17:04:34 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:04:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-tagmem-irc 17:04:42 title: TAG 21 June 2005 telcon 17:04:46 date: 21 June 2005 17:04:48 scribe: NW 17:04:51 scribenick: Norm 17:04:52 +Dave_Orchard 17:05:05 zakim, who's here? 17:05:05 On the phone I see Ed_Rice?, Norm, Ht, Vincent, Dave_Orchard 17:05:06 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Vincent, Ed, dorchard, Zakim, Norm, noah, ht, DanC 17:05:15 regrets: Dan, Tim, Noah 17:05:24 absent: Roy 17:06:03 Telcon: 28 June? 17:06:05 Regrets: NW 17:06:11 Next telcon: 28 June 2005 17:06:34 Scribe will be Ed 17:07:52 topic: Approving minutes of the f2f 17:07:59 HT asks for time to review them 17:08:07 NW concurs 17:08:26 We'll approve the f2f minutes next week 17:09:55 topic: Technical discussion: TAG future directions 17:10:08 DC published summary at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2005Jun/att-0010/tag-directions.html 17:11:25 subtopic: Grid Services 17:11:34 HST would be happy to discuss his message to XML Schema about naming things if we have time 17:11:51 VQ: What seems interesting architecturally is the interaction of grid services with both web services and the semantic web 17:12:32 ht: My feeling is that there is an impact, but I don't know what it is 17:13:08 ht: I'd be happy to get educated in this area "on TAG time" as it were, if we could identify someone who has some reasonable understanding of the architecture of the grid and might be prepared to suggest some things we ought to look at 17:13:11 VQ: agreement 17:13:50 NW: Sun has some grid services work going; I can look for someone to come chat with us 17:14:20 ht: I have connections with ??? that I'll be giving a talk to about naming in ten days time. I'll look for interest there. 17:14:40 UK National e-Science Centre 17:14:42 dorchard: I can do a limited job, or one of our distribued web management folks, there are a couple in our standards teams, that would be glad to talk about some of the work BEA has been lookin gat in this area 17:14:54 VQ: any other proposals? 17:15:32 VQ asks DO to give a brief intro 17:16:44 dorchard: What we've been looking at is primarly an issue of management of resources. In that regard, there are questions of how do you manage resources, detect change in state, change state, subscribe to resource state changes, how does notification occur. All in this area of managability of resources. 17:18:08 HST understood the GRID to be something quite different from what DaveO is talking about 17:18:36 dorchard: There's roughly two competing camps: at OASIS there are three TCs: WS-Notification: Pub/Sub, Brokered notification, and event descriptions; WS Resource Framework which has introduced a number of SOAP/WSDL based specifications to describe operations that a resource will support (e.g., query by qname, create, delete, etc.); 17:18:56 VQ: This sounds very similar to web services. 17:19:19 VQ: Are you aware of the vision of the grid that is more about distributed computing, where resources are more like computing resources, CPU power, or data storage 17:20:00 Global Grid Forum 17:20:06 dorchard: The term "grid" has many different meanings. I'm describing, briefly, one of those meanings. The output of the Open Grid Alliance (Forum?) ended up going this way. 17:20:22 s/Open Grid Alliance/Global Grid Forum/ 17:20:37 DO: What I think we're going to have here are a few different views of what the grid and grid services mean 17:20:39 I thought they had their own as-it-were rec-track. . . 17:20:59 dorchard has joined #tagmem 17:21:05 http://www.ggf.org/ 17:21:22 VQ: suggests going around the table to see if we're all on the same page 17:21:50 ht: From the particular corner of the intellectual space that I sit in, it's much more the scientific side that VQ mentioned. 17:22:38 ht: The focus seems to be sharing extremely high concentrations of computing power 17:23:07 ht: Problems like quantum chromodynamics and the calculations demanded by the superconducting supercollider 17:23:34 ht: This is simply more computing power than they can possibly have at one or two sites. It's in there general interest to make sure that everyone can get access to the available computing resources. 17:24:07 ht: there is a bunch of open source software out there for finding and integrating into the authentication model of the resources to "run jobs" 17:24:22 ht: they're also very interested in tracking the history of datasets. 17:24:23 q+ 17:24:43 q? 17:24:55 ack dorchard 17:25:21 dorchard: I think the area that people are seing from the WS side is the distinction of managing WS resources and using WS to manage resources 17:26:03 dorchard: Our customer base is concerned about managing computing resources on the order of thousands of resources 17:26:54 dorchard: Big customers need to be able to manage things like drive failure, manage devices, manage computers, etc. They want to have a big set of "things" avialable that they can take out when needed and to which they can add new devices. 