17:04:11 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:04:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-irc 17:04:35 Scribe: Ed 17:04:48 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/06/28-agenda.html 17:05:00 Chair: Vincent 17:05:12 Meeting to order 17:05:20 Topic: Admnistrative topics 17:05:50 Approval of minutes from F2F ? 17:07:09 (found http://www.w3.org/2005/06/15-tagmem-minutes ; marking it not world-readable) 17:07:11 Dan: where working minutes marked draft? or deleted? 17:07:32 Resolved: Cambridge f2f edited version have been approved 17:07:48 Approval of last teleconferance? 17:08:13 Dan: they say draft 17:08:24 (also set http://www.w3.org/2005/06/16-tagmem-minutes.html,access to member-only) 17:08:36 Ed would rather that they didnt say draft.. 17:08:52 Vincent: its difficult to change because they're in the archives 17:08:57 Ed, I think its ok. 17:09:13 Dad: If your going to mail them out, please dont say 'draft'. 17:09:23 s/Dad:/Dan:/ 17:09:27 Resolved: last teleconferance minutes accepted. 17:09:38 :) 17:09:57 note 4 July holiday in the U.S. 17:09:59 Topic. Next teleconferance 17:10:06 regrets from Roy, Noah 17:10:29 Scribe for next week: Dave 17:11:15 Topic: Agenda for today 17:11:40 Please note that Noah has sent regrets for both July 5 and July 12. I expect to be back on the 19th (by which time it may well be my turn to scribe.) 17:11:44 Vincent: we may change the discussion around schemeProtocols-49 some, based on email. 17:11:54 no other additions/changes noted. 17:12:32 Vincent: Paul Cotton noted that we did not publish a Qtrly report since last march 17:13:31 Action: Vincent to write something based on what was presented at the AC meeting earlier this month and will circulate to the mailing list. After comments he will publish this. 17:13:46 +TimBL 17:15:32 ack danc 17:15:32 DanC, you wanted to wonder if I'm supposed to take care of tag-announce 17:15:38 Dan: Tag-Announce; has anyone been sending anything to this? 17:16:13 Vincent: this is something we should do. We should post to this mailing list for any significant announcments etc. 17:16:46 "TAG of minutes, meeting summaries, findings, new issues, resolved issues, and drafts of architecture documents" 17:17:16 Dan noted that we are missing minutes and http-range 14 to this list. 17:18:04 Topic: Invitations 17:18:20 more information on new subjects; Grid and web apps. 17:18:32 Noah proposed name from IBM 17:18:37 Ed proposed name from HP 17:19:15 Vincent; We have two canidates, both seem interesting. Should we invite them both? 17:19:26 and when should we do this? 17:19:52 timbl has joined #tagmem 17:19:56 Ed thinks both would be good 17:20:06 Dan thinks web apps charter may be more urgent 17:20:34 "Proposal: we will have calls through 19th of July, then take a break with next call being 23rd of August." 17:20:38 -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/06/14-16-minutes.html#item07 17:21:58 Noah: we would give some guidence around what we're looking for 17:22:38 Noah: what is grid, there appears to be some confusion (as an example) 17:22:58 Vincent: I'm not sure we're asking them anything formal. 17:23:31 Noah: Propose grid on the 19th, if possible 17:23:42 Noah: lets us do web-apps sooner 17:24:36 Vincent will contact both parties and try and make arrangements 17:25:11 Action: Vincent to organize the experts on the grid, if possible both on the 19th of July 17:25:48 Vincent: We'll do web applications next week 17:26:11 Dan: the charter is available is our goal to review the charter? Should we be part of the membership review or..? 17:28:13 Timbl: it would be good to have the TAG internalize the architecture for web applications and discuss them. 17:29:59 Vincent: the discussion was not just about the charter, but also about longer term architectural implications 17:30:57 q+ to mention precedent of binary charter 17:31:42 > I see it was announced 23 May to the AC 17:31:42 > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2005AprJun/ 17:31:42 > 0041.html 17:31:42 > --> http://www.w3.org/2004/07/webapps/webapps 17:36:22 q- 17:36:50 (I don't want to charter a W3C WG to do much design in the webapps space. I think the best bang-for-the-buck is QA. testing and refinement of existing designs) 17:37:53 -Roy 17:39:09 Vincent: while hearing the charter discussion, I'm less and less convinced its not a good time to discuss the charter iteself. 