IRC log of eo on 2005-06-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:24:52 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:24:52 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:26:05 [Justin]
yeah sure
12:26:10 [Andrew]
\me thinks maybe shawn has an irish accent in her fingers tonight
12:26:25 [shawn]
12:26:35 [pasquale]
pasquale has joined #eo
12:26:37 [shawn]
it comes from replying to barry's email this morning, i guess
12:26:39 [shawn]
12:26:43 [pasquale]
hi all, goodmornig
12:27:06 [shawn]
good morning, pasquale. do you have a couple of minutes to talk about the call (about CSS)?
12:27:13 [shawn]
12:27:32 [shadi]
hi pasquale. you're european so good afternoon!
12:28:17 [Justin]
Meeting: EOWG
12:28:17 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:28:21 [Zakim]
12:28:24 [Zakim]
12:28:27 [Justin]
Chair: Judy
12:28:28 [pasquale]
i've problem with skype today, for now i must go with IRC
12:28:33 [pasquale]
12:29:02 [Justin]
12:29:26 [Zakim]
12:29:40 [Zakim]
12:29:47 [Zakim]
12:30:04 [Justin]
Zakim, ??P2 is Justin
12:30:04 [Zakim]
+Justin; got it
12:31:14 [Zakim]
12:31:15 [Zakim]
12:31:24 [Justin]
Regrets: Sailesh, Ron, Alan, Chuck
12:31:54 [Justin]
Zakim, ??P4 is Wayne
12:31:54 [Zakim]
+Wayne; got it
12:32:04 [Justin]
Zakim, ??P5 is Liam
12:32:05 [Zakim]
12:32:06 [Zakim]
+Liam; got it
12:32:15 [Zakim]
12:32:25 [Zakim]
12:32:30 [Zakim]
12:32:43 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
12:32:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Loughborough, Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy
12:32:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pasquale, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, Wayne, judy, emmajane, Andrew, shawn, shadi
12:32:58 [Zakim]
12:33:04 [Zakim]
12:33:27 [Justin]
Zakim, ??P9 is Barry
12:33:27 [Zakim]
+Barry; got it
12:33:28 [Zakim]
12:33:32 [Andrew]
zakim, ??p21 is Andrew
12:33:32 [Zakim]
sorry, Andrew, I do not recognize a party named '??p21'
12:33:38 [barry]
barry has joined #eo
12:33:39 [Justin]
Zakim, ??P11 is Pasquale
12:33:39 [Zakim]
+Pasquale; got it
12:33:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.416.531.aaaa
12:33:46 [Andrew]
zakim, ??p12 is Andrew
12:33:46 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
12:34:05 [Justin]
Zakim, aaaa is Emma
12:34:05 [Zakim]
+Emma; got it
12:34:16 [Helle]
Helle has joined #eo
12:34:56 [Helle]
I'm a little late on the phone will sjoin asap
12:35:35 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
12:35:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Loughborough, Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, Andrew, Emma
12:35:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Helle, barry, pasquale, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, Wayne, judy, emmajane, Andrew, shawn, shadi
12:37:02 [Zakim]
12:37:18 [Zakim]
12:38:41 [Helle]
zakim, mute helle
12:38:41 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:38:57 [shawn]
zkim, who is making noise?
12:39:07 [shawn]
zakim, who is making noise?
12:39:19 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (91%), Pasquale (27%)
12:40:03 [Justin]
12:42:52 [shawn]
zakim, mute helle
12:42:52 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:43:27 [emmajane]
zakim, mute me
12:43:27 [Zakim]
sorry, emmajane, I do not see a party named 'emmajane'
12:43:38 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
12:43:38 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
12:43:57 [emmajane]
Can someone make my names match?