17:27:11 dorchard: there's obvoius potential relationships between that view and the web view 17:27:28 The GGF does indeed have a pub process, modelled on ours it looks like: http://www.ggf.org/ggf_docs_process.htm 17:27:33 dorchard: points to ??? one of the authors of webdav. Formerly at BPEL. This is one possible starting place. 17:27:42 dorchard: can you fill in "???" for me, please 17:28:19 VQ asks NW about the grid 17:28:37 s/???/Yaron Goland/g 17:28:38 q+ to say that I'm more concerned to hear from further afield, i.e. the 'Big Physics' GRID as opposed to the WS-Grid 17:28:40 http://www.goland.org 17:28:58 NW: I really don't know more than the name. I think I've heard both sorts of discussions. 17:29:26 ER: We have a center inside HP that's working on Grid computing. I'd be happy to invite them if it isn't redundant. 17:30:06 VQ: We should try to find the right person to be invited first to give us an introduction to the grid 17:30:15 VQ asks HT about his connections 17:30:23 ht: I'll make some inquiries 17:30:46 ER: Suggests we each send a paragraph to the TAG outlining what our contacts are working on. As a way of figuring out who to ask. 17:31:42 IBM is doing a lot of work on grid. Are you looking for experts who can orient us? If so, I can almost surely find someone good. 17:31:45 VQ: Sounds good, please send them. 17:32:42 NW: Noah seems to be indicating an ability to get someone as well. 17:32:54 OK, I'll check in IBM. Are we looking for someone to dial into a TAG call? What's needed and what's the likely format? 17:33:37 We're just looking for a single para of intro so we can pick the right folks to invite 17:33:57 subtopic: P2P 17:34:14 NW points VQ to Noah's remark earlier 17:35:00 noah: Note that I think we covered P2P and streaming under schemeProtocols last week. The ball is in my court to propose next steps, I think. 17:36:32 VQ: I'm not sure the problems are all related directly to those areas. Noah has an action that's relevant, but I'm not sure that both issues are streaming and multimedia and P2P are all just scheme and protocol related 17:36:39 VQ: What other directions should we explore? 17:37:21 Scribe lost the beginning of that thread... 17:37:59 VQ: P2P and streaming could be related. 17:38:06 ER: I don't think P2P and streaming are really related 17:38:30 VQ: As far as protocols are concerned, they're using different protocols than the ones typically used on the web. Also, the way they carry information seems a bit different. 17:38:38 VQ: The notion of media type isn't handled the same way. 17:38:53 NW: So they aren't related to each other so much as they are both different from the typical web 17:39:12 VQ: Is the only issue related to web architecture the issue of schemes and protocols 17:40:13 NW: It seems to me that folks use P2P to get long streaming resources 17:41:04 dorchard: The notion of P2P and security and safety is interesting. How do you deal with the fact that people can inject errors into the system. Azareus now has a plugin called safe peer that does IP blacklists based on comparisons with master copies 17:41:59 dorchard: People are now trying to verify the representations that they actually obtain. This is an effort to heal the network's view of what the resource is. This treats the information space as if it was sort of local. 17:42:02 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:42:49 VQ: Asks Noah if he thinks there are other issues related to P2P and streaming 17:43:13 NM: I don't know and I certainly don't have any problem with discussing other issues. I just thought they were on the whiteboard at the f2f because of the stream/protocol stuff. 17:43:45 NM: I think the balls in my court to summarize the feedback that I got, both at the f2f and in email 17:44:02 dorchard: The thing I mentioned was the issue around retaining the state of the resource as it's distributed 17:44:45 dorchard: This is the security and distributed caching aspects I just talked about 17:46:11 q+ to support the separation of the peer-to-peer question from schemesProtocols-?? 17:46:15 NM: I think those aspects are related to the scheme/protocol discussion. To what extend do the scheme or protocol play a role in preserving that state? For a given scheme, it may be important. The social conventions around the http: scheme provide one view of the system that the P2P schemes don't. Or at least do so differently. I do plan to discuss some of that. 17:47:03 VQ: In addition to the issue of schemes and protocols, it's not completely clear how to address the specific aspects of P2P and streaming. I'm not sure how to explore further to avoid missing other aspects of web architecture. 17:47:21 VQ: I don't see anything else to do in the short term. 17:47:30 btw, the global grid URI that I see is http://www.gridforum.org/ 17:48:42 ht: Suggests that the schemes/protocols finding is a very general question, the question of, for instance, is it possible to integrate P2P transport mechanisms into the web, is perhaps a separate question and we should take it up in due course. 17:48:50 ht: I'd like to see that in a separate document, I think. 