IRC log of tagmem on 2005-07-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:57:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
16:57:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:57:19 [ht]
Chair: Vincent
16:57:26 [ht]
Scribe: ht
16:59:36 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started
16:59:44 [ht]
Meeting: TAG
16:59:44 [Zakim]
16:59:54 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
16:59:54 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
16:59:55 [Zakim]
17:00:16 [Vincent]
zakim, INRIA is Vincent
17:00:16 [Zakim]
+Vincent; got it
17:00:18 [ht]
Topic: Administrative
17:00:50 [Zakim]
17:00:55 [ht]
Regrets: Roy, Noah, Norm, Dave (partial)
17:02:41 [dino]
should I wait for the topic?
17:03:07 [DanC]
I guess so. we seem to be booting up slowly
17:03:12 [Vincent]
Dean, I guess we wil start with WebApps in 5 minutes
17:03:20 [dino]
17:04:20 [DanC]
expecting Ed and Timbl
17:07:03 [Zakim]
17:07:11 [Zakim]
17:07:20 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
17:07:45 [ht]
Zakim, who is here?
17:07:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Vincent, Ht, DanC, TimBL, Dave_Orchard
17:07:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see timbl, RRSAgent, Vincent, Zakim, dino, ht, DanC
17:08:11 [ht]
DO to scribe next week
17:08:35 [DanC]
regrets NM for 12 July
17:10:24 [timbl]
17:10:50 [timbl]
17:10:52 [DanC]
and withdrawn by the tag
17:11:06 [ht]
Topic: XMLProfiles-29
17:11:16 [ht]
ACTION: Chair to note that XMLProfiles-29 has been withdrawn in the issues list
17:12:11 [ht]
Agenda+ Web Applications
17:12:17 [ht]
Agenda+ Authentication
17:12:32 [DanC]
dino, now's a good time to join
17:12:36 [dino]
zakim, call dean-617
17:12:36 [Zakim]
ok, dino; the call is being made
17:12:37 [ht]
Dean, we're ready for you -- Vincent is calling
17:12:38 [Zakim]
17:13:10 [ht]
VQ: Thanks to Dean for joining us so late
17:14:02 [ht]
... [background to TAG interest in Web Applications]
17:14:06 [ht]
Topic: Web Applications
17:15:09 [ht]
TimBL: Existing issue XMLProfiles-29. . .
17:15:31 [timbl]
17:15:32 [ht]
... we withdrew our request to XML Core to do something
17:15:50 [ht]
... but not clear that the issue is really dead
17:16:08 [DanC]
(the norm is that the TAG announces a decision to close an issue, saying to the originator, "ok with you?")
17:16:13 [ht]
... need to check with Paul Grosso and Norm Walsh
17:16:13 [timbl]
There should bee a message to say what the tag resolved.
17:16:21 [timbl]
Ort that it was withdrawn by Paulk G
17:16:32 [dino]
17:16:37 [ht]
ACTION: Chair to check status of XMLProfiles-29 with Paul Grosso
17:17:10 [ht]
DJ: Draft charter is in W3M review
17:17:46 [ht]
... WebApps have become cool again in the last 12--6 months, particularly AJAX, based on XMLHttpRequest
17:17:54 [timbl]
HTML, DOm, Javascript, XMLHTTRequest
17:18:05 [ht]
... Technology has been around, but only crystalised recently
17:18:27 [ht]
... Gmail is a good example of HTML+DOM+Javascript
17:19:01 [ht]
... Whole mailbox is one page, mail comes in/out via Javascript plus HTTP requests behind the scenes
17:19:15 [ht]
... Same URL throughout the whole session
17:19:32 [ht]
... Another example is Google Maps
17:19:45 [ht]
... Dashboard widgets. . .
17:20:14 [ht]
... Devs complaining about limitations, requests coming in to W3C for support/features
17:20:29 [ht]
... Some of this has filtered in to our specs, e.g. SVG
17:21:14 [DanC]
hmm... yes... what deliverables/scope?
17:21:17 [ht]
... But SVG is not really the right place for a Network API -- we maybe need a REC which addresses these issues across all the relevant domain
17:21:24 [ht]
17:21:25 [timbl]
17:21:29 [ht]
ack timbl
17:21:50 [ht]
TBL: Is this an ECMAScript-based story or note
17:22:14 [ht]
... Scope says just "client-side applications for the web" -- that covers Perl, Haystack etc.
