14:27:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:27:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-irc
14:27:39 <EliasT> k.
14:27:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dawg
14:27:48 <DanC> Zakim, this will be dawg
14:27:48 <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:28:48 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:28:55 <Zakim> +HowardK
14:28:57 <DanC> agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0086.html
14:29:04 <Zakim> +[IBMCambridge]
14:29:07 <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0086.html
14:29:14 <DanC> Meeting: RDF Data Access
14:29:15 <Zakim> + +1.617.906.aaaa
14:29:23 <DanC> agenda + SPARQL results format booleans, datatypes
14:29:28 <LeeF> zakim, 617.906.aaaa is LeeF
14:29:28 <Zakim> sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named '617.906.aaaa'
14:29:30 <Zakim> +??P25
14:29:33 <DanC> agenda + SPARQL QL publication
14:29:34 <AndyS> zakim, ??P25 is AndyS
14:29:34 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:29:36 <EliasT> Zakim, IBMCambridge is EliasT
14:29:36 <Zakim> +EliasT; got it
14:29:41 <DanC> agenda + Test suite maintenance
14:29:47 <Zakim> +??P26
14:29:49 <LeeF> zakim, +1.617.906.aaaa is LeeF
14:29:49 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:29:52 <DaveB> Zakim, ??P26 is DaveB
14:29:52 <Zakim> +DaveB; got it
14:30:09 <Zakim> +DanC
14:30:22 <LeeF> zakim, mute me
14:30:22 <Zakim> LeeF should now be muted
14:30:24 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
14:30:24 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0086.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:30:27 <Zakim> +Yoshio
14:30:30 <DanC> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:30:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html DanC
14:30:49 <Zakim> +Jeen_Broekstra
14:31:06 <DanC> Chair: DanC
14:31:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:31:11 <Zakim> +Kevin
14:31:20 <SteveH> Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH
14:31:20 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:31:22 <DanC> Scribe: EliasT
14:31:25 <SteveH> Zakim, mute me
14:31:25 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
14:31:26 <DanC> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:31:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html DanC
14:32:08 <DanC> Regrets: Janne Saarela, Hiroyuki Sato, Kendall Clark, Jos DeRoo
14:32:14 <DanC> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:32:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html DanC
14:32:24 <patH> patH has joined #dawg
14:32:40 <Zakim> +[MIT528]
14:32:41 <DanC> Zakim, list attendees
14:32:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been HowardK, AndyS, EliasT, LeeF, DaveB, DanC, Yoshio, Jeen_Broekstra, Kevin, SteveH, [MIT528]
14:33:01 <Zakim> +??P31
14:33:02 <Zakim> +PatH
14:33:03 <DanC> Zakim, MIT528 holds EricP
14:33:03 <Zakim> +EricP; got it
14:33:23 <DanC> Zakim, ??P31 is Souri
14:33:23 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
14:33:56 <DanC> Zakim, list attendees
14:33:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been HowardK, AndyS, EliasT, LeeF, DaveB, DanC, Yoshio, Jeen_Broekstra, Kevin, SteveH, PatH, EricP, Souri
14:34:44 <DanC> Welcome Souri of Oracle
14:35:20 <EliasT> http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-dawg-minutes.html
14:35:56 <EliasT> Next meeting, July 26th.
14:36:02 <EliasT> Scribe for next meeting, EricP.
14:36:47 <DanC> due to KC's regrets, I'm not adding Andy's protocol stuff today
14:36:49 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:36:49 <Zakim> agendum 2. "SPARQL results format booleans, datatypes" taken up [from DanC]
14:36:52 <EliasT> DanC, proposes to postpone protocol discussion until kendall meets again.
14:37:09 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access Telecon (agenda: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0086>)
14:37:28 <Zakim> -SteveH
14:37:39 <LeeF> zakim, unmute me
14:37:39 <Zakim> LeeF should no longer be muted
14:37:59 <DaveB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0067.html
14:38:20 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0067.html 2 points remaining
14:38:43 <DanC> +1 just a bool
14:39:07 <EliasT> DaveB: We don't need to keep index="number", indicate that results are indexed via a boolean and to indicate distinctness.
