12:24:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:24:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/17-eo-irc
12:26:05 <Justin> yeah sure
12:26:10 <Andrew> \me thinks maybe shawn has an irish accent in her fingers tonight
12:26:25 <shawn> :)
12:26:35 <pasquale> pasquale has joined #eo
12:26:37 <shawn> it comes from replying to barry's email this morning, i guess
12:26:39 <shawn> :)
12:26:43 <pasquale> hi all, goodmornig
12:27:06 <shawn> good morning, pasquale. do you have a couple of minutes to talk about the call (about CSS)?
12:27:13 <shawn> s/about/after
12:27:32 <shadi> hi pasquale. you're european so good afternoon!
12:28:17 <Justin> Meeting: EOWG
12:28:17 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:28:21 <Zakim> +Doyle_Saylor
12:28:24 <Zakim> +Loughborough
12:28:27 <Justin> Chair: Judy
12:28:28 <pasquale> i've problem with skype today, for now i must go with IRC
12:28:33 <pasquale> sorry
12:29:02 <Justin> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005AprJun/0159.html
12:29:26 <Zakim> +Shadi
12:29:40 <Zakim> +Shawn
12:29:47 <Zakim> +??P2
12:30:04 <Justin> Zakim, ??P2 is Justin
12:30:04 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
12:31:14 <Zakim> +??P4
12:31:15 <Zakim> +??P5
12:31:24 <Justin> Regrets: Sailesh, Ron, Alan, Chuck
12:31:54 <Justin> Zakim, ??P4 is Wayne
12:31:54 <Zakim> +Wayne; got it
12:32:04 <Justin> Zakim, ??P5 is Liam
12:32:05 <Zakim> +Henk
12:32:06 <Zakim> +Liam; got it
12:32:15 <Zakim> +Bingham
12:32:25 <Zakim> +Jack
12:32:30 <Zakim> +Judy
12:32:43 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
12:32:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see Loughborough, Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy
12:32:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see pasquale, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, Wayne, judy, emmajane, Andrew, shawn, shadi
12:32:58 <Zakim> +??P9
12:33:04 <Zakim> +??P11
12:33:27 <Justin> Zakim, ??P9 is Barry
12:33:27 <Zakim> +Barry; got it
12:33:28 <Zakim> +??P12
12:33:32 <Andrew> zakim, ??p21 is Andrew
12:33:32 <Zakim> sorry, Andrew, I do not recognize a party named '??p21'
12:33:38 <barry> barry has joined #eo
12:33:39 <Justin> Zakim, ??P11 is Pasquale
12:33:39 <Zakim> +Pasquale; got it
12:33:42 <Zakim> + +1.416.531.aaaa
12:33:46 <Andrew> zakim, ??p12 is Andrew
12:33:46 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
12:34:05 <Justin> Zakim, aaaa is Emma
12:34:05 <Zakim> +Emma; got it
12:34:16 <Helle> Helle has joined #eo
12:34:56 <Helle> I'm a little late on the phone will sjoin asap
12:35:35 <judy> zakim, who's here?
12:35:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Loughborough, Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, Andrew, Emma
12:35:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see Helle, barry, pasquale, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, Wayne, judy, emmajane, Andrew, shawn, shadi
12:37:02 <Zakim> +Helle_Bjarno
12:37:18 <Zakim> +Sylvie_Duchateau
12:38:41 <Helle> zakim, mute helle
12:38:41 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:38:57 <shawn> zkim, who is making noise?
12:39:07 <shawn> zakim, who is making noise?
12:39:19 <Zakim> shawn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (91%), Pasquale (27%)
12:40:03 <Justin> scribe?
12:42:52 <shawn> zakim, mute helle
12:42:52 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:43:27 <emmajane> zakim, mute me
12:43:27 <Zakim> sorry, emmajane, I do not see a party named 'emmajane'
12:43:38 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
12:43:38 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
12:43:57 <emmajane> Can someone make my names match?
