IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-06-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:46:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
18:46:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/09-wai-wcag-irc
18:47:14 [wendy]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0706.html
18:47:25 [wendy]
agenda+ Agenda review and announcements (5 minutes)
18:47:33 [wendy]
agenda+ Techniques Task Force (5 minutes)
18:47:57 [Yvette]
Yvette has joined #wai-wcag
18:48:05 [Yvette]
Hello everyone
18:48:07 [wendy]
agenda+ GL 2.4 (25 minutes) [http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/navigation-mechanisms20050531/results]
18:48:28 [wendy]
agenda+ GL 2.1 (25 minutes) [http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/keyboardop20050607/results]
18:49:02 [wendy]
agenda+ GL 1.1 (25 minutes) [http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/textequiv20050607/results]
18:49:08 [rellero]
rellero has joined #wai-wcag
18:49:16 [rellero]
Hi
18:49:23 [wendy]
agenda+ GL 1.4 (25 minutes) [http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/contrast20050608/results]
18:49:48 [wendy]
agenda+ General Issues (25 minutes) http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/genclose20050608/results
18:50:03 [rscano]
hi Yvette
18:50:16 [wendy]
agenda+ Conformance Issues (25 minutes) [http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/conf20050608/results]
18:50:25 [wendy]
agenda+ GL 4.2
18:50:32 [wendy]
agenda+ F2F preparation and comments
18:50:44 [Yvette]
Hi Robertos :-)
18:50:59 [rellero]
Ciao
18:51:51 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG weekly telecon
18:53:15 [wendy]
regrets: Roberto Castaldo
18:53:34 [jslatin]
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18:53:37 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
18:56:16 [jslatin]
Hi, all.
18:56:21 [rscano]
hi John
18:56:32 [jslatin]
How are you, Roberto? Thanks for your work on GL 2.1.
18:56:37 [Sebastiano]
Sebastiano has joined #wai-wcag
18:56:44 [rscano]
well thanks, writing my second accessibility book :)
18:57:08 [jslatin]
Your *second* one? Wow.
18:57:58 [rscano]
yep, first one was the first book in 4 format (4-in-one): paper, xhtml 1.0, tagged pdf and microsoft reader (all in one unique edition) :)
18:58:15 [Sebastiano]
zakim, who's here?
18:58:15 [Zakim]
sorry, Sebastiano, I don't know what conference this is
18:58:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Sebastiano, Michael, jslatin, rellero, Yvette, RRSAgent, Zakim, bengt, rscano, wendy, ben
18:58:31 [rellero]
ciao seb
18:59:26 [Sebastiano]
ciao Rob :)
18:59:33 [Yvette]
congraz on your second book RS
18:59:50 [ben_]
ben_ has joined #wai-wcag
18:59:53 [Sebastiano]
I'm back...
18:59:57 [Yvette]
b
18:59:58 [Yvette]
wb
19:00:38 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has now started
19:00:41 [Zakim]
+Wendy
19:00:49 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has joined #wai-wcag
19:01:00 [rcastaldo]
Hi everybody :)
19:01:11 [rcastaldo]
Ciao italians :)
19:01:14 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow_Weaver
19:01:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aaaa - is perhaps Bengt_Farre
19:01:28 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink
19:01:31 [Yvette]
Ciao Roberto#3
19:01:36 [rcastaldo]
:D
19:01:46 [Andi]
Andi has joined #wai-wcag
19:01:46 [rcastaldo]
Ciao Yvette
19:01:48 [bengt]
who thinks he is me ?
19:01:50 [Zakim]
+??P7
19:02:01 [ben_]
zakim, ??P7 is Ben_and_Gregg
19:02:01 [Zakim]
+Ben_and_Gregg; got it
19:02:08 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
19:02:14 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
19:02:30 [rcastaldo]
I'm sorry, i wont be able to "hear" you... only irc tonight for me
19:02:37 [wendy]
zakim, who's here?
19:02:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bengt_Farre, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin
19:02:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Andi, rcastaldo, ben_, Sebastiano, Michael, jslatin, rellero, Yvette, RRSAgent, Zakim, bengt, rscano, wendy
19:02:42 [Yvette]
RCastaldo, did you get my mail?