17:22:39 [ht]
... But I thought this was about refining/standardising existing hacks, i.e. standardising Javascript usage of today
17:23:20 [timbl]
Dean: The DOM is used in javascript, but in Python one could do a much better specific language binding.
17:23:32 [ht]
DJ: Yes. C.f. the reaction of the dev community to the DOM -- we're only going to use it through Javascript, so the cross-language stuff is a pain
17:23:45 [timbl]
... It should be extedning and refining existing practcie ... but Java is often used when JScript is not on ophones.
17:24:13 [ht]
... So mostly yes, Javascript, but phones are a worry, because Java, not Javascript, is the tool of choice there
17:24:38 [ht]
... Also, consider XMLHttpRequest - not needed in Java, it's already there
17:25:23 [ht]
... Cookie-support OTOH is something which makes sense in the browser context, not in the general web/pgming language interface
17:26:40 [ht]
DJ: The focus is on standardising across the current diversity of Javascript usage into specific W3C-blessed APIs
17:26:58 [DanC]
(hmm... in fact, skip the specs and go straight to the test suite. just give this WG the mandate to decide the outcome of test cases presented by the community. 1/2 ;-)
17:27:16 [ht]
TBL: The charter should say this -- no sense beating around the bush, stop people from joining to design a new language in their tracks
17:27:33 [ht]
DJ: Take that on board
17:27:45 [ht]
TBL: First deliverable is a list of deliverables?
17:27:54 [ht]
DJ: That came from W3M input
17:28:09 [ht]
HST notes that writing a Requirements doc't is often the way a new WG starts. . .
17:28:35 [ht]
TBL: I'd worry that that opens the door to new languages
17:29:11 [ht]
... Compare what's happened to CDF -- embedding is the interesting and important bit, but they're focussing on 'by reference', because it's the easy part
17:29:45 [ht]
DJ: Well, we hope the problems we're solving will make the embedding part easier
17:29:56 [ht]
TBL: Scoping is really important. . .
17:30:26 [ht]
DJ: Can easily make it less JScript specific
17:31:01 [ht]
TBL: But is that really the right direction to go -- don't you lose fluidity if you move away from JScript-specific -- consider E4X
17:31:28 [DanC]
-> Mobile Code Workshop: 05 July 1995
17:31:34 [ht]
DJ: Compare Java, strong-typing, vs. JScript and Python, can change type at runtime
17:31:51 [ht]
... Main usecase is JScript, I'm happy to put that in the charter
17:32:13 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:32:15 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask about how many programming languages in the web...
17:32:19 [ht]
TBL: People have said the the DOM is clumsy -- OK for all languages, but good for none.
17:33:24 [ht]
DC: E4X looks good, cool if runtime understands it, but it's my understanding that the huge bulk of Javascript art is figuring out what support you've got for what features and how you can do business
17:34:55 [Zakim]
17:35:12 [ht]
... Architectural question: How many programming languages for the web -- Ref. Programming Languages workshop in 1995 (ref?), concluded in favour of 'many'. But by 1997, with COM, CORBA and Java in play, with MSoft opposed to anything beginning J*, we then went on to do our first, namely XSLT
17:35:28 [ht]
... So 'how many' is still an interesting question
17:35:50 [ht]
DJ: Answer: 1 -- even phone platforms are moving towards Javascript
17:35:56 [Zakim]
17:36:12 [ht]
... [something] from Microsoft coming along for phones, embed any .NET language
17:36:25 [ht]
DC: Languages I run in to Flash/Lingo
17:36:49 [ht]
DJ: Lingo is changing to be more like Javascript
17:37:20 [ht]
... Nice pgrming environment, simpler object setup than HTML
17:37:23 [DanC]
ActionScript is more like...
17:38:23 [ht]
DC: ActionScript is compiled out, there's XSLT, Java . . . not growing all that fast in my experience
17:39:01 [ht]
... Biggest difference between Javascript and Python is that Javascript shares code by copy and paste, because of security restrictions
17:39:24 [ht]
DJ: But the <script> tag can reference anything and it will get downloaded
17:39:47 [ht]
... But once you're running, the _code_ can only retrieve from the place the matrix page came from
17:40:14 [ht]
... Reason is to stop people snarfing stuff from inside the firewall once they get there
17:40:30 [ht]
DC: Is Javascript's namespace flat?
