IRC log of dawg on 2005-07-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:22 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:28:31 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:28:32 [Zakim]
14:29:13 [Zakim]
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14:29:33 [stoni]
stoni has joined #dawg
14:29:48 [Zakim]
14:29:51 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P4 is AndyS
14:29:51 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:30:10 [Zakim]
14:30:11 [Zakim]
14:30:21 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:30:21 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:30:28 [Zakim]
14:30:56 [DanC]
Zakim, [IBMCambridge] is temporarily LeeF
14:30:56 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:31:22 [Zakim]
14:31:28 [SteveH]
Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH
14:31:28 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:31:35 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:31:35 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:31:46 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:31:46 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:33:34 [ericP]
warning about identical-looking IRIs -->
14:33:42 [DanC]
regrets: Jeen Broekstra, Dave Beckett
14:33:46 [Zakim]
14:33:51 [Zakim]
14:34:10 [DanC]
regrets+ Yoshio FUKUSHIGE
14:35:02 [DanC]
Zakim, list attendees
14:35:02 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been DanC, HowardK, AndyS, EricP, Kendall_Clark, LeeF, SteveH, [IBMCambridge]
14:35:28 [DanC]
-> 26 Jun minutes
14:35:30 [AndyS]
Eric your 2 resume examples render differently in FF :-)
14:36:23 [DanC]
RESOLVED to accepts 26 Jun minutes
14:36:28 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:36:28 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
14:36:32 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:36:32 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH
14:36:38 [ericP]
PROPOSED accept as a true record
14:36:41 [ericP]
14:36:43 [ericP]
14:37:06 [ericP]
Next meeting: 12-July
14:37:09 [ericP]
Scribe: SteveH
14:37:53 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:37:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "SPARQL QL publication" taken up [from DanC]
14:38:24 [EliasT]
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14:39:47 [DanC]
. ACTION EricP: defns extraction
14:39:54 [AndyS]
"resume" example works in IE :-)
14:40:07 [DanC]
ACTION EricP: defns extraction
14:40:15 [DanC]
ACTION: EricP clarify which regex lang, new section ericp; have AndyS check it.
14:40:23 [DanC]
ACTION: PatH to review new optionals defintions, if any
14:40:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.323.444.aaaa
14:40:46 [DanC]
Zakim, aaaa is JosD
14:40:46 [Zakim]
+JosD; got it
14:40:56 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: write SOTD; work with EricP to publish
14:41:25 [Zakim]
14:41:26 [ericP]
zakim, who is here?
14:41:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DanC, HowardK, AndyS, EricP, Kendall_Clark, LeeF, SteveH, [IBMCambridge], ??P24, JosD, PatH
14:41:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see EliasT, stoni, RRSAgent, kendall, howardk, Zakim, AndyS, LeeF, SteveH, afs, ericP, DanC
14:41:37 [ericP]
zakim, ??P24 is Souri
14:41:37 [Zakim]
+Souri; got it
14:41:57 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:42:29 [patH]
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14:42:33 [kendall]
pedantic web, yes! :>
14:43:46 [kendall]
(hmm, I have to send real regrets for next week -- dr's appointment during our call)
14:45:08 [ericP]
Andy believes he can produce OPTIONALs text this week in time for PatH to review it
14:45:43 [ericP]
KendallC: we care about bNodes issue, but don't care that it is before last call
14:47:11 [DanC]
-> example from DanC in bnodes
14:47:27 [ericP]
DanC: at first, I thought bNodes was an overspecification problem. Now see that a test case reveals that they want a different definition of matching.
14:48:46 [DanC]
(bnode rich stuff can be hard to deal with, yes. advises "don't do that". hmm.)
14:49:20 [ericP]
(multiple identities for everything causes FOAF database bloat)
14:50:00 [kendall]
yes, i agree about "don't do that", but FOAF is kinda a big deal!
14:50:18 [ericP]
[KendallC describes UM's interest in stable bNode identifiers]
14:52:56 [ericP]
KendallC: I don't want to make a decision here that will make FOAF and OWL/DL queries harder in the future
14:54:13 [AndyS]
Answer is
14:54:13 [ericP]
PatH: we might be able to allow bNodes to pin down a match without requiring it
14:54:57 [DanC]
ron's reply regarding the test case
14:55:00 [ericP]
KendallC: I believe that is what we want. This affects using SPARQL between portals
14:55:55 [DanC]
input data: _:l23c14 foaf:mbox <>.
