IRC log of swbp on 2005-06-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:05 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc

13:59:12 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

13:59:35 [Steven]

Meeting: RDF in XHTML TF weekly teleconference

13:59:39 [Steven]

Chair: Ben Adida

14:00:41 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started

14:00:48 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:01:17 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-work

14:01:17 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:01:19 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

14:01:20 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:01:21 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:05:59 [MarkB_]

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14:06:16 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

14:06:31 [Steven]

Present: Steven, Ben, Mark

14:06:43 [Steven]

Absent: Ralph, DanBri

14:07:05 [Zakim]

+??P22

14:07:05 [Steven]

Topic: GRDDL Stuff

14:07:17 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

14:07:22 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

14:07:36 [Steven]

Ben: I talked with DanC this week about GRDDL

14:07:50 [Steven]

... we would like to add a GRDDLY transform somewhere

14:08:30 [MarkB_]

Ben asked if the XHTML schema would live at the namespace URL address.

14:08:38 [MarkB_]

Steven said no decision had been taken yet.

14:08:41 [Steven]

Steven: Maybe

14:09:01 [Steven]

... depends on content negotiation

14:09:49 [Steven]

Ben: we could specify a GRDDL transform in the head of the HTML doc that lives at the end of the NS URI

14:09:54 [Steven]

Steven: Sounds fine

14:12:59 [Steven]

Topic: Proofreading Ben's reply

14:13:17 [Steven]

Ben: Is my usage of RDF:bag OK?

14:13:48 [Steven]

Mark: We changed the inheritance rules, and haven't yet redrafted the RDF/A document

14:14:25 [Steven]

... the example you gave had nested elements in an about, and I'm not sure if that was the final version

14:15:33 [Steven]

Steven: I am sure we agreed to inherit the about

14:15:39 [Steven]

Mark: I need to check

14:15:55 [Steven]

... especially check the use cases in the rdf/a document

14:16:25 [Steven]

Mark: IPTC are thinking of adopting rdf/a

14:16:48 [Steven]

... one of the examples that someone from IPTC showed asked how we were going to do lists

14:17:17 [Steven]

... tis was one of the reasons I wanted to put the rdf;bag stuff on hold

14:17:23 [Steven]

s/;/:/

14:17:31 [Steven]

s/tis/this/

14:18:19 [Steven]

Mark: A new requirement from IPTC is the ability to use qnames in the object as well as the properties

14:18:45 [Steven]

... and I think we do need to think about the bag/list stuff

14:19:10 [Steven]

... to avoid repetition

14:20:04 [Steven]

Mark: One possibility is to rephrase the example that uses bags

14:20:13 [Steven]

Ben: can we give you an action?

14:20:15 [Steven]

Mark: Yes

14:20:19 [benadida]

ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A

14:20:38 [Steven]

Mark: If those are OK, we can tweak the example

14:21:08 [Steven]

Ben: I woule like to resolve it before we reply, if possible

14:21:23 [Steven]

s/woule/would/

14:22:25 [Steven]

Mark: Part of the requirement from IPTC is to keep the markup short

14:22:43 [Steven]

... and consistency between how you refer to object and subject

14:25:10 [Steven]

Mark: We could use a special character in hrefs, such as "[" to mark qnames in href, or different attributes for the two cases, such as href and qref

14:25:35 [Steven]

Ben: THis is for brevity?

14:25:40 [Steven]

s/THis/This/

14:26:10 [Steven]

Mark: Yes, because their use cases adds MASSES of metadata

14:26:59 [Steven]

... and apparently in the WAI area this is also an issue

14:29:13 [Steven]

Mark: One way would be to do something special with meta and link, such as adding extra attributes, but not generalise those attributes, allowing them only on those elements.

14:30:19 [Steven]

Ben: I think it would be good if IPTC adopted this, so we should consider their requirements

14:31:08 [Steven]

ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki

14:31:29 [Steven]

Topic: Bnodes

14:31:43 [Steven]

Ben: I am convinced, I appreciate your summary

14:32:30 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html

14:32:45 [Steven]

Ben: But would like more feedback from other members of the TF

14:32:56 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A

14:34:56 [Steven]

Topic: IPTC

14:35:04 [Steven]

Mark: Another IPTC requirement

14:35:28 [Steven]

... was that they would have many attributes from different namespaces on one element

14:35:36 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0024.html

14:36:06 [Steven]

Mark: we could make any 'foreign' attribute a predicate

14:36:58 [Steven]

