IRC log of swbp on 2005-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:50 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-swbp-irc

13:56:00 [Ralph]

Meeting: SWBPD HTML TF

13:56:06 [Ralph]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jul/0007.html

13:56:17 [Ralph]

Previous Meeting: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-swbp-minutes.html

13:56:55 [benadida]

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13:58:58 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started

13:59:05 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:59:15 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:11:27 [MarkB_]

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14:16:56 [Zakim]

+??P6

14:16:58 [Ralph]

Ben and Ralph talk about microformats while waiting for others

14:17:08 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

14:17:08 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

14:18:49 [Ralph]

Topic: Action Review

14:19:44 [Ralph]

Mark: I met again today with IPTC, followup from Friday meeting

14:19:52 [Ralph]

... they're keen to progress further

14:20:07 [Ralph]

Topic: IPTC Meeting Notes

14:20:14 [Ralph]

Mark: Friday meeting was very positive

14:20:33 [Ralph]

... Misha focussed the discussion on his document first, then we dived into details

14:20:48 [Ralph]

... IPTC wants a small set of relationships between data

14:20:58 [Ralph]

... they want to make statements about the relationships between other tags

14:21:27 [Ralph]

... reification is a big issue for them; they want to give [provenance] -- who assigned a 'tag', with what confidence, etc.

14:21:51 [Ralph]

... they're very open to RDF/A, as long as they get a compact syntax

14:22:02 [Ralph]

... in their proposed syntax there is a lot of level-mixing

14:22:24 [Ralph]

... e.g. attributes whose subject is a statement and other attributes whose subject is something else

14:22:31 [Ralph]

... they admitted this could get confusing to people

14:23:36 [Ralph]

... this can help us, as it's a real meaty application

14:23:45 [Ralph]

... I felt very positive about this

14:24:03 [Ralph]

... they have a tight timescale; their next meeting is in October and they need to publish documents beforehand

14:24:14 [Ralph]

... 3 Oct is their deadline

14:24:26 [Ralph]

Ben: how will they do RDF/A without XHTML2?

14:24:32 [Ralph]

Mark: they have several languages

14:24:41 [Ralph]

... one is comparable to XHTML2; it marks up a news story

14:24:55 [Ralph]

... they're not completely convinced that XHTML2 gives them everything they need

14:25:15 [Ralph]

... they have a suite of other languages; e.g. SportsML that sit on their base language

14:25:28 [Ralph]

... then they have another layer that provides alternative formats for a document

14:25:44 [Ralph]

... a wrapper describes the 'package' of formats available

14:26:17 [benadida]

... document format to wrap other documents

14:26:28 [benadida]

... another format: many documents that make up a news story

14:26:46 [benadida]

... 3 document formats. XHTML2 might replace the bottom one, but not others.

14:27:07 [benadida]

... RDF/A was designed as general purpose attribute syntax

14:27:43 [benadida]

Ben: can RDF/A be added to XHTML1

14:28:00 [benadida]

Mark: there's been discussion about this.

14:28:31 [benadida]

... there are ways to mark up DanBri's examples using XHTML1

14:29:38 [benadida]

Ben: very interesting to think about this issue. Could it be accomplished with XHTML1 that renders correctly in the browser?

14:30:30 [benadida]

Mark: property is not an XHTML1 attribute, but it could be added as a module.

14:31:05 [benadida]

Ben: how is XHTML1 modularization going to interact with validators?

14:31:17 [benadida]

Mark: there are probably no XHTML 1.1 validators, because there is no schema yet

14:31:40 [benadida]

... XHTML 1.1 will have modularization, in order to replace XHTML 1.0.

14:31:49 [benadida]

... DTDs for XHTML 1.0 will be replaced by XHTML 1.1 schemas

14:32:47 [benadida]

... tried using XHTML 1.1 architecture to combine multiple modules and add XForms. It didn't work.

14:33:12 [benadida]

... Xforms is a bit more complicated of a use case.

14:33:26 [benadida]

... currently tidying up XHTML 1.1 modularization. Later XHTML2 using same techniques.

14:33:31 [benadida]

Ben: keep us posted on this

14:34:00 [benadida]

... it might help for adoption

14:34:13 [benadida]

Mark: tricky thing is QNAME issue for predicates.

14:34:38 [benadida]

... could argue that there's nothing to stop you using Qnames in REL.

14:34:48 [benadida]

... same as "DC.creator"

14:35:19 [benadida]

Ben: what's the current direction on qnames everywhere?

14:35:53 [benadida]

Mark: would be great to have qnames and URIs interchangeable. square brackets won't fly either.