14:57:05 [ericP]
PatH: in the past, we tried bNodes not treated as variabls
14:57:17 [ericP]
... requires that you put a variable there instead.
14:57:42 [ericP]
... removes bNodes from the QL entirely
14:58:07 [ericP]
... backing off, you can send a query with a bNode but it might not match
14:59:51 [ericP]
Proplems with removing BNodes from SPARQL:
15:00:07 [ericP]
1. SELECT * gives more bindings
15:00:09 [DanC]
in _:l55c33 , it's an ell, not a one. line 55 character 33.
15:00:37 [AndyS]
3 ways round it :
15:00:52 [ericP]
2. need to rename named bNodes and []s when translating turtle to SPARQL
15:02:05 [ericP]
PatH: how about some syntax for "marked" bNodes?
15:02:20 [SteveH]
15:03:09 [ericP]
DanC notes that this appears to match Andy's _!:xyz proposal in
15:04:32 [ericP]
AndyS: protocol solution is also interesting 'cause you're in a session context
15:05:20 [AndyS]
We also need to relax XML results format (and RDF/XML??)
15:05:32 [SteveH]
_:a -> _!:a to mark?
15:05:39 [SteveH]
thats my understanding
15:07:36 [DanC]
agenda + blank node handling... new requirements?
15:07:36 [kendall]
but that's *one* implementation strategy among others; I don't see any reason to privilege it.
15:07:38 [ericP]
Elias, if we already have the capability, with OPTIONALs, is inventing this stuff necessary?
15:07:41 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 8
15:07:41 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "blank node handling... new requirements?" taken up [from DanC]
15:08:01 [ericP]
Zakim, [IBMCambridge] is Elias
15:08:01 [Zakim]
+Elias; got it
15:08:36 [kendall]
what else is going on outside our group? Uh, FOAF, OWL DL. Little things like that! :>
15:09:07 [EliasT]
I meant: what else is going on outside our group that deals with bNodes across RDF documents...
15:09:22 [kendall]
Elias: and my answer is foaf & owl dl :>
15:09:35 [ericP]
AndyS: I don't find the FOAF example so compelling because you can always use mbox or mbox_sha1 [FOAF IFPs]
15:09:55 [ericP]
... I find update more compelling
15:10:14 [EliasT]
I know FOAF, OWLDL uses bNodes, but I don't know of toolkits that can tell you that two bNodes point to the same person... or for that fact take a bNodes as an input to their query.
15:11:02 [DanC]
EliasT, there are a number of such toolkits. cwm has a "smushing" mode, for example.
15:11:12 [ericP]
PatH: I find asking the server to create URIs which it is willing to author more appealing
15:11:46 [ericP]
LeeF: that puts a slightly larger burden on the servers that *do* offer bNode stability
15:12:00 [ericP]
AndyS: can be done with a simple map
15:13:34 [ericP]
KendallC: URI label space solution makes me nervous as I don't know the implications on OWL/DL
15:13:45 [ericP]
... protocol solution is interesting. want to think about it.
15:14:14 [ericP]
... glad we have a record of discussing this.
15:16:41 [AndyS]
Within rq23: FILTER ext:bnodeLabel(?x , "label") - it's mildly cheating
15:17:16 [kendall]
it's "h-u-f-f-i-t-y", huffity :>
15:17:32 [DanC]
DanC suggests we go with the design we have, with some flexibility about new information later.
15:19:01 [kendall]
it's all well and good (seriously) to suggest that FOAF allows URIs instead of bnodes, as well as definining mbox as IFP, but it doesn't seem like OWL DL has that flexibility.
15:19:32 [SteveH]
that doesnt mesh well with CONSTRUCT
15:19:38 [kendall]
It should be possible to query RDF vocabularies that require heavy use of bnodes in a user-friendly manner. ?
15:19:42 [DanC]
right, kendall, I think OWL DL does not (though I'm never quite sure without looking it up)
15:19:44 [kendall]
eh, that sucks, but ??
15:20:54 [ericP]
PatH: my intuition is that mapping to URIs has the same implications as re-using bNode labels.