... this would then work with other attributes within XHTML2

14:37:04 [Steven]

... such as media type

14:37:16 [Steven]

Ben: This sounds a little worrying

14:37:59 [Steven]

Steven: It might break backwards and forwards compatibility

14:38:15 [Steven]

... since attributes might mean different things between different versions of XHTML2

14:38:59 [Steven]

Mark: Well, it's only metadata; it shouldn't matter if it gets added to the triple store, even if it means something else as well

14:39:52 [Steven]

... the problem is working out what the content of the foreign attribute is

14:40:25 [Steven]

Ben: I won't be able to come to the IPTC coordination meeting in July

14:40:33 [Steven]

... Eric Miller will be there

14:40:49 [Steven]

Mark: I have already talked with Eric about it

14:41:10 [Steven]

Steven: So have I; don't know if I can/will be there

14:41:24 [Steven]

Mark: Not clear for me either

14:42:15 [Steven]

Ben: We should coordinate with Eric

14:42:27 [Steven]

ACTION: Ben chat to Eric about IPTC

14:43:51 [Steven]

Mark: Their issues are soluble; their higher level issue is whether to use XHTML2

14:44:28 [Steven]

... instead of their in-house language

14:45:55 [Steven]

Topic: Interpreting author meaning

14:45:56 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-metaAttributes.html#sec_23.2.

14:46:32 [Steven]

Mark: The question is does the wording imply that a rel= implies an rdf statement

14:46:37 [Steven]

?

14:46:44 [Steven]

s/Mark/Ben/

14:47:06 [Steven]

Mark: Well, the idea is that you are making RDF statements whether you like it or not

14:48:09 [Steven]

Steven: WOuld you liek to replace "The metadata attributes can be used to generate RDF statements." with

14:48:22 [Steven]

... The metadata attributes represent RDF statements.

14:48:44 [Steven]

Ben: Yes, that would be fine. I thought it might just be a wording issue

14:48:56 [Steven]

s/WOuld/Would/

14:49:03 [Steven]

s/liek/like/

14:49:52 [Steven]

Ben: It is basically to do with author intent

14:50:15 [Steven]

... whether they really meant to say what we will extract in rdf triples

14:53:34 [Steven]

Ben: Are there examples where the author wouldn't be generating rdf?

14:53:56 [Steven]

Steven: Well rel="next" can be used by the user agent to authomatically go to the next document

14:54:06 [Steven]

... and the author may not have been thinking rdf

14:54:21 [Steven]

... but I see no harm in this also representing rdf

14:55:02 [Steven]

Ben: I want to avoid the situation where there could be any ambiguity in whether the author really meant what is in the markup

14:55:44 [Steven]

s/authomat/automat/

14:56:32 [danbri]

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(vmtf overrunning...)

14:57:13 [benadida]

please join us!

14:59:46 [Steven]

Mark: XHTML2 reserves all unprefixed values

15:00:55 [Steven]

Ben: So any prefixed values mean nothing in XHTML2, and can only be interpreted as RDF

15:01:17 [Steven]

Steven: I think we need to say that there is an equivalence regardless of prefix

15:01:32 [Steven]

... I don't see why it matters

15:02:21 [Steven]

Mark: I'm trying to think of how to word it without being too proscriptive (for instance to allow flexibility in the use of rel="next")

15:03:32 [Steven]

Ben: That brings us to the question of DanBri's schema, and our action item

15:04:01 [Steven]

Steven: Well, most of the questions just bring up questions in my mind, so I would rather discuss it

15:04:19 [Steven]

Ben: We will discuss it next week then

15:05:16 [Steven]

Ben: Steven/Mark, would you please send suggested wording for 23.3 to the mailing list?

15:05:20 [Steven]

Steven: OK

15:05:35 [Steven]

s/23.3/23.2/

15:05:50 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven send wording for 23.2 to mailing list

15:07:52 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:07:54 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

15:07:56 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:07:56 [benadida]

Steven, can you generate the minutes?

15:07:58 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended

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Attendees were Ben_Adida, Steven, MarkB_

15:08:07 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:08:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-minutes.html Steven

15:14:09 [Steven]

zakim, bye

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15:14:14 [Steven]

rrsagent, bye

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items:

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [1]

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T14-20-19

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki [2]

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T14-31-08

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [3]

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T14-32-56

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben chat to Eric about IPTC [4]

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T14-42-27

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven send wording for 23.2 to mailing list [5]

15:14:14 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/21-swbp-irc#T15-05-50

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