IRC log of swbp on 2005-08-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:54:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swbp
13:54:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc
13:54:31 [Ralph]
Meeting: SWBPD RDFXHTML TF
13:56:13 [Ralph]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes
14:00:28 [benadida]
benadida has joined #swbp
14:01:02 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
14:01:09 [Zakim]
+Ralph
14:01:22 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
14:01:25 [Zakim]
-Ralph
14:01:26 [Zakim]
+Ralph
14:01:34 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:34 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:36 [Zakim]
+Steven
14:01:37 [Ralph]
Chair: Ben
14:01:43 [Zakim]
-Steven
14:01:45 [Zakim]
+Danbri
14:01:52 [Zakim]
+Steven
14:01:56 [Zakim]
-Steven
14:02:17 [Steven]
I'll check the router
14:02:20 [Steven]
Just a mo
14:03:05 [Ralph]
Ben: most of my actions CONTINUE
14:05:12 [Ralph]
... worried about finding an interim chair for next 6 weeks
14:05:22 [Ralph]
Ralph: yeah, no progress on finding a candidate
14:05:37 [Ralph]
DanBri: I'm willing to chair a few telecons but not the entire 6 weeks
14:06:08 [Ralph]
Ralph: likewise
14:07:48 [danbri]
in http://www.w3.org/2003/Editors/#tools ?
14:09:05 [danbri]
q+ to ask steven if HTML link type text changed from feb to may
14:09:25 [danbri]
agenda+ danbri progress report re http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/
14:10:04 [Steven_]
Steven_ has joined #swbp
14:10:17 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/Guide/Overview.html Art of Consensus
14:10:34 [Steven_]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:10:34 [Zakim]
ok, Steven_; the call is being made
14:10:34 [Zakim]
+Steven
14:10:34 [Ralph]
see "Style for Group-internal Drafts" under "The Recommendation Track"
14:11:25 [Ralph]
Steven: possible regrets from Mark
14:13:22 [Ralph]
Topic: RDF Role
14:13:39 [Ralph]
Steven: as far as I'm concerned, it's resolved
14:13:51 [Ralph]
agenda+ RDF Role attribute
14:13:56 [Ralph]
Topic: Action Review
14:14:13 [Ralph]
agenda+ HTML rel types [DanBri]
14:15:28 [Ralph]
ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
14:15:30 [Ralph]
-- continues
14:15:34 [Ralph]
ACTION: Ben send mail to www-html-editors to assign an issue for the GRDDL namespace document behind the profile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
14:15:36 [Ralph]
-- continues
14:15:39 [Ralph]
ACTION: Ben to notify working group via a status report of upcoming WD of Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
14:15:40 [Ralph]
-- continues
14:15:43 [Ralph]
ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
14:15:44 [Ralph]
-- continues
14:15:52 [Ralph]
ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
14:15:57 [Ralph]
-- continues
14:16:01 [Ralph]
ACTION: jjc to review rdf concepts and fragments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10]
14:16:06 [Ralph]
-- continues
14:16:16 [Ralph]
ACTION: All take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action07]
14:16:33 [Ralph]
-- continues
14:17:26 [Ralph]
drop agendum 3
14:17:36 [Ralph]
zakim, agenda?
14:17:37 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
14:17:40 [Zakim]
1. danbri progress report re http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/ [from danbri]
14:17:41 [Zakim]
2. RDF Role attribute [from Ralph]
14:18:02 [Ralph]
Ralph: HTML2 Last Call status?
14:18:11 [Ralph]
Steven: churning through issues; schema is getting close
14:18:27 [Ralph]
... we now have a complete RelaxNG version and it's being converted to XML Schema
14:18:52 [Ralph]
... f2f scheduled for early September; that's the most likely moment to decide to go to Last Call
14:19:50 [Ralph]
DanBri: have the link type definitions changed much since the Feb [editor's] draft and the latest public WD?
