved in other university outreach as well

<Andrew> Seminar in Perth WA, was part of the WANAU forums series - www.wanau.org/events/

<Andrew> Workshop in Perth was part of our regular workshop series - www.nils.org.au/ais/web/workshops/

How aging and disability should be addressed in WAI material

Judy sets up the background to the issue

<Harvey> On my website, as part of "Precepts on Aging and Growing Old Gracefully",

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask who has written guidelines for older people & the Web

How do the existing materials talk about aging and disabilities? How well do the exisitng materials deal with aging? Do the materials need to be revised? Are new materials needed?

<Harvey> appendix 3 has websites on aging. http://www.hbingham.com/onaging.htm#appendix3

<Andrew> Australian Council on the Ageing (COTA) has a bibliography on ICT & Ageing @ http://www.cota.org.au/bibliogICT.htm

<Harvey> Older Wiser Wired: http://www.aarp.org/olderwiserwired/

Judy - How much bridging would be needed to existing resources scuh as though mention by Harvey and Andrew?

Review of history with various disabilities such deafness, etc.

<Harvey> http://www.aarp.org/olderwiserwired/oww-resources/designing_web_sites_for_older_adults_heuristics.html

William: those that age don't want to consider themselves as joining the disability community

<Harvey> I addressed many inaccessibilities and ways to overcome them on: http://www.hbingham.com/accessibility/inaccessibilities.htm

<Andrew> Another ref: Design Guidelines for Users of All Ages - http://www.agelight.com/Resources/webdesign.htm

Helle - primary contact is with parents. They are actively involved in local library.

<Andrew> and from MS: The Aging of the US Population and Its Impact on Computer Use - http://www.microsoft.com/enable/research/agingpop.aspx

Helle - the libraries have some of the most accesibility web sites

Doyle - Great interest. Pools that are available for people who are older don't match needs very well.

<Helle> Reference from the Danish knowledge center on gerontology:Young technology in old hands : an international view on senior citizen's utilization of ICT. Birgit Jaeger (ed.)

Here is a link to a Danish research project at Roskilde University. At the end of the web page is an English summary of the book I mentioned on IRC written and edited by Associate Professor, Ph.D. Birgit Jæger responsible for the project http://www.ruc.dk/ssc/forskning/projekter/aeldre_it/  under related materials (DK.= relaterede materialer) http://www.ruc.dk/ssc/forskning/projekter/aeldre_it/#relateret


Judy - Are we reaching people? Are there some that don't see how our week is relevent?

<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to talk about vision australia and NILS client base and services

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say "print-disability" takes it off the person, and onto the print ! :-)

Andrew - The elder's may not see themselves as having a print disability but are taking advantage of the work being done

<Helle> ISBN: 87-574-1127-1

<Helle> the Danish book is in English and I just sent the ISBN for those interested

Shawn - the use of the phrase 'print disability' puts the onus of the problem on the page rather than the person

<shawn> Jack: people don't see the link between "people with disabilities" with them and their issues from aging

<shawn> ... partly it's a problem with language... if able to bridge that gap, we become more relevant and useful. esp. in the commercial. everyone has various limitations & we want to make accessible for everyone

Justiin: Interaction with aging community is limited. But once the connection was made between disabilities and aging are the same many becoame very focal advocates.

Helle: has additional resources that she will send to the list.

Judy: How to better help the public and the aging community to better understand how the technical work can be of help to them?

<shawn> William: enabling connection

Doyle: Older people may be more interested in contact with family. Combine movtivations of aging community with communicating family and friends. Here is how to do what you want

Enabling connections

Talking books

Harvey: Pointing to assistive technologies such as JAWS, etc.

Justin: Do we already have resource lists that help?

Doyle: Be a resource to families who want to help individual family members

Judy: We also need to work on the organizations that advocate and work with Elders. Probably need a dual focus.

Doyle: For example if AARP (American Association if Retired Persons) would be a great force.

AndrewL People who are aging don't see themselves as having a disability.

<Andrew> Self advocacy - see, e.g. http://www.nils.org.au/ais/print/print_alt/printalt.asp

<shawn> Andrew: get consumers on board (rather than just us, get them to request...

Andrew: Talking to various groups dealing with aging such as the council on the aging, AARP would help bring more of consumer pressure on making web site accessbile.

Judy: Shoe leather approach with materials as they are?

<shawn> (shoe leather reference -- walking around, going door-to-door, "pounding the pavement")

Andrew: Not sure if the materials need to be changed or how.

<judy> (...use of ICT linked to development of an identity as an active individual rather than (impairment-related)...)

<Harvey> Aging is certainly better than the alternative!

