IRC log of dawg on 2005-06-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:28:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc
14:28:15 [ericP]
zakim, this will be DAWG
14:28:15 [Zakim]
ok, ericP, I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM already started
14:28:17 [DaveB]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:28:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P29
14:28:23 [DaveB]
Zakim, ??P29 is DaveB
14:28:23 [Zakim]
+DaveB; got it
14:28:27 [Zakim]
+??P30
14:28:31 [Zakim]
-DaveB
14:28:31 [ericP]
Meeting: DAWG
14:28:32 [Zakim]
+DaveB
14:28:40 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P30n is AndyS
14:28:40 [Zakim]
sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named '??P30n'
14:28:41 [ericP]
Chair: DaveB
14:28:49 [ericP]
who's scribe?
14:28:50 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P30 is AndyS
14:28:50 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:28:52 [DaveB]
kendall
14:28:55 [Zakim]
+HowardK
14:29:37 [Zakim]
+EricP
14:29:42 [Zakim]
+??P31
14:29:53 [DaveB]
Zakim, agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
14:29:55 [HiroyukiS]
Zakim, ??P31 is HiroyukiS
14:29:56 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
14:29:58 [Zakim]
+HiroyukiS; got it
14:30:00 [Zakim]
+??P33
14:30:05 [DaveB]
Zakim, agenda + Next f2f?
14:30:05 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
14:30:10 [Zakim]
+Kendall_Clark
14:30:11 [DaveB]
Zakim, agenda + Last call for SPARQL QL
14:30:12 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
14:30:17 [DaveB]
Zakim, agenda + FILTER()
14:30:17 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
14:30:21 [ericP]
win go 20
14:30:31 [jeen]
Zakim, ??P33 is jeen
14:30:31 [Zakim]
+jeen; got it
14:30:57 [ericP]
agenday request: grammar
14:31:36 [DaveB]
Zakim, agenda + yacker grammer
14:31:36 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
14:31:52 [DaveB]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:31:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DaveB]
14:31:59 [kendall]
ericp: is there "another" grammar from which the grammar in the spec is generated?
14:32:12 [kendall]
i was looking for some text to cut and paste w/out all the production numbers and such :>
14:32:31 [DaveB]
I saw "Regrets from JanneS, Yoshio, patH tentative regrets: DanC, SteveH"
14:32:37 [DaveB]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:32:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DaveB, AndyS, HowardK, EricP, HiroyukiS, jeen, Kendall_Clark
14:32:38 [ericP]
kendall, http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/sparqlTest/bnf?lang=perl
14:32:49 [kendall]
ah, excellent. thx eric.
14:32:59 [ericP]
kendall, but it's not generatd from that
14:33:19 [kendall]
(we seem to have a quorom :>)
14:33:21 [AndyS]
KC: It's produced by a perl (!) script from javacc. Can take and tailor the perl script
14:33:36 [Zakim]
+??P37
14:33:38 [AndyS]
Could produce text if you need
14:33:42 [kendall]
hmm, okay. no biggie. i'm using antlr to genereate a python parser (:>)
14:33:54 [DaveB]
minutes was http://www.w3.org/2005/06/07-dawg-irc
14:33:56 [kendall]
+HiroyukiS
14:33:56 [DaveB]
for last week
14:34:02 [kendall]
erp :>
14:34:59 [kendall]
2 requests for "more human readable" minutes from last week's meeting
14:35:06 [kendall]
(er, at least 2 requests)
14:35:20 [kendall]
so, formally, minutes from last week's meeting not accepted today
14:35:44 [kendall]
ACTION: DanC To produce a more humanly readable version of last week's meeting minutes
14:35:51 [kendall]
CONTINUE other actions from agenda
14:35:57 [DaveB]
Zakim, take up item 2
14:35:58 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Next f2f?" taken up [from DaveB]
14:36:23 [AndyS]
Can fly Newark <-> Bristol nowadays
14:36:28 [kendall]
Nice :>
14:36:32 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:36:56 [kendall]
Jeen on holiday from 4 August to 8 August
14:37:06 [kendall]
EricP on holiday during August
14:37:11 [AndyS]
AndyS:Not week of August 15
14:37:19 [kendall]
KendallC also on holiday in Houston for some 7 week period during August
14:37:20 [Zakim]
+JosD
14:37:30 [ericP]
my vacation is roughly the same dates as Jeen
14:37:40 [kendall]
(Append attendees: +Jos)
14:39:12 [kendall]
AndyS notes that cancelling a scheduled f2f is easier than slipping one in at the last minute)
14:39:43 [AndyS]
VLDB: Aug 30 - Sept 2
14:39:44 [kendall]
Souri also attending
14:39:49 [kendall]
(sorry, I missed you too)
14:39:57 [kendall]
er, he's not on IRC :>
14:40:01 [kendall]
+Souri
14:40:20 [DaveB]
Zakim, who's on the call?
