IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-07-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:00:12 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:13 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-irc
20:00:13 [Zakim]: +Alex_Li
20:00:18 [Michael]: rrsagent, make log world
20:00:51 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
20:00:55 [Yvette]: Yvette has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:58 [Zakim]: +??P4
20:01:06 [Becky]: Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:11 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
20:01:14 [Zakim]: +Yvette_Hoitink
20:01:18 [Zakim]: +Becky_Gibson
20:01:28 [Michael]: zakim, ??P4 is Gregg
20:01:28 [Zakim]: +Gregg; got it
20:01:34 [Zakim]: +[dialpad]
20:01:35 [bengt]: bengt has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:44 [rscano]: zakim, [dialpad] is Roberto_Scano
20:01:44 [Zakim]: +Roberto_Scano; got it
20:01:48 [sebastiano]: sebastiano has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:49 [Michael]: zakim, mute Roberto
20:01:49 [Zakim]: Roberto_Scano should now be muted
20:02:11 [Zakim]: +??P3
20:02:18 [Zakim]: +??P8
20:02:19 [Zakim]: +??P9
20:02:22 [Michael]: zakim, IPCaller is Chris
20:02:22 [Zakim]: +Chris; got it
20:02:26 [Zakim]: +Christophe_Strobbe
20:02:33 [bengt]: zakim, ??P3 is probably Bengt_Farre
20:02:33 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre?; got it
20:02:34 [rscano]: zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
20:02:35 [Zakim]: ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
20:02:40 [ben_]: zakim, ??P8 may be Ben
20:02:40 [Zakim]: +Ben?; got it
20:03:00 [Zakim]: -Ben?
20:03:11 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
20:03:21 [ben_]: zakim, ??P9 is Ben
20:03:21 [Zakim]: +Ben; got it
20:03:24 [Zakim]: -Gregg
20:03:25 [Michael]: zakim, microsoft is Mike
20:03:25 [Zakim]: +Mike; got it
20:03:33 [Zakim]: -Mike
20:03:35 [Yvette]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:35 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Alex_Li, Chris, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre?, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe
20:03:35 [ben_]: zakim, who is here?
20:03:38 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Alex_Li, Chris, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre?, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe
20:03:40 [Zakim]: On IRC I see sebastiano, bengt, Becky, Yvette, RRSAgent, ChrisR, Zakim, rscano, David, joeclark, Christophe, rellero, LucaMascaro, ben_, Michael
20:03:42 [Zakim]: +??P11
20:04:04 [LucaMascaro]: zakim, ??P11 is LucaMascaro
20:04:04 [Zakim]: +LucaMascaro; got it
20:04:07 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
20:04:14 [LucaMascaro]: zakim, mute me
20:04:14 [Zakim]: LucaMascaro should now be muted
20:04:20 [Michael]: zakim, Microsoft is Mike
20:04:20 [Zakim]: +Mike; got it
20:04:32 [Zakim]: +David_MacDonald
20:05:05 [Zakim]: +??P4
20:05:11 [rellero]: zakim, ??P4 is rellero
20:05:11 [Zakim]: +rellero; got it
20:05:14 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
20:05:24 [Michael]: zakim, IBM is Andi
20:05:24 [Zakim]: +Andi; got it
20:05:33 [ben_]: mapping document: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/30-sc-techniques-mapping.html
20:05:34 [Michael]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:05:34 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Alex_Li, Chris, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre?, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, LucaMascaro (muted), Mike,
20:05:38 [Zakim]: ... David_MacDonald, rellero, Andi
20:05:56 [Andi]: Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:56 [rscano]: ok :)
20:05:57 [ben_]: agenda?
20:06:04 [Michael]: zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
20:06:04 [Zakim]: ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
20:06:23 [ben_]: agenda+ TTF Update
20:06:34 [ben_]: agenda+ Harvest techniques and/or tests beginning with Guideline 2.1
20:07:07 [sebastiano]: zakim, who is here?
20:07:08 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Alex_Li, Chris, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre?, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, LucaMascaro (muted), Mike,
20:07:10 [Zakim]: ... David_MacDonald, rellero, Andi
20:07:11 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Andi, sebastiano, bengt, Becky, Yvette, RRSAgent, ChrisR, Zakim, rscano, David, joeclark, Christophe, rellero, LucaMascaro, ben_, Michael
20:07:16 [Michael]: zakim, take up item 1
20:07:16 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "TTF Update" taken up [from ben_]
20:07:16 [ben_]: zakim, take up agendum 1
20:07:17 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "TTF Update" taken up [from ben_]
20:07:31 [ben_]: scribe: ben_
20:07:48 [ben_]: scribe: ben
20:08:08 [ben_]: chair: Michael_Cooper
20:09:16 [ben_]: mc: Wednesday calls to focus more on testing in coming weeks, would like to spend more time on Thursday calls on techniques as well as we go forward.