17:40:46 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:40:46 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask about javascript importing: namespaces and security
17:41:07 [ht]
DJ: Yes -- the charter talks about Window object, which is not standardised anywhere but implemented in all browsers
17:41:30 [ht]
... If you expect to share code, use xx_ in front of all your names
17:41:43 [ht]
TBL: Is the Window thing in the charter?
17:41:58 [ht]
DJ: Yes, called 'Global Browser Object'
17:42:13 [ht]
TBL: Any pointer to anyone's documentation of this would be good. . .
17:43:03 [ht]
DJ: Yes, 2nd deliverable is a "State of the WebApp World" -- that could include e.g. a Wiki collected by Team cataloguing everything we can find . . .
17:43:22 [DanC]
hmm... TAG finding/
17:43:24 [DanC]
17:43:27 [ht]
... It would be good IMO to move this off the WG and onto the Team
17:44:21 [ht]
DJ: Question: Google Accelerator pre-fetched links from search result, but this caused trouble by stimulating lots of server-side code
17:44:57 [ht]
... Non-bookmarkable stuff that just blew up
17:45:09 [DanC]
(er... GET vs POST is one issue (#7) and bookmarkable-cookie-state is another (not on our list yet?))
17:45:20 [ht]
TBL: The principle of GA is OK
17:45:40 [ht]
[HST doesn't understand why POST would be better]
17:45:51 [ht]
DJ: Lazy use of GET to save 2 lines of code
17:45:58 [ht]
q+ to ask about POST
17:46:00 [DanC]
(using POST in the right places isn't helped by some aspects of HTML)
17:47:01 [ht]
VQ: When we discussed this last week, NM asked about open architectures wrt WebApps -- comment?
17:47:09 [ht]
DJ: Not sure what he meant by that
17:47:21 [ht]
DC: Worried about monoply control of the design space
17:47:49 [ht]
DJ: Everyone shares that concern: An open std doc fmt that can do text animation graphics etc.
17:48:00 [ht]
... And an open std pgming environment
17:48:36 [ht]
... Javascript is good enough, maybe XUL is good enough, but nothing comes close in terms of current usage to HTML+Javascript
17:49:11 [ht]
VQ: NM also concerned about client-side memory requirements
17:49:41 [DanC]
(dean, if it's been in IE for 7 years, surely there's some docs somewhere)
17:49:47 [ht]
DJ: Think that's a misunderstanding, hope current charter clarifies, persistent storage is not a requirement
17:49:54 [dino]
there are. somewhere on
17:50:00 [dino]
I'll look
17:50:39 [ht]
TBL: Make sure there is more than one line in the charter in terms of answering this sort of question, so that scope is clear
17:51:06 [ht]
DJ: RF mentioned security, something will go in charter
17:51:12 [timbl]
17:51:16 [ht]
ack ht
17:51:16 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to ask about POST
17:51:41 [DanC]
(using GET for "buy this album" is lazy)
17:51:57 [ht]
HST: Why is GET the worong thing?
17:52:27 [ht]
DJ: Use <a> in a ToDo list as a way to build a 'done' button
17:52:41 [timbl]
q+ to ask about Dean's personal prioritization of these issues, and
17:52:49 [ht]
... So prefetching from the todo list dropped all the items
17:52:53 [Vincent]
ack timbl
17:52:53 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to ask about Dean's personal prioritization of these issues, and
17:52:53 [timbl]
17:52:53 [ht]
ack timbl
17:53:25 [ht]
TBL: Suppose you were chair, how do you proceed? Fork multiple taskforces, because things are independent?
17:54:22 [ht]
DJ: Yes, multiple task forces would be the plan, group as a whole would not have much to do
17:55:00 [ht]
... Moust important bit is XMLHttpRequest -- WHATWG is also doing this, as part of HTML5, we could/should do it just on its own
17:55:21 [ht]
... Another important bit is DOM level 3 Events, it's in Process limbo, needed in lots of places
17:55:54 [ht]
... Lots of interest in XML UI, I'm not really up on that, lots of folk are concerned to get a standard before we get a lot of non-standard ones
17:56:01 [ht]
TBL: Start from XUL?
17:56:08 [ht]
DJ: Maybe, I don't really know enough
17:56:16 [ht]
TBL: Separate WG?