14:20:00 [Ralph]
Steven: there is a good diff-marked document
14:20:02 [Steven_]
Diff version: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/xhtml2-diff.html
14:20:33 [benadida]
back
14:20:51 [Ralph]
Steven: copyright is new
14:21:04 [Ralph]
... icon and profile are also new
14:21:45 [Ralph]
rrsagent, please make logs public
14:22:08 [Ralph]
Steven: in the diff, yellow is added text, green is changed text
14:22:25 [Ralph]
... orange is deleted text (but I thought that this version did not show deleted text)
14:22:40 [danbri]
q+ to check that preferred xhtml2 ns is exactly "http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/"
14:22:50 [benadida]
ack
14:23:19 [Ralph]
move to next agendum
14:23:19 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "danbri progress report re http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/" taken up [from danbri]
14:23:22 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask steven if HTML link type text changed from feb to may and to check that preferred xhtml2 ns is exactly "http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/"
14:23:56 [danbri]
http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/
14:23:59 [Ralph]
DanBri: my task was to make an RDF representation of the HTML link types and draft a note
14:24:13 [Steven_]
Orange colour means that the statement is a 'must'
14:24:17 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/ XHTML link types in RDF
14:24:38 [Ralph]
DanBri: lots of open issues at the end of this draft
14:25:02 [Ralph]
... current text is largely copied from the XML document
14:25:34 [Ralph]
... would like to hear from implementors on some of the details
14:25:52 [Ralph]
... some things missing; e.g. bookmark titles
14:26:01 [Ralph]
... one open issue: what is the namespace URI?
14:26:13 [Ralph]
... have been assuming that we'd use the XHTML2 namespace
14:26:31 [Ralph]
... so what [char] is at the end of the namespace URI?
14:27:01 [Ralph]
Steven: we could do a redirect if necessary -- what's the reason for requiring it?
14:27:25 [Ralph]
DanBri: TAG resolution on # vs. / and information resources [see httpRange-14]
14:27:55 [Ralph]
Steven: we put the / at the end to help with the RDF stuff; we thought this gave us the most flexibility
14:29:02 [benadida]
q+ to ask about using RDF/A to define the RDFS
14:29:11 [Ralph]
DanBri: I tried to find an expansion for XHTML to use with the acronym tag
14:29:24 [Ralph]
Steven: use Extensible Hypertext Markup Language
14:29:24 [benadida]
ack
14:29:26 [benadida]
ack ben
14:29:26 [Zakim]
benadida, you wanted to ask about using RDF/A to define the RDFS
14:29:28 [danbri]
""Extensible Hypertext Markup Language" = XHTML
14:30:41 [Ralph]
Ben: does the httpRange-14 issue resolution mean that we can't have an XHTML2 document containing RDF/A that is an RDF Schema for the rel types?
14:30:57 [danbri]
+1 on it being nice to have an RDF/A version
14:31:03 [Ralph]
... it would be nice from a consistency viewpoint if we could write the RDF schema in RDF/A
14:31:04 [danbri]
(I'd like an application/rdf+xml too)
14:31:49 [Ralph]
DanBri: I think this should be possible with a combination of redirects and content negotiation
14:33:47 [Ralph]
Ralph: in a private conversation with TimBL yesterday he confirmed that 303 and possibly 308 were the only acceptable redirection responses for the httpRange-14 resolution
14:33:54 [Ralph]
DanBri: will this make it on the TAG agenda?
14:34:12 [Ralph]
Ralph: not likely unless we raise it, possibly via a use case
14:34:26 [Ralph]
DanBri: I though I'd done that with a purl.org example
14:36:03 [Ralph]
DanBri: I'd like to propose [an updated version of] http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/ to the SWBPD WG to be a Working Draft
14:36:19 [Ralph]
... I'd like to link from this document directly to the XHTML document
14:38:33 [danbri]
looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset-rdfs ... tiny little doc
14:40:43 [Ralph]
DanBri: should feedback go to just the TF mailing list, or should this be considered a joint WG task with feedback to both lists?
14:40:51 [Ralph]
Steven: there is no objection to the TF owning this
14:41:05 [Ralph]
... the HTML WG has enough on its hands and are happy to just coordinate
14:41:13 [Ralph]
s/TF/SWBPD WG/
14:41:34 [Ralph]
Steven: fine with me to direct feedback just to the TF mailing list
14:41:51 [Ralph]
DanBri: ok to point into the XHTML2 spec for the definitions?
14:41:55 [Ralph]
[no objections]
14:42:07 [danbri]
<rdf:Property rdf:about"#start">
14:42:09 [danbri]
<rdfs:label>start</rdfs:label>
14:42:10 [danbri]
<rdfs:comment>Refers to the first resource in a collection of resources. A typical use case might be a collection of chapters in a book.</rdfs:comment>
14:42:12 [danbri]
<rdfs:range rdf:resource"#Document"/>
14:42:13 [danbri]
<rdfs:domain rdf:resource"#Document"/>
14:42:15 [danbri]
<rdf:type rdf:resource"http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#ObjectProperty"/>
14:42:17 [danbri]
</rdf:Property>
14:42:25 [Ralph]
DanBri: RDF/OWL definitions in-line or in appendix?
