14:30:25 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:30:25 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-irc 14:30:31 Zakim, take up item 1 14:30:31 agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0422.html" taken up [from DanC] 14:30:35 regrets: HowardK 14:30:50 +PatH 14:30:58 DanC, no it doesnt, but I can add something 14:30:59 +Kendall_Clark 14:31:11 -Yoshio 14:31:24 +Yoshio 14:32:17 +[IPcaller] 14:32:27 Zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveH 14:32:27 +SteveH; got it 14:32:28 -Yoshio 14:32:35 zakim, mute me 14:32:35 SteveH should now be muted 14:33:07 +Yoshio 14:33:12 + +1.323.444.aaaa 14:33:33 +EricP 14:33:42 agenda + IRI normalization 14:33:52 +??P39 14:33:54 agenda + # Implementation Report: SPARQL/P 14:34:03 KevinW has joined #DAWG 14:34:11 Zakim, ??P39 is Souri 14:34:11 +Souri; got it 14:34:14 -Yoshio 14:34:14 agenda + Refining Optionals 14:34:24 agenda + solution modifiers & construct/describe 14:34:31 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:34:31 On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, DaveB, PatH, Kendall_Clark, SteveH (muted), +1.323.444.aaaa, EricP, Souri 14:34:42 +Kevin 14:34:46 +Yoshio 14:34:55 Zakim, aaa is JosD 14:34:55 sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa' 14:35:36 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kendall_Clark 14:35:39 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricP 14:35:45 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kendall_Clark 14:35:48 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Souri 14:36:17 -Yoshio 14:36:18 scribe: KendallC + EricP 14:36:38 DanC has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access 28 Jun. scribe: KendallC + EricP 14:36:48 scribing helps me follow the conversation anyway :> 14:36:58 yeah, i know what you mean 14:36:58 Zakim, agenda? 14:36:58 I see 12 items remaining on the agenda: 14:36:59 1. Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0422.html [from DanC] 14:37:02 2. Next ftf? [from DanC] 14:37:04 3. Comments [from DanC] 14:37:05 4. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC] 14:37:06 5. SPARQL protocol publication [from DanC] 14:37:08 6. SPARQL results format publication [from DanC] 14:37:09 7. Testing [from DanC] 14:37:10 8. syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq [from DanC] 14:37:11 9. IRI normalization [from DanC] 14:37:13 10. # Implementation Report: SPARQL/P [from DanC] 14:37:14 11. Refining Optionals [from DanC] 14:37:15 12. solution modifiers & construct/describe [from DanC] 14:37:42 zakim, who's on phone? 14:37:42 I don't understand your question, kendall. 14:37:44 zakim, who's on phone 14:37:44 I don't understand 'who's on phone', kendall 14:37:47 minutes 7 Jun http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0411.html 14:38:09 zakim, who's on phone? 14:38:09 I don't understand your question, kendall. 14:38:15 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:38:15 On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, DaveB, PatH, Kendall_Clark, SteveH (muted), +1.323.444.aaaa, EricP, Souri, Kevin 14:38:36 Attending: Andy, Dan, Dave, Pat, Kendall, Steve, Souri, Eric, Kevin 14:38:38 minutes 14 Jun http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0412.html 14:38:41 afs_ has joined #dawg 14:38:44 Regrets (partial): HowardK 14:39:00 APPROVED minutes from 14 June meeting 14:39:22 EricP scribe for 5 July meeting 14:39:34 meeting at regular time 14:40:19 +Jeen_Broekstra 14:40:28 Attending: ...+ Jeen 14:40:45 Zakim, close this agendum 14:40:45 agendum 1 closed 14:40:46 I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:40:47 2. Next ftf? [from DanC] 14:41:02 Offer from HP for sometime in August 14:41:04 +Yoshio 14:41:34 -SteveH 14:41:40 During most (but not all) of the weeks of August 14:41:43 in BRS 14:41:58 I like brs in august :) 14:42:09 +??P22 14:42:27 in which week of August? 14:42:27 I'll be in Houston for some 7 to 10 day stretch during August, but I'll try to avoid overlap with f2f. 14:42:29 demo has joined #dawg 14:42:33 Zakim, ??P22 is SteveH 14:42:33 +SteveH; got it 14:42:34 ericP +1 to BRS in august in the range of 8-Aug - 18-Aug 14:42:36 swh_ has joined #dawg 14:42:36 Attendeeds: +SteveH 14:43:39 Attenndees: +Yoshio 14:44:10 note HP offer again http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0383.html 14:44:17 Chair suffers ennui, capitulates for now. :> 14:44:44 Zakim, next agendum 14:44:44 agendum 2. "Next ftf?" taken up [from DanC] 14:44:49 Zakim, close item 2 14:44:49 agendum 2 closed 14:44:50 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:44:51 zakim, mute me 14:44:51 Zakim, next agendum 14:44:51 3. Comments [from DanC] 14:44:52 SteveH should now be muted 14:44:53 agendum 3. "Comments" taken up [from DanC] 14:45:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/ 14:45:12 zakim, mute me 14:45:12 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 14:46:25 zakim, unmute me 14:46:25 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 14:46:34 DanC has a long outstanding comment re: INSERT... 