12:44:01 <Justin> zakim, emma is emmajane
12:44:01 <Zakim> +emmajane; got it
12:44:06 <emmajane> thanks
12:44:11 <Justin> no problem
12:44:26 <Helle> zakim, unmute me
12:44:26 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
12:45:10 <JackW> JackW has joined #eo
12:45:37 <emmajane> zakim, unmute me
12:45:37 <Zakim> emmajane should no longer be muted
12:46:09 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
12:46:15 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
12:46:54 <shawn> scribe info is at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/template.html
12:47:02 <shawn> scribe: wayne
12:47:12 <shawn> scribenick: Wayne
12:47:29 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
12:47:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Loughborough (muted), Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, Andrew, emmajane, Helle_Bjarno,
12:47:32 <Zakim> ... Sylvie_Duchateau (muted)
12:47:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see JackW, Helle, barry, pasquale, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, Wayne, judy, emmajane, Andrew, shawn, shadi
12:47:42 <shawn> present:  Loughborough (muted), Doyle_Saylor, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Liam, Wayne, Henk, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, Andrew, emmajane, Helle_Bjarno,
12:47:52 <shawn> present+ Sylvie_Duchateau
12:48:57 <Wayne> topic: Outreach
12:49:31 <Andrew> present+ Eric Velleman
12:49:39 <Wayne> Shawn, is that right for topic marker
12:50:39 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
12:50:41 <emmajane> it has been hot!
12:50:44 <emmajane> zakim, mute me
12:50:44 <Zakim> emmajane should now be muted
12:51:01 <Helle> zakim, mute me
12:51:01 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:51:02 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
12:51:03 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
12:51:19 <Wayne> topic: Highlights
12:51:46 <pasquale> zakim, mute me
12:51:46 <Zakim> Pasquale should now be muted
12:52:09 <Wayne> Shawn Wording size, tone, shorter, personal, authorship... Conceptual not formating
12:53:02 <Wayne> Shawn: Task force was very active, has had attrition, opportunities
12:53:19 <Andrew> See: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ut3/
12:55:32 <Wayne> Barry:  Good balance for the things we want to cover.  How will topics be rolled over?
12:56:14 <Wayne> Shawn:  We hope for more than once a month.  Roll over topics as they occur.  Hoping for once a week
12:56:25 <shadi_> shadi_ has joined #eo
12:58:28 <Wayne> General: Aproval
12:58:35 <barry> good to go!
12:59:24 <emmajane> The Web Standards Project (www.wasp.org) is keen to have an RSS feed that they can use.
12:59:49 <emmajane> zakim, unmute me
12:59:49 <Zakim> emmajane should no longer be muted
12:59:53 <emmajane> The Web Standards Project (www.wasp.org) is keen to have an RSS feed that they can use.
13:00:05 <emmajane> (hmm, I'm gray?)
13:00:52 <emmajane> zakim, mute me
13:00:52 <Zakim> emmajane should now be muted
13:01:26 <Wayne> Judy:  Please look at these carefully; look at wording; 
13:01:55 <Wayne> Bill: expand the acronym.
13:03:43 <Wayne> Doyle:  Headline doesn't seem to work.  How does this work with other languages
13:04:54 <Wayne> Andrew: Headlines should target the audience they want.  
13:06:07 <Wayne> Bill: Tied to "Got Milk" with "Got ATAG".  Will this transfer internationally?
13:06:36 <Helle> zakim, unmute me
13:06:36 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:07:03 <Wayne> Judy:  Language level looks like it is a more consistent language level (natural).
13:07:22 <Wayne> Helle: Agrees that it is clear now.
13:10:15 <Wayne> Shawn:  Authorship listing has problems.  It would personalize the page, but there are problems identifying all the authors.  
13:11:36 <Wayne> Bill: Finding your way is a key element rather than a news item.  (It is a standing need.)
13:13:17 <shawn> lol to finding your mojo :-)
13:15:06 <Wayne> Someone pointed out that the play on words that equates "wai" with "way" doesn't work internationally.  WAI is often pronouncet with a long I.
13:15:49 <Wayne> Helle:  Should point what part of W3C is working on the document.
