13:59:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
13:59:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc
13:59:12 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
13:59:35 <Steven> Meeting: RDF in XHTML TF weekly teleconference
13:59:39 <Steven> Chair: Ben Adida
14:00:41 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
14:00:48 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:01:17 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-work
14:01:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:19 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:01:20 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:01:21 <Zakim> +Steven
14:05:59 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #swbp
14:06:16 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:06:31 <Steven> Present: Steven, Ben, Mark
14:06:43 <Steven> Absent: Ralph, DanBri
14:07:05 <Zakim> +??P22
14:07:05 <Steven> Topic: GRDDL Stuff
14:07:17 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
14:07:22 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
14:07:36 <Steven> Ben: I talked with DanC this week about GRDDL
14:07:50 <Steven> ... we would like to add a GRDDLY transform somewhere
14:08:30 <MarkB_> Ben asked if the XHTML schema would live at the namespace URL address.
14:08:38 <MarkB_> Steven said no decision had been taken yet.
14:08:41 <Steven> Steven: Maybe
14:09:01 <Steven> ... depends on content negotiation
14:09:49 <Steven> Ben: we could specify a GRDDL transform in the head of the HTML doc that lives at the end of the NS URI
14:09:54 <Steven> Steven: Sounds fine
14:12:59 <Steven> Topic: Proofreading Ben's reply
14:13:17 <Steven> Ben: Is my usage of RDF:bag OK?
14:13:48 <Steven> Mark: We changed the inheritance rules, and haven't yet redrafted the RDF/A document
14:14:25 <Steven> ... the example you gave had nested elements in an about, and I'm not sure if that was the final version
14:15:33 <Steven> Steven: I am sure we agreed to inherit the about
14:15:39 <Steven> Mark: I need to check
14:15:55 <Steven> ... especially check the use cases in the rdf/a document
14:16:25 <Steven> Mark: IPTC are thinking of adopting rdf/a
14:16:48 <Steven> ... one of the examples that someone from IPTC showed asked how we were going to do lists
14:17:17 <Steven> ... tis was one of the reasons I wanted to put the rdf;bag stuff on hold
14:17:23 <Steven> s/;/:/
14:17:31 <Steven> s/tis/this/
14:18:19 <Steven> Mark: A new requirement from IPTC is the ability to use qnames in the object as well as the properties
14:18:45 <Steven> ... and I think we do need to think about the bag/list stuff
14:19:10 <Steven> ... to avoid repetition
14:20:04 <Steven> Mark: One possibility is to rephrase the example that uses bags
14:20:13 <Steven> Ben: can we give you an action?
14:20:15 <Steven> Mark: Yes
14:20:19 <benadida> ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A
14:20:38 <Steven> Mark: If those are OK, we can tweak the example
14:21:08 <Steven> Ben: I woule like to resolve it before we reply, if possible
14:21:23 <Steven> s/woule/would/
14:22:25 <Steven> Mark: Part of the requirement from IPTC is to keep the markup short
14:22:43 <Steven> ... and consistency between how you refer to object and subject
14:25:10 <Steven> Mark: We could use a special character in hrefs, such as "[" to mark qnames in href, or different attributes for the two cases, such as href and qref
14:25:35 <Steven> Ben: THis is for brevity?
14:25:40 <Steven> s/THis/This/
14:26:10 <Steven> Mark: Yes, because their use cases adds MASSES of metadata
14:26:59 <Steven> ... and apparently in the WAI area this is also an issue
14:29:13 <Steven> Mark: One way would be to do something special with meta and link, such as adding extra attributes, but not generalise those attributes, allowing them only on those elements.
