20:00:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-irc
20:00:13 <Zakim> +Alex_Li
20:00:18 <Michael> rrsagent, make log world
20:00:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:00:55 <Yvette> Yvette has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:58 <Zakim> +??P4
20:01:06 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:11 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
20:01:14 <Zakim> +Yvette_Hoitink
20:01:18 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
20:01:28 <Michael> zakim, ??P4 is Gregg
20:01:28 <Zakim> +Gregg; got it
20:01:34 <Zakim> +[dialpad]
20:01:35 <bengt> bengt has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:44 <rscano> zakim, [dialpad] is Roberto_Scano
20:01:44 <Zakim> +Roberto_Scano; got it
20:01:48 <sebastiano> sebastiano has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:49 <Michael> zakim, mute Roberto
20:01:49 <Zakim> Roberto_Scano should now be muted
20:02:11 <Zakim> +??P3
20:02:18 <Zakim> +??P8
20:02:19 <Zakim> +??P9
20:02:22 <Michael> zakim, IPCaller is Chris
20:02:22 <Zakim> +Chris; got it
20:02:26 <Zakim> +Christophe_Strobbe
20:02:33 <bengt> zakim, ??P3 is probably Bengt_Farre
20:02:33 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre?; got it
20:02:34 <rscano> zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
20:02:35 <Zakim> ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
20:02:40 <ben_> zakim, ??P8 may be Ben
20:02:40 <Zakim> +Ben?; got it
20:03:00 <Zakim> -Ben?
20:03:11 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:03:21 <ben_> zakim, ??P9 is Ben
20:03:21 <Zakim> +Ben; got it
20:03:24 <Zakim> -Gregg
20:03:25 <Michael> zakim, microsoft is Mike
20:03:25 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
20:03:33 <Zakim> -Mike
20:03:35 <Yvette> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alex_Li, Chris, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre?, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe
20:03:35 <ben_> zakim, who is here?
20:03:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alex_Li, Chris, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre?, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe
20:03:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see sebastiano, bengt, Becky, Yvette, RRSAgent, ChrisR, Zakim, rscano, David, joeclark, Christophe, rellero, LucaMascaro, ben_, Michael
20:03:42 <Zakim> +??P11
20:04:04 <LucaMascaro> zakim, ??P11 is LucaMascaro
20:04:04 <Zakim> +LucaMascaro; got it
20:04:07 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:04:14 <LucaMascaro> zakim, mute me
20:04:14 <Zakim> LucaMascaro should now be muted
20:04:20 <Michael> zakim, Microsoft is Mike
20:04:20 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
20:04:32 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
20:05:05 <Zakim> +??P4
20:05:11 <rellero> zakim, ??P4 is rellero
20:05:11 <Zakim> +rellero; got it
20:05:14 <Zakim> +[IBM]
20:05:24 <Michael> zakim, IBM is Andi
20:05:24 <Zakim> +Andi; got it
20:05:33 <ben_> mapping document: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/30-sc-techniques-mapping.html
20:05:34 <Michael> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:05:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alex_Li, Chris, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre?, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, LucaMascaro (muted), Mike,
20:05:38 <Zakim> ... David_MacDonald, rellero, Andi
20:05:56 <Andi> Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:56 <rscano> ok :)
20:05:57 <ben_> agenda?
20:06:04 <Michael> zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
20:06:04 <Zakim> ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
20:06:23 <ben_> agenda+ TTF Update
20:06:34 <ben_> agenda+ Harvest techniques and/or tests beginning with Guideline 2.1 
20:07:07 <sebastiano> zakim, who is here?
20:07:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alex_Li, Chris, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre?, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, LucaMascaro (muted), Mike,
20:07:10 <Zakim> ... David_MacDonald, rellero, Andi
20:07:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Andi, sebastiano, bengt, Becky, Yvette, RRSAgent, ChrisR, Zakim, rscano, David, joeclark, Christophe, rellero, LucaMascaro, ben_, Michael
20:07:16 <Michael> zakim, take up item 1
20:07:16 <Zakim> agendum 1. "TTF Update" taken up [from ben_]
20:07:16 <ben_> zakim, take up agendum 1
20:07:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "TTF Update" taken up [from ben_]
20:07:31 <ben_> scribe: ben_
20:07:48 <ben_> scribe: ben
20:08:08 <ben_> chair: Michael_Cooper
20:09:16 <ben_> mc: Wednesday calls to focus more on testing in coming weeks, would like to spend more time on Thursday calls on techniques as well as we go forward.
