IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-06-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:52:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:52:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:53:11 [wendy]
19:53:15 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG
19:53:17 [wendy]
Chair: Gregg
19:53:30 [wendy]
agenda+ Techniques Task Force update
19:53:53 [wendy]
agenda+ test development and techniques, priorities for next few months, requirements for Last Call and beyond
19:54:00 [wendy]
agenda+ Harvest techniques and/or tests
19:54:30 [wendy]
wendy has changed the topic to: new working draft available at:
19:57:48 [Sebastiano]
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19:59:17 [Christophe]
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19:59:26 [bengt]
bengt has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:19 [Becky]
Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:23 [Andi]
Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:39 [Zakim]
20:01:40 [Zakim]
20:01:46 [Andi]
zakim IBM is Andi
20:01:57 [Zakim]
20:02:05 [ben]
zakim, ??P7 is Ben
20:02:05 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
20:02:09 [Zakim]
20:02:15 [Zakim]
20:02:20 [Yvette]
zakim, ??P8 is Yvette
20:02:20 [Zakim]
+Yvette; got it
20:02:24 [Andi]
zakim, IBM is Andi
20:02:24 [Zakim]
+Andi; got it
20:02:28 [wendy]
yvette? can you minute today?
20:02:28 [Zakim]
20:02:32 [mcmay_BYE]
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20:02:39 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Andi, Becky_Gibson, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben, Yvette, Wendy, ??P9
20:02:40 [Yvette]
sorry, I'm very tired so rather not
20:02:44 [bengt]
zakim, ??P9 is Bengt_Farre
20:02:44 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
20:02:51 [Yvette]
I just worked all day and had a meeting afterwards
20:02:53 [Zakim]
20:02:53 [wendy]
yvette - no worries.
20:03:25 [Andi]
Wendy, I can take minutes
20:03:35 [wendy]
andi - thank you.
20:03:38 [wendy]
scribe: Andi
20:03:48 [Zakim]
20:04:50 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
20:04:51 [David]
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20:04:59 [David]
20:05:07 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Chris_Ridpath (19%), Michael_Cooper (3%), Becky_Gibson (52%), Christophe_Strobbe (0%)
20:05:16 [Zakim]
20:06:17 [Yvette]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:06:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Andi, Becky_Gibson, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben, Yvette, Wendy, Bengt_Farre, Matt, Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:06:55 [Zakim]
20:07:05 [wendy]
zakim, take up first item
20:07:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up first item', wendy
20:07:14 [wendy]
20:07:18 [Tim]
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20:07:20 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 1
20:07:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Techniques Task Force update" taken up [from wendy]
20:07:30 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
20:07:33 [Zakim]
20:07:53 [Andi]
Baseline affects which techniques are relevant at which level
20:08:53 [Andi]
leaning towards describing techniques with respect to individual technologies, not common baselines
20:09:20 [Andi]
need to close requirements document
20:09:37 [Andi]
as we approach Last Call, need to make sure that we are willing to be held to the requirements
20:09:53 [Andi]
At Last Call, if we haven't met any of the requirements, we can get bumped back in the process
20:10:13 [Andi]
action item to clean up requirements, in particular the "musts"
20:19:56 [Zakim]
20:20:54 [wendy]
wendy has changed the topic to: sing along with WCAG WG
20:21:19 [wendy]
RRSAgent, off
20:39:22 [Becky]
scribe: becky
20:40:56 [Becky]
gv: today will focus on techniques
20:41:49 [Sebastiano]
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20:42:47 [Sebastiano]
zakim, who's here?
20:42:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Andi, Becky_Gibson, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben, Yvette, Wendy, Bengt_Farre, Matt, Tim_Boland, Alex_Li, Mike_Barta,
20:42:50 [Zakim]
... Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:42:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Sebastiano, gregg, Tim, David, mcmay_BYE, Andi, Becky, bengt, Christophe, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisR, Yvette, wendy, ben, Michael
20:44:06 [Becky]
wc: congrats on getting the draft out!