William: We should look at the materials and should make sure that agining is included.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say approach: 1. make sure it is clearly and appropriately included in our documents (Introduction to Accessibility, others???), 2. outreach campaign to make

Shawn: ... Make sure that aging is clearly and appropriately included in documents.

<Andrew> So - always talk about helping "people with disabilities, impairments and the ageing"?

Shawn: Write articles for various aging magazines, publications. Include on web page as part of quick facts.


Helle: Being old and being disability is not same. We want to make sure that there is a distinction.

<shawn> from How People with Disabilities Use the Web :The term "disability" is used very generally in this document. Some people with conditions described below would not consider themselves to have disabilities. They may, however, have limitations of sensory, physical or cognitive functioning which can affect access to the Web. These may include injury-related and aging-related conditions, and can be temporary or chronic.

<shawn> The number and severity of limitations tend to increase as people age, and may include changes in vision, hearing, memory, or motor function. Aging-related conditions can be accommodated on the Web by the same accessibility solutions used to accommodate people with disabilities.

Judy: Point one is to always say something about it. Point two is to make sure that aging and disability are distinct.
... Reads part of document of 'How People with Disabilities Use the Web'

Reaction from several people positive about reaction.

Andrew: Maybe we need to have a parallel document that talks about how People who are aging use the web.

<Andrew> Here is a great ref: Ageing on the Web - http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/aw03/papers/newton/paper.html

Shawn: I think we need a piece that is small and dedicated to ageing.

<Harvey> We shouldn't change titles, as they are widely referenced.

William: Maybe it could be included in changing part of the titles.

Judy: Please review existing materials and then come back to discuss the topic. Are there any volunters to review materials? William will take on assignment.

<LiamM> Sorry -- already have my time filled with BAD-TF...

Judy: Justin and Shawn will be of technical assistances.

<Andrew> very quickly: 6,890 documents have disability or disabilities; only 122 have ageing

Helle will work with William.

Introduction to Web Accessibility document

Shawn: Comments incorporated. No additional comments reviewed.

Judy: Should we include additional things about aging?

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/accessibility.php

<Andrew> can we simple change the intro sentence to "Web accessibility means that people with disabilities or impairments and those who are aging can use the Web"

<LiamM> What about those of us with slow web connections?

<LiamM> Maybe emphasise more strongly the idea of 'Reach' in general, not just users with disabilities?

Judy: ... Change 2nd sentence in 1st paragraph to include aging.

<LiamM> Suggestion: "Web accessibility means that everybody can use the Web. More specifically, Web accessibility means that people with access requirements due to disability, technology or aging can perceive, understand, navigate, and interact with the Web, and that they can contribute to the Web." ?

<shawn> ACTION: shawn look at adding aging above the fold in Introduction to Web Accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/12-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Judy: With the exception of changes to aging, the document should be issued as 2.0?

No objections to moving it from draft status to production.

Judy: Shawn will have her discretion in incorporating aging comments and moving document forward.

Business Case For Business Case

<LiamM> 4. Query

<LiamM> * priority: 2

<LiamM> * location: Technical Factors, (http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/bcase/tech.html)

<LiamM> * current wording:

<LiamM> Some developers and organizations pride themselves on producing high quality Web sites that meet technical standards. Web accessibility guidelines such as the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 1.0 from the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) are widely-recognized international standards. Several resources addressing the the business case for Web standards in general are available on the Web and in print.

<LiamM> * query:

<LiamM> Can we provide examples? For example,

<LiamM> http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/ or even just http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22business+case+for+web+standards%22

<LiamM> * rationale

<LiamM> Not currently obvious where to get these.

<shawn> re: e-mail EOWG: 1 change for review - [for EOWG teleconference] Re: Business Case proofing notes - more notes

<shawn> objections to that change?

<shawn> no objections

Liam: In technical factors document. Should include pointers to where to start looking.

Shawn: Would we want to have a pointer or do we want to give them instructions about how we do that?

Andrew: As long as we put in an appropriate disclaimer, we should be able to put this in. However, the document should be released now. Add this to a wish list.

Agreement that is the way to proceed.

<shawn> please complete survey at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/bcase1/

Judy: Participants in good standing should vote on document to proceed.
... Asks Shawn to send out reminder.

Face 2 Face Meeting

Shawn: There is not sufficient support for Geermany right now. Australia is still a possibility.

<LiamM> Currently, can only find reference to 'age' or 'aging' in the Financial Factors part of the BC.

<shawn> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JulSep/0062.html

<shawn> About RSS

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/highlights/about-rss.html

<LiamM> Bye

<shawn> rssagent, draft minutes

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: shawn look at adding aging above the fold in Introduction to Web Accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/12-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]