20:10:27 <ben_> scripting tests are a current priority/concern
20:10:49 <ben_> RRSAgent, generate minutes
20:10:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben_
20:12:31 <Michael> ack alex
20:12:31 <ben_> Topic: WCAG Weekly Telecon
20:13:21 <ChrisR> q+
20:13:23 <ben_> discussing: is it possible to be comprehensive with script techniques testing?
20:14:42 <ben_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0005.html
20:14:44 <Zakim> +??P13
20:15:33 <ben_> zakim, ??P13 is Sebastiano
20:15:33 <Zakim> +Sebastiano; got it
20:17:28 <ben_> description of some of the issues around scripting techniques: 06http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0015.html01
20:17:37 <ben_> zakim, next item
20:17:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Harvest techniques and/or tests beginning with Guideline 2.1" taken up [from ben_]
20:18:04 <ben_> sc to techniques mapping: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/30-sc-techniques-mapping.html
20:19:42 <ben_> 2.1 L1 SC1
20:20:54 <ben_> topic: 2.1 L1 SC1
20:21:23 <ben_> bg: onclick as mechanism to get focus
20:21:31 <ben_> bg: can talk about tabindex, though UA issues
20:21:53 <rscano> with this issue, an event with onkeypress without onclick is valid, but an event with onclick without onkeypress is not valid... so no device independence...
20:22:20 <ben_> bg: anchors on image buttons
20:22:36 <ben_> topic: 2.1 L3 SC1
20:23:45 <ben_> mc: technique saying you can't use server-side image maps
20:24:34 <ben_> bg: use of <map> to allow keyboard navigation
20:24:57 <rscano> what about GIS web applications?
20:25:31 <ben_> s/saying you can't use server-side image maps/recommending redundant links for server-side image maps
20:27:05 <ben_> yh: keyboard access to controls used in mapping programs
20:27:35 <ben_> topic 2.2 L1 SC1
20:27:47 <ben_> topic: 2.2 L1 SC1
20:28:42 <ben_> yh: general technique to show time remaining04
20:29:07 <ben_> yh: server-side tech to remember settings related to timeouts
20:29:29 <ben_> bg: creating a time out with a way to turn it off
20:29:52 <ben_> bg: creating a way to extend or modify time w/ script
20:30:44 <joeclark> joeclark has left #wai-wcag
20:30:55 <ben_> topic: 2.2 L2 SC1
20:31:21 <ben_> dm: need to cover animated gifs
20:31:57 <ben_> bg: scripting technique to implement blinking via script w/ a way to turn it off
20:32:22 <ben_> yh: css technique that lets you switch between using animated vs. static images
20:33:07 <ben_> topic: 2.2 L2 SC2
20:33:34 <ben_> bg: script tech for first SC also applies
20:33:39 <ben_> mc: animated gif as well
20:33:55 <LucaMascaro> zakim, unmute me
20:33:55 <Zakim> LucaMascaro should no longer be muted
20:34:02 <LucaMascaro> q+
20:34:07 <ben_> yh: pausing multimedia (author issue or user agent issue?)
20:34:15 <rscano> depends
20:34:31 <ben_> dm: use of script to make text shake, there should be a script technique to make it stop shaking.
20:34:49 <rscano> depends from the object proprieties and how the browser embed it 
20:35:20 <Michael> ack chris
20:35:25 <ben_> ack Luca
20:35:44 <rscano> Luca?
20:35:50 <ben_> al: techniques around ticker-tape scrolling?
20:36:12 <LucaMascaro> zakim, mute me
20:36:12 <Zakim> LucaMascaro should now be muted
20:36:40 <LucaMascaro> I suggest to use a SMIL file to general technique
20:37:28 <rscano> other object that can move are: java ticker, object (flash animations, multimedia objects), markup (SVG, ...), CSS...