20:10:27 [ben_]: scripting tests are a current priority/concern
20:10:49 [ben_]: RRSAgent, generate minutes
20:10:49 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben_
20:12:31 [Michael]: ack alex
20:12:31 [ben_]: Topic: WCAG Weekly Telecon
20:13:21 [ChrisR]: q+
20:13:23 [ben_]: discussing: is it possible to be comprehensive with script techniques testing?
20:14:42 [ben_]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0005.html
20:14:44 [Zakim]: +??P13
20:15:33 [ben_]: zakim, ??P13 is Sebastiano
20:15:33 [Zakim]: +Sebastiano; got it
20:17:28 [ben_]: description of some of the issues around scripting techniques: 06http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JulSep/0015.html01
20:17:37 [ben_]: zakim, next item
20:17:37 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Harvest techniques and/or tests beginning with Guideline 2.1" taken up [from ben_]
20:18:04 [ben_]: sc to techniques mapping: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/30-sc-techniques-mapping.html
20:19:42 [ben_]: 2.1 L1 SC1
20:20:54 [ben_]: topic: 2.1 L1 SC1
20:21:23 [ben_]: bg: onclick as mechanism to get focus
20:21:31 [ben_]: bg: can talk about tabindex, though UA issues
20:21:53 [rscano]: with this issue, an event with onkeypress without onclick is valid, but an event with onclick without onkeypress is not valid... so no device independence...
20:22:20 [ben_]: bg: anchors on image buttons
20:22:36 [ben_]: topic: 2.1 L3 SC1
20:23:45 [ben_]: mc: technique saying you can't use server-side image maps
20:24:34 [ben_]: bg: use of <map> to allow keyboard navigation
20:24:57 [rscano]: what about GIS web applications?
20:25:31 [ben_]: s/saying you can't use server-side image maps/recommending redundant links for server-side image maps
20:27:05 [ben_]: yh: keyboard access to controls used in mapping programs
20:27:35 [ben_]: topic 2.2 L1 SC1
20:27:47 [ben_]: topic: 2.2 L1 SC1
20:28:42 [ben_]: yh: general technique to show time remaining04
20:29:07 [ben_]: yh: server-side tech to remember settings related to timeouts
20:29:29 [ben_]: bg: creating a time out with a way to turn it off
20:29:52 [ben_]: bg: creating a way to extend or modify time w/ script
20:30:44 [joeclark]: joeclark has left #wai-wcag
20:30:55 [ben_]: topic: 2.2 L2 SC1
20:31:21 [ben_]: dm: need to cover animated gifs
20:31:57 [ben_]: bg: scripting technique to implement blinking via script w/ a way to turn it off
20:32:22 [ben_]: yh: css technique that lets you switch between using animated vs. static images
20:33:07 [ben_]: topic: 2.2 L2 SC2
20:33:34 [ben_]: bg: script tech for first SC also applies
20:33:39 [ben_]: mc: animated gif as well
20:33:55 [LucaMascaro]: zakim, unmute me
20:33:55 [Zakim]: LucaMascaro should no longer be muted
20:34:02 [LucaMascaro]: q+
20:34:07 [ben_]: yh: pausing multimedia (author issue or user agent issue?)
20:34:15 [rscano]: depends
20:34:31 [ben_]: dm: use of script to make text shake, there should be a script technique to make it stop shaking.
20:34:49 [rscano]: depends from the object proprieties and how the browser embed it
20:35:20 [Michael]: ack chris
20:35:25 [ben_]: ack Luca
20:35:44 [rscano]: Luca?
20:35:50 [ben_]: al: techniques around ticker-tape scrolling?
20:36:12 [LucaMascaro]: zakim, mute me
20:36:12 [Zakim]: LucaMascaro should now be muted
20:36:40 [LucaMascaro]: I suggest to use a SMIL file to general technique
20:37:28 [rscano]: other object that can move are: java ticker, object (flash animations, multimedia objects), markup (SVG, ...), CSS...
