19:52:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:52:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/30-wai-wcag-irc
19:53:11 <wendy> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0996.html
19:53:15 <wendy> Meeting: WCAG WG
19:53:17 <wendy> Chair: Gregg
19:53:30 <wendy> agenda+ Techniques Task Force update
19:53:53 <wendy> agenda+ test development and techniques, priorities for next few months, requirements for Last Call and beyond 
19:54:00 <wendy> agenda+ Harvest techniques and/or tests
19:54:30 <wendy> wendy has changed the topic to: new working draft available at: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20050630/
19:57:48 <Sebastiano> Sebastiano has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:17 <Christophe> Christophe has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:26 <bengt> bengt has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:19 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:23 <Andi> Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:39 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:01:40 <Zakim> +Christophe_Strobbe
20:01:46 <Andi> zakim IBM is Andi
20:01:57 <Zakim> +??P7
20:02:05 <ben> zakim, ??P7 is Ben
20:02:05 <Zakim> +Ben; got it
20:02:09 <Zakim> +??P8
20:02:15 <Zakim> +Wendy
20:02:20 <Yvette> zakim, ??P8 is Yvette
20:02:20 <Zakim> +Yvette; got it
20:02:24 <Andi> zakim, IBM is Andi
20:02:24 <Zakim> +Andi; got it
20:02:28 <wendy> yvette? can you minute today?
20:02:28 <Zakim> +??P9
20:02:32 <mcmay_BYE> mcmay_BYE has joined #wai-wcag
20:02:39 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Andi, Becky_Gibson, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben, Yvette, Wendy, ??P9
20:02:40 <Yvette> sorry, I'm very tired so rather not
20:02:44 <bengt> zakim, ??P9 is Bengt_Farre
20:02:44 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre; got it
20:02:51 <Yvette> I just worked all day and had a meeting afterwards
20:02:53 <Zakim> +Matt
20:02:53 <wendy> yvette - no worries.
20:03:25 <Andi> Wendy, I can take minutes
20:03:35 <wendy> andi - thank you.
20:03:38 <wendy> scribe: Andi
20:03:48 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:04:50 <wendy> zakim, who's talking?
20:04:51 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:59 <David> test
20:05:07 <Zakim> wendy, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Chris_Ridpath (19%), Michael_Cooper (3%), Becky_Gibson (52%), Christophe_Strobbe (0%)
20:05:16 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:06:17 <Yvette> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:06:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Andi, Becky_Gibson, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben, Yvette, Wendy, Bengt_Farre, Matt, Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:06:55 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
20:07:05 <wendy> zakim, take up first item
20:07:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', wendy
20:07:14 <wendy> agenda?
20:07:18 <Tim> Tim has joined #wai-wcag
20:07:20 <wendy> zakim, take up item 1
20:07:20 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Techniques Task Force update" taken up [from wendy]
20:07:30 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
20:07:33 <Zakim> +Alex_Li
20:07:53 <Andi> Baseline affects which techniques are relevant at which level
20:08:53 <Andi> leaning towards describing techniques with respect to individual technologies, not common baselines
20:09:20 <Andi> need to close requirements document
20:09:37 <Andi> as we approach Last Call, need to make sure that we are willing to be held to the requirements
20:09:53 <Andi> At Last Call, if we haven't met any of the requirements, we can get bumped back in the process
20:10:13 <Andi> action item to clean up requirements, in particular the "musts"
20:19:56 <Zakim> +Mike_Barta
20:20:54 <wendy> wendy has changed the topic to: sing along with WCAG WG
20:21:19 <wendy> RRSAgent, off
20:39:22 <Becky> scribe: becky
20:40:56 <Becky> gv: today will focus on techniques
20:41:49 <Sebastiano> Sebastiano has joined #wai-wcag
20:42:47 <Sebastiano> zakim, who's here?
20:42:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Andi, Becky_Gibson, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben, Yvette, Wendy, Bengt_Farre, Matt, Tim_Boland, Alex_Li, Mike_Barta,
20:42:50 <Zakim> ... Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:42:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see Sebastiano, gregg, Tim, David, mcmay_BYE, Andi, Becky, bengt, Christophe, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisR, Yvette, wendy, ben, Michael
20:44:06 <Becky> wc: congrats on getting the draft out!