20:44:59 [Sebastiano_]
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20:45:25 [Becky]
mc: need to go thru GL comprehensively and thinking most about script techs as these are least developed
20:46:00 [Becky]
mc: suggest walking thru GLs and thinking about script techs
20:48:20 [joeclark]
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20:49:39 [Becky]
mc: will harvest ideas - no discusions but can note objections (w/o details) to proposed script techs
20:49:42 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:49:42 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "test development and techniques, priorities for next few months, requirements for Last Call and beyond" taken up [from wendy]
20:49:50 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:49:50 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, wendy
20:49:55 [wendy]
zakim, close item 2
20:49:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
20:49:56 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
20:49:57 [Zakim]
3. Harvest techniques and/or tests [from wendy]
20:49:58 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:49:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Harvest techniques and/or tests" taken up [from wendy]
20:50:20 [Becky]
mc: GL 1.1 SC1 - have several HTML and one CSS
20:51:12 [Becky]
mc: non-text content generated by script must have text alternatives is one way of thinking about
20:51:19 [Zakim]
20:51:47 [ben]
zakim, ??P5 is Joe_Clark
20:51:47 [Zakim]
+Joe_Clark; got it
20:53:18 [ben]
success criterion to techniques mapping -
20:53:39 [Becky]
mc: tech-nontext elements generated by script must have text alternatives
20:54:49 [Becky]
bg: tech-need to show how to properly add non-text elements that will work with AT
20:55:06 [Zakim]
20:55:28 [Becky]
bg: clarify - add non-text elements via scripting
20:56:21 [Becky]
gv: what about using script for hiding content?
20:57:02 [Becky]
jc: that tech is often used for learning disabilities
20:57:42 [gregg]
script used to hide text must be accounted for as well
20:57:59 [joeclark]
but of course that also applies to HTML comments, display: none, and visibility: hidden
20:58:59 [Becky]
mc: move on to GL 1.1 SC2
20:59:49 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
20:59:49 [Zakim]
Yvette should now be muted
21:00:01 [gregg]
a link to a sequence of pages that provide function (for some simple function)
21:00:25 [Michael]
describe the Becky nightmare where page has to reload over and over
21:00:48 [Michael]
might be 4.2 stuf
21:01:05 [Becky]
bg: noted that seems like an HTML rather than script tech
21:01:19 [Becky]
mc: but is a way to provide fallback when scripting not available
21:02:02 [Becky]
mc: need gen. tech for what is a good alt. for functional non-text content - simple example is a calculater
21:02:11 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:02:11 [Zakim]
Yvette should no longer be muted
21:02:18 [Becky]
gv: could provide link to server side implementation
21:02:47 [Becky]
yh: client side forms validation with server side back up
21:03:13 [Becky]
mc: see that as under another GL but log it here
21:03:37 [Becky]
mc: move onto sensory non-text content GL 1.1 L1 SC3
21:04:28 [Becky]
gv: text labels above and below the sensory content
21:05:42 [wendy]
Regrets: Roberto Castaldo, Sebastiano Nutarelli, Luca Mascaro, WATANABE Takayuki, Makoto UEKI, Loretta Guarino Reid, Roberto Ellero, Roberto Scano
21:05:55 [Becky]
mc: next: GL 1.1 L1 SC4
21:06:06 [Becky]
yh: need css tech for using images as list item bullets
21:06:30 [Becky]
tb: thought we had that tech but got rid of it
21:06:47 [Becky]
jc: css background images are being used freq now
21:07:13 [Becky]
jc: for decorative images
21:07:58 [Becky]
yh: can also use css for non-essential background audio
21:08:10 [Zakim]
21:09:15 [Becky]
mc: would we consider no-script element with no content?
21:09:29 [Becky]
gv: putting it in a fashion so if script is not supported it just disappears
21:10:04 [Becky]
gv: for decorative content
21:10:44 [Becky]
mc: this becomes a tech. that just explains that you don't have to do anything (for scripting that is not essential to operation)
21:11:04 [Becky]
mc: GL 1.1 L1 SC 5 - currently no techs
21:11:25 [Becky]
yh: can map the same techs as for SC 3
21:12:07 [Zakim]
21:12:17 [Becky]
wc: tech for meta refresh for web cams - traffic cams for ex.