15:20:55 [patH]
90 mins OK me
15:21:01 [ericP]
... but have to think about that hard
15:24:11 [ericP]
DanC: the effect of adopting Kendall's requirement is that the WG will spend weeks considering a technical solution
15:24:42 [DanC]
perhaps: it must be possible for a client to refer to a bnode provided by a server
15:25:21 [kendall]
i think that's better, dan
15:25:29 [ericP]
JosD, in my experience, I query billions of bNodes and lists and I haven't seen this problem come up.
15:25:46 [SteveH]
variable length lists are tricky
15:25:51 [kendall]
jos: i'd welcome you writing an email explaining yr experience in this regard
15:26:52 [LeeF]
DanC, does that wording place a requirement on servers to support this, or only on the QL to allow clients to ask queries hoping that the server supports it?
15:26:55 [kendall]
eric: i thought we found language in the present spec that does *not* allow that presently
15:27:21 [DanC]
perhaps: it must be possible for a client to refer to a bnode provided by a server
15:27:53 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:27:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DanC, HowardK, AndyS, EricP, Kendall_Clark, LeeF, SteveH, Elias, Souri, JosD, PatH
15:29:41 [kendall]
oops, sorry, he is on irc. my bad. ;>
15:30:48 [ericP]
+.5, +.5, -1, +1
15:31:03 [kendall]
eh the weakly = .5 thing should be non-canonical, IMO :>
15:31:24 [patH]
Jos, consider a list of children. I query the common children of Mary and Bill, and I get back a bnode indicating the list, which tells me that some children exist. I want to ask what is in the list. How do I refer to it?
15:32:07 [DanC]
do the same query, pat, and add more to it
15:32:32 [patH]
I think the problem we ahve here is that several folk do not see that there is a real problem. Suggestion: if non-idiotic users (Maryland) say thery have a problem, there really is a problem.
15:33:00 [Zakim]
15:33:13 [kendall]
fwiw, i don't know what design instantiates that distinction! :>
15:33:18 [DanC]
howardk is excused
15:33:20 [patH]
Add what, Dan? Do I have to put the RDF list syntax into my query? (Yech)
15:33:30 [DanC]
yes, yech, but it works, pat
15:33:54 [patH]
OK, sorry, I shuld know better than to say "yech" in an RDF context.
15:35:55 [SteveH]
always mapping bnodes into uris is messy
15:36:03 [SteveH]
having it be an option would be more acceptable IMHO
15:36:22 [kendall]
steveh: yes, i understand this as "you may do" instead of "you must do"
15:36:28 [DanC]
ok, our decision to go to last call is vacated, and we've got a new issue on our issues list.
15:36:36 [AndyS]
Would _!:xyz cover that?
15:36:56 [JosD]
Pat, it is pretty convenient with the ( list ) notation
15:37:00 [kendall]
Andy: splitting the bnode label space seems a variant of bnode->uri
15:37:25 [AndyS]
Sort of - but there are not forced to be URIs by design
15:37:27 [SteveH]
kendall, I meant optional at runtime, sorry wasnt clear
15:37:40 [ericP]
ACTION: PatH to consider implications of answering bNode bindings with created URIs
15:38:29 [ericP]
ACTION: KendallC to ask Bijan to consider implications of answering bNode bindings with created URIs
15:39:11 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
15:39:11 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:39:12 [Zakim]
2. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC]
15:39:13 [Zakim]
3. punctuationSyntax [from DanC]
15:39:15 [Zakim]
4. Comments [from DanC]
15:39:16 [Zakim]
5. SPARQL protocol publication [from DanC]
15:39:17 [Zakim]
6. SPARQL results format publication [from DanC]
15:39:17 [AndyS]
EricP : What about the other designs?