12:44:01 [Justin]
zakim, emma is emmajane
12:44:01 [Zakim]
+emmajane; got it
12:44:06 [emmajane]
12:44:11 [Justin]
no problem
12:44:26 [Helle]
zakim, unmute me
12:44:26 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
12:45:10 [JackW]
JackW has joined #eo
12:45:37 [emmajane]
zakim, unmute me
12:45:37 [Zakim]
emmajane should no longer be muted
12:46:09 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
12:46:15 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
12:46:54 [shawn]
scribe info is at:
12:47:02 [shawn]
scribe: wayne
12:47:12 [shawn]
scribenick: Wayne
12:47:29 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
12:47:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Loughborough (muted), Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, Andrew, emmajane, Helle_Bjarno,
12:47:32 [Zakim]
... Sylvie_Duchateau (muted)
12:47:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JackW, Helle, barry, pasquale, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, Wayne, judy, emmajane, Andrew, shawn, shadi
12:47:42 [shawn]
present: Loughborough (muted), Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, Andrew, emmajane, Helle_Bjarno,
12:47:52 [shawn]
present+ Sylvie_Duchateau
12:48:57 [Wayne]
topic: Outreach
12:49:31 [Andrew]
present+ Eric Velleman
12:49:39 [Wayne]
Shawn, is that right for topic marker
12:50:39 [Harvey]
Harvey has joined #eo
12:50:41 [emmajane]
it has been hot!
12:50:44 [emmajane]
zakim, mute me
12:50:44 [Zakim]
emmajane should now be muted
12:51:01 [Helle]
zakim, mute me
12:51:01 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:51:02 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
12:51:03 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
12:51:19 [Wayne]
topic: Highlights
12:51:46 [pasquale]
zakim, mute me
12:51:46 [Zakim]
Pasquale should now be muted
12:52:09 [Wayne]
Shawn Wording size, tone, shorter, personal, authorship... Conceptual not formating
12:53:02 [Wayne]
Shawn: Task force was very active, has had attrition, opportunities
12:53:19 [Andrew]
12:55:32 [Wayne]
Barry: Good balance for the things we want to cover. How will topics be rolled over?
12:56:14 [Wayne]
Shawn: We hope for more than once a month. Roll over topics as they occur. Hoping for once a week
12:56:25 [shadi_]
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12:58:28 [Wayne]
General: Aproval
12:58:35 [barry]
good to go!
12:59:24 [emmajane]
The Web Standards Project ( is keen to have an RSS feed that they can use.
12:59:49 [emmajane]
zakim, unmute me
12:59:49 [Zakim]
emmajane should no longer be muted
12:59:53 [emmajane]
The Web Standards Project ( is keen to have an RSS feed that they can use.
13:00:05 [emmajane]
(hmm, I'm gray?)
13:00:52 [emmajane]
zakim, mute me
13:00:52 [Zakim]
emmajane should now be muted
13:01:26 [Wayne]
Judy: Please look at these carefully; look at wording;
13:01:55 [Wayne]
Bill: expand the acronym.
13:03:43 [Wayne]
Doyle: Headline doesn't seem to work. How does this work with other languages
13:04:54 [Wayne]
Andrew: Headlines should target the audience they want.
13:06:07 [Wayne]
Bill: Tied to "Got Milk" with "Got ATAG". Will this transfer internationally?
13:06:36 [Helle]
zakim, unmute me
13:06:36 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:07:03 [Wayne]
Judy: Language level looks like it is a more consistent language level (natural).
13:07:22 [Wayne]
Helle: Agrees that it is clear now.
13:10:15 [Wayne]
Shawn: Authorship listing has problems. It would personalize the page, but there are problems identifying all the authors.
13:11:36 [Wayne]
Bill: Finding your way is a key element rather than a news item. (It is a standing need.)
13:13:17 [shawn]
lol to finding your mojo :-)
13:15:06 [Wayne]
Someone pointed out that the play on words that equates "wai" with "way" doesn't work internationally. WAI is often pronouncet with a long I.
13:15:49 [Wayne]
Helle: Should point what part of W3C is working on the document.