14:40:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DaveB, AndyS, HowardK, EricP, HiroyukiS, jeen, Kendall_Clark, Souri, JosD
14:40:37 [DaveB]
Zakim, take up item 3
14:40:37 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Last call for SPARQL QL" taken up [from DaveB]
14:40:39 [DaveB]
Zakim, take up item 4
14:40:39 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "FILTER()" taken up [from DaveB]
14:40:52 [DaveB]
re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0338.html
14:40:57 [DaveB]
and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0341.html
14:41:08 [kendall]
Request to put brackets around FILTER (is that right?)
14:41:14 [kendall]
re: some ambiguities in the grammar
14:41:23 [kendall]
this change affects tests we've already approved
14:41:29 [kendall]
er, this change *would* affect them
14:41:49 [kendall]
DaveB in favor of the change
14:41:52 [AndyS]
Example: "{ FILTER q:name() :a :b }"
14:42:14 [kendall]
+q to ask about "compliance" (sorry!)
14:42:21 [kendall]
q+ to ask about "compliance" (sorry!)
14:42:56 [DaveB]
q-
14:43:17 [kendall]
DaveB would rather have "brackets everywhere", doesn't like the special cases
14:43:29 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/sparqlTest?lang=perl&markup=html#prod-sparqlTest-Query
14:43:29 [kendall]
AndyS thinks regex will be commonly used
14:43:48 [ericP]
the above link is how i solved it
14:44:00 [ericP]
(in the sparql grammar)
14:45:21 [DaveB]
discussion of regex in python, seems it has a perl5 compat regex library
14:46:01 [kendall]
(eek, sorry, badly scribing AND misleading the discussion!)
14:46:28 [kendall]
Jeen: doesn't like the special cases either
14:46:56 [kendall]
All the builtin functions are allowed w/out the outer brackets
14:47:09 [kendall]
Proposal: All the builtin functions are allowed w/out the outer brackets
14:47:26 [DaveB]
with FILTER
14:47:29 [kendall]
Proposal: All the builtin functions are allowed w/out the outer brackets with FILTER
14:47:46 [kendall]
Where all the builtin functions is...
14:47:46 [AndyS]
'STR' '(' Expression ')'
14:47:46 [AndyS]
| 'LANG' '(' Expression ')'
14:47:46 [AndyS]
| 'DATATYPE' '(' Expression ')'
14:47:46 [AndyS]
| RegexExpression
14:47:46 [AndyS]
| 'BOUND' '(' Var ')'
14:47:46 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/sparqlTest?lang=perl&markup=html#prod-sparqlTest-Query
14:47:47 [AndyS]
| 'isURI' '(' Expression ')'
14:47:49 [AndyS]
| 'isBLANK' '(' Expression ')'
14:47:51 [AndyS]
| 'isLITERAL' '(' Expression ')'
14:47:58 [kendall]
(thanks andy!)
14:48:19 [AndyS]
"{ FILTER q:name() :a :b }"
14:48:43 [ericP]
{ FILTER (q:name()) :a :b }
14:49:35 [kendall]
AndyS: can also use an explicit syntax for function calls
14:49:36 [AndyS]
&q:name()
14:50:09 [kendall]
I hate it. :>
14:50:27 [DaveB]
it makes q:name and () - empty list, different from &q:name() function call
14:50:35 [AndyS]
Separate function call and q:name as constant value
14:51:25 [kendall]
Proposal2: To adopt an explict syntax for function calls (which makes q:name and () empty list separate from &q:name() function call)
14:51:40 [kendall]
Jeen doesn't like it
14:52:08 [kendall]
Straw poll: proposal 1, proposal 2, neither
14:53:11 [kendall]
(we rely too much on people being on irc. :>)
14:54:11 [DaveB]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:54:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DaveB, AndyS, HowardK, EricP, HiroyukiS, jeen, Kendall_Clark, Souri, JosD
14:54:34 [kendall]
JosD: don't really care
14:54:45 [kendall]
Souri: don't really care
14:54:59 [kendall]
Kendall: proposal1+, proposal2-
14:55:15 [kendall]
Souri: proposal1+, proposal2-neutral
14:55:30 [kendall]
Jeen: prop1+, prop2-
14:55:42 [kendall]
Hiroyuki: prop2-mild pref
14:55:47 [kendall]
EricP: mild for p2
14:55:54 [kendall]
Howard: prop2-
14:56:05 [kendall]
AndyS: p1+, p2-
14:56:18 [kendall]
DaveB: p2 mild pref, but doesn't care much
14:57:39 [kendall]
Editors are encouraged to take the straw poll as advice from the WG
14:57:45 [howardk]
i'll talk louder jeen!