20:44:59 <Sebastiano_> Sebastiano_ has joined #wai-wcag
20:45:25 <Becky> mc: need to go thru GL comprehensively and thinking most about script techs as these are least developed
20:46:00 <Becky> mc: suggest walking thru GLs and thinking about script techs 
20:48:20 <joeclark> joeclark has joined #wai-wcag
20:49:39 <Becky> mc: will harvest ideas - no discusions but can note objections (w/o details) to proposed script techs
20:49:42 <wendy> zakim, next item
20:49:42 <Zakim> agendum 2. "test development and techniques, priorities for next few months, requirements for Last Call and beyond" taken up [from wendy]
20:49:50 <wendy> zakim, next item
20:49:50 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, wendy
20:49:55 <wendy> zakim, close item 2
20:49:55 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
20:49:56 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
20:49:57 <Zakim> 3. Harvest techniques and/or tests [from wendy]
20:49:58 <wendy> zakim, next item
20:49:58 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Harvest techniques and/or tests" taken up [from wendy]
20:50:20 <Becky> mc: GL 1.1 SC1 - have several HTML and one CSS
20:51:12 <Becky> mc: non-text content generated by script must have text alternatives is one way of thinking about
20:51:19 <Zakim> +??P5
20:51:47 <ben> zakim, ??P5 is Joe_Clark
20:51:47 <Zakim> +Joe_Clark; got it
20:53:18 <ben> success criterion to techniques mapping - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/30-sc-techniques-mapping.html
20:53:39 <Becky> mc: tech-nontext elements generated by script must have text alternatives
20:54:49 <Becky> bg: tech-need to show how to properly add non-text elements that will work with AT
20:55:06 <Zakim> -Mike_Barta
20:55:28 <Becky> bg: clarify - add non-text elements via scripting
20:56:21 <Becky> gv: what about using script for hiding content?
20:57:02 <Becky> jc: that tech is often used for learning disabilities
20:57:42 <gregg> script used to hide text must be accounted for as well
20:57:59 <joeclark> but of course that also applies to HTML comments, display: none, and visibility: hidden
20:58:59 <Becky> mc: move on to GL 1.1 SC2
20:59:49 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
20:59:49 <Zakim> Yvette should now be muted
21:00:01 <gregg> a link to a sequence of pages that provide function (for some simple function)
21:00:25 <Michael> describe the Becky nightmare where page has to reload over and over
21:00:48 <Michael> might be 4.2 stuf
21:01:05 <Becky> bg: noted that seems like an HTML rather than script tech
21:01:19 <Becky> mc: but is a way to provide fallback when scripting not available
21:02:02 <Becky> mc: need gen. tech for what is a good alt. for functional non-text content - simple example is a calculater
21:02:11 <Yvette> zakim, unmute me
21:02:11 <Zakim> Yvette should no longer be muted
21:02:18 <Becky> gv: could provide link to server side implementation
21:02:47 <Becky> yh: client side forms validation with server side back up
21:03:13 <Becky> mc: see that as under another  GL but log it here
21:03:37 <Becky> mc: move onto sensory non-text content GL 1.1 L1 SC3
21:04:28 <Becky> gv: text labels above and below the sensory content
21:05:42 <wendy> Regrets: Roberto Castaldo, Sebastiano Nutarelli, Luca Mascaro, WATANABE Takayuki, Makoto UEKI, Loretta Guarino Reid, Roberto Ellero, Roberto Scano
21:05:55 <Becky> mc: next: GL 1.1 L1 SC4
21:06:06 <Becky> yh: need css tech for using images as list item bullets
21:06:30 <Becky> tb: thought we had that tech but got rid of it
21:06:47 <Becky> jc: css background images are being used freq now
21:07:13 <Becky> jc: for decorative images
21:07:58 <Becky> yh: can also use css for non-essential background audio
21:08:10 <Zakim> -Joe_Clark
21:09:15 <Becky> mc: would we consider no-script element with no content? 
21:09:29 <Becky> gv: putting it in a fashion so if script is not supported it just disappears
21:10:04 <Becky> gv: for decorative content
21:10:44 <Becky> mc: this becomes a tech. that just explains that you don't have to do anything (for scripting that is not essential to operation)
21:11:04 <Becky> mc: GL 1.1 L1 SC 5 - currently no techs
21:11:25 <Becky> yh: can map the same techs as for SC 3
21:12:07 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
21:12:17 <Becky> wc: tech for meta refresh for web cams - traffic cams for ex.