17:39:24 +Roy 17:39:45 timble: We're in the phase of infromally discussing thats all. 17:40:40 q+ to say that having open app models for the web is important 17:40:55 ack noah 17:40:55 noah, you wanted to say that having open app models for the web is important 17:41:37 Noah: I see some items in the charter which give me some pause. On the other hand, expectations for what applications do are evolving and I think its critically important that we find that there were open architectures deployed. 17:42:24 Noah: I think its important if this charter is close enough to the mark to make that happen. 17:42:48 Vincent: The plan was not to have an in-depth discussion today, just to get organized to have the discussion in the future. 17:43:05 Questions which seem open: Should the interface be language specific to be more powerful and usable? If this is going to be ECMAscript why not say so? If not then say that. Or aim to have shared library between JS and Java? 17:43:53 Vincent: We'll try and have the discusion next week. 17:44:05 Noah also noted at least one more detailed concern: the draft charter seems to mandate a solution to client side storage. That seems like a deeply complex area. I have no problems with a group taking a look at it, but I'm concerned that we're committing to a deliverable before we know what if anything meets a practical need. 17:44:20 Action: Vincent to invite Dan for the 5th of July to discuss web services 17:44:29 s/invite Dan/invite Dean/ 17:44:50 s/web services/web applications/ 17:44:51 Dean Jackson 17:45:07 Roy mentioned that security is important and is missing from the charter. 17:45:11 Topic: Names, namespaces and languages 17:45:16 +1 from Noah to Roy's concern on security. 17:45:30 Henry to present work. 17:46:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Jun/att-0059/names.html 17:47:02 Henry: There are two candiate best practice notes at the bottom 17:47:41 1) As a language evolves, use new expanded names for new things, don't recycle old ones 17:48:08 2) Don't use the same expanded name for two different things of the same sort in different languages under your control 17:48:33 q+ to note "The continued widespread use of languages such as Docbook which don't use namespaces shouldn't be ignored." vs " A specification that establishes an XML vocabulary SHOULD place all element names and global attribute names in a namespace." 17:48:51 (hmm... maybe better to finish this discussion thread 1st...) 17:48:55 q- 17:49:20 q+ to suggest that maybe we need a broader definition of namespace 17:49:37 q+ to respond to the new/old thing... 17:49:47 concern around versioning and calling 'new things' new as opposed to a new version of the same thing. 17:50:02 ack danc 17:50:02 DanC, you wanted to respond to the new/old thing... 17:50:19 Zakim, who is here? 17:50:19 On the phone I see Ed, Ht, Vincent, noah, DanC, DOrchard, TimBL, Roy 17:50:20 On IRC I see timbl, RRSAgent, Roy, Vincent, Ed, Zakim, ht, DanC, noah 17:50:30 q? 17:50:54 ack noah 17:50:54 noah, you wanted to suggest that maybe we need a broader definition of namespace 17:51:44 Noah: when you access a status code 200, that had better be an information resource. 17:52:13 Noah: Namespaces are borderline, we havent really said what they are. Norm said we should come down on the side of an information resource. 17:52:28 q+ to suggest that a namespace is a set of URIs which share a comon prefix, and a namespace document is the document which is identified by that URI 17:52:33 "A namespace is a set of terms and associated information, all qualified by the same URI. In the case of XML Instance documents, namespaces consist of the constructs specified in "Namespaces for XML", along with supporting information such as schemas, stylesheets, etc. In the case of XML Schema, a so-called "Target Namespace" consists of named type definitions, element declarations, attribute declarations, and so on." 17:52:46 Noah: proposed text. 17:52:51 (I don't see the issue... in what way might a namespace *not* be an information resource?) 17:52:54 q+ to disagree strongly 17:54:19 q? 17:54:32 ack timbl 17:54:32 timbl, you wanted to suggest that a namespace is a set of URIs which share a comon prefix, and a namespace document is the document which is identified by that URI 17:54:40 (and why does "namespace" need a definition any more constrained than "information resource?") 