14:39:26 <DanC> (hmm... what would it be like to record all the solution modifier stuff? maybe that should get postponed along with XMLAbstractSyntax)
14:40:11 <EliasT> ericP, Andy, Jeen in favor of boolean indicating ordered results.
14:40:21 <EliasT> attribute name is "ordered=true"
14:40:37 <EliasT> DaveB: what should the default be?
14:40:45 <EliasT> ericP: should default to false.
14:41:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:41:33 <SteveH> Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH
14:41:33 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:41:40 <EliasT> unknown: ordered attribute should be mandatory.
14:41:42 <ericP> ericP now in favor of mandatory
14:41:48 <Zakim> -SteveH
14:42:02 <ericP> +1
14:42:05 <EliasT> LeeF: should be an error to have an ORDER BY query without ordered="true" in the results.
14:42:10 <patH> unknown was Pat Hayes
14:42:16 <SteveH> +1 to mandatory
14:42:19 <EliasT> patH: ordered attribute should be mandatory.
14:43:37 <EliasT> ericP: the reason for DISTINCT when someone is consuming a results via a stream.
14:44:29 <swh_> swh_ has joined #dawg
14:44:41 <EliasT> AndyS: we need to find a principle for adding distinct to the results.
14:45:03 <DanC> q+ to suggest optinal distinct="true" attribute
14:45:03 <EliasT> DanC: wonders why is adding ordered different than adding distinct.
14:45:14 <EliasT> AndyS: ordered useful for XSLT presentation of results, can't see the same for distinct
14:45:15 <DanC> ack danc
14:45:15 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to suggest optinal distinct="true" attribute
14:45:43 <EliasT> ericP: in favor of both ordered and distinct being parallel.
14:45:57 <EliasT> DanC: any real scenarios for using ordered/distinct.
14:46:05 <EliasT> AndyS: He has a use for ordered.
14:46:13 <Yoshio> q+ to ask if the result receiver knows something about query
14:46:55 <DanC> ack yoshio
14:46:55 <Zakim> Yoshio, you wanted to ask if the result receiver knows something about query
14:47:44 <Zakim> +??P9
14:47:48 <ericP> Yoshio: if you user knows about the orginal query...
14:47:56 <swh_> Zakim, ??P9 is SteveH
14:47:56 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:48:06 <SteveH> Zakim, mute me
14:48:06 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
14:48:33 <EliasT> DanC: as per Andy, sometimes yes, sometimes no
14:49:23 <EliasT> Yoshio: in the results format we have the variables used, but not their relationship in the query.
14:50:18 <EliasT> DaveB: the results should not further describe the query.
14:51:26 <patH> Yoshio, I think it is up to the querying agent to keep track of such relationships, if it wishes to do so.
14:52:44 <EliasT> Souri: What are the negatives having also distinct?
14:53:45 <EliasT> DaveB: it makes it inconsistent to have ordered mandatory and distinct optional.
14:54:18 <ericP> Yoshio, patH, a generic XML Results Set to HTML converter would care about @ordered and @distinct but not the query
14:54:22 <Yoshio> my concern is  if a query receiver will be happy if he/she just part of the  information of the original query
14:54:41 <Yoshio> s/just/just get/
14:55:30 <EliasT> DanC: DaveB, did you take care of the xsi:type issue.
14:55:36 <EliasT> DaveB: yes, I did so via email.
14:55:37 <DaveB> yeah, gone see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0058.html
14:55:41 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0058.html
14:56:15 <DanC> ACTION: DaveB integrate advice on ordered and distinct and propose last call candidate for results set spect
14:56:41 <SteveH> I can review it
14:57:08 <EliasT> ACTION: LeeF, SteveH and Jeen to review XML results set format.
14:57:38 <DanC> Note Well: possible last call decision next week.
