IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-06-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:57:00 [RRSAgent]
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06:57:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to
06:57:07 [wendy]
06:57:10 [wendy]
ack w
07:04:27 [Yvette]
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07:06:25 [wendy]
Topic: overview of the day
07:07:43 [wendy]
greg describes "punch list" and that the goal of today is to create a list of what needs to be checked off before we can go to last call - what is the list of issues we need to address before we can go to last call.
07:08:24 [wendy]
our next public draft will be as near to what we expect to publish as a last call *plus* a punch list.
07:09:38 [wendy]
go through document top to bottom. want to capture all of the issues that someone here has or that someone else (not here) has. don't want to debate if they are issues or not - collect them.
07:10:00 [wendy]
by end of day have a list of issues (our "punch list") and tomorrow we'll work on proposals to address as many of those as we can.
07:11:03 [ben]
updated internal draft:
07:12:53 [wendy]
tomorrow: subgroups come back with a list of 1. accessibility issues that the SC/GL addresses 2. what are the assumptions being made 3. proposed wording (if any) to resolve the issues
07:14:52 [Andi]
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07:14:53 [Becky]
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07:14:55 [wendy]
to this point we've cleaned up most of what we agree on, next we have to address the points where we have debate (i.e., survey results of 5-5 or 9-4)
07:15:56 [wendy]
3 work products coming out of these 2 days: 1. the list of unresolved issues for SC and GL 2. where possible produce proposals that resolve the issues, do that (to go to the group for review next week) 3. where unable to reach resolution, have the basis for editorial notes for the next WD
07:16:57 [wendy]
an editor's note becomes a succinct statement of the issue (or basis for proposal for solution) around a SC that can tell the community what is unresolved and why and to get input about how to resolve.
07:18:25 [Michael]
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07:20:23 [wendy]
resolution: close all of the general issues (in the survey) except the one on plain language (1175).
07:25:16 [Makoto]
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07:26:46 [wendy]
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07:27:16 [wendy]
Topic: Guideline 1.1
07:27:35 [Yvette]
Current WD:
07:27:35 [wendy]
1.1 survey:
07:29:30 [wendy]
07:34:20 [wendy]
guideline 1.1 discussion at the 09 June 2005 telecon -
07:36:30 [wendy]
scribe: wendy
07:37:45 [wendy]
resolution: no issues with the guideline text (that we're aware of)
07:50:10 [wendy]
resolution: switch the order of SC1 and SC2 (order becomes: convey info followed by functional)
07:57:23 [wendy]
scribe note - capturing questions for discussion in separate html document. only capturing resolutions, actions, here.
08:07:08 [wendy]
resolution: L1 SC3 - For non-text content that is intended to create a specific sensory experience text alternatives at least identify the non-text content with a descriptive label. With a definition of "specific sensory experience."
08:09:01 [wendy]
resolution: L1 SC4 - Non-text content that is not functional, is not used to convey information, and does not create a specific sensory experience is implemented such that it can be ignored by assistive technology. With definitions of functional, convey information, specfiic sensory experience.
08:39:12 [wendy]
resolution: L1 SC6 For live audio-only or live video-only content, text alternatives at least identify the purpose of the content with a descriptive label. Note: Refer to Guideline 1.2 for guidance on content that combines live audio and video. [With defns of live audio-only and live video-only content OR (include examples below AND directly associate the examples with the SC).]
08:43:30 [wendy]
resolution: L3 SC1 - For prerecorded multimedia content, a combined transcript of captions and audio descriptions of video is available.
08:59:21 [wendy]
scribe: Yvette
08:59:27 [wendy]
Topic: Guideline 1.2
09:04:04 [Yvette]
Resolution: keep guideline text as "Provide synchronized alternatives for multimedia." without adding word 'content'
09:09:13 [Zakim]
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09:11:28 [Yvette]
Resolution: L1 SC1 Prerecorded multimedia has captions
09:24:58 [Christophe]
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09:28:53 [ben]
note that above resolution was invalidated with additional discussion (multiple issues for future discussion on this)
09:31:21 [wendy]
old form of 1.2 - - rebroadcast was an "exception" and many comments about it being exception and to move to its own criterion.
09:36:19 [Yvette]
Resolution: Delete 1.2 L1 SC3
09:37:48 [Yvette]
rationale: it is a subset of the other requirements at L1. Any exceptions are already covered by the existing ednote that will be discussed.
09:57:24 [wendy]
proposed wording for guideline text: Ensure that the perception of structure and function of the web content do
09:57:33 [wendy]
not depend on the presentation
10:07:26 [Yvette]
no resolution yet, will discuss tomorrow
10:28:37 [Yvette]
Resolution: Not add proposed L2 SC1 "Only markup languages and technologies that enable separation of structure, presentation, and behaviour are used."