14:57:47 [jeen]
:)
14:57:49 [DaveB]
Zakim, take up item 5
14:57:49 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "yacker grammer" taken up [from DaveB]
14:58:04 [kendall]
yacker grammar, even :>
14:58:34 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/sparqlTest?lang=perl&markup=html#prod-sparqlTest-Query
14:58:38 [kendall]
(/me not scribing this very closely...)
14:58:50 [DaveB]
eric epxlaining what yacker does
14:58:58 [DaveB]
had trouble using javacc grammar
14:59:05 [DaveB]
machine generated something that can validate sparql
14:59:39 [kendall]
Issue seems to be whether there is a link in the spec to more than one grammar
14:59:49 [kendall]
Editorial disagreement put to the WG (yes?)
15:00:11 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/sparqlTest/bnf?lang=perl
15:00:48 [kendall]
AndyS prefers to reccomend one, rather than >1 grammars
15:01:26 [kendall]
Jeen: can we add an informative link to other grammar, but only one normative grammar
15:01:35 [kendall]
?
15:03:36 [kendall]
Very confusing, Eric.
15:04:30 [jeen]
EricP wants to add both grammars to WD, let users 'vote' on which should be in Rec.
15:06:30 [kendall]
I'm confused: is the point to help yacc users, to have 2 grammars, or both?
15:06:36 [kendall]
these are v. diff!
15:11:14 [kendall]
Souri: do these 2 grammars describe exactly the same language?
15:11:18 [kendall]
Andy: No.
15:11:35 [kendall]
Kendall: I want you guys as editors to pick one and recommend it. Period.
15:12:23 [kendall]
Souri: Doesn't mind 2 grammars, minds 2 languages
15:13:10 [DaveB]
Zakim, take up item 3
15:13:10 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Last call for SPARQL QL" taken up [from DaveB]
15:13:35 [kendall]
other grammar proposal w/drawn
15:13:59 [DaveB]
andy's action done re rq23 unionqu decision
15:14:04 [kendall]
Eric: is caught up or will be soon
15:14:16 [kendall]
Andy has a comment from DanC and one from teh comments list pending
15:14:33 [kendall]
There are some markup issues
15:15:45 [DaveB]
andys said - need to sync with xmlres namespace when it gets a datespace one
15:17:06 [kendall]
Most of the pending stuff seems a matter of small edits
15:17:39 [DaveB]
reviewer SH regrets for today
15:17:45 [DaveB]
KC - nothing hold up for last call
15:18:09 [DaveB]
JB - mostly editorial, seem addressed
15:18:13 [kendall]
JB: comments mostly editorial, all of which seem to have been addressed. Pretty much happy.
15:18:55 [kendall]
SteveH: possible issue re: precision of ints & decimals...
15:19:03 [kendall]
er, this is via EricP's recollection
15:20:02 [kendall]
We don't know for certain Steve's review of the doc's status
15:20:28 [ericP]
last of the @@s removed from section 11
15:20:59 [kendall]
Discussion of creating a namespace URI for the results bindings format
15:21:39 [kendall]
rq23 mentions this namespace, so it needs to be an acceptable one
15:23:56 [kendall]
Gathering advice about LC timing...
15:24:12 [kendall]
Andy: wants there to be a period during which all 3 docs are LC simultaneously
15:24:19 [kendall]
DaveB: seems okay w/ that
15:25:16 [DaveB]
kc - would like overlap to be a month
15:25:20 [DaveB]
and protocol to have a longer lc
15:25:40 [DaveB]
kc - lc period for query should be subsantial, 2-3 mths
15:25:49 [DaveB]
and think protocol can go to lc in the next month
15:26:24 [DaveB]
... queyr is clean, good but complex. seen buyin from rdql users, impl but not from other parts of community
15:27:15 [kendall]
I'd like to see a 10 to 12 week LC period for the query doc, with at least 4 weeks of simultaneous LC for all 3 docs.