17:56:39 [ht]
DJ: Maybe -- there is a risk this WG gets all the bits that have no home
17:56:59 [ht]
... I'd rather make this small group with small target and get it done
17:57:05 [ht]
... So keep XML UI out of it
17:57:19 [ht]
TBL: [missed this]
17:57:29 [ht]
DJ: Let's see what the AC review says
17:57:44 [ht]
DC: There's a risk, at formal review stage, that they just say 'yes' and you're stuck with it all
17:58:06 [DanC]
TBL: to give the same group both (1) a list of small manageable tasks and (2) a big open-ended thing is to put both at risk
17:58:35 [ht]
TBL: This all sounds right, you've got the energy pointing in the right direction, XUL is the outsider, best to leave it out
17:59:09 [ht]
DJ: Right, don't want to get bogged down -- focus on refine and standardise existing practice in the API area/runtime library
17:59:28 [ht]
TBL: But not a new declarative language for UI, i.e. XUL
17:59:53 [ht]
DJ: Another relevant point is X?L, could connect up with taskforce in WebApp WG
18:00:04 [ht]
18:00:16 [DanC]
18:00:17 [timbl]
18:00:24 [timbl]
18:00:25 [ht]
... Implemented in Mozilla
18:00:48 [DanC]
-> XBL (Extensible Binding Language) 1.0
18:01:23 [ht]
DJ: So I hear [TBL] with his Director hat on suggesting moving the XML UI stuff out of this charter
18:01:35 [DanC]
note also...
18:01:39 [ht]
TBL: Yes, needs more investigation and isn't as ready yet
18:01:41 [DanC]
-> SVG's XML Binding Language (sXBL)
18:01:55 [timbl]
No, ht, no one said anything about a director hat!!!
18:02:12 [ht]
timbl, I thought Dean did -- Dean?
18:02:25 [timbl]
he sai,d ... your review of this charter
18:02:34 [dino]
no. I meant as part of his review. Not as Director
18:02:40 [dino]
as Tim, W3M dude
18:02:49 [ht]
HST will correct the minutes
18:03:39 [ht]
DO: Is managing the growth and manipulation of complex state in Javascript to protect against the loss of URIs for the results on the table?
18:03:51 [ht]
DJ: No, that's not on anyone's radar
18:04:08 [ht]
DO: So the long-term effect of these problems is not an issue
18:04:38 [ht]
DJ: Similar to Google Accelerator problem, they did a simple obvious thing but it had unexpected negative consequences
18:05:16 [ht]
DO: Is there a way the TAG can do about it? How can we help make there be more URIs/make the Back button work
18:05:58 [ht]
DJ: People are using Ajax because they believe the user experience is enhanced because it makes things so much faster than reloading the whole page
18:06:11 [ht]
... That view is in direct tension with making the Back button work
18:07:08 [ht]
DC: These guys are savvy wrt what they're doing, but consider when that approach/toolkit is used for a bank website and we move from my statement to a deposit etc. w/o a change in URL
18:08:18 [ht]
DJ: Well, guidelines on what you _shouldn't_ do would be a good idea -- for example "Don't use GET for things that change the world"
18:08:21 [DanC]
(for webaps... forget specs... build a cool "planet webapps", with a validator, complete with a button "I'm surprised by the validator results, and I hereby donate this to w3c as a test case")
18:09:20 [ht]
TBL: Question for the TAG: Are we happy with the Web losing its declarative style, more and more going in to Javascript?
18:09:34 [ht]
DC: No not happy, see action wrt Principle of Least Power
18:10:24 [ht]
DJ: There are some really bright Javascript hackers who, e.g. to populate a page, will use microparsing and templates to do the job
18:10:44 [ht]
... So even w/o scripting you can get some sense of what the page is
18:10:55 [ht]
... WHATWG is making very good progress on that front
18:11:40 [ht]
... TV Raman said, W3C's job is to watch what's happening on the Web, take non-declarative usages and move them into a declarative form -- XForms is his positive example here
18:12:01 [ht]
VQ: So will WebApp WG feed back to XForms?
18:12:13 [Zakim]
18:12:26 [ht]
DJ: Not as such, but I do want to know what the XForms people think about WebApps
18:12:38 [ht]
TBL: Could you write XForms using WebApps?
18:12:40 [DanC]
(there's some company that has done an XForms implementation in javascript... what's it called?)
18:12:48 [ht]
DJ: Sure, mostly if not all -- Schema?
18:13:01 [ht]
TBL: So is that a kind of transition strategy?