14:50:58 discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jun/0039.html 14:54:26 discussion of blank node comments http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jun/0039.html 14:55:42 Zakim, next agendum 14:55:42 agendum 4. "SPARQL QL publication" taken up [from DanC] 14:55:57 Zakim, take up item 8 14:55:57 agendum 8. "syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq" taken up [from DanC] 14:56:17 q+ to ask about planned objections 14:56:35 Is there any new evidence to reopen the dots-in-qnames decision? 14:57:29 Other than that people keep being unhappy about it? 14:57:57 EricP completely ambivalent 14:58:19 PatH wonders whether redefining qname syntax is any of our business 14:59:22 PatH suggests intra-spec consistency more important than minor (?) bits of convenience 14:59:31 XML does have the '.' allowed 14:59:35 whereas we currently don't 14:59:42 DaveB, I though we did 14:59:56 +1 for XML qname rules from me 15:00:03 err.., you are right we do now 15:00:09 yes, +1 for XML rules 15:00:17 Yoshio: both! :> 15:00:31 :-) 15:00:37 but I meant between different specs, not within one spec. :> 15:00:51 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#syntax-qname-08-rq 15:00:51 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#syntax-qname-14-rq 15:01:01 Tests affected by the proposal 15:01:08 08: WHERE { :a. x.: : . } 15:01:08 WHERE { :a. x.: : . } 15:03:34 (scribe dropping details...) 15:03:35 differences from XML: _foo:bar not allowed 15:03:41 differences from XML: foo: allowed 15:03:45 andy says _:a is not allowed - diff from xml 15:03:57 and currently _foo:bar also not allowed 15:04:26 JosD notes considerable deployment of { a b c. } 15:04:38 turtle's never allowed a b c. 15:04:47 (hmm, epistemic sins may seem to license future sins! :>) 15:05:01 ericP, generated queries would need special rules for qnames with .s 15:05:26 they'll need special rules anyway to escape EricP: note qnames are just short-hand; in the general case, you can write out the full URI 15:05:56 Is < legal in an IRI at all? 15:06:07 you can use \u002E always anwyay 15:06:46 Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:06:46 On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, DaveB, Yoshio, PatH, Kendall_Clark, +1.323.444.aaaa, EricP, Souri, Kevin, Jeen_Broekstra, SteveH (muted) 15:07:24 zakim, unmute me 15:07:24 SteveH should no longer be muted 15:08:41 heh 15:08:53 a:b a:c 15:09:06 a:b a:c c:foo. 15:09:25 a:b a:c c:foo. . 15:09:31 eek 15:09:42 { a:b a:c c:foo. . a:d a:e a:f } 15:10:50 DaveB, i read c:foo.... as <$ns{c}:foo....> 15:11:00 (a) not dots in qnames (b) dots in qnames except at the end (c) dots in qnames even at the end 15:11:25 a -4 15:11:40 a -5 15:11:52 b -1 15:12:01 c -1 15:12:07 c -2 15:13:15 and qname rules are already maximally arbitrary, so one more bit isn't really one more! :> 15:14:44 PROPOSED: to allow dots in qnames except at the end. 15:15:16 Dave, Pat abstain 15:15:19 RESOLVED 15:15:26 i'm happy for a decision 15:15:36 18 15:15:36 ACTION JosD to fix up the relevant tests 15:15:43 ACTION: JosD to fix up the relevant tests 15:16:06 Zakim, close this agendum 15:16:06 agendum 8 closed 15:16:06 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:16:06 4. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC] 15:16:34 Zakim, take up item 9 15:16:34 agendum 9. "IRI normalization" taken up [from DanC] 15:17:18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0430.html 15:17:40 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/normalization-01.rq 15:20:24 ACTION EricP add a note that users should be aware of non-canonicalization of IRIs 15:20:34 ACTION SteveH to review the relevant test case re: IRI normalization 15:20:45 Zakim, close this agendum 15:20:45 agendum 9 closed 15:20:46 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:20:47 4. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC] 15:21:03 Zakim, take up agendum 11 15:21:03 agendum 11. "Refining Optionals" taken up [from DanC] 15:22:34 ACTION PatH to review new optionals defintions, if any 15:22:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0415.html 15:24:11 Zakim, close item 11 15:24:11 agendum 11 closed 15:24:12 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:24:14 4. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC] 15:24:27 Zakim, take up item solution 15:24:27 agendum 12. "solution modifiers & construct/describe" taken up [from DanC] 15:24:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0420.html 15:25:54 zakim, mute me 15:25:54 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 15:26:19 zakim, unmute me 15:26:19 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 15:29:05 q+ 15:30:15 That would help, I think, make the design more clear. 15:30:37 q- 15:30:57 ACTION AndyS to rework CONSTRUCT def'n 15:31:11 Zakim, close this agendum 15:31:11 agendum 12 closed 15:31:12 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:31:13 4. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC] 15:31:19 ACTION AndyS to add new construct examples, with solution modifier(s), to spec 15:31:21 agenda? 15:31:37 Zakim, take up item ql 15:31:37 'ql' does not match any agenda item, DanC 15:31:40 Zakim, take up item QL 15:31:40 'QL' matches agenda items 4 and 5, DanC 15:31:46 Zakim, take up item 4 15:31:46 agendum 4. "SPARQL QL publication" taken up [from DanC] 15:32:05 zakim, mut eme 15:32:05 I don't understand 'mut eme', kendall 15:32:08 zakim, mute me 15:32:08 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 15:32:40 "PROPOSED: to publish rq23 (1.395) , addressing FILTER and 3 editorial 15:32:40 changes, with KendallC & JosD reviewing these changes post 1.395, as 15:32:40 a Last Call Working Draft " 15:32:47 DanC trying to figure out what the LC vote meant 15:33:05 ...how much editing is up to the editors 15:33:12 zakim, unmute me 15:33:12 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 15:33:41 zakim, mute me 15:33:41 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 15:34:40 zakim, unmute me 15:34:40 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 15:35:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0435.html 15:35:29 count http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0435.html 15:35:30 souri: making sure folks are conciously not including COUNT(*) 15:35:31 i could see the utility of COUNT, but i think we have to punt till 2.0 at this relatively late date 15:37:42 Need something in the results format to serialize it, as well 15:37:45 Better design for ASK. Low cost for COUNT(*) 15:37:51 we'd be adding a new result format 15:37:56 that means new services, new xml formats 15:38:19 heh, dave you owe me a coke. :> 15:38:25 AndyS, COUNT can be considerably more expensive than ASK 15:38:54 Steve - ASK = SELECT EXIST 15:39:01 in Souri's message 15:39:06 AndyS, yes 15:39:08 is EXIST a SQL keyword? 15:39:48 Souri: we could have the results of COUNT as a new return type ala ASK 15:39:49 Souri suggests a whole range of cardinality queries motivate this 15:40:13 I share the need for COUNT, remember the need I mentioned of giving the user the chance to polish the query... 15:40:16 AndyS: next step, GROUP BY, is expensive 15:40:35 q+ to propose not going here until we tackle aggregates in general 15:40:38 simple v. complex (arbitrary) aggregates, basically 15:40:52 agenda + COUNT requirement? 15:40:53 Souri suggests ASK is a kind of simple aggregate already 15:40:55 Zakim, take up item 13 15:40:55 agendum 13. "COUNT requirement?" taken up [from DanC] 15:41:10 Souri: COUNT covers EXISTS (ASK) but is slightly more expensive 15:41:27 danc, should i shout out? 15:41:31 no 15:41:34 roger 15:42:30 AndyS: are we ruling out or making later grouping functionality inconvenient 15:42:45 Yeah, +1 to pat's question 15:43:02 PatH: how? 15:43:21 AndyS: probably an unfortunate syntax choice 15:43:27 AndyS largely worried about syntax that might not be forward compatible 15:44:03 COUNT * only for now; then add COUNT var ... GROUP BY ... 15:44:21 DanC: And I believe that's in our charter, yes? 15:45:47 s/DanC:/DanC,/ 15:46:07 Ah, sorry. Yes, that wasn't for the reocrd, but a question. My bad. 15:46:26 np 15:46:51 ack ericP 15:46:51 ericP, you wanted to propose not going here until we tackle aggregates in general 15:47:35 q- 15:47:42 EricP wants to wait till we do aggregates generally. 15:48:04 (I agreed with that till Souri argued that ASK is already a simple aggregate which COUNT * would also be...) 15:48:19 Souri would be content w/ a deferral at this point 15:48:35 PROPOSED: to add a count/aggregate issue and postpone it, due to schedule considerations 15:48:55 RESOLVED 15:48:57 RESOLVED. 15:49:06 Abstains none 15:49:09 Zakim, close this agendum 15:49:09 agendum 13 closed 15:49:10 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:49:11 4. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC] 15:49:11 :-) 15:53:39 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) ... 