20:37:39 [David]: zakim, mute me
20:37:39 [Zakim]: David_MacDonald should now be muted
20:37:41 [LucaMascaro]: I am a problem with microphone
20:38:10 [rscano]: blink attribute
20:38:42 [ben_]: topic: 2.2 L3 SC1
20:39:11 [ben_]: yh: general technique on how to design content without requiring timing
20:39:28 [rscano]: online test can be an example
20:39:33 [ben_]: mc: address online testing
20:40:36 [ben_]: topic: 2.2 L3 SC2
20:40:54 [ben_]: yh: meta-refresh technique
20:41:06 [ben_]: bg: general scripting technique for turning things off
20:41:23 [ben_]: mc: javascript alerts?
20:42:04 [ben_]: bg: issues around allowing users to turn off alerts
20:42:50 [ben_]: bg: might be a technique to allow people to prevent alerts
20:44:26 [ben_]: topic: 2.2 L3 SC3
20:44:59 [ben_]: yh: server-side techniques around keeping data while awaiting re-authentication
20:45:00 [rscano]: this is a server-side issue that we cannot charge on the web content developer
20:45:16 [ben_]: yh: store intermediate results on multi-part surveys
20:45:48 [ben_]: (stored on the server)
20:46:34 [ben_]: bg: checking to find out if timeout is about to occur and allowing users to submit before timeout occurs
20:47:39 [ben_]: topic: 2.3 L1 SC1
20:48:12 [ben_]: yh: use robots.txt to exclude violating content from search engines
20:48:50 [ben_]: yh: general techniques for how to provide a good warning and using entry pages
20:48:55 [rscano]: ora a door-page
20:49:04 [ben_]: mc: issues around controlling path users use to get to a page
20:49:29 [rscano]: there are no PICS Label that can do this?
20:50:15 [ben_]: mc: scripting technique that can check preferences before serving problem content
20:50:26 [ben_]: mb: splash page that warns of issue before playing
20:51:23 [ben_]: yh: use a checkbox on a page that presents a warning before presenting content
20:51:43 [ben_]: al: just don't do it
20:51:57 [David]: That's should be a general techniue
20:52:37 [ben_]: bc: general technique for how to evaluate for problematic content
20:52:44 [ben_]: topic: 2.3 L3 SC1
20:55:00 [ben_]: mc: foreground/background issues w/ HTML/CSS on this?
20:55:30 [ben_]: mb: general technique - some way to determine whether or not they are violating this
20:57:18 [ben_]: guide doc/general techniques need to address what the problem space around these criterion are
20:57:26 [ben_]: topic: 2.4 L1 SC1
20:57:54 [ChrisR]: ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
20:58:00 [Zakim]: -Chris
20:58:01 [ben_]: yh: <link> and <a> in HTML
20:58:27 [ben_]: yh: also header elements
20:59:07 [ben_]: yh: lists and groups of links
20:59:16 [ben_]: bg: can reference DHTML Roadmap work here
21:00:15 [ben_]: mc: HTML/Script technqiue for javascript URL (sometimes navigational feature, sometimes not) -- if you're using this as a navigational feature, don't.
21:00:38 [ben_]: yh: onclick event handlers that take you to another page
21:01:08 [ben_]: mc: autosubmit combo boxes
21:01:39 [ben_]: topic: 2.4 L2 SC1
21:02:16 [ben_]: yh: should also be one on table of contents
21:02:26 [ben_]: yh: server-side tech about using search engines
21:02:38 [ben_]: yh: general techniques about linking to related content
21:02:57 [ben_]: yh: how to assign effective metadata
21:03:13 [ben_]: yh: allowing users to search as well as browse
21:04:05 [ben_]: bg: script tech from a list apart - use link element to create drop-down menus
21:04:25 [ben_]: yh: providing links to most popular content
21:04:45 [David]: zakim, unmute me
21:04:45 [Zakim]: David_MacDonald should no longer be muted
21:04:52 [ben_]: topic: 2.4 L2 SC2
21:05:06 [ben_]: bg: CSS to allow keyboard users to view skip links
21:06:28 [ben_]: yh: perhaps revise HTML 9.7 to be more general? (currently applies only to link groups)
21:06:56 [ben_]: mc: ideally, using <div> would help
21:07:03 [ben_]: yh: using headers helps
21:07:12 [ben_]: mc: using tables can also be helpful
21:08:06 [ben_]: yh: technique to hide repeated content?
21:08:26 [ben_]: topic: 2.4 L2 SC3
21:08:51 [ben_]: yh: general technique for writing a good title
21:09:15 [ben_]: yh: general technique about titles being unique?