11:13:14 [Becky]
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11:15:22 [Andi]
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11:17:52 [Michael]
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11:21:15 [Makoto]
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11:21:33 [Christophe]
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11:22:54 [wendy]
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11:23:13 [wendy]
Topic: Guideline 1.4
11:24:01 [Yvette]
Resolution: keep 1.4 as is
11:24:15 [wendy]
resolution: Adopt guideline 1.4 as it is in the current draft.
11:24:24 [wendy]
Topic: Guideline 2.1
11:24:41 [wendy]
results of survey:
11:29:54 [Becky]
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11:30:03 [Becky]
scribe: becky
11:34:02 [Becky]
discussion on GL 2.1
11:34:59 [wendy]
functional Performs or is able to perform an action in response to user input. If multiple actions are possible, then refer to definition of applet and scripting.
11:35:31 [wendy]
forget that definition
11:36:49 [Becky]
Resolution: adopt text for GL 2.1 as "Make all functionality operable via a keyboard interface"
11:55:34 [wendy]
Proposed wording for a L1 criterion for guideline 2.1: The states and values of contents that can be changed via the user interface can also be changed programmatically. (coming from the guideline 4.2 work)
11:56:14 [wendy]
12:13:25 [Becky]
resolution: delete GL 2.1 L2 SC1
12:14:53 [Becky]
reason is because this is covered by L1 SC1. This is actually a possible tech (depending upon technology) for satisfying L1 SC1.
12:17:50 [wendy]
counter proposal for wording for L3SCx: Keyboard shortcuts are provided for frequently-used functionality.
12:26:41 [Becky]
resolution: not accept the new L3 SC proposal (Provide single-key bindings to frequently-used functionality.)
12:27:12 [wendy]
(where "single-key bindings" is used to mean "keyboard shortcuts")
12:27:31 [Becky]
resolution: cover keyboard shortcuts in advisory material
12:30:00 [Becky]
resolution: not accept the new L3 SC proposal (All of the functionality of the content is operable through voice commands.)
12:48:08 [Michael]
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12:48:12 [ben]
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12:48:21 [wendy]
Topic: guideline 2.2
12:48:29 [wendy]
minutes from 26 may 2005 telecon:
12:48:33 [wendy]
scribe: Michael
12:49:02 [wendy]
2.2 survey results -
12:57:53 [Michael]
Topic: Guideline 2.3
12:59:07 [Michael]
resolution: delete ednote under L3 SC1 - will go in guide doc if it goes anywhere
13:02:05 [ben]
(ednote referenced free tool from Trace)
13:02:26 [Michael]
quote of the day: "There are not international standards for this, there are standards which are used internationally." -GV
13:02:32 [Yvette]
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13:08:14 [wendy]
action: gv rewrite 2.3 and associated defintions
13:09:37 [Michael]
Topic: Guideline 2.4
13:09:42 [wendy]
survey results -
13:11:38 [Michael]
action: Yvette, Michael, John define "navigational features" for
13:14:40 [Michael]
resolution: delete note and ednote to L1 SC1 re overlap with 1.3
13:42:55 [Michael]
resolution: remove ednote for L2 SC2; becomes a general techniques issue
13:47:52 [wendy]
from last week's discussion: concern about proposals. not ready to adopt. need more discussion. Proposed wording Level 2 SC 4: For each programmatic reference to another delivery unit, a title or description of that delivery unit can be programatically determined. and Should we move current level 3 SC3 to Level 2 SC 3: Delivery units have descriptive titles?
14:04:08 [Michael]
resolution: adopt moving L3 SC2 to L2 (becomes SC 3) - with issue of what we intend for "delivery units" still open
14:29:09 [wendy]
Topic: Guideline 2.5
14:29:28 [wendy]
we've adopted wording for the guideline and that there are no level 1 criteria.
14:40:18 [Michael]
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14:53:35 [wendy]
Resolution: G2.5 L2 SC3 - For forms that cause legal or financial transactions to occur, that modify or delete data in remote data storage systems, or that submit test responses, at least one of the following is true:
14:53:37 [wendy]
a. Actions are reversible.
14:53:38 [wendy]
b. Actions are checked for errors before going on to the next step in the process.
14:53:40 [wendy]
c. The user is able to review and confirm or correct information before submitting it.
14:53:42 [wendy]
[with clarification in techniques that you don't need to check for *all* possible errors.]
15:05:46 [wendy]
Resolution: remove guideline 2.1 Level 3 SC 2: If there are more than 75 choices, selection lists must not be the only means of providing the input choice. Another input method, such as a text entry field, text typing... [because it is a usability problem for everyone and usually, if it's that long of a list can navigate it alphabetically and press a letter key to get to it or near it quickly.]