13:16:06 <Helle> zakim, mute me
13:16:06 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:16:44 <Wayne> topic: Retrofitting Web Sites for Accessibility
13:18:06 <Wayne> Judy:  What we want to focus on is the reorganization 
13:19:41 <Wayne> Shadi: Developers should be given strategies and tools to strategize and organize removing know barriers from their web site.  conceptual comments, no formatting and wording.
13:20:25 <Wayne> Judy: The nested bullets are not the final look; 
13:21:03 <Wayne> Judy: Organizational concepts, idea flow...
13:22:19 <judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/impl/
13:22:25 <shadi> q+
13:22:46 <Wayne> Liam: Organizations are interested a plan, setting steps etc....
13:23:20 <Wayne> Judy:  The WAI implementation document addresses many of these issues.
13:24:04 <Wayne> Shadi: Could Liam reflect on that thought a liitle more... would be interested...
13:24:59 <Harvey> What url are we discussing?
13:25:09 <emmajane> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/
13:25:12 <Wayne> Liam:  Information about other resources, process management, want answers to problems, have a site to retrofit.
13:26:08 <shadi> q-
13:26:26 <Wayne> Shadi:  This issue was raised in previous
13:27:34 <Wayne> William:  Pays no heed to the barriers being social, not just technical, misses the disability rights focus.
13:29:12 <Wayne> William: Explicit problem, the real barriers are not preceptible to many developers
13:31:02 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
13:31:02 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
13:34:30 <Wayne> Shadi: This is not technical to the point markup; Perhaps we need the referencing.
13:35:36 <Wayne> Henk: You must repair a site according to a report.  You may not need awareness.
13:37:03 <Wayne> Justin: You do need the some awareness information so that content managers don't add bad content.
13:38:05 <Wayne> Judy: You need a mini-project planning for retro
13:38:11 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
13:38:11 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
13:40:29 <Justin> Regrets+ Roberto
13:40:50 <barry> q+
13:43:46 <Wayne> Judy: Would flipping the order work:  Introduction,  actualy retrofitting details, then how you got there and how to prefent it. 
13:44:53 <Andrew> Andrew concurs with the flipping idea - lets fix the emergency first, then look at preventing future problem
13:44:55 <Wayne> Barry: Higer priority how do sort out the worst things, then how to prevent it? Triage concept.
13:47:41 <Wayne> Shadi: Maybe the heading of section 2 "Fixing the Causes" is misleading.  Many parts of the section are practical.   Don't get caught in titles.
13:48:55 <Wayne> William: Need triage on top.
13:50:01 <Wayne> Shadi: Fire fighting seems more technical and less process oriented.  It doesn't match the begining of the call.
13:50:34 <Wayne> Shadi: When you say more practical, what do you mean?
13:51:03 <Wayne> Judy:  Can we brain storm on process steps?
13:51:30 <Wayne> ???: Estimating time and other costs of retrofitting
13:51:46 <Wayne> Liam:
13:53:07 <Wayne> Andrew: Who is involved; Go back to authors for example.  Assigning responsibility
13:54:13 <Wayne> William: User complaints; User has standing; Lawyers, Client,..
13:54:48 <Wayne> Wayne: does William mean "role" rather than standing?
13:56:26 <Wayne> Shadi: What is different about retrofitting from than other design issues?
13:57:35 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
13:57:37 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
13:58:23 <Wayne> Shadi: The only unique thing about retrofitting is prioritizing.
13:58:37 <Wayne> Shadi: Where do I start?
13:58:59 <shawn> q+
13:59:02 <Wayne> Henk: Do miss the related pages.
13:59:04 <shawn> ack me
14:02:42 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
14:02:42 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
14:03:56 <Wayne> topic: Before/After
14:06:07 <Wayne> Judy: Lots of talk about Before/After retrofitting demonstrations; One example was placed before congress, but it was not stand alone.
14:07:08 <Wayne> There were many requests for demo, and we have people to volunteer; We are looking at feedback from EO before that work goes ahead.