21:12:48 [Becky]
mc: next - GL1.1 L3 SC1
21:12:56 [ChrisR]
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21:13:00 [Zakim]
21:13:10 [Becky]
mc: gen tech about what captions are and audio desc. are and how to provide
21:13:55 [Becky]
mc: next GL 2.1 L1 SC1
21:14:21 [Becky]
mc: correct - GL 1.2 L1 SC1
21:14:53 [Becky]
wc: need to provide information about caption formats
21:15:15 [Becky]
wc: that can be used - can link to other sites with that info
21:15:51 [Becky]
yh: can store user settings in a cookie - this can apply to several diff SC
21:16:06 [Becky]
gv: provide a script button to access the captions
21:16:18 [wendy]
wac: link to flash techniques
21:16:58 [ben]
should also include discussion of open captioned format alongside non-captioned
21:18:27 [Michael]
relates to question about relationship of general to tech specific techs
21:18:41 [Becky]
topic: GL 1.2 L1 SC2
21:18:48 [Andi]
scribe: Andi
21:19:18 [Andi]
mc: needs techniques that describe audio descriptions and how to create them
21:19:36 [Andi]
yh: techniques for switching audio tracks
21:19:56 [wendy]
ADI guidelines for AD -
21:20:15 [Andi]
wc: ADI guidelines for AD -
21:20:50 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.2 L2 SC1
21:21:13 [Andi]
yh: techniques for time shifting?
21:21:31 [Andi]
gv: techniques are the same - maybe we should talk about streaming captions
21:21:45 [Andi]
wc: most RT captions are a service that you can buy
21:22:03 [wendy]
21:22:09 [Andi]
gv: could talk about captions being provided in a separate window
21:22:20 [Andi]
gv: could also talk about open captions
21:22:27 [wendy]
internet text streaming -
21:22:34 [Andi]
wc: e.g.
21:22:41 [Andi]
wc: internet text streaming -
21:23:16 [Andi]
action: Wendy to provide some links from her research
21:23:25 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.2 L3 SC1
21:23:36 [gregg]
link to stable site that provides description of different options for real time captioning
21:23:56 [Andi]
yh: techniques for providing sign language video
21:24:05 [wendy]
e.g., vcom 3d
21:24:10 [Andi]
mc: techniques on picture in picture display
21:24:44 [Andi]
mc: SMIL techniques for sizing and positionin window
21:24:53 [gregg]
present in separate window
21:24:57 [Andi]
wc: most of issues came from RNID
21:25:12 [Andi]
wc: suggests getting RNID to provide techniques
21:25:24 [Andi]
yh: techniques for where to position
21:26:00 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.2 L3 SC2
21:26:33 [wendy]">
21:26:41 [wendy]
Creating Extended Audio Descriptions in QuickTime
21:26:42 [Andi]
mc: same as audio descriptions, SMIL 2 will have a way to pause video
21:27:16 [Andi]
wc: NCAM has lots of resources
21:27:17 [wendy]
AD tutorials:
21:27:34 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.2 L3 SC 3
21:27:52 [Andi]
gv: techniques are the same
21:27:56 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:27:56 [Zakim]
Yvette should now be muted
21:28:22 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:28:22 [Zakim]
Yvette should no longer be muted
21:28:42 [Andi]
wc: John Slatin's performance where the audio description was scripted but done "live"
21:29:14 [Andi]
gv: radio describes - that's why lots of people listen to the radio and watch at the same time
21:29:22 [Andi]
gv: problems with feasibility
21:29:38 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.3 L1 SC1
21:29:57 [Andi]
mc: have lots of HTML techniques but no general techniques
21:30:05 [Andi]
mc: CSS techniques around positioning, styling
21:30:32 [Andi]
bg: scripting - create elements when creating new content
21:32:34 [Andi]
yh: relationship between caption/audio description and multimedia - does that need to go here too?