19:02:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aabb - is perhaps Bengt_Farre
19:02:53 [Yvette]
it might be tough to follow on IRC because of the new minute-strategy
19:03:03 [rcastaldo]
No, Yvette..
19:03:12 [jslatin]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:03:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bengt_Farre, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Bengt_Farre
19:03:24 [wendy]
is one of the robertos on the phone?
19:03:46 [rscano]
i'm trying but said: passcode not valid
19:03:55 [rcastaldo]
It's not me
19:03:56 [Sebastiano]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:03:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bengt_Farre, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Bengt_Farre
19:04:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aacc - is perhaps Bengt_Farre
19:04:07 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
19:04:08 [Becky]
Becky has joined #wai-wcag
19:04:20 [bengt]
chg my other name while Im out
19:04:30 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:04:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bengt_Farre, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Bengt_Farre
19:04:34 [wendy]
zakim, mute Bengt
19:04:34 [Zakim]
'Bengt' is ambiguous, wendy
19:04:39 [jslatin]
lots of echo...
19:04:43 [bengt]
zakim, Bengt_Farre is really Sebastiano
19:04:43 [Zakim]
sorry, bengt, I do not recognize a party named 'Bengt_Farre'
19:04:47 [wendy]
zakim, drop Bengt
19:04:47 [Zakim]
'Bengt' is ambiguous, wendy
19:04:56 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
19:04:56 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
19:04:56 [Sebastiano]
zakim, mute me
19:04:57 [Zakim]
sorry, Sebastiano, I do not see a party named 'Sebastiano'
19:04:59 [wendy]
zakim, drop Bengt_Farre
19:04:59 [Zakim]
'Bengt_Farre' is ambiguous, wendy
19:05:01 [jslatin]
i think everyone should talk at once and we should record it for posterity
19:05:01 [rscano]
i think the second bengt_farre is me
19:05:10 [wendy]
rscano - can you drop please?
19:05:11 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
19:05:11 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
19:05:16 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
19:05:17 [bengt]
zakim, Bengt_Farre is really Sebastiano
19:05:18 [Zakim]
+Sebastiano; got it
19:05:25 [rscano]
ok
19:05:27 [rscano]
i will recall now
19:05:30 [wendy]
ok
19:05:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aadd - is perhaps Sebastiano
19:05:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aaee - is perhaps Sebastiano
19:05:52 [Sebastiano]
zakim, mute me
19:05:52 [Zakim]
'Sebastiano' is ambiguous, Sebastiano
19:06:00 [Zakim]
-Sebastiano
19:06:08 [jslatin]
echo echo cho o
19:06:15 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:06:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Sebastiano, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Sebastiano
19:06:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aaff - is perhaps Sebastiano
19:06:20 [bengt]
hmm, we are all going to be named the same :)
19:06:29 [rscano]
zakim, Sebastiano is Roberto_Scano
19:06:29 [Zakim]
sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named 'Sebastiano'
19:06:44 [Yvette]
and then there's three!
19:07:05 [rcastaldo]
:)
19:07:05 [Yvette]
Do we have three echos now?
19:07:09 [bengt]
zakim, Sebastian* is really dialpads
19:07:09 [Zakim]
sorry, bengt, I do not recognize a party named 'Sebastian*'
19:07:09 [rellero]
yes
19:07:14 [wendy]
zakim, who's here?