15:39:18 [Zakim]
7. tests [from DanC]
15:39:19 [SteveH]
JosD, you cant use the ( list ) notation in that case because of the :nil URI
15:39:19 [Zakim]
8. blank node handling... new requirements? [from DanC]
15:39:26 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 8
15:39:26 [Zakim]
agendum 8 closed
15:39:27 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:39:28 [Zakim]
2. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC]
15:40:03 [ericP]
AndyS, I only pushed on one of them, the one that I saw as most immediate
15:40:07 [DanC]
editors still working on optionals
15:40:12 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 2
15:40:12 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
15:40:13 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:40:14 [Zakim]
3. punctuationSyntax [from DanC]
15:40:16 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:40:17 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:40:36 [AndyS]
I'd like protocol considered because the requirment was for session usage
15:41:03 [ericP]
ACTION: JosD to fix up the relevant tests [recorded in]
15:41:06 [ericP]
15:41:10 [ericP]
action -7
15:41:14 [JosD]
SreveH, what is meant was e.g. query ... { ?X owl:interscetionOf (:a :b :c) ...}
15:41:48 [DanC]
syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq
15:42:00 [SteveH]
JosD, ah, sorry, I thought you were talking about the unknown list length case
15:42:36 [SteveH]
JosD, eg. find all the classes that this class is the intersection of, but you dont knwo how many there are
15:42:41 [DanC]
WHERE { :a. x.: : . } <- old or new bits?
15:42:49 [DanC]
15:43:25 [ericP]
ACTION: JosD to fix up the relevant tests [recorded in]
15:43:28 [ericP]
15:43:34 [DanC]
Zakim, close this agendum
15:43:34 [Zakim]
I do not know what agendum had been taken up, DanC
15:44:03 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item protocol
15:44:03 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "SPARQL protocol publication" taken up [from DanC]
15:44:21 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:44:21 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:44:51 [ericP]
KendallC: still have a short todo. spending time on query lang.
15:45:03 [ericP]
... no complaints apart from Mark Baker
15:45:45 [ericP]
DanC: what's standing in the way on Results Format?
15:46:15 [ericP]
EricP: we needed a namespace document. done. don't know what else is critical path.
15:48:04 [kendall]
I don't. :>
15:49:33 [DanC]
re results format, EricP notes an outstanding comment about xsi:type
15:49:40 [AndyS]
Dave recommedned I remove xsi:schemaLocation=... from example in rq23
15:49:47 [SteveH]
I'm happy to add some results test, but it will be atl east a week
15:49:53 [SteveH]
before I can do it
15:50:09 [DanC]
(ericp, in the minutes, please continue my 2 actions under the Comments item)
15:50:15 [ericP]
xsi:type on sparql:literal elements -->
15:51:50 [ericP]
DanC: is it ok if one puts spurious extra attributes without changing the meaning?
15:52:39 [DanC]
15:52:40 [Zakim]
15:52:48 [Zakim]
15:52:50 [Zakim]
15:52:55 [Zakim]
15:54:22 [ericP]
DanC, can you do the scribe script magic?
15:55:07 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:55:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
15:55:20 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:55:47 [DanC]
re "... vacated..."; the LC decision stands, pending outcome of the actions re blank nodes and the optionals action
16:01:28 [kendall]
oops, my lunch plans kick in. ciao
16:01:32 [Zakim]
16:02:48 [EliasT]
EliasT has left #dawg
16:03:03 [Zakim]
16:03:48 [DanC]
<LeeF> DanC, does that wording place a requirement on servers to support this, or only on the QL to allow clients to ask queries hoping that the server supports it?
16:04:20 [DanC]
good question... the question before the WG was really: is this worth some schedule to slip to study?
16:05:20 [LeeF]
16:06:28 [patH]
Suggest that we cut out too much stufy by using the permissive alterntaive when possible.
16:06:36 [patH]
16:07:07 [LeeF]
Is there a good resource(s) available to learn the various w3 tools that I could use to learn to contribute more to the wokrings of the WG? (how to scribe, add tests, that sort of thing)?
16:07:38 [Zakim]
16:12:08 [DanC]
LeeF, the WG home page ( ) is intended to serve in that way
16:12:38 [DanC]
e.g. it has a link to "scribe tips"
16:12:52 [DanC]
as far as I know, "now to add a test case" is lightly, if at all, documented.
16:13:03 [DanC]
how to...
16:13:23 [DanC]
there are several WG members that know how to do it; SteveH is the test editor/coordinator
16:14:21 [Zakim]
16:19:41 [Zakim]
16:20:11 [Zakim]
16:20:12 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:20:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were DanC, HowardK, AndyS, EricP, Kendall_Clark, LeeF, SteveH, +1.323.444.aaaa, JosD, PatH, Souri, Elias
16:53:19 [LeeF]
Thanks, DanC.
18:07:47 [Zakim]
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