20:37:39 <David> zakim, mute me
20:37:39 <Zakim> David_MacDonald should now be muted
20:37:41 <LucaMascaro> I am a problem with microphone
20:38:10 <rscano> blink attribute
20:38:42 <ben_> topic: 2.2 L3 SC1
20:39:11 <ben_> yh: general technique on how to design content without requiring timing
20:39:28 <rscano> online test can be an example
20:39:33 <ben_> mc: address online testing
20:40:36 <ben_> topic: 2.2 L3 SC2
20:40:54 <ben_> yh: meta-refresh technique
20:41:06 <ben_> bg: general scripting technique for turning things off
20:41:23 <ben_> mc: javascript alerts?
20:42:04 <ben_> bg: issues around allowing users to turn off alerts
20:42:50 <ben_> bg: might be a technique to allow people to prevent alerts
20:44:26 <ben_> topic: 2.2 L3 SC3
20:44:59 <ben_> yh: server-side techniques around keeping data while awaiting re-authentication
20:45:00 <rscano> this is a server-side issue that we cannot charge on the web content developer
20:45:16 <ben_> yh: store intermediate results on multi-part surveys
20:45:48 <ben_> (stored on the server)
20:46:34 <ben_> bg: checking to find out if timeout is about to occur and allowing users to submit before timeout occurs
20:47:39 <ben_> topic: 2.3 L1 SC1
20:48:12 <ben_> yh: use robots.txt to exclude violating content from search engines
20:48:50 <ben_> yh: general techniques for how to provide a good warning and using entry pages
20:48:55 <rscano> ora a door-page
20:49:04 <ben_> mc: issues around controlling path users use to get to a page
20:49:29 <rscano> there are no PICS Label that can do this?
20:50:15 <ben_> mc: scripting technique that can check preferences before serving problem content
20:50:26 <ben_> mb: splash page that warns of issue before playing
20:51:23 <ben_> yh: use a checkbox on a page that presents a warning before presenting content
20:51:43 <ben_> al: just don't do it
20:51:57 <David> That's should be a general techniue
20:52:37 <ben_> bc: general technique for how to evaluate for problematic content
20:52:44 <ben_> topic: 2.3 L3 SC1
20:55:00 <ben_> mc: foreground/background issues w/ HTML/CSS on this?
20:55:30 <ben_> mb: general technique - some way to determine whether or not they are violating this
20:57:18 <ben_> guide doc/general techniques need to address what the problem space around these criterion are
20:57:26 <ben_> topic: 2.4 L1 SC1
20:57:54 <ChrisR> ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
20:58:00 <Zakim> -Chris
20:58:01 <ben_> yh: <link> and <a> in HTML
20:58:27 <ben_> yh: also header elements
20:59:07 <ben_> yh: lists and groups of links
20:59:16 <ben_> bg: can reference DHTML Roadmap work here
21:00:15 <ben_> mc: HTML/Script technqiue for javascript URL (sometimes navigational feature, sometimes not) -- if you're using this as a navigational feature, don't.
21:00:38 <ben_> yh: onclick event handlers that take you to another page 
21:01:08 <ben_> mc: autosubmit combo boxes
21:01:39 <ben_> topic: 2.4 L2 SC1
21:02:16 <ben_> yh: should also be one on table of contents
21:02:26 <ben_> yh: server-side tech about using search engines
21:02:38 <ben_> yh: general techniques about linking to related content 
21:02:57 <ben_> yh: how to assign effective metadata 
21:03:13 <ben_> yh: allowing users to search as well as browse
21:04:05 <ben_> bg: script tech from a list apart - use link element to create drop-down menus
21:04:25 <ben_> yh: providing links to most popular content
21:04:45 <David> zakim, unmute me
21:04:45 <Zakim> David_MacDonald should no longer be muted
21:04:52 <ben_> topic: 2.4 L2 SC2
21:05:06 <ben_> bg: CSS to allow keyboard users to view skip links
21:06:28 <ben_> yh: perhaps revise HTML 9.7 to be more general? (currently applies only to link groups)
21:06:56 <ben_> mc: ideally, using <div> would help
21:07:03 <ben_> yh: using headers helps 
21:07:12 <ben_> mc: using tables can also be helpful
21:08:06 <ben_> yh: technique to hide repeated content?
21:08:26 <ben_> topic: 2.4 L2 SC3
21:08:51 <ben_> yh: general technique for writing a good title
21:09:15 <ben_> yh: general technique about titles being unique?