13:16:06 [Helle]
zakim, mute me
13:16:06 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:16:44 [Wayne]
topic: Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility
13:18:06 [Wayne]
Judy: What we want to focus on is the reorganization
13:19:41 [Wayne]
Shadi: Developers should be given strategies and tools to strategize and organize removing know barriers from their web site. conceptual comments, no formatting and wording.
13:20:25 [Wayne]
Judy: The nested bullets are not the final look;
13:21:03 [Wayne]
Judy: Organizational concepts, idea flow...
13:22:19 [judy]
13:22:25 [shadi]
13:22:46 [Wayne]
Liam: Organizations are interested a plan, setting steps etc....
13:23:20 [Wayne]
Judy: The WAI implementation document addresses many of these issues.
13:24:04 [Wayne]
Shadi: Could Liam reflect on that thought a liitle more... would be interested...
13:24:59 [Harvey]
What url are we discussing?
13:25:09 [emmajane]
13:25:12 [Wayne]
Liam: Information about other resources, process management, want answers to problems, have a site to retrofit.
13:26:08 [shadi]
13:26:26 [Wayne]
Shadi: This issue was raised in previous
13:27:34 [Wayne]
William: Pays no heed to the barriers being social, not just technical, misses the disability rights focus.
13:29:12 [Wayne]
William: Explicit problem, the real barriers are not preceptible to many developers
13:31:02 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
13:31:02 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
13:34:30 [Wayne]
Shadi: This is not technical to the point markup; Perhaps we need the referencing.
13:35:36 [Wayne]
Henk: You must repair a site according to a report. You may not need awareness.
13:37:03 [Wayne]
Justin: You do need the some awareness information so that content managers don't add bad content.
13:38:05 [Wayne]
Judy: You need a mini-project planning for retro
13:38:11 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
13:38:11 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
13:40:29 [Justin]
Regrets+ Roberto
13:40:50 [barry]
13:43:46 [Wayne]
Judy: Would flipping the order work: Introduction, actualy retrofitting details, then how you got there and how to prefent it.
13:44:53 [Andrew]
Andrew concurs with the flipping idea - lets fix the emergency first, then look at preventing future problem
13:44:55 [Wayne]
Barry: Higer priority how do sort out the worst things, then how to prevent it? Triage concept.
13:47:41 [Wayne]
Shadi: Maybe the heading of section 2 "Fixing the Causes" is misleading. Many parts of the section are practical. Don't get caught in titles.
13:48:55 [Wayne]
William: Need triage on top.
13:50:01 [Wayne]
Shadi: Fire fighting seems more technical and less process oriented. It doesn't match the begining of the call.
13:50:34 [Wayne]
Shadi: When you say more practical, what do you mean?
13:51:03 [Wayne]
Judy: Can we brain storm on process steps?
13:51:30 [Wayne]
???: Estimating time and other costs of retrofitting
13:51:46 [Wayne]
13:53:07 [Wayne]
Andrew: Who is involved; Go back to authors for example. Assigning responsibility
13:54:13 [Wayne]
William: User complaints; User has standing; Lawyers, Client,..
13:54:48 [Wayne]
Wayne: does William mean "role" rather than standing?
13:56:26 [Wayne]
Shadi: What is different about retrofitting from than other design issues?
13:57:35 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
13:57:37 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
13:58:23 [Wayne]
Shadi: The only unique thing about retrofitting is prioritizing.
13:58:37 [Wayne]
Shadi: Where do I start?
13:58:59 [shawn]
13:59:02 [Wayne]
Henk: Do miss the related pages.
13:59:04 [shawn]
ack me
14:02:42 [Wayne]
zakim, mute me
14:02:42 [Zakim]
Wayne should now be muted
14:03:56 [Wayne]
topic: Before/After
14:06:07 [Wayne]
Judy: Lots of talk about Before/After retrofitting demonstrations; One example was placed before congress, but it was not stand alone.
14:07:08 [Wayne]
There were many requests for demo, and we have people to volunteer; We are looking at feedback from EO before that work goes ahead.