14:30:19 <Steven> Ben: I think it would be good if IPTC adopted this, so we should consider their requirements
14:31:08 <Steven> ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki
14:31:29 <Steven> Topic: Bnodes
14:31:43 <Steven> Ben: I am convinced, I appreciate your summary
14:32:30 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html
14:32:45 <Steven> Ben: But would like more feedback from other members of the TF
14:32:56 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
14:34:56 <Steven> Topic: IPTC
14:35:04 <Steven> Mark: Another IPTC requirement
14:35:28 <Steven> ... was that they would have many attributes from different namespaces on one element
14:35:36 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0024.html
14:36:06 <Steven> Mark: we could make any 'foreign' attribute a predicate
14:36:58 <Steven> ... this would then work with other attributes within XHTML2
14:37:04 <Steven> ... such as media type
14:37:16 <Steven> Ben: This sounds a little worrying
14:37:59 <Steven> Steven: It might break backwards and forwards compatibility
14:38:15 <Steven> ... since attributes might mean different things between different versions of XHTML2
14:38:59 <Steven> Mark: Well, it's only metadata; it shouldn't matter if it gets added to the triple store, even if it means something else as well
14:39:52 <Steven> ... the problem is working out what the content of the foreign attribute is
14:40:25 <Steven> Ben: I won't be able to come to the IPTC coordination meeting in July
14:40:33 <Steven> ... Eric Miller will be there
14:40:49 <Steven> Mark: I have already talked with Eric about it
14:41:10 <Steven> Steven: So have I; don't know if I can/will be there
14:41:24 <Steven> Mark: Not clear for me either
14:42:15 <Steven> Ben: We should coordinate with Eric
14:42:27 <Steven> ACTION: Ben chat to Eric about IPTC
14:43:51 <Steven> Mark: Their issues are soluble; their higher level issue is whether to use XHTML2
14:44:28 <Steven> ... instead of their in-house language
14:45:55 <Steven> Topic: Interpreting author meaning
14:45:56 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-metaAttributes.html#sec_23.2.
14:46:32 <Steven> Mark: The question is does the wording imply that a rel= implies an rdf statement
14:46:37 <Steven> ?
14:46:44 <Steven> s/Mark/Ben/
14:47:06 <Steven> Mark: Well, the idea is that you are making RDF statements whether you like it or not
14:48:09 <Steven> Steven: WOuld you liek to replace "The metadata attributes can be used to generate RDF statements." with
14:48:22 <Steven> ... The metadata attributes represent RDF statements.
14:48:44 <Steven> Ben: Yes, that would be fine. I thought it might just be a wording issue
14:48:56 <Steven> s/WOuld/Would/
14:49:03 <Steven> s/liek/like/
14:49:52 <Steven> Ben: It is basically to do with author intent
14:50:15 <Steven> ... whether they really meant to say what we will extract in rdf triples
14:53:34 <Steven> Ben: Are there examples where the author wouldn't be generating rdf?
14:53:56 <Steven> Steven: Well rel="next" can be used by the user agent to authomatically go to the next document
14:54:06 <Steven> ... and the author may not have been thinking rdf
14:54:21 <Steven> ... but I see no harm in this also representing rdf
14:55:02 <Steven> Ben: I want to avoid the situation where there could be any ambiguity in whether the author really meant what is in the markup
14:55:44 <Steven> s/authomat/automat/
14:56:32 <danbri> danbri has joined #swbp
14:56:54 <danbri> (vmtf overrunning...)
14:57:13 <benadida> please join us!
14:59:46 <Steven> Mark: XHTML2 reserves all unprefixed values
15:00:55 <Steven> Ben: So any prefixed values mean nothing in XHTML2, and can only be interpreted as RDF
15:01:17 <Steven> Steven: I think we need to say that there is an equivalence regardless of prefix
15:01:32 <Steven> ... I don't see why it matters
15:02:21 <Steven> Mark: I'm trying to think of how to word it without being too proscriptive (for instance to allow flexibility in the use of rel="next")
15:03:32 <Steven> Ben: That brings us to the question of DanBri's schema, and our action item
15:04:01 <Steven> Steven: Well, most of the questions just bring up questions in my mind, so I would rather discuss it
15:04:19 <Steven> Ben: We will discuss it next week then
15:05:16 <Steven> Ben: Steven/Mark, would you please send suggested wording for 23.3 to the mailing list?
15:05:20 <Steven> Steven: OK
15:05:35 <Steven> s/23.3/23.2/
15:05:50 <Steven> ACTION: Steven send wording for 23.2 to mailing list
15:07:52 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:07:54 <Zakim> -MarkB_
15:07:56 <Zakim> -Steven
15:07:56 <benadida> Steven, can you generate the minutes?
15:07:58 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
15:07:59 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Steven, MarkB_
15:08:07 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:08:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-minutes.html Steven
15:14:09 <Steven> zakim, bye
15:14:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swbp
15:14:14 <Steven> rrsagent, bye
15:14:14 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items:
15:14:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [1]
15:14:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T14-20-19
15:14:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki [2]
15:14:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T14-31-08
15:14:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [3]
15:14:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T14-32-56
15:14:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben chat to Eric about IPTC [4]
15:14:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T14-42-27
15:14:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven send wording for 23.2 to mailing list [5]
15:14:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T15-05-50
15:14:22 <benadida> benadida has left #swbp