18:13:27 [ht]
DJ: Yes, try to put as much declarative stuff into the doc't as possible, a bit of script to do the clever stuff
18:13:44 [ht]
HST thinks Dave Ragett's SLIDY is a similar story
18:13:54 [dino]
18:14:51 [ht]
HST: If WHATWG are targetting the 80/20 point and doing it declaratively, why aren't we?
18:15:15 [ht]
DJ: They're not doing things completely declaratively
18:15:38 [ht]
... E.g. a slider which looks like a text box today, a slider if you have an 'HTML5' browser
18:16:05 [ht]
... Maybe they could add some javascript to get an intermediate behaviour
18:16:40 [ht]
... I certainly think the XHTML WG think moving stuff into declarative form part of what they're doing in XHTML2
18:17:00 [ht]
DC: Not sure what we do next
18:17:30 [ht]
DJ: Nokia did ask for TAG review
18:17:45 [ht]
DC: Yes, TAG should do that
18:17:49 [ht]
VQ: Agreed
18:17:50 [DanC]
(I think Nokia asked for the doc to be produced, not TAG review)
18:17:53 [dino]
s/TAG review/state of the art document/
18:18:22 [Zakim]
18:18:28 [ht]
VQ: Thanks to Dino for his coming to talk to us
18:18:34 [ht]
18:18:42 [ht]
zakim, next agendum
18:18:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Web Applications" taken up [from ht]
18:18:45 [ht]
zakim, next agendum
18:18:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, ht
18:19:03 [ht]
VQ: Minutes of last meeting?
18:19:06 [DanC]
-> 28 Jun minutes
18:19:11 [ht]
18:19:30 [ht]
DC: says "Draft" all over it
18:19:36 [ht]
VQ: Title is wrong
18:19:37 [DanC]
"Scribe.perl diagnostic output"
18:19:54 [ht]
Action: HST to fix all that
18:20:22 [ht]
RESOLVED: Approved after fixes
18:20:42 [ht]
Topic: Authentication
18:20:57 [ht]
DC: Took an action to write a report on sorry state of things
18:20:59 [DanC]
-> OpenID: an actually distributed identity system
18:21:05 [ht]
... Turns out things aren't so bad
18:21:21 [ht]
... Looks promising, not yet sure it's a complete solution
18:21:49 [ht]
... Pain point is blog spam, anyone can add irrelevant or unpleasant 'comments' on a blog
18:22:29 [ht]
... Idea is you add a pointer to e.g. your home page which in turn provides a secure guarantee that you do in fact control that page
18:23:16 [ht]
HST: Doesn't stop people doing blog spam, just makes them reveal who they really are when they do
18:23:27 [ht]
DC: Yes, increases the cost of bad behaviour
18:23:37 [ht]
VQ: What's plan wrt the action you took
18:24:08 [ht]
DC: I hope to write a report saying "OpenID saves the day", but not before end of summer, I expect
18:24:57 [ht]
VQ: End of agenda, AOB?
18:25:21 [Zakim]
18:25:23 [Zakim]
18:25:25 [Zakim]
18:25:26 [ht]
VQ: Meeting over, next meeting next week same time and place
18:25:32 [Zakim]
18:25:33 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
18:25:34 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ht, Vincent, DanC, TimBL, Dave_Orchard, Dean
18:25:44 [ht]
zakim, leave us.
18:25:44 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'leave us', ht
18:25:47 [DanC]
let's see... we have regrets from timbl (among others) next week, right?
18:26:10 [ht]
Don't think so -- afraid TimBL arrived after we did regrets. . .
18:26:18 [ht]
not sure
18:26:19 [timbl]
Regrest from timbl for next 3 weeks
18:26:29 [ht]
That's clear!
18:26:39 [timbl]
I gave my regrets at the face-face on the board and in email to Vincent
18:26:57 [ht]
zakim, bye.
18:26:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
18:27:06 [ht]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes.
18:27:06 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft minutes.', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:27:25 [ht]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:27:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ht
18:27:48 [ht]
RRSAgent, make minutes world-visible
18:27:48 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-visible', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:27:59 [ht]
RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
18:28:26 [ht]
RRSAgent, bye
18:28:26 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
18:28:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chair to note that XMLProfiles-29 has been withdrawn in the issues list [1]
18:28:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:28:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chair to check status of XMLProfiles-29 with Paul Grosso [2]
18:28:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:28:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: HST to fix all that [3]
18:28:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in