15:53:42 zakim, mute me 15:53:42 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 15:54:00 zakim, unmute me 15:54:00 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 15:54:03 q+ to ask about regex language 15:54:04 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... 15:54:41 & pick a namespace name for xmlresults? 15:55:02 I pick http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults 15:55:45 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang @@ (5) defns extraction @@ (6) qname-dots 15:57:00 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang @@ (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots 15:57:30 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang. ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots 15:58:14 strike "@@Ensure markup around examples enables XSLT extraction." 15:58:58 Do the editor's intend the doc to LC w/ the red sections about consensus issues still in the doc? 15:59:04 drop "@@Labeling when document is TOC-stable 15:59:04 " 15:59:10 done @@Matching is on a graph from a dataset. 15:59:40 http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults 16:00:19 PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults for results namespace name 16:00:48 RESOLVED. 16:00:48 RESOLVED, no abstentions or objections 16:01:18 ACTION DanC to put a doc at the new results format namespace 16:01:24 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang. ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots (7) results ns andys 16:01:48 "@@Prefix - sec 1.1 - See if there are any - consider rewriting if a just a few." 16:02:15 strike. 16:02:45 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang. ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots @@ (7) results ns andys 16:03:29 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang. ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP (7) results ns andys 16:04:13 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang. ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP (7) results ns andys (8) SOTD DanC, EricP 16:04:24 vs. 1.406 16:04:55 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang. ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP (7) results ns andys (8) SOTD DanC, EricP (9) production 20 grammar edit by andy?@@ 16:05:52 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang. ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP (7) results ns andys (8) SOTD DanC, EricP (9) production 20 grammar edit by andy 16:06:51 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang, new section??@@ ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP (7) results ns andys (8) SOTD DanC, EricP (9) production 20 grammar edit by andy 16:07:25 (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) construct/limit andy/kc ... (4) clarify which regex lang, new section ericp, andys (5) defns extraction. ericp (6) qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP (7) results ns andys (8) SOTD DanC, EricP (9) production 20 grammar edit by andy 16:08:25 PROPOSED: to publish SPARQL ql as last call, v1.406 + 9 changes, contingnent on review as above 16:09:07 RESOLVED, no as&os 16:10:33 Zakim, close this agendum 16:10:33 I do not know what agendum had been taken up, DanC 16:10:49 Zakim, close item SPARQL QL 16:10:49 I don't understand 'close item SPARQL QL', DanC 16:10:49 Zakim, close item 4 16:10:49 agendum 4 closed 16:10:49 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:10:55 5. SPARQL protocol publication [from DanC] 16:10:55 Zakim, close item 5 16:10:55 agendum 5 closed 16:10:55 agenda? 16:10:55 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:10:56 6. SPARQL results format publication [from DanC] 16:10:59 we're out of meeting time 16:12:32 note 4 Jul holiday 16:12:38 ... in the US 16:12:48 ADJOURN. 16:12:50 -DaveB 16:13:01 - +1.323.444.aaaa 16:13:06 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 16:13:07 -Kevin 16:13:09 -Yoshio 16:13:10 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:13:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes.html DanC 16:13:36 -PatH 16:13:48 -SteveH 16:13:53 -Kendall_Clark 16:14:03 -Jeen_Broekstra 16:16:35 -Souri 16:19:53 -DanC 16:19:54 -EricP 16:20:09 -AndyS 16:20:10 SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended 16:20:11 Attendees were DanC, AndyS, DaveB, Yoshio, PatH, Kendall_Clark, SteveH, +1.323.444.aaaa, EricP, Souri, Kevin, Jeen_Broekstra 16:20:36 rrsagent, please leave us 16:20:36 I see 1 open action item: 16:20:36 ACTION: JosD to fix up the relevant tests [1] 16:20:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-irc#T15-15-43