14:08:36 <Helle> zakim, unmute me
14:08:36 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
14:09:22 <Wayne> Jack: I have seen before an after demos.  These really helps people say "I get this now"
14:10:00 <Wayne> Jack: Used one, but did not think it was a WAI demo
14:10:34 <Wayne> Judy: Context- want to fit in with Retrofitting and Evaluation Suite
14:11:26 <Wayne> Helle:  The concept is sound.
14:12:00 <Wayne> William: Historically there are lots of examples, but they are hard to find.
14:12:28 <Wayne> Judy: Develop site that is clear and usable.
14:12:54 <Wayne> Helle: What is the starting point?  Are we starting from scratch?
14:13:32 <Wayne> Judy: There are three from before, but they are not ready to go.  It is pretty rough.
14:16:25 <Wayne> Judy: Like an EO document, introduction (context), references,..bad site, model analysis, mini retrofitting plan, a fixed site.
14:18:04 <Wayne> William: Same set of pages and same appearance.  Should it be improved apearance:
14:18:48 <Wayne> Helle: We must not mix up accessible and usable.
14:19:39 <Wayne> ???: The idea is to fix accessibility without changing the sight.
14:20:15 <Wayne> Liam: Site has one good view and several bad looks.  
14:20:36 <judy> s/liam/barry
14:20:45 <Wayne> Helle: doen't that mean that the intended appearance should stay the same
14:21:07 <shawn> s/???/Barry
14:21:13 <shawn> ?
14:21:32 <Wayne> Barry: I think we agree
14:21:42 <shawn> s/Liam: Site has/Barry: Site has
14:22:19 <shawn> s/???: The/?Eric: The
14:24:53 <emmajane> zakim, unmute me
14:24:53 <Zakim> emmajane should no longer be muted
14:26:17 <Wayne> Judy: Bad site, evaluation of site (clear about what is needed), mini plan, new site
14:26:43 <Wayne> Wayne: probably need some alternative views. (wish list)
14:26:53 <shadi> q+
14:26:58 <shadi> q- barry
14:27:58 <emmajane> q+
14:29:10 <emmajane> heh
14:29:32 <shadi> q-
14:29:36 <Wayne> Shadi: Bad html means invalid and misused. Main focus should not be how people experience a site.
14:29:37 <shadi> ack emmajane
14:31:25 <Wayne> Emma: Should not miss some alternative views like color blindness,...
14:31:48 <Wayne> Judy: focus on one good site, followed by links to other sites.
14:31:50 <Andrew> Andrew: or contrast issues (often age related)
14:33:51 <Wayne> Eric: We have a group to work on bad and good pages.
14:36:14 <emmajane> wayne: and also the fact that we shouldn't imply that graphic design changes should _not_ be required to make a site accessible as graphic changes can often mean more people will be required to make the fixes.
14:36:51 <emmajane> erm. triple negatives....
14:37:03 <emmajane> graphic design changes != required
14:37:33 <Wayne> emma, I got it
14:37:38 <emmajane> thanks
14:37:54 <Zakim> -Doyle_Saylor
14:37:55 <Zakim> -Barry
14:37:55 <Zakim> -Jack
14:37:56 <Zakim> -Helle_Bjarno
14:37:58 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:37:59 <Zakim> -Judy
14:38:01 <Zakim> -Loughborough
14:38:03 <Zakim> -Sylvie_Duchateau
14:38:04 <Zakim> -emmajane
14:38:06 <Zakim> -Bingham
14:38:16 <shawn> topic: highlight heading re-wording
14:38:16 <shawn> (after end of official call :)
14:38:16 <shawn> from discussion: judy "authoring tool not clear...." andrew: "as is catches the target audience"
14:38:16 <shawn> 1. Blog, Wiki, CMS... Got ATAG?
14:38:16 <shawn> 2. Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...
14:38:17 <shawn> pros of 2: adds authoring tools. think "got atag" nicer up front.
