IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-08-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-irc

14:00:21 [Michael]

rrsagent, make log world

14:00:37 [Michael]

meeting: WCAG Techniques Teleconference 10 August 2005

14:00:43 [Michael]

chair: Michael Cooper

14:00:54 [Michael]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0324.html

14:01:00 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

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+ +1.613.482.aaaa

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+Becky_Gibson

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+Don_Evans

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+PaulC

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+Wendy

14:02:39 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:02:39 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +1.613.482.aaaa, Becky_Gibson, Don_Evans, PaulC, Wendy

14:02:46 [Zakim]

+??P20

14:02:53 [ben]

zakim, ??P20 is Ben

14:02:53 [Zakim]

+Ben; got it

14:03:00 [Christophe]

zakim, mute me

14:03:00 [Zakim]

sorry, Christophe, I do not see a party named 'Christophe'

14:03:13 [wendy]

zakim, +1.613.482.aaaa is David_MacDonald

14:03:13 [Zakim]

+David_MacDonald; got it

14:03:15 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

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+??P21

14:03:42 [wendy]

zakim, PaulC is Christophe

14:03:42 [Zakim]

+Christophe; got it

14:03:49 [wendy]

zakim, ??P21 is Lisa_Seeman

14:03:49 [Zakim]

+Lisa_Seeman; got it

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14:04:06 [Christophe]

zakim, mute me

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Christophe should now be muted

14:04:16 [Christophe]

zakim, unmute me

14:04:16 [Zakim]

Christophe should no longer be muted

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14:04:59 [DonFEvans]

hello

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14:09:06 [Zakim]

+??P25

14:09:26 [wendy]

zakim, ??P25 is Chris_Ridpath

14:09:26 [Zakim]

+Chris_Ridpath; got it

14:09:33 [wendy]

zakim, take up item 1

14:09:33 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Discuss Script techniques direction http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0015.html" taken up [from Michael]

14:15:20 [wendy]

discussion - how much code should we include in scripting techniques? didn't seem to be a lot of support for david's proposal, although not much discussion on the list.

14:15:30 [wendy]

becky is working on an example that should be out today.

14:16:58 [wendy]

seems to be consensus that examples are good. clarify that "these are examples, not the only way it can be done."

14:22:20 [wendy]

for scripting, write functional outcomes that tie back to success criteria.

14:22:42 [wendy]

want to find a way forward to keep scripting at high priority since "selling point" for wcag 2.0 (addresses web apps).

14:23:09 [Becky]

http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/error.html

14:23:27 [wendy]

re: functional outcomes - a menu should be operable by keyboard (2.4), all items should be read (1.1), items in appropriate order (x.y)

14:26:09 [wendy]

discussion about providing techniques that only work in firefox 1.5 and ie 6 - advanced accessibility, but concerns that usable by small audience (future techniques).

14:26:20 [wendy]

scribe: wendy

14:27:02 [wendy]

if we do include future techniques, need to set expectations correctly.

14:28:18 [Christophe]

zakim, mute me

14:28:18 [Zakim]

Christophe should now be muted

14:28:32 [wendy]

going back to idea about "functional outcomes" - even if not providing complete techniques/worked examples, need some snippets of the pieces that we know how to do.

14:28:45 [wendy]

e.g., various ways of providing menus.

14:31:14 [Christophe]

zakim, unmute me

14:31:14 [Zakim]

Christophe should no longer be muted

14:31:36 [wendy]

action: becky start discussion of javascript url protocol on the list

14:36:18 [wendy]

resolution: scripting techniques assume basic level of javascript understanding and do not try to teach the basics of javascript.

14:40:16 [wendy]

prioritize on those things that are most frequently asked about. maybe if we cover only the top 5 - 10 issues/questions, we're 80% or more of the way to Last Call.

14:42:33 [wendy]

where we know things are broken address, even if we don't know the answers, maybe encourage someone else to do so.