14:08:36 [Helle]
zakim, unmute me
14:08:36 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
14:09:22 [Wayne]
Jack: I have seen before an after demos. These really helps people say "I get this now"
14:10:00 [Wayne]
Jack: Used one, but did not think it was a WAI demo
14:10:34 [Wayne]
Judy: Context- want to fit in with Retrofitting and Evaluation Suite
14:11:26 [Wayne]
Helle: The concept is sound.
14:12:00 [Wayne]
William: Historically there are lots of examples, but they are hard to find.
14:12:28 [Wayne]
Judy: Develop site that is clear and usable.
14:12:54 [Wayne]
Helle: What is the starting point? Are we starting from scratch?
14:13:32 [Wayne]
Judy: There are three from before, but they are not ready to go. It is pretty rough.
14:16:25 [Wayne]
Judy: Like an EO document, introduction (context), references,..bad site, model analysis, mini retrofitting plan, a fixed site.
14:18:04 [Wayne]
William: Same set of pages and same appearance. Should it be improved apearance:
14:18:48 [Wayne]
Helle: We must not mix up accessible and usable.
14:19:39 [Wayne]
???: The idea is to fix accessibility without changing the sight.
14:20:15 [Wayne]
Liam: Site has one good view and several bad looks.
14:20:36 [judy]
14:20:45 [Wayne]
Helle: doen't that mean that the intended appearance should stay the same
14:21:07 [shawn]
14:21:13 [shawn]
14:21:32 [Wayne]
Barry: I think we agree
14:21:42 [shawn]
s/Liam: Site has/Barry: Site has
14:22:19 [shawn]
s/???: The/?Eric: The
14:24:53 [emmajane]
zakim, unmute me
14:24:53 [Zakim]
emmajane should no longer be muted
14:26:17 [Wayne]
Judy: Bad site, evaluation of site (clear about what is needed), mini plan, new site
14:26:43 [Wayne]
Wayne: probably need some alternative views. (wish list)
14:26:53 [shadi]
14:26:58 [shadi]
q- barry
14:27:58 [emmajane]
14:29:10 [emmajane]
14:29:32 [shadi]
14:29:36 [Wayne]
Shadi: Bad html means invalid and misused. Main focus should not be how people experience a site.
14:29:37 [shadi]
ack emmajane
14:31:25 [Wayne]
Emma: Should not miss some alternative views like color blindness,...
14:31:48 [Wayne]
Judy: focus on one good site, followed by links to other sites.
14:31:50 [Andrew]
Andrew: or contrast issues (often age related)
14:33:51 [Wayne]
Eric: We have a group to work on bad and good pages.
14:36:14 [emmajane]
wayne: and also the fact that we shouldn't imply that graphic design changes should _not_ be required to make a site accessible as graphic changes can often mean more people will be required to make the fixes.
14:36:51 [emmajane]
erm. triple negatives....
14:37:03 [emmajane]
graphic design changes != required
14:37:33 [Wayne]
emma, I got it
14:37:38 [emmajane]
14:37:54 [Zakim]
14:37:55 [Zakim]
14:37:55 [Zakim]
14:37:56 [Zakim]
14:37:58 [Zakim]
14:37:59 [Zakim]
14:38:01 [Zakim]
14:38:03 [Zakim]
14:38:04 [Zakim]
14:38:06 [Zakim]
14:38:16 [shawn]
topic: highlight heading re-wording
14:38:16 [shawn]
(after end of official call :)
14:38:16 [shawn]
from discussion: judy "authoring tool not clear...." andrew: "as is catches the target audience"
14:38:16 [shawn]
1. Blog, Wiki, CMS... Got ATAG?
14:38:16 [shawn]
2. Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...
14:38:17 [shawn]
pros of 2: adds authoring tools. think "got atag" nicer up front.