14:42:36 [Ralph]
Steven: my preference has been to put all that in appendices
14:42:58 [Ralph]
Ralph: I'd like to see it inline somewhere [appendix is fine]
14:43:28 [Ralph]
DanBri: note my addition of a Class of documents
14:43:51 [Ralph]
Steven: when we say 'documents' we actually mean anything addressable by a URI -- i.e. a resource
14:44:01 [Ralph]
DanBri: 'resource' is an overloaded term
14:44:26 [Ralph]
... can we agree to use the TAG's definition of 'information resource'?
14:44:29 [Ralph]
Steven: fine by me
14:44:47 [Ralph]
DanBri: on the ATOM mailing list there has been discussion of new link types, identified by URI\
14:45:00 [Ralph]
... I'd like to cite that from this document
14:45:03 [danbri]
see atom-syntax
14:45:37 [Ralph]
... there's a built-in set of link types in ATOM
14:45:45 [Ralph]
... they've decided to use the IETF process to register new link types
14:46:05 [Ralph]
... shortnames acceptable if URI has been registered with IETF, otherwise a full URI is acceptable
14:46:21 [Ralph]
move to next agendum
14:46:21 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "RDF Role attribute" taken up [from Ralph]
14:46:54 [Ralph]
Steven: my proposal was to make role a synonym for rdf:type
14:47:15 [Ralph]
... Jeremy said he'd be happier if it were a subtype [subProperty] of rdf:type
14:47:45 [Ralph]
Ben: the role attribute can be applied to any element?
14:47:57 [Ralph]
Steven: yes, it was originally introduced for accessibility
14:48:11 [danbri]
q+ to suggest it be considered _syntax_ for rdf:type, not a subPropertyOf (which takes us out of OWL DL/Lite for all apps)
14:48:13 [Ralph]
... the accessibility community began defining some roles they needed
14:48:23 [Ralph]
... it dawned on the HTML WG that role was more generally useful
14:48:33 [benadida]
ack danbri
14:48:33 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to suggest it be considered _syntax_ for rdf:type, not a subPropertyOf (which takes us out of OWL DL/Lite for all apps)
14:49:36 [Ralph]
DanBri: we should try to avoid shutting out OWL-DL from using XHTML2
14:50:15 [Ralph]
Ben: how does <div role='whatever'> apply to the element? Does this effectively become a bnode?
14:50:34 [Ralph]
Steven: it may well be
14:51:08 [Ralph]
ACTION: Ben add role attribute to the [HTML] issues list
14:51:42 [Ralph]
Ben: should this be part of the RDF Schema that DanBri is working on?
14:51:59 [Ralph]
DanBri: if we're only using rdf:type it's pure syntax and doesn't affect the schema
14:52:16 [Ralph]
... is there anything else in the syntax that shows up as RDF Properties or Classes?
14:52:22 [Ralph]
Steven: don't think so
14:52:43 [Zakim]
-Steven
14:52:50 [Ralph]
close this agendum
14:56:23 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
14:56:34 [Zakim]
-Danbri
14:56:40 [Ralph]
DanBri: ok for me to announce the link types document to the WG when I'm ready?
14:56:41 [Ralph]
Ben: sure
14:56:46 [Ralph]
[adjourned]
14:56:49 [Zakim]
-Ralph
14:56:50 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
14:56:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, Danbri
14:57:34 [benadida]
benadida has left #swbp
14:59:00 [danbri]
"New!Style for Group-internal Drafts" is indeed in /Guide/
14:59:09 [danbri]
i was looking for 'Editor's ...'
15:05:08 [Ralph]
as was I
15:05:31 [Ralph]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:05:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-minutes.html Ralph
15:05:43 [Ralph]
zakim, bye
15:05:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swbp
15:05:48 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-actions.rdf :
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action01] [1]
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc#T14-15-28
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben send mail to www-html-editors to assign an issue for the GRDDL namespace document behind the profile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [2]
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc#T14-15-34
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to notify working group via a status report of upcoming WD of Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02] [3]
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc#T14-15-39
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02] [4]
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc#T14-15-43
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06] [5]
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc#T14-15-52
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jjc to review rdf concepts and fragments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10] [6]
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc#T14-16-01
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: All take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action07] [7]
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc#T14-16-16
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben add role attribute to the [HTML] issues list [8]
15:05:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/08/02-swbp-irc#T14-51-08