14:44:59 [wendy]

resolution: we will include code in scripting techniques

14:45:51 [wendy]

top priorities for scripting:

14:46:22 [wendy]

drop down menus - http://www.brothercake.com/dropdown/

14:47:59 [wendy]

form validation

14:48:01 [wendy]

show/hide

14:48:52 [wendy]

list at http://www.webaim.org/techniques/javascript/

14:49:19 [wendy]

focus - setting it automatically either in form control when page load, or auto move when fill it out

14:50:09 [wendy]

focus - moving to a non-form element (e.g., have a left menu that's javscript, moving focus to right navigation panel. ala in an email product)

14:51:04 [wendy]

understanding when content has changed

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and can get to the change

14:51:30 [wendy]

difference between visual focus and screenr eader focus

14:52:05 [wendy]

complete keyboard and mouse support - e.g., can open a menu w/a keybaord, as soon as tab "into" it closes b/c menu item no longer receiving focus

14:52:10 [wendy]

pop-ups

14:52:25 [wendy]

some discussion on list re: help text

14:52:43 [wendy]

relates to "knowing content is there" issue

14:57:26 [wendy]

action: wendy add this list to plan for scripting techniques

14:57:51 [wendy]

zakim, next item

14:57:51 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Script techniques / baseline proposals http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0767.html" taken up [from Michael]

15:02:50 [wendy]

if javascript not in baseline, refer to html techniques (note instead of grid)?

15:04:25 [wendy]

when using complex javascript on other technologies (e.g., svg 1.2 - input on a set of lines and turn into an editing field), lack of semantics.

15:05:48 [wendy]

agenda+ if time, check in on work statement edits

15:06:44 [wendy]

is "relies upon" necessary? need "usable without"

15:06:55 [wendy]

discuss how to categorize techs for each technology

15:07:16 [wendy]

"not applicable"

15:07:33 [wendy]

which was primary related to CSS

15:13:00 [wendy]

"works in"

15:13:11 [wendy]

e.g., this tech only works if the following techs are in your baseline

15:13:42 [wendy]

instead of table, simplify to 2 bullets?

15:14:03 [wendy]

1. if script in baseline, sufficient for SCx

15:14:09 [wendy]

2. if not, refer to technique xyz

15:16:43 [wendy]

javascript available and enabled...

15:16:55 [wendy]

javascript available and disabled...optional technique...

15:17:05 [wendy]

is enabled part of baseline assumption?

15:17:12 [wendy]

zakim, who's making noise?

15:17:22 [Zakim]

wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_MacDonald (9%), Becky_Gibson (80%)

15:17:38 [wendy]

if not technique to refer to, state that

15:17:49 [wendy]

or "requires server-side valiation"

15:17:52 [David]

zakim, mute me

15:17:52 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald should now be muted

15:18:05 [wendy]

title: baseline implications

15:19:56 [wendy]

action: becky include this idea in upcoming mock-up

15:20:57 [wendy]

add to agenda for next week - 2 issues re: becy's proposal 1. baseline 2. testing

15:21:02 [wendy]

zakim, next item

15:21:02 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Testing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0042.html" taken up [from Michael]

15:21:16 [wendy]

skipping since tim's not here

15:21:18 [wendy]

zakim, next item

15:21:18 [Zakim]

agendum 3 was just opened, wendy

15:21:24 [David]

zakim, unmute me

15:21:24 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald should no longer be muted

15:21:29 [wendy]

zakim, close item 3

15:21:29 [Zakim]

agendum 3, Testing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0042.html, closed

15:21:31 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:21:32 [Zakim]

4. Test case reviews http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0326.html [from Michael]

15:21:34 [wendy]

zakim, next item

15:21:34 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Test case reviews http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0326.html" taken up [from Michael]

15:22:37 [wendy]

andrew disagreed: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0330.html

15:23:58 [wendy]

some agreement with andrew's statement, it's a user agent repair test

15:24:27 [wendy]

modify test - ok to do as long a have for and id?

15:24:43 [wendy]

a test associated with a repair technique?

15:25:04 [wendy]

move existing html tech into "repair" category

15:26:02 [wendy]

test 57 allows implicit association

15:26:19 [wendy]

this test contradicts 57

15:26:27 [wendy]

add it as a UA issue? include it at the technique level?

15:26:55 [wendy]

current html techs, "don't use label implicitly" and is marked as deprecated.

15:27:33 [wendy]

intention, this tech to be deprecated. now saying it's ok, as long as use for and id. therefore, both tech and test case need to be fixed.

15:27:43 [wendy]

can do this w/out for and id?