21:09:26 [ben_]: topic 2.4 L2 SC4
21:10:30 [ben_]: yh: use spacer gif in link text so that it is not visible
21:11:01 [Yvette]: yh: where alt for spacer gif gives additional clarification
21:11:07 [ben_]: topic: 2.4 L3 SC1
21:11:56 [ben_]: yh: negative technique around illogical HTML source order corrected by CSS
21:12:10 [ben_]: mc: for imagemaps, area element should exist in source code in reasonable order
21:12:47 [ben_]: dm: focus order for javascript menus
21:13:41 [ben_]: yh: HTML forms, if multiple submit buttons, be sure the first one is the one you want to be default (may fit better under 2.1)
21:13:59 [ben_]: topic: 2.4 L3 SC2
21:14:09 [ben_]: dm: breadcrumb navigation (server-side)
21:15:02 [ben_]: could also be HTML
21:15:24 [ben_]: yh: using icons and color to differentiate sections of a site
21:17:28 [ben_]: breadcrumb technique above may fit better under general
21:18:04 [ben_]: mc: techniques around use of <link> element
21:18:24 [ben_]: yh: negative technique around breaking the back button?
21:18:49 [ben_]: yh: using different colors on visited vs. unvisited links
21:19:30 [David]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/30-sc-techniques-mapping.html
21:19:31 [rscano]: and different styles, not only colour ;-)
21:20:02 [David]: http://www.eramp.com/david/general/
21:20:27 [Becky]: scribe: becky
21:21:26 [Becky]: topic: 2.5 L1 SC1
21:22:07 [Becky]: dm: see #1 in url posted above
21:22:37 [Becky]: mc: client side validation and scripting alert
21:23:00 [Becky]: mc: client side validation and add error text via the DOM
21:24:03 [Becky]: dm: validation of credit card formats
21:24:22 [Becky]: yh: gen. tech for writing understandable 401 or 404 pages
21:25:01 [Becky]: mb: provide tech. to provide a guess when desired page is not found "smart 404"
21:25:02 [David]: http://www.realisis.ca/darcy
21:25:09 [David]: here is myfavorite 404
21:25:10 [rscano]: note that not all the server admin let to customize these pages
21:25:44 [Becky]: bc: techs for when move a url to redirect to correct page
21:26:15 [Becky]: topic: 2.5 L2 SC2
21:26:37 [Becky]: mc: some of above listed techs might fall better under hear
21:26:44 [Becky]: yh: google "did you mean" example
21:27:12 [Becky]: yh: provide a list of words that are similar; type 3 letters and provide a list of choices that begin with those letters
21:28:16 [Becky]: yh: use soundex codes
21:28:34 [LucaMascaro]: Google suggest? http://www.google.com/webhp?complete=1&hl=en
21:29:13 [Becky]: yh: show similar search results/matches
21:29:41 [Yvette]: yh: especially if exact matches are not found
21:29:57 [Becky]: dm: in page link from error message to field with the error
21:30:02 [LucaMascaro]: a featured link in amazon?
21:30:12 [Becky]: cs: query enhancements
21:30:41 [Becky]: topic: GL 2.5 L2 SC3
21:31:11 [rscano]: bye
21:31:18 [rscano]: rscano has left #wai-wcag
21:31:23 [Becky]: yh: gen tech. about dividing processes into steps and allowing forward and backward nav.
21:31:25 [Zakim]: -Roberto_Scano
21:31:58 [Becky]: dm: return a new form with only the incorrect fields available
21:32:41 [Becky]: bg: alert/pup-up with "Are you sure?" and ok, cancel
21:33:09 [Becky]: dm: programmatically provide supplemental information - tooltips with addn. info or help
21:33:18 [Becky]: bc: is a bugzilla feature
21:33:49 [Becky]: yh: server side tech that allows users to log back in, see past transactions and cancel
21:34:14 [Becky]: topic: GL 2.5 L3 SC1
21:34:36 [Becky]: dm: confirmation window opens to show user action has completed
21:35:09 [Becky]: yh: provide spell checking
21:35:27 [Becky]: mc: help bubbles
21:35:31 [Becky]: yh: tooltips using title
21:35:45 [Becky]: dm: do not use same words or letter combinations to begin each item of the list
21:36:26 [Becky]: yh: providing help link on every page
21:36:50 [Becky]: yh: (annoying) assistant in the corner of the page
21:37:41 [Becky]: topic: GL 3.1 L1 SC1
21:38:35 [Becky]: cs: html text directionality
21:38:58 [Becky]: mc: use of meta tag with content-language
21:39:06 [Becky]: mc: not sure that is supported/valid
21:39:23 [Becky]: cs: text dirction: http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-lang.html#ri20040728.121940236
21:39:23 [Becky]: <Becky> mc: not sure that is supported/valid
21:40:27 [Becky]: mc: not sure that meta tag with content-language is supported
21:41:29 [Becky]: yh: tech about how to use templates - put language in just once in the template. this could also be used in many other areas
21:41:40 [Becky]: topic: GL 3.1 L2 SC1
21:41:57 [Becky]: cs: text directionality also applies here
21:42:31 [David]: gotta go...cheers...