17:55:18 timbl: we're getting a little tangled in this. You can talk about an html name space just being a set of names 17:55:35 timble: A namespace document is a document if you want a list of that. 17:58:04 Information about ways of using the namespace 17:58:44 == Information about using qualified names of the form < [the namespace URI], some local name> 17:58:45 ack ht 17:58:45 ht, you wanted to disagree strongly 17:59:53 Henry: The specific question that the document i wrote came back with a specific negative. The namespace URI just allows you to have a list of expanded names. 18:00:04 Noah and Tim went back and forth: I think the net is that Tim is suggesting that the namespace URI actually identifies the namespace document or information resource. Noah is happy with that. Noah would have been concerned if the URI identified both the list of names as a resource and the namespace document as a resource. 18:00:09 Henry: We need not to talk so much about namespace documents but aound language documents 18:01:45 ack DO 18:01:45 yes 18:02:12 yes to XHTML anyway -- RDF, like XML itself, is tricky because it's so meta 18:02:13 Dave: We need to think about the relationship of fragment identifiers and namespace documents 18:02:25 q+ TimBL 18:02:40 Noah is mainly pushing that we have a clean answer to the question: what is the information resource identified by the namespace URI, and why can we justify status code 200 returning RDDL with things like stylesheet references. Tim's proposal seemed to point a good direction for that. 18:02:50 q+ to say that if Henry wanst to break apart the allocation of names in anames apec and teh allocation of them to things they denote in different circumstances, then that violates the principle that a URI identifies one thing hlobally. 18:03:11 ack TimBL 18:03:14 TimBL, you wanted to say that if Henry wanst to break apart the allocation of names in anames apec and teh allocation of them to things they denote in different circumstances, then 18:03:18 ... that violates the principle that a URI identifies one thing hlobally. 18:03:23 q+ to say that if Henry wanst to break apart the allocation of names in anames apec and teh allocation of them to things they denote in different circumstances, then that violates the principle that a URI identifies one thing hlobally. 18:04:03 DO: http;//whatever/sdhfghjasdfgjgf#interfaceFfoo 18:04:38 What happens if there is RDDL document there, whioch doesn't tell me what interfaceFoo is? 18:04:51 "nothing in the doc says what interfaceFfoo is"? well, by reference, it seems to. 18:05:06 ack timbl 18:05:06 timbl, you wanted to say that if Henry wanst to break apart the allocation of names in anames apec and teh allocation of them to things they denote in different circumstances, then 18:05:09 ... that violates the principle that a URI identifies one thing hlobally. 18:06:38 Seems that David is concerned that one won't know how to get from eth RDDL document to the other document which one actually needs. 18:08:18 "WSDL has to give a property for use in RDDL befor they're done". well, in a way, I suppose. But XML Schema did the RDDL stuff after-the-fact 18:10:50 (the possibility was always there; namespace documents don't introduce it) 18:11:13 (the possibility being: that meaning of a doc might include another by ref) 18:11:43 Dave. From: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#frag-coneg "representation providers must not use content negotiation to serve representation formats that have inconsistent fragment identifier semantics. " Doesn't that cover your concern about WSDL and RDDL? 18:12:02 Henry: I meant that simply that its possible to mint a namespace and that there is an infenant set of names in that name space. 18:12:23 Henry: one of the reasons we like http: URI's is because we know who's job it is to answer that 18:12:56 ...and then Noah notices that Dave isn't on IRC 18:13:34 ack DanC 18:13:34 DanC, you wanted to note that by the "minimalist" reading, "z" is in every namespace, e.g. and by another notion (that perhaps merits a new name) "z" 18:13:38 ... has a different status than "p" 18:13:51 Dan: for purpose of discussion, I need another name for namespace 18:14:09 Indeed, that's what I was just saying to Timbl 18:14:33 HTML tells us that P is the name of something in that language 18:14:54 Yeah, I was going to use 'application'. . . 18:15:19 q? 18:15:38 q+ to suggest that Tim's distinction between namespace doc and namespace may point to a solution to Henry's concern 18:16:22 HT: I agree that you think the web is simple enough that the document element is good enough to tell you what you want. 18:16:39 GRDDL, for example, doesn't define a document element. 