14:36:05 [benadida]

... need to add qabout and qhref

14:36:08 [benadida]

... or qcontent

14:36:33 [Ralph]

Ben: in terms of consistency, if we add qabout and qhref do we also need qrel?

14:36:41 [Ralph]

Mark: yes

14:37:00 [Ralph]

... [even though] it would be painful for every attribute to have a q-version

14:37:56 [Ralph]

Ben: if we do settle on the qabout, qhref direction then adding qrel would settle the problem

14:38:11 [Ralph]

Mark: and existing rel would be a kind of local identifier

14:38:44 [Ralph]

... could provide a neat answer to the backwards compatibility issue

14:40:59 [Ralph]

... might also be solvable by putting constraints on the namespace prefixes; e.g. insist that the namespace prefixes used within a document not match [known] URI schemes

14:41:33 [Ralph]

... it will become common to sprinkle qnames throughout HTML documents in the future

14:43:27 [Ralph]

... if we do choose the q-attribute route, I prefer 'qcontent' and leave 'href' alone

14:44:22 [Ralph]

Ben: any other issues from IPTC discussion?

14:44:37 [Ralph]

Mark: we need to settle our view on reification

14:45:03 [Ralph]

... we've revised the interpretation of ID so many times in this design

14:45:12 [Ralph]

... though I quite like the idea that ID refers to the _statement_

14:45:57 [Ralph]

... IPTC does want to be able to say _who_ made a statement, _when_ the statement was made, how confident they are of the statement, etc.

14:46:23 [Ralph]

Ben: did custom attributes come up?

14:46:33 [Ralph]

Mark: sort-of, but I described it as solved

14:47:27 [Ralph]

... but there is a desire to treat, for example, role= as identifying a property/value pair

14:48:02 [Ralph]

... other things like media-type would benefit from such an approach as well

14:48:21 [Ralph]

... IPTC's requirement is for compactness

14:48:36 [Ralph]

... they don't like 'property=x content=y' on every element

14:49:27 [Ralph]

... They've also defined elements ala 'dc:subject' with attributes

14:49:30 [Ralph]

... very RDF-like

14:49:47 [Ralph]

... they also have the problem of Schema validation

14:52:45 [Ralph]

Ben: it would be good to summarize our current thinking on these 3 issues in an email

14:53:19 [Ralph]

Mark: we could use DanBri's samples to help this discussion

14:53:52 [Ralph]

... I've already noticed some possible improvements after trying to write DanBri's examples

14:54:15 [Ralph]

... IPTC has also promised some examples, including some very big cases

14:54:26 [Ralph]

... to help us understand the compactness issue

14:55:26 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements

14:58:13 [Ralph]

Ralph: would Misha be interested in formally joining the WG?

14:58:46 [Ralph]

Mark: perhaps. They're certainly willing to attend some TF telecons.

14:59:09 [Ralph]

... but they probably won't want to attend every meeting

15:03:24 [Ralph]

Mark: there may be applications that want to do metadata extraction by traversing an infoset via DOM

15:09:58 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

15:10:07 [MarkB_]

sorry!

15:14:19 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:14:21 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:14:23 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended

15:14:24 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, MarkB_

15:14:30 [benadida]

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15:15:17 [Ralph]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to coordinate with mark for next week's meeting

15:15:35 [Ralph]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben to pull in action items from prev meetings

15:15:46 [Ralph]

[DONE] ACTION: danbri make examples

15:16:04 [Ralph]

[CONTINES] ACTION: danbri record an issue re # vs /

15:16:13 [Ralph]

[DONE] ACTION: ericm or danbri circulate results of london f2f meeting at IPTC

15:16:20 [Ralph]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: jjc to circulate www conf paper

15:16:29 [Ralph]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A

15:16:36 [Ralph]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A

15:16:53 [Ralph]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki

15:17:01 [Ralph]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Steven send wording for 23.2 to mailing list

15:17:14 [Ralph]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to notify working group of upcoming WD of Note

15:18:06 [Ralph]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben to send email about GRDDL profile approach to XHTML2 namespace URL document

15:18:38 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0032.html GRDDL profile for XHTML2 namespace URL document [BenA 2005-06-21]

15:18:57 [Ralph]

[CONTINUES] ACTION: take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html

15:19:29 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

15:19:29 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item:

15:19:29 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements [1]

15:19:29 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-swbp-irc#T14-55-26

15:19:43 [RRSAgent]

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15:19:43 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-swbp-irc

15:19:50 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make logs world-visible

15:19:57 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:19:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-swbp-minutes.html Ralph

15:20:15 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

15:20:15 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items