21:42:40 [Zakim]: -David_MacDonald
21:43:22 [Becky]: yh: what to do if specify more than one language in header?
21:43:28 [Becky]: mc: needs more discussion
21:43:45 [Becky]: topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC1
21:44:25 [Becky]: (note) we are working from mapping doc url at beginning of discussion - it may not map exactly with current draft)
21:44:42 [Becky]: mc: link rel="glossary"
21:45:53 [Becky]: bg: provide definitions via bubble help
21:46:17 [Becky]: yh: gen tech to provide hyperlinks to relavent online dictionarys
21:46:39 [Becky]: topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC2
21:47:38 [Becky]: bg: provide a way to highlight important words in the content via button press and scripting/css
21:47:48 [Becky]: yh: definition lists
21:48:14 [Becky]: mc: via internal linking
21:48:46 [Becky]: topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC3
21:49:01 [Becky]: yh: same techns that we already have for finding definitions
21:49:54 [Becky]: mc: expanded form presented first time it is used and acronym is presented in parends after - then use acronym in subsequent references
21:50:21 [Becky]: yh: provide search engine to look up - can be used for several of these SC
21:50:38 [Becky]: topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC4
21:51:14 [Becky]: yh: tech how to mark up section titles
21:51:25 [Becky]: bg: gen tech of how to write descriptive titles
21:52:01 [Becky]: topic: GL 3.1 L3 SC 5
21:52:29 [ben_]: lots of general techniques for this one - http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-GENERAL-20050630/meaning-supplements.html
21:52:33 [Zakim]: -rellero
21:52:45 [Becky]: mb: provide recommendations on how to provide the alternatives
21:53:31 [Becky]: yh: font load the document - make first paragraph the summary
21:53:49 [Becky]: yh: css tech about how to make sure people notice the text summary by using diff. presentation style
21:54:18 [Becky]: yh: style sheet switcher or script tech. to switch between diff. version of a doc.
21:54:42 [sebastiano]: I've to go, cheers
21:55:17 [Becky]: yh: make sure spoken version of text content is not started automatically in the background or only at the user's request
21:55:51 [Zakim]: -Sebastiano
21:56:11 [Becky]: got thru harvesting techniques through GL 3.1
21:58:16 [Becky]: rsagent, generate minutes
21:58:21 [Zakim]: -Alex_Li
21:58:22 [Zakim]: -Bengt_Farre?
21:58:23 [Zakim]: -Andi
21:58:24 [LucaMascaro]: bye
21:58:25 [Zakim]: -Mike
21:58:25 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
21:58:26 [Zakim]: -Yvette_Hoitink
21:58:26 [Zakim]: -Christophe_Strobbe
21:58:28 [Zakim]: -Ben
21:58:31 [Zakim]: -LucaMascaro
21:58:32 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:58:33 [Zakim]: Attendees were Alex_Li, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Becky_Gibson, Gregg, Roberto_Scano, Chris, Christophe_Strobbe, Bengt_Farre?, Ben?, Ben, Mike, LucaMascaro, David_MacDonald,
21:58:35 [Zakim]: ... rellero, Andi, Sebastiano
21:59:04 [bengt]: bengt has left #wai-wcag
21:59:28 [Becky]: rrsagent, generate minutes
21:59:28 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html Becky
21:59:44 [ben_]: Regrets: Gregg_Vanderheiden, Matt_May, Tim_Boland, Roberto_Castaldo, Takayuki_Watanabe
21:59:52 [ben_]: Zakim, bye
21:59:52 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:00:00 [ben_]: RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:00:00 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben_
22:00:58 [Christophe]: Christophe has left #wai-wcag
22:01:13 [ben_]: Meeting: WCAG Weekly Telecon
22:01:20 [ben_]: RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:01:20 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben_
22:02:19 [ben_]: RRSAgent, bye
22:02:19 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items