14:38:19 [shawn]
cons of 2: "blog, wiki, cms" lower & might lost, and that's who & what we're trying to catch with this one
14:38:19 [Zakim]
14:38:26 [Zakim]
14:38:31 [Zakim]
14:38:50 [Zakim]
14:39:00 [Justin]
14:39:05 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
14:39:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shawn, Justin, Andrew
14:39:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see shadi, JackW, barry, pasquale, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, judy, emmajane, Andrew, shawn
14:39:17 [shawn]
Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...
14:39:34 [emmajane]
Shawn: I agree with Andrew that the terms will catch the attention of the right people/interested people. And then the content of the section will hopefully expand on the title for those that don't know the terms.
14:39:40 [shawn]
Blog, Wiki, CMS... Got ATAG?
14:40:37 [shawn]
Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...
14:41:14 [shawn]
Got ATAG? Blog, Wiki, CMS...
14:41:15 [emmajane]
"Got ATAG? [Complicance] for your Authoring Tool"
14:41:29 [shawn]
emmajane - can you join call?
14:41:37 [emmajane]
on the phone?
14:41:41 [emmajane]
d'oh. I just hung up. :)
14:41:44 [shawn]
yes. same #
14:41:53 [emmajane]
I'll call back in. Sorry. :)
14:43:00 [shawn]
Blogs, Wikis, CMS... Got ATAG?
14:43:23 [emmajane]
it won't let me back in :(
14:43:36 [emmajane]
it says it's restricted.
14:43:46 [Justin]
14:44:02 [shawn]
emma - we're almost fone
14:44:09 [shawn]
14:44:19 [emmajane]
It says the code isn't valid anymore.
14:44:50 [emmajane]
That'll teach me for next time. ;)
14:50:17 [Zakim]
14:50:23 [Zakim]
14:50:25 [shawn]
emmajane, we don't usually do this. :-)
14:50:28 [Zakim]
14:50:29 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:50:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doyle_Saylor, Loughborough, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Wayne, Henk, Liam, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, +1.416.531.aaaa, Andrew, Helle_Bjarno, Sylvie_Duchateau,
14:50:33 [Zakim]
... emmajane
14:50:52 [shawn]
rrsagnet, make logs world
14:50:57 [shawn]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:51:05 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:51:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shawn
14:51:16 [emmajane]
shawn: stay and chat after you mean?
14:51:29 [shawn]
right - dont' usually stay on the line after the call.
14:51:57 [shawn]
well, not everyone :)
14:52:32 [Andrew]
it's often worth waiting an extra minute or wor - just in case
14:53:12 [shawn]
sometimes you get to hear an interesting bit :)
14:53:38 [emmajane]
that's when all the gossip happens, eh?
14:53:41 [shawn]
also, joining a few mins early to chat about the weather or news or vacations or such :)
14:54:18 [Andrew]
i must be missing something - don't find much gossip
14:54:18 [emmajane]
shawn: I met up with Laurie Harrison on Wednesday. She said she used to be part of this group and says hello.
14:54:43 [shawn]
hum... must have been before my time... or my memory is really bad :/
14:54:53 [Andrew]
hey - say hello from Andrew and Brian in Melbourne next time
14:54:54 [shawn]
no, not much gossip
14:55:04 [shawn]
ok, off to other stuff
14:55:07 [emmajane]
I think she remembered your name. She used to be at Uni of Toronto with Jutta Trevoranus (sp?)
14:55:10 [shawn]
have a great wkend.
14:55:29 [Andrew]
and I've got to call london (uk that is, not ontario)
14:55:39 [Andrew]
14:55:42 [emmajane]
14:55:48 [shawn]
shawn has left #eo
16:18:19 [shawn]
shawn has joined #eo
16:22:54 [pasquale]
pasquale has joined #eo
16:23:04 [pasquale]
hi shawn
16:23:12 [shawn]
16:23:45 [shawn]
can i call you?
16:23:54 [shawn]
zakim, bye
16:23:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #eo
16:23:57 [shawn]
rrsagent, bye
16:23:57 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items