15:08:48 [Andi]
15:09:56 [Andi]
1. When user input is limited to a set of 10 or fewer known choices that
15:09:56 [Andi]
15:09:56 [Andi]
be provided without jeopardizing security or purpose, choices can be
15:09:56 [Andi]
selected from a list instead of, or in addition to, typing.
15:10:11 [wendy]
above is proposal for l3 sc 1
15:13:03 [wendy]
current text: Where text entry is required for which there is a known set of less than 75 valid choices and they can be provided without jeopardizing security or purpose, users are allowed to select from a list of options as well as to type the data directly.
15:21:34 [wendy]
Resolution: (replaces previous resolution that was misrecorded) don't accept the proposed text (previously proposed for 2.5 and then proposed to move to 2.1): If there are more than 75 choices, selection lists must not be the only means of providing the input choice. Another input method, such as a text entry field, text typing... [because it is a usability problem for everyone and usually,...
15:21:35 [wendy]
...if it's that long of a list can navigate it alphabetically and press a letter key to get to it or near it quickly.]
15:23:23 [joeclark]
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15:35:21 [wendy]
resolution: adopt Proposed wording for 2.5 Level 3 SC3: Additional context relevant assistance is available for text input. [this replaces the existing 2 level 3 criteria which move to techniques]
15:35:47 [wendy]
scribe: andi
15:42:12 [Andi]
3.2 Proposal Survey Results
15:42:49 [wendy]
16:11:33 [Andi]
resolution: Accepted accepted for GL 3.2 Level 1 SC 1 - "Any extreme change of context is implemented in a manner that can be programmatically determined." with the proviso that we re-write the definition of "extreme change of context"
16:13:12 [wendy]
resolution: delete from the benfits of guideline 3.2 "Using captions to note changes in speaker is beneficial for individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing and who may be unable to discern changes in speaker for audio-only presentations."
16:15:24 [gregg]
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16:16:06 [Michael]
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16:31:55 [Andi]
resolution: Proposal accepted for GL 3.2 level 2 SC: Components that are repeated on a set of delivery units occur in the same sequence each time they are repeated.
16:33:33 [wendy]
michael counter proposal for L2SC2 - Any component that can receive focus does not automatically activate when focus is received.
16:34:26 [wendy]
for this one or last one?
16:38:23 [Andi]
"for at least one presentation format" removed because it is addressed in conformance.
16:41:21 [Andi]
Discussion: should this be Level 3? Resolution wording fixes this.
16:43:19 [Andi]
resolution: Proposal accepted for GL 3.2 Level 2 SC 2 - When any component receives focus it does not cause an extreme change in context.
16:44:01 [wendy]
current wording/proposed - Changing the setting of any input field should not automatically cause an extreme change in context
16:44:10 [wendy]
that for l2sc3
16:46:41 [Andi]
resolution: Proposal accepted for GL 3.2 Level 2 SC 3 - Changing the setting of any input field does not automatically cause an extreme change in context.
16:48:29 [wendy]
Interactive content that appears in multiple delivered units within the same context is associated with similar functionality wherever it appears.
16:48:42 [wendy]
16:49:07 [wendy]
above is a counter proposal to, 'Interactive content that appears in multiple delivered units is associated with similar functionality wherever it appears.'
16:58:12 [Andi]
resolution: Proposal accepted for GL 3.2 Level 2 SC 4 - Functional components that are repeated on a set of delivery units provide similar functionality wherever they appear.
17:17:24 [Andi]
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17:17:28 [Andi]
resolution: Delete GL 3.2 Level 2 SC 6 (The destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that either occur in the link or can be programmatically determined.) and combine the comcepts with the proposal for GL 2.4 Level 2 SC 4.
17:21:54 [Christophe]
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17:22:40 [Makoto]
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17:45:31 [Andi]
resolution: Proposal accepted to delete GL 3.2 Level 3 SC 2 (Components that appear visually on multiple pages, such as navigation bars, search forms, and sections within the main content, are displayed in the same location relative to other content on every page or screen where they appear.) and include it appropriately in techniques.
17:46:40 [Andi]
resolution: Delete GL 3.2 Level 3 SC 3 (When components such as navigation menus and search forms appear on multiple pages, users can choose to have those elements presented in a different visual position or reading-order.)
17:57:19 [Andi]
resolution: Move GL 3.2 Level 3 SC 5 (When content is arranged in a sequence that affects its meaning, that sequence can be determined programmatically.) to 1.3 because using correct semantics fixes this problem. Is there another success criteria that addresses this?
17:58:24 [Andi]
resolution: delete two editorial notes for GL 3.2 Level 3 SC