17:49:09 ack 17:49:13 ack ht 17:49:13 ht, you wanted to say that I'm more concerned to hear from further afield, i.e. the 'Big Physics' GRID as opposed to the WS-Grid and to support the separation of the peer-to-peer 17:49:16 ... question from schemesProtocols-?? 17:49:54 VQ suggests we proceed with the finding and if we discover that other issues are raised, then we can decide how to address them, perhaps separately. 17:49:55 -Dave_Orchard 17:50:42 NM: I think it's important to agree on a cople of things: we should be able to iterate on the scope of the findings and HT's paraphrase is a little narrower than I had in mind when I raised the issue. Some of these P2P/streaming issues are strong motivators for opening this issue. 17:51:39 NM: If they're decoupled, we should separate them, but I'd like license to find out if they are. 17:51:41 ht: Of course 17:52:53 VQ asks NM about attendence 17:53:01 NM: I'll be here next week, then on vacation for two weeks 17:53:30 VQ: Several other folks are missing today. My proposal is to stop this discussion now and focus next week with NM on the scheme/protocol issues in more details 17:54:16 NM: That's fine, but I've had a lot of feedback so it may take time for me to get it all together 17:54:54 VQ: Any other issues? 17:55:12 ht: I'd welcome the opportunity to ask for some feedback about the naming discussion 17:55:28 ht: That's namespaceDocuments-8 and ... 17:55:38 -Noah_Mendelsohn 17:56:12 ht: ... abstractComponentRefs-3x 17:56:26 ht: I'm writing a longer piece on this for the TAG to consider 17:56:53 ht: I think the point I'm starting from is that a change in the way we think about namespaces has slowly evolved 17:57:17 ht: It crystalized in the discussion about whether the XML Core WG had done a bad thing by "adding a new name to the XML namespace" 17:57:34 ht: After pushing that back and forth for a while, I think that position is incoherent 17:57:50 ht: The namespaces REC provides a disambiguation mechanism, it's a syntactic device. That's *it* 17:58:09 ht: In particular, the primary conceptual unit that emerges from the namespaces REC is that of "expanded name" (What QT calls "expanded-QName") 17:59:08 ht: It doesn't make any sense to ask "is this name in this namespace". Namespaces don't have constituents. All we ever need are namespace names. The next level of discussion is about what particular things can be associated with expanded names. Typically, a spec/program/whatever uses a set of expanded names that have the same namespace name 17:59:14 q? 17:59:36 ht: it doesn't make any sense to talk about type definitions or graph nodes or information items being in a namespace. That's not the sort of thing a namespace is. A namespace is just shorthand for a namespace name. 17:59:50 NW: I think that's right. 18:00:37 ht: You didn't receive any feedback or answer to the message you sent yesterday evening? 18:00:41 s/ht:/vq:/ 18:01:00 ht: No, but the user experience workshop is probably occupying some of the folks I'd have expected feedback from 18:01:02 HT, I'm a little confused. Why can't we talk about adding a "new name to a namespace", when we say that a namespace *is defined by* a particular specification? 18:02:11 NW points out DO's comment and notes that DO is no longer on the phone 18:02:24 HT indicated his intent to reply in IRC for Dave 18:02:34 Well, I don't think we should say that, rather that a spec assigns definitions to names which share a namespace name 18:03:08 VQ: Any other topics for today? 18:03:20 DaveO has joined #tagmem 18:03:30 VQ: Adjourned 18:03:42 -Ed_Rice? 18:03:43 -Ht 18:03:45 -Vincent 18:03:46 -Norm 18:03:48 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended 18:03:49 Attendees were +1.916.785.aaaa, Norm, Ht, [INRIA], Vincent, Dave_Orchard, Noah_Mendelsohn 18:04:01 rrsagent, pointer? 18:04:01 See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-tagmem-irc#T18-04-01 18:04:02 DaveO, I said Well, I don't think we should say that, rather that a spec assigns definitions to names which share a namespace name 18:04:09 rrsagent, make minutes public 18:04:09 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:04:51 rrsagent, adminhelp 18:05:00 grrr, forgot to /msg that 18:05:11 rrsagent, make draft minutes 18:05:11 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make draft minutes', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:05:18 noah, do you remember the incantation? 18:05:40 oh, well, nevermind. I'll bang it together myself 18:05:44 rrsagent, please convert minutes 18:05:44 I'm logging. I don't understand 'please convert minutes', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:05:50 rrsagent, please draft minutes 18:05:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-tagmem-minutes.html ht 18:05:53 ! 18:05:57 thank you! 18:06:05 you have to use the magic word :-) 18:06:09 xyzzy! 18:06:11 plugh! 18:06:15 LOL! 18:06:21 Hello sailor 18:06:41 LOL again (fortunately everyone else within earshot has gone home by now) 18:06:50 heh 18:06:54 Night ht! 18:07:07 night, thanks for scribing 18:07:22 Nice to be home for an extended period, yes? 18:12:10 Yes! 20:15:13 Zakim has left #tagmem 20:53:32 Norm has joined #tagmem 22:04:43 noah_Schema_mtg has joined #tagmem