21:09:26 <ben_> topic 2.4 L2 SC4
21:10:30 <ben_> yh: use spacer gif in link text so that it is not visible
21:11:01 <Yvette> yh: where alt for spacer gif gives additional clarification
21:11:07 <ben_> topic: 2.4 L3 SC1
21:11:56 <ben_> yh: negative technique around illogical HTML source order corrected by CSS
21:12:10 <ben_> mc: for imagemaps, area element should exist in source code in reasonable order
21:12:47 <ben_> dm: focus order for javascript menus
21:13:41 <ben_> yh: HTML forms, if multiple submit buttons, be sure the first one is the one you want to be default (may fit better under 2.1)
21:13:59 <ben_> topic: 2.4 L3 SC2
21:14:09 <ben_> dm: breadcrumb navigation (server-side)
21:15:02 <ben_> could also be HTML
21:15:24 <ben_> yh: using icons and color to differentiate sections of a site
21:17:28 <ben_> breadcrumb technique above may fit better under general
21:18:04 <ben_> mc: techniques around use of <link> element 
21:18:24 <ben_> yh: negative technique around breaking the back button?
21:18:49 <ben_> yh: using different colors on visited vs. unvisited links
21:19:30 <David> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/30-sc-techniques-mapping.html
21:19:31 <rscano> and different styles, not only colour ;-)
21:20:02 <David> http://www.eramp.com/david/general/
21:20:27 <Becky> scribe: becky
21:21:26 <Becky> topic: 2.5 L1 SC1
21:22:07 <Becky> dm: see #1 in url posted above
21:22:37 <Becky> mc: client side validation and scripting alert
21:23:00 <Becky> mc: client side validation and add error text via the DOM
21:24:03 <Becky> dm: validation of credit card formats
21:24:22 <Becky> yh: gen. tech for writing understandable 401 or 404 pages
21:25:01 <Becky> mb: provide tech. to provide a guess when desired page is not found "smart 404"
21:25:02 <David> http://www.realisis.ca/darcy
21:25:09 <David> here is myfavorite 404
21:25:10 <rscano> note that not all the server admin let to customize these pages
21:25:44 <Becky> bc: techs for when move a url to redirect to correct page
21:26:15 <Becky> topic: 2.5 L2 SC2
21:26:37 <Becky> mc: some of above listed techs might fall better under hear
21:26:44 <Becky> yh: google "did you mean" example
21:27:12 <Becky> yh: provide a list of words that are similar; type 3 letters and provide a list of choices that begin with those letters
21:28:16 <Becky> yh: use soundex codes
21:28:34 <LucaMascaro> Google suggest? http://www.google.com/webhp?complete=1&hl=en
21:29:13 <Becky> yh: show similar search results/matches
21:29:41 <Yvette> yh: especially if exact matches are not found
21:29:57 <Becky> dm: in page link from error message to field with the error
21:30:02 <LucaMascaro> a featured link in amazon?
21:30:12 <Becky> cs: query enhancements
21:30:41 <Becky> topic: GL 2.5 L2 SC3
21:31:11 <rscano> bye
21:31:18 <rscano> rscano has left #wai-wcag
21:31:23 <Becky> yh: gen tech. about dividing processes into steps and allowing forward and backward nav.
21:31:25 <Zakim> -Roberto_Scano
21:31:58 <Becky> dm: return a new form with only the incorrect fields available
21:32:41 <Becky> bg: alert/pup-up with "Are you sure?" and ok, cancel
21:33:09 <Becky> dm: programmatically provide supplemental information - tooltips with addn. info or help
21:33:18 <Becky> bc: is a bugzilla feature
21:33:49 <Becky> yh: server side tech that allows users to log back in, see past transactions and cancel
21:34:14 <Becky> topic: GL 2.5 L3 SC1
21:34:36 <Becky> dm: confirmation window opens to show user action has completed
21:35:09 <Becky> yh: provide spell checking
21:35:27 <Becky> mc: help bubbles 
21:35:31 <Becky> yh: tooltips using title
21:35:45 <Becky> dm: do not use same words or letter combinations to begin each item of the list
21:36:26 <Becky> yh: providing help link on every page
21:36:50 <Becky> yh: (annoying) assistant in the corner of the page
21:37:41 <Becky> topic: GL 3.1 L1 SC1
21:38:35 <Becky> cs: html text directionality
21:38:58 <Becky> mc: use of meta tag with content-language
21:39:06 <Becky> mc: not sure that is supported/valid
21:39:23 <Becky> cs: text dirction:  http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-lang.html#ri20040728.121940236
21:39:23 <Becky> <Becky> mc: not sure that is supported/valid
21:40:27 <Becky> mc: not sure that meta tag with content-language is supported
21:41:29 <Becky> yh: tech about how to use templates - put language in just once in the template. this could also be used in many other areas
21:41:40 <Becky> topic: GL 3.1 L2 SC1
21:41:57 <Becky> cs: text directionality also applies here
21:42:31 <David> gotta go...cheers...