19:07:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Sebastiano, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Sebastiano, Sebastiano
19:07:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Becky, Andi, rcastaldo, ben_, Sebastiano, Michael, jslatin, rellero, Yvette, RRSAgent, Zakim, bengt, rscano, wendy
19:07:23 [rscano]
ok I hangup and i call when lines will be best :)
19:07:28 [rellero]
zakim, mute me
19:07:28 [Zakim]
sorry, rellero, I do not see a party named 'rellero'
19:07:35 [Zakim]
-Sebastiano
19:07:38 [Yvette]
RS, I will let you know on IRC when to rejoin
19:07:43 [rellero]
I am seb
19:07:45 [Zakim]
-Sebastiano
19:07:54 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:07:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Sebastiano, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin
19:08:00 [wendy]
zakim, Sebastiano is Bengt
19:08:00 [Zakim]
+Bengt; got it
19:08:08 [Zakim]
+Becky_Gibson
19:08:19 [bengt]
nope that was really sebastiano
19:08:32 [wendy]
zakim, Bengt is Sebastiano
19:08:32 [Zakim]
+Sebastiano; got it
19:08:42 [Zakim]
+??P14
19:08:58 [bengt]
zakim, ??P14 is Bengt_Farre
19:08:58 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
19:09:26 [bengt]
shut down dialpad software and start over again it will select a new number
19:09:32 [Zakim]
+Matt
19:09:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aagg - is perhaps Sebastiano
19:09:51 [rellero]
zakim, + +1.202.558.aagg is rellero
19:09:51 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+ +1.202.558.aagg is rellero', rellero
19:10:03 [Yvette]
zakim +1.202.558.aagg is rellero
19:10:07 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:10:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Sebastiano, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Bengt_Farre, Matt, Sebastiano
19:10:10 [Yvette]
zakim, +1.202.558.aagg is rellero
19:10:10 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette, I do not recognize a party named '+1.202.558.aagg'
19:10:26 [rellero]
:-I
19:10:43 [wendy]
please - no one else call in with dialpad.
19:10:48 [wendy]
it really confuses zakim.
19:11:09 [wendy]
roberto scano - when we get to 2.1 i'll ask either sebastiano or roberto ellero to hang up.
19:11:14 [wendy]
so that you can call in.
19:11:16 [rscano]
ok
19:11:22 [rellero]
zakim, 1.202.558.aagg is rellero
19:11:22 [Zakim]
sorry, rellero, I do not recognize a party named '1.202.558.aagg'
19:11:29 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 1
19:11:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Agenda review and announcements (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
19:11:33 [bengt]
can someone tell zakim managers that dialpad uses a trunk
19:12:42 [wendy]
bengt - if you have a summary of what you think the issue is, i can send it to our systeam. the more info, the better - to help them address the problem.
19:12:51 [bengt]
ok
19:13:59 [rellero]
rellero has left #wai-wcag
19:14:17 [wendy]
scribe: wendy
19:14:40 [rellero]
rellero has joined #wai-wcag
19:15:34 [wendy]
discussion about what we're minuting: wcag wg dialog rather than individual comments. focus on resolutions and actions.
19:15:46 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
19:15:46 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
19:15:52 [wendy]
zakim, take up next item
19:15:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Techniques Task Force (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
19:16:40 [wendy]
minutes from yesterday's telecon: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html
19:17:09 [wendy]
discussed - Review of SC with respect to Scripting and baseline, review of techniques related to guideline 1.3
19:17:15 [wendy]
plans for f2f
19:17:40 [gregg]
gregg has joined #wai-wcag
19:18:02 [wendy]
becky asks for input and feedback on post about scripting: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0680.html
19:18:22 [wendy]
please look at before F2F. becky prepping a proposal/draft for discussion next week.
19:18:51 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li
19:19:14 [wendy]
the previous draft doesn't include 2.4, if someone wants to tackle before next week.
19:19:17 [wendy]
zakim, next item
19:19:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "GL 2.4 (25 minutes)" taken up [from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/navigation-mechanisms20050531/results]
19:19:18 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
19:19:20 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
19:19:33 [wendy]
zakim, ping in 20 minutes
19:19:33 [Zakim]
ok, wendy
19:19:44 [wendy]
results of 2.4 survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/navigation-mechanisms20050531/results
19:19:58 [wendy]
Proposed wording Level 1 SC 1: Navigational features can be programmatically determined. 16 propose, 2 current
19:20:17 [wendy]
concern about "navigational features"
19:21:11 [wendy]
ack j
19:23:20 [wendy]
resolution: adopt proposed wording for Level 1 SC 1: Navigational features can be programmatically determined. with definition of "navigational features"
19:23:22 [mcmay]
mcmay has joined #wai-wcag
19:23:32 [wendy]
discussing - Proposed wording Level 2 SC 1: Multiple ways to locate specific content within a set of delivery units are available.
19:23:46 [wendy]
14 proposed, 4 current
19:24:56 [wendy]
issues - "specific content" and "more than one" vs "multiple"
19:25:45 [wendy]
q+
19:25:47 [wendy]
ack j
19:27:14 [wendy]
ack w
19:28:10 [wendy]
ack al
19:30:00 [wendy]
discussion of what was intended