21:12:48 <Becky> mc: next - GL1.1 L3 SC1
21:12:56 <ChrisR> ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
21:13:00 <Zakim> -Chris_Ridpath
21:13:10 <Becky> mc: gen tech about what captions are and audio desc. are and how to provide
21:13:55 <Becky> mc: next GL 2.1 L1 SC1
21:14:21 <Becky> mc: correct - GL 1.2 L1 SC1
21:14:53 <Becky> wc: need to provide information about caption formats
21:15:15 <Becky> wc: that can be used - can link to other sites with that info
21:15:51 <Becky> yh: can store user settings in a cookie - this can apply to several diff SC
21:16:06 <Becky> gv: provide a script button to access the captions
21:16:18 <wendy> wac: link to flash techniques
21:16:58 <ben> should also include discussion of open captioned format alongside non-captioned 
21:18:27 <Michael> relates to question about relationship of general to tech specific techs
21:18:41 <Becky> topic: GL 1.2 L1 SC2
21:18:48 <Andi> scribe: Andi
21:19:18 <Andi> mc: needs techniques that describe audio descriptions and how to create them
21:19:36 <Andi> yh: techniques for switching audio tracks
21:19:56 <wendy> ADI guidelines for AD - http://adinternational.org/ADIguidelines.html
21:20:15 <Andi> wc: ADI guidelines for AD - http://adinternational.org/ADIguidelines.html
21:20:50 <Andi> topic: GL 1.2 L2 SC1
21:21:13 <Andi> yh: techniques for time shifting?
21:21:31 <Andi> gv: techniques are the same - maybe we should talk about streaming captions
21:21:45 <Andi> wc: most RT captions are a service that you can buy
21:22:03 <wendy> e.g. http://www.captioncolorado.com/
21:22:09 <Andi> gv: could talk about captions being provided in a separate window
21:22:20 <Andi> gv: could also talk about open captions
21:22:27 <wendy> internet text streaming - http://www.captioncolorado.com/products/internet.html
21:22:34 <Andi> wc: e.g. http://www.captioncolorado.com/
21:22:41 <Andi> wc: internet text streaming - http://www.captioncolorado.com/products/internet.html
21:23:16 <Andi> action: Wendy to provide some links from her research
21:23:25 <Andi> topic: GL 1.2 L3 SC1
21:23:36 <gregg> link to stable site that provides description of different options for real time captioning
21:23:56 <Andi> yh: techniques for providing sign language video
21:24:05 <wendy> e.g., vcom 3d http://www.vcom3d.com/
21:24:10 <Andi> mc: techniques on picture in picture display
21:24:44 <Andi> mc: SMIL techniques for sizing and positionin window
21:24:53 <gregg> present in separate window
21:24:57 <Andi> wc: most of issues came from RNID
21:25:12 <Andi> wc: suggests getting RNID to provide techniques
21:25:24 <Andi> yh: techniques for where to position
21:26:00 <Andi> topic: GL 1.2 L3 SC2
21:26:33 <wendy> http://ncam.wgbh.org/richmedia/tutorials/qtxad.html http://ncam.wgbh.org/richmedia/tutorials/qtxad.html
21:26:41 <wendy> Creating Extended Audio Descriptions in QuickTime
21:26:42 <Andi> mc: same as audio descriptions, SMIL 2 will have a way to pause video 
21:27:16 <Andi> wc: NCAM has lots of resources
21:27:17 <wendy> AD tutorials: http://ncam.wgbh.org/richmedia/strategies/XAD.php
21:27:34 <Andi> topic: GL 1.2 L3 SC 3
21:27:52 <Andi> gv: techniques are the same
21:27:56 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
21:27:56 <Zakim> Yvette should now be muted
21:28:22 <Yvette> zakim, unmute me
21:28:22 <Zakim> Yvette should no longer be muted
21:28:42 <Andi> wc: John Slatin's performance where the audio description was scripted but done "live"
21:29:14 <Andi> gv: radio describes - that's why lots of people listen to the radio and watch at the same time
21:29:22 <Andi> gv: problems with feasibility
21:29:38 <Andi> topic: GL 1.3 L1 SC1
21:29:57 <Andi> mc: have lots of HTML techniques but no general techniques
21:30:05 <Andi> mc: CSS techniques around positioning, styling
21:30:32 <Andi> bg: scripting - create elements when creating new content
21:32:34 <Andi> yh: relationship between caption/audio description and multimedia - does that need to go here too?