21:42:40 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
21:43:22 <Becky> yh: what to do if specify more than one language in header?
21:43:28 <Becky> mc: needs more discussion
21:43:45 <Becky> topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC1
21:44:25 <Becky> (note) we are working from mapping doc url at beginning of discussion - it may not map exactly with current draft)
21:44:42 <Becky> mc: link rel="glossary"
21:45:53 <Becky> bg: provide definitions via bubble help
21:46:17 <Becky> yh: gen tech to provide hyperlinks to relavent online dictionarys
21:46:39 <Becky> topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC2 
21:47:38 <Becky>  bg: provide a way to highlight important words in the content via button press and scripting/css
21:47:48 <Becky> yh: definition lists
21:48:14 <Becky> mc: via internal linking
21:48:46 <Becky> topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC3
21:49:01 <Becky> yh: same techns that we already have for finding definitions
21:49:54 <Becky> mc: expanded form presented first time it is used and acronym is presented in parends after - then use acronym in subsequent references
21:50:21 <Becky> yh: provide search engine to look up - can be used for several of these SC
21:50:38 <Becky> topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC4
21:51:14 <Becky> yh: tech how to mark up section titles
21:51:25 <Becky> bg: gen tech of how to write descriptive titles
21:52:01 <Becky> topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC 5
21:52:29 <ben_> lots of general techniques for this one - http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-GENERAL-20050630/meaning-supplements.html
21:52:33 <Zakim> -rellero
21:52:45 <Becky> mb: provide recommendations on how to provide the alternatives
21:53:31 <Becky> yh: font load the document - make first paragraph the summary 
21:53:49 <Becky> yh: css tech about how to make sure people notice the text summary by using diff. presentation style
21:54:18 <Becky> yh: style sheet switcher or script tech. to switch between diff. version of a doc.
21:54:42 <sebastiano> I've to go, cheers
21:55:17 <Becky> yh: make sure spoken version of text content is not started automatically in the background or only at the user's request
21:55:51 <Zakim> -Sebastiano
21:56:11 <Becky> got thru harvesting techniques through GL 3.1
21:58:16 <Becky> rsagent, generate minutes
21:58:21 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
21:58:22 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre?
21:58:23 <Zakim> -Andi
21:58:24 <LucaMascaro> bye
21:58:25 <Zakim> -Mike
21:58:25 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
21:58:26 <Zakim> -Yvette_Hoitink
21:58:26 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
21:58:28 <Zakim> -Ben
21:58:31 <Zakim> -LucaMascaro
21:58:32 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:58:33 <Zakim> Attendees were Alex_Li, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Gregg, Roberto_Scano, Chris, Christophe_Strobbe, Bengt_Farre?, Ben?, Ben, Mike, LucaMascaro, David_MacDonald,
21:58:35 <Zakim> ... rellero, Andi, Sebastiano
21:59:04 <bengt> bengt has left #wai-wcag
21:59:28 <Becky> rrsagent, generate minutes
21:59:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html Becky
21:59:44 <ben_> Regrets: Gregg_Vanderheiden, Matt_May, Tim_Boland, Roberto_Castaldo, Takayuki_Watanabe
21:59:52 <ben_> Zakim, bye
21:59:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:00:00 <ben_> RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben_
22:00:58 <Christophe> Christophe has left #wai-wcag
22:01:13 <ben_> Meeting: WCAG Weekly Telecon
22:01:20 <ben_> RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:01:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben_
22:02:19 <ben_> RRSAgent, bye
22:02:19 <RRSAgent> I see no action items