14:58:01 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:58:01 <Zakim> agendum 3. "SPARQL QL publication" taken up [from DanC]
14:58:41 <EliasT> DanC: saw recent discussion on regex language.
14:59:20 <EliasT> AndyS: Reg Exp language in XML Schema is not quite the same as XQuery - differences have to do with anchoring
14:59:48 <EliasT> ericP: acknowledges Andy. Thanks.
15:00:19 <DanC> ACTION: EricP clarify which regex lang [continues]
15:01:00 <EliasT> DanC: proposes to withdraw CVS logs emailed to mailing list.
15:01:30 <EliasT> ericP: in favor of withdrawing CVS logs action.
15:01:32 <DanC> DONE: PatH to review new optionals definitions, if any.
15:01:40 <DanC> ACTION: DanC to write SOTD; work with EricP to publish
15:01:48 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc43
15:01:56 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
15:02:03 <patH> The echo is charming, charming.
15:02:07 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (4%)
15:02:42 <LeeF> Zakim, stop trying to make me look bad. 
15:02:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'stop trying to make me look bad', LeeF
15:05:14 <ericP> re removing xsi:type, some relevent lessons in the XML Schema 1.0 User Experiences Workshop report [[
15:05:17 <ericP> Constructs mentioned as falling outside the sweet spot for some or many data binding tools included mixed content, choice, substitution groups, and even simple-type restriction.
15:05:20 <ericP> ]]
15:05:23 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-schema-workshop/chairs-report XML Schema 1.0 User Experiences
15:05:36 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues
15:05:54 <ericP> i'll pass the word to C. M. Sperberg-McQueen anyways
15:06:21 <EliasT> DanC: Need to start thinking about how to justify going to candidate recommendation despite existing objections such as Network Inference's
15:07:11 <EliasT> DanC: we seems to be all systems go for publication.
15:07:55 <EliasT> Andy, what was your last statement?
15:08:25 <AndyS> I have some mods to make before LC
15:08:38 <EliasT> Thanks.
15:09:30 <EliasT> DanC: Everyone is welcome to review the LC, but we are obliged to get it reviews by certain people, such as W3C chairs.
15:09:33 <DanC> optionals changes pending
15:10:18 <EliasT> LeeF: there's a type in bNodeRef issue.
15:10:22 <Zakim> -Yoshio
15:10:42 <Zakim> +Yoshio
15:10:45 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:10:45 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC]
15:11:33 <SteveH> I can build the tests page again now too
15:11:51 <EliasT> DONE: ericP and SteveH can build the tests page in HTML.
15:12:10 <EliasT> DanC: Anybody wants to know how generate the HTML test results page?
15:12:39 <SteveH> no
15:12:50 <SteveH> Zakim, unmute me
15:12:53 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
15:13:40 <EliasT> ACTION: DanC to check after August on SteveH regarding test preparation for publication as WG Note
15:13:45 <jeen> Zakim, mute me
15:13:45 <Zakim> Jeen_Broekstra should now be muted
15:14:28 <EliasT> AndyS: no progress on AndyS to add the above graph test cases.
15:15:54 <EliasT> DanC: We have to be able to tell to the world that all of the feature of the spec have been implemented. I think that until we have tests with documented results, I won't feel comfortable saying so.
15:16:35 <EliasT> DanC: the other option is to claim that some vendor X has done so, but in our WG's case it should be better to do it ourselves.
15:16:36 <jeen> Zakim, unmute me
15:16:36 <Zakim> Jeen_Broekstra should no longer be muted
15:17:03 <EliasT> ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple
15:17:15 <EliasT> ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve
15:17:20 <EliasT> ACTION EricP: finish extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 test
15:17:40 <EliasT> Jeen: finished eating his cookie. (Reason for unmmuting himself)
15:17:56 <DanC> ADJOURN.