21:32:55 <Andi> topic: GL 1.3 L1 SC2
21:33:21 <Andi> yh: style switcher
21:33:57 <Andi> yh: asterisk near required field instead of just making it red
21:34:25 <Andi> mc: emphasis element and coloring rather than just using span with color
21:34:41 <Andi> yh: color for headings
21:35:11 <Andi> mc: script technique that is cautionary - don't just change the color unless also setting some structural attribute
21:35:26 <Andi> bg: it's an issue when creating elements
21:35:43 <Andi> bc: encoding color so that it can be programmatically determined
21:35:59 <Andi> bg: have to specify it a certain way so that ATs can pick it up
21:36:35 <Andi> yh: techniques for indicating correct and incorrect 
21:36:48 <Andi> dm: wrote general techniques for forms
21:37:01 <Andi> yh: can you map one technique to two SC?
21:37:03 <Andi> mc: yes
21:37:41 <Andi> topic: GL 1.3 L2 SC1
21:38:24 <Andi> gv: choosing technologies whose players expose text attributes to AT
21:40:06 <Andi> yh: not using CSS as the only way to indicate a blockquote
21:40:33 <Andi> topic: GL 1.3 L2 SC2
21:40:50 <Andi> mc: similar to L1 techniques
21:41:41 <Andi> topic: GL 1.3 L3 SC1
21:42:11 <Andi> bg: should be some script techniques but can't think of any at the moment
21:42:28 <Andi> as: tabindex? may be covered by 2.4
21:42:40 <Andi> yh: negative CSS technique - don't put stuff out of sequence
21:43:26 <Andi> mc: css techniques for affecting the layout, when that fails, the order should still be relevant
21:43:38 <Andi> yh/mc: sequences between delivery units
21:43:50 <Andi> bg: script to provide style switcher
21:44:26 <Andi> topic: GL 1.4 L1 SC1
21:45:13 <Andi> yh: css techniques for background images and colors
21:45:21 <Andi> yh: css technique for layered divs
21:45:34 <Andi> bg: script techniques for hiding them
21:45:54 <Andi> topic: GL 1.4 L2 SC1
21:46:42 <Andi> gv: should have only general techniques
21:48:04 <Zakim> -Wendy
21:49:05 <Andi> mc: may still be good to have html and css techniques but suggest looking at general techniques also
21:49:18 <Andi> GL 1.4 L2 SC2
21:50:55 <Andi> gv: if no tools a lot of this is pretty tricky
21:51:01 <Andi> yh: link to tools
21:51:13 <Andi> mc: tools only check - how do we tell authors what they have to do
21:52:11 <Andi> gv: stem is the main part of the character, not the serif
21:52:26 <Andi> mc: general techniques
21:52:34 <Andi> topic: GL 1.4 L2 SC3
21:52:46 <Andi> bg: script technique with a button
21:52:54 <Andi> yh: cookie technique that remembers settings
21:53:12 <Andi> mc: html technique with bgsound
21:53:18 <Andi> gv: cookie technique with a script
21:53:30 <Andi> bc: html techniques around autoplay
21:53:51 <Andi> topic: GL 1.4 L3 SC1
21:54:17 <Andi> gv: expect to lose some of these provisions when we get the final numbers
21:55:16 <Andi> mc: css and html techniques for using foreground and background colors
21:55:52 <Andi> mc/gv: mostly in general techniques
21:56:02 <Michael> make sure scripted colour changes to create violations that weren't there before
21:56:25 <Andi> yh: script technique - moving text must have sufficient contrast with all the places it can move to
21:57:16 <Andi> topic: GL 1.4 L3 SC2
21:57:34 <Andi> gv: general techniques - strategy for measuring
21:58:18 <David> zakim, mute me
21:58:18 <Zakim> David_MacDonald should now be muted
22:01:24 <David> I could also send an CD
22:02:54 <David> bye
22:02:55 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
22:02:57 <Zakim> -Andi
22:02:57 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
22:02:58 <Zakim> -Matt
22:02:58 <Zakim> -Yvette
22:02:59 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
22:03:00 <Zakim> -Ben
22:03:02 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
22:03:03 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
22:03:04 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
22:03:06 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
22:03:08 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:03:10 <Zakim> Attendees were David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben, Wendy, Yvette, Andi, Bengt_Farre, Matt, Tim_Boland,
22:03:13 <Zakim> ... Alex_Li, Mike_Barta, Joe_Clark
22:03:17 <mcmay_BYE> mcmay_BYE has left #wai-wcag
22:04:38 <Andi> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:04:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/30-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
22:06:36 <ben> ben has left #wai-wcag
22:08:22 <Christophe> RRSAgent, make log public
22:09:02 <joeclark> joeclark has left #wai-wcag
22:09:17 <Andi> Andi has left #wai-wcag
22:10:17 <Christophe> Christophe has left #wai-wcag