14:38:19 <shawn> cons of 2: "blog, wiki, cms" lower & might lost, and that's who & what we're trying to catch with this one
14:38:19 <Zakim> -Liam
14:38:26 <Zakim> -Henk
14:38:31 <Zakim> -Pasquale
14:38:50 <Zakim> -Wayne
14:39:00 <Justin> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ut3/
14:39:05 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
14:39:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shawn, Justin, Andrew
14:39:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see shadi, JackW, barry, pasquale, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, judy, emmajane, Andrew, shawn
14:39:17 <shawn> Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...
14:39:34 <emmajane> Shawn: I agree with Andrew that the terms will catch the attention of the right people/interested people. And then the content of the section will hopefully expand on the title for those that don't know the terms.
14:39:40 <shawn> Blog, Wiki, CMS... Got ATAG?
14:40:37 <shawn> Got ATAG? Authoring Tools, Blog, Wiki, CMS...
14:41:14 <shawn> Got ATAG? Blog, Wiki, CMS...
14:41:15 <emmajane> "Got ATAG? [Complicance] for your Authoring Tool"
14:41:29 <shawn> emmajane - can you join call?
14:41:37 <emmajane> on the phone?
14:41:41 <emmajane> d'oh. I just hung up. :)
14:41:44 <shawn> yes. same #
14:41:53 <emmajane> I'll call back in. Sorry. :)
14:43:00 <shawn> Blogs, Wikis, CMS... Got ATAG?
14:43:23 <emmajane> it won't let me back in :(
14:43:36 <emmajane> it says it's restricted.
14:43:46 <Justin> http://www.got-milk.com/index.html
14:44:02 <shawn> emma - we're almost fone
14:44:09 <shawn> s/fone/done
14:44:19 <emmajane> It says the code isn't valid anymore.
14:44:50 <emmajane> That'll teach me for next time. ;)
14:50:17 <Zakim> -Shawn
14:50:23 <Zakim> -Andrew
14:50:25 <shawn> emmajane, we don't usually do this. :-)
14:50:28 <Zakim> -Justin
14:50:29 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:50:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Doyle_Saylor, Loughborough, Shadi, Shawn, Justin, Wayne, Henk, Liam, Bingham, Jack, Judy, Barry, Pasquale, +1.416.531.aaaa, Andrew, Helle_Bjarno, Sylvie_Duchateau,
14:50:33 <Zakim> ... emmajane
14:50:52 <shawn> rrsagnet, make logs world
14:50:57 <shawn> rrsagent, make logs world
14:51:05 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:51:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/17-eo-minutes.html shawn
14:51:16 <emmajane> shawn: stay and chat after you mean?
14:51:29 <shawn> right - dont' usually stay on the line after the call.
14:51:57 <shawn> well, not everyone :)
14:52:32 <Andrew> it's often worth waiting an extra minute or wor - just in case
14:53:12 <shawn> sometimes you get to hear an interesting bit :)
14:53:38 <emmajane> that's when all the gossip happens, eh?
14:53:41 <shawn> also, joining a few mins early to chat about the weather or news or vacations or such :)
14:54:18 <Andrew> i must be missing something - don't find much gossip
14:54:18 <emmajane> shawn: I met up with Laurie Harrison on Wednesday. She said she used to be part of this group and says hello.
14:54:43 <shawn> hum... must have been before my time... or my memory is really bad :/
14:54:53 <Andrew> hey - say hello from Andrew and Brian in Melbourne next time
14:54:54 <shawn> no, not much gossip
14:55:04 <shawn> ok, off to other stuff
14:55:07 <emmajane> I think she remembered your name. She used to be at Uni of Toronto with Jutta Trevoranus (sp?)
14:55:10 <shawn> have a great wkend.
14:55:29 <Andrew> and I've got to call london (uk that is, not ontario)
14:55:39 <Andrew> goodnight
14:55:42 <emmajane> night!
14:55:48 <shawn> shawn has left #eo
16:18:19 <shawn> shawn has joined #eo
16:22:54 <pasquale> pasquale has joined #eo
16:23:04 <pasquale> hi shawn
16:23:12 <shawn> hi!
16:23:45 <shawn> can i call you?
16:23:54 <shawn> zakim, bye
16:23:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eo
16:23:57 <shawn> rrsagent, bye
16:23:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items