18:17:15 XSLT literals results do *exactly* what timbl says shouldn't happen. 18:17:28 timbl: if its in a given name space and you use any other name, then I feel the self describing nature breaks down if in anyplace in the doc itself it changes what type of document it is. 18:18:23 XSLT literals do exactly what I say should happen iff you adot the XML fucntions architecture. 18:18:28 ack DO 18:19:00 (In other words, XHTML says functions are allowed, and XSTLT namespace defines what happens when yo umeet some of it in a foreign language) 18:20:16 the XSLT spec says that you can start an XSLT transformation with 18:20:47 the XSLT spec says you can start a transformation with _any_ XML element 18:21:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#literal-result-element 18:22:47 (yes, DO's issue is one that has come up a number of times; is it in the current draft of whatever we've got on namespaceDocument-8? if not, anybody want to take the ball?) 18:22:50 ack noah 18:22:50 noah, you wanted to suggest that Tim's distinction between namespace doc and namespace may point to a solution to Henry's concern 18:22:58 barenames are fine if there's only one sort of thing in your language/application/whatever 18:24:55 And that's the case for RDF 18:25:06 It's not OK for XML or Schema or WSDL 18:26:01 noah, welcome to the xml-names thread from 1999, all about whether namespace names are actually pointers at all 18:26:51 This is a use/mention confusion, but I agree it needs to be clarified carefully 18:27:30 Henry: I'll update my document, if it fits into a finding thats great. 18:27:47 yup. this is the key to extensibility too. 18:27:50 Dave: This has been very useful. 18:27:58 Vincent: lets move on 18:28:08 TOPIC: shemeProtocols-49 18:28:19 Noah sent a message right before the call. 18:28:36 When I write , I'm _not_ using http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema in anything _like_ the same way I'm using it when I write ... 18:29:01 ah... not xml-names thread, but xml-uri http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-uri/ 18:29:26 DanC, thanks for good memory and good pointers! 18:29:46 Noah, I'm working on refining the findings. Please provide feedback asap as i'm occupied for the next two weeks 18:30:02 TOPIC: namespaceDocument-8 18:30:10 Vincent: We'll return to this when Norm returns 18:30:23 Topic: Review action items; 18:30:46 Vincent: everyone to review from agenda. 18:30:47 -DOrchard 18:30:51 Close meeting 18:30:52 -Vincent 18:30:54 -Roy 18:30:55 -TimBL 18:30:56 -noah 18:30:56 -Ed 18:30:58 -DanC 18:31:14 Zakim, list participants 18:31:14 As of this point the attendees have been Ht, +1.949.760.aaaa, Ed, Vincent, noah, DanC, Roy, DOrchard, TimBL 18:31:15 When Henry wrote above: "When I write I'm not" that was exactly the point I was making on the call. I'm trying to rationalize the use of the same URI for both. 18:31:16 -Ht 18:31:19 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended 18:31:21 Attendees were Ht, +1.949.760.aaaa, Ed, Vincent, noah, DanC, Roy, DOrchard, TimBL 18:31:28 Tim sez the URI identifies a description document for the NS. 18:31:36 RRSAgent, gnerate minutes 18:31:36 I'm logging. I don't understand 'gnerate minutes', Ed. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:31:49 RRSAgent, generate minutes 18:31:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-minutes.html Ed 18:32:34 Sure, that's what the URI 'identifies', in the abstract. And that identification is foregrounded in the href=... usage. 18:32:35 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 18:33:05 Zakim, bye 18:33:05 Zakim has left #tagmem 18:33:05 But it's _not_ what's foregrounded, or even in play at all, when you write with an appropriate namespace binding in play 18:33:23 RRSAgent, bye 18:33:23 I see 3 open action items: 18:33:23 ACTION: Vincent to write something based on what was presented at the AC meeting earlier this month and will circulate to the mailing list. After comments he will publish this. [1] 18:33:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-irc#T17-13-31 18:33:23 ACTION: Vincent to organize the experts on the grid, if possible both on the 19th of July [2] 18:33:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-irc#T17-25-11 18:33:23 ACTION: Vincent to invite Dan for the 5th of July to discuss web services [3] 18:33:23 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-irc#T17-44-20