15:27:49 [wendy]

just put input in label?

15:28:08 [wendy]

some user agents have a problem with that

15:30:02 [wendy]

test 186 - label can contain input but also have for and id?

15:30:19 [wendy]

should be a repair technique that explains the user agent problems

15:30:37 [wendy]

tech 15.2 (30 june 2005 draft) - move to repair techs. reference using for/id as solution.

15:31:30 [wendy]

the practice is valid html (label in input). issue is that screen readers don't always recognize.

15:31:59 [wendy]

remove test 186?

15:32:21 [wendy]

then in 57 - say ok, but not recommended?

15:33:44 [wendy]

action: chris review discussion on test 57, make proposal re: 57 and 186

15:34:41 [wendy]

action: michael make edit and send w/rest of proposed revised structure of html techs

15:36:25 [wendy]

test 187 - david suggested to keep it

15:36:30 [wendy]

some push back on the list

15:36:46 [wendy]

andrew said it's a valid technique

15:37:24 [wendy]

lisa had questions

15:39:00 [wendy]

related to "required" mark - way to associate that w/form control

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15:40:10 [wendy]

while ago, proposal for "no more than one label per control" not in the current draft. believe that we rejected the technique. therefore, reject the test?

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15:40:29 [wendy]

as long as it's legal html, no reason to limit?

15:40:49 [wendy]

testing showed it was legal, unpredictable about which label "you get" (read by screen reader?)

15:41:02 [Christophe]

it's legal: www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL

15:41:20 [wendy]

"forms mode" in general, seems to be an issue. only get info from labels and inputs, no other info (issue we've seen w/wbs forms)

15:41:45 [wendy]

resolution: reject test 187

15:44:17 [wendy]

test 189 - similar issues to 187

15:44:20 [wendy]

?

15:44:31 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:45:11 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

15:46:04 [wendy]

concern that there are some things could do to increase accessibility that would fail this test (related to descriptions or additional information about form controls, e.g., characteristics such as "required")

15:46:50 [wendy]

current wording: Test 189 - label must describe its associated control.

15:47:42 [wendy]

perhaps: text of the label directly relates to the associated control OR text of label is associated with the control OR "conceptually relate"

15:48:29 [wendy]

be careful about using "must" in the text of the test - ala john's suggestion

15:48:31 [Zakim]

-Lisa_Seeman

15:49:19 [wendy]

action: david propose wording of test 189

15:49:25 [wendy]

is alt-text considered?

15:49:47 [wendy]

addressed in test 188

15:50:37 [wendy]

zakim, next item

15:50:37 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "if time, check in on work statement edits" taken up [from wendy]

15:51:39 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2003/12/wttf.html

15:53:11 [Zakim]

-Don_Evans

15:57:20 [wendy]

minor edits made to clarify a couple things. edits made as we discussed.

15:57:28 [wendy]

resolution: TTF work statement ready for thursday's discussion

15:58:45 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

15:58:47 [Zakim]

-Chris_Ridpath

15:58:47 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:58:49 [Zakim]

-Ben

15:58:49 [Zakim]

-Christophe

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15:58:51 [Zakim]

-Wendy

15:59:05 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:59:05 [Zakim]

On the phone I see David_MacDonald

15:59:19 [wendy]

zakim, drop David

15:59:19 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald is being disconnected

15:59:21 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:59:23 [Zakim]

Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Don_Evans, Wendy, Ben, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Christophe, Lisa_Seeman, Chris_Ridpath

15:59:26 [wendy]

RRSAgent, generate minutes

15:59:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy

16:01:33 [wendy]

zakim, bye

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16:01:35 [wendy]

RRSAgent, bye

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: becky start discussion of javascript url protocol on the list [1]

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-irc#T14-31-36

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wendy add this list to plan for scripting techniques [2]

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-irc#T14-57-26

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: becky include this idea in upcoming mock-up [3]

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-irc#T15-19-56

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: chris review discussion on test 57, make proposal re: 57 and 186 [4]

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-irc#T15-33-44

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: michael make edit and send w/rest of proposed revised structure of html techs [5]

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-irc#T15-34-41

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: david propose wording of test 189 [6]

16:01:35 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/10-wai-wcag-irc#T15-49-19