15:17:57 <Zakim> -DaveB
15:17:59 <Zakim> -Souri
15:18:00 <Zakim> -HowardK
15:18:02 <Zakim> -EliasT
15:18:03 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:18:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html DanC
15:18:06 <Zakim> -Kevin
15:18:08 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:18:09 <KevinW> KevinW has left #DAWG
15:18:11 <Zakim> -Jeen_Broekstra
15:18:27 <Zakim> -Yoshio
15:18:29 <EliasT> I have to reorg all of this into an email, correct DanC?
15:19:05 <DanC> hmm... EliasT, the machine-generated minutes are pretty good... http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html
15:19:33 <EliasT> excellent, btw, I readded the actions..
15:19:43 <EliasT> that were not done. Do they stay from previous meeting?
15:19:57 <DanC> I can take the -DRAFT- off... and it's traditional to have the full-text sent out in email (in case somebody POPs their mail and wants to read email on a plane)
15:20:19 <DaveB> DaveB has left #dawg
15:20:25 <DanC> yes, the minutes should include *all* oustanding action, both new and continued
15:20:50 <Zakim> -[MIT528]
15:21:33 <EliasT> when you say the full-text, you mean the IRC log and not the HTML from the generated log, right?
15:21:45 <DanC> EliasT, how about this: hang on here in IRC for 10 minutes while I tidy up the minutes in HTTP space; then send them to the WG, both a pointer and an attachemnt. OK?
15:22:02 <EliasT> oh ok, email attachment, sure.
15:22:10 <Zakim> -DanC
15:23:10 <AndyS> { P1 optional(P2) optional(P3) }
15:25:19 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
15:25:39 <AndyS> { (P1 optional(P2)) optional(P3) }
15:26:34 <DanC> ok, EliasT 1.7 of http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-dawg-minutes.html is ready
15:27:13 <EliasT> k.
15:28:38 <EliasT> done.
15:32:43 <EliasT> EliasT has left #dawg
15:34:10 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:34:11 <Zakim> -PatH
15:34:56 <Zakim> -LeeF
15:34:57 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
15:34:59 <Zakim> Attendees were HowardK, AndyS, EliasT, LeeF, DaveB, DanC, Yoshio, Jeen_Broekstra, Kevin, SteveH, PatH, EricP, Souri
16:02:11 <DanC> hmm... EliasT, I don't see the minutes.
16:02:48 <LeeF> I'm talking to him -- try to find out what happened
16:02:54 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #dawg
16:03:05 <EliasT> DanC, I've sent the minutes already.
16:03:17 <DanC> I don't see them in my inbox nor in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/thread.html
16:03:35 <EliasT> I received a confirmation from the w3c mailing list manager regarding permission to post publicly.
16:03:44 <DanC> hmm
16:03:50 <EliasT> let me try again
16:04:04 <EliasT> maybe the attachment is too bi?
16:04:05 <EliasT> big
16:04:14 <EliasT> and needs aproval by list-admin?
16:04:24 <LeeF> Doubtful...
16:04:25 <DanC> it's just a few K, no?
16:04:41 <DanC> there's a message size limit, but it's more like 10MB
16:04:53 <ericP> one of the mailhubs has been conjested in the past
16:05:04 <ericP> i've waited up to 40 mins for distribution
16:05:06 <DanC> it could just be in a queue somewhere
16:05:20 <EliasT> I'll check later and resend if necessary
16:05:24 <DanC> do you have the message-id of the one you sent, EliasT ?
16:05:28 <EliasT> http://www.w3.org/Mail/review?id=22dba7ca1914c55cec21
16:05:37 <ericP> s/mailhub/mailhub or list manager/
16:07:47 <DanC> I guess I'll leave it be for a while.
16:16:48 <AndyS> EricP - made changes to optional, makign sure the chnages are minimal
16:20:04 <AndyS> It might be better to swap group and optional sections but no matter.
16:20:07 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#OptionalMatchingDefn
16:20:23 <AndyS> Not pretty - but minimal :-)
17:00:48 <ericP> weak, just about to talk to Andy
17:13:01 <Yoshio> Yoshio has left #dawg
17:30:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dawg
19:09:47 <EliasT> EliasT has left #dawg