21:32:55 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.3 L1 SC2
21:33:21 [Andi]
yh: style switcher
21:33:57 [Andi]
yh: asterisk near required field instead of just making it red
21:34:25 [Andi]
mc: emphasis element and coloring rather than just using span with color
21:34:41 [Andi]
yh: color for headings
21:35:11 [Andi]
mc: script technique that is cautionary - don't just change the color unless also setting some structural attribute
21:35:26 [Andi]
bg: it's an issue when creating elements
21:35:43 [Andi]
bc: encoding color so that it can be programmatically determined
21:35:59 [Andi]
bg: have to specify it a certain way so that ATs can pick it up
21:36:35 [Andi]
yh: techniques for indicating correct and incorrect
21:36:48 [Andi]
dm: wrote general techniques for forms
21:37:01 [Andi]
yh: can you map one technique to two SC?
21:37:03 [Andi]
mc: yes
21:37:41 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.3 L2 SC1
21:38:24 [Andi]
gv: choosing technologies whose players expose text attributes to AT
21:40:06 [Andi]
yh: not using CSS as the only way to indicate a blockquote
21:40:33 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.3 L2 SC2
21:40:50 [Andi]
mc: similar to L1 techniques
21:41:41 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.3 L3 SC1
21:42:11 [Andi]
bg: should be some script techniques but can't think of any at the moment
21:42:28 [Andi]
as: tabindex? may be covered by 2.4
21:42:40 [Andi]
yh: negative CSS technique - don't put stuff out of sequence
21:43:26 [Andi]
mc: css techniques for affecting the layout, when that fails, the order should still be relevant
21:43:38 [Andi]
yh/mc: sequences between delivery units
21:43:50 [Andi]
bg: script to provide style switcher
21:44:26 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.4 L1 SC1
21:45:13 [Andi]
yh: css techniques for background images and colors
21:45:21 [Andi]
yh: css technique for layered divs
21:45:34 [Andi]
bg: script techniques for hiding them
21:45:54 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.4 L2 SC1
21:46:42 [Andi]
gv: should have only general techniques
21:48:04 [Zakim]
21:49:05 [Andi]
mc: may still be good to have html and css techniques but suggest looking at general techniques also
21:49:18 [Andi]
GL 1.4 L2 SC2
21:50:55 [Andi]
gv: if no tools a lot of this is pretty tricky
21:51:01 [Andi]
yh: link to tools
21:51:13 [Andi]
mc: tools only check - how do we tell authors what they have to do
21:52:11 [Andi]
gv: stem is the main part of the character, not the serif
21:52:26 [Andi]
mc: general techniques
21:52:34 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.4 L2 SC3
21:52:46 [Andi]
bg: script technique with a button
21:52:54 [Andi]
yh: cookie technique that remembers settings
21:53:12 [Andi]
mc: html technique with bgsound
21:53:18 [Andi]
gv: cookie technique with a script
21:53:30 [Andi]
bc: html techniques around autoplay
21:53:51 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.4 L3 SC1
21:54:17 [Andi]
gv: expect to lose some of these provisions when we get the final numbers
21:55:16 [Andi]
mc: css and html techniques for using foreground and background colors
21:55:52 [Andi]
mc/gv: mostly in general techniques
21:56:02 [Michael]
make sure scripted colour changes to create violations that weren't there before
21:56:25 [Andi]
yh: script technique - moving text must have sufficient contrast with all the places it can move to
21:57:16 [Andi]
topic: GL 1.4 L3 SC2
21:57:34 [Andi]
gv: general techniques - strategy for measuring
21:58:18 [David]
zakim, mute me
21:58:18 [Zakim]
David_MacDonald should now be muted
22:01:24 [David]
I could also send an CD
22:02:54 [David]
22:02:55 [Zakim]
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22:02:57 [Zakim]
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22:02:58 [Zakim]
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22:03:02 [Zakim]
22:03:03 [Zakim]
22:03:04 [Zakim]
22:03:06 [Zakim]
22:03:08 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:03:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben, Wendy, Yvette, Andi, Bengt_Farre, Matt, Tim_Boland,
22:03:13 [Zakim]
... Alex_Li, Mike_Barta, Joe_Clark
22:03:17 [mcmay_BYE]
mcmay_BYE has left #wai-wcag
22:04:38 [Andi]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:04:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Andi
22:06:36 [ben]
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22:08:22 [Christophe]
RRSAgent, make log public
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