15:27:33 [DaveB]
Revision 1.395 2005/06/14 15:19:37 eric
15:27:34 [DaveB]
got rid of last @@s in section 11
15:27:36 [kendall]
Proposed: to publish rq23 (1.395) as a LC doc
15:27:51 [kendall]
Proposed: to publish rq23 (1.395), addressing FILTER and minor editorial changes, as a LC doc
15:31:31 [kendall]
KC, JosD volunteer to review (after the 17th for KC)
15:32:30 [kendall]
Proposed: to publish rq23 (1.395), addressing FILTER and 3 editorial changes, with KC & JosD reviewing these changes post 1.395, as a LC doc
15:34:39 [kendall]
publish: UMD, Bristol, HP, Agfa, NT&T, Howard the K, JeenB, W3C, (Souri in spirit!)
15:34:49 [kendall]
opposed: ()
15:34:53 [kendall]
abstains: ()
15:35:03 [kendall]
RESOLVED, go to last call for sparql ql
15:35:04 [kendall]
yay
15:36:06 [kendall]
Action AndyS: revise rq23 per fromUnionQuery decision
15:36:09 [kendall]
FINISHED
15:36:28 [kendall]
ACTION: ericp arrange publication
15:36:36 [kendall]
Jeen to scribe, DanC to chair meeting next Tuesday
15:36:50 [kendall]
ACTION: ericp work w/ danc on SOTD and LC
15:36:59 [kendall]
ACTION: danc message to chairs (?)
15:37:11 [kendall]
ACTION: AndyS editorial changes to rq23
15:37:25 [kendall]
ACTION: KendallC to review post 1.395 doc
15:37:34 [kendall]
ACTION: JosD to review post 1.395 doc
15:37:40 [kendall]
did I get them all?
15:37:57 [kendall]
(er, some of those may want to be combined...)
15:38:07 [Zakim]
-Kendall_Clark
15:38:08 [Zakim]
-JosD
15:38:10 [Zakim]
-Souri
15:38:11 [Zakim]
-DaveB
15:38:13 [Zakim]
-HowardK
15:38:15 [Zakim]
-HiroyukiS
15:38:15 [DanC_mtg]
I'm not available next tuesday. I said as much in email.
15:38:16 [Zakim]
-EricP
15:38:16 [DaveB]
meeting over
15:38:47 [DaveB]
DanC_mtg: oops...
15:39:05 [DanC_mtg]
oh well... if there's energy for meeting next week, I can find a chair again
15:40:40 [DaveB]
ericP can you drive Zakim or RRSagent to print agendas and make irc logs public?
15:40:46 [DaveB]
s/agendas/actions/
15:41:10 [Zakim]
-jeen
15:42:50 [DanC_mtg]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:42:58 [DanC_mtg]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:42:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-minutes.html DanC_mtg
15:45:57 [DaveB]
DaveB has joined #dawg
15:48:18 [DaveB]
Zakim, please show the actions
15:48:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please show the actions', DaveB
15:48:26 [DaveB]
RRSAgent: please show the actions
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items:
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC To produce a more humanly readable version of last week's meeting minutes [1]
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T14-35-44
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS to revise rq23 per fromUnionQuery decision [2]
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-06
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericp arrange publication [3]
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-28
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericp work w/ danc on SOTD and LC [4]
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-50
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: danc message to chairs (?) [5]
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-59
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS editorial changes to rq23 [6]
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-37-11
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KendallC to review post 1.395 doc [7]
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-37-25
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JosD to review post 1.395 doc [8]
15:48:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-37-34
15:49:14 [DaveB]
RRSAgent: please make logs public
15:49:18 [DaveB]
RRSAgent: please leave us
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items:
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC To produce a more humanly readable version of last week's meeting minutes [1]
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T14-35-44
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS to revise rq23 per fromUnionQuery decision [2]
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-06
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericp arrange publication [3]
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-28
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericp work w/ danc on SOTD and LC [4]
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-50
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: danc message to chairs (?) [5]
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-59
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS editorial changes to rq23 [6]
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-37-11
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KendallC to review post 1.395 doc [7]
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-37-25
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JosD to review post 1.395 doc [8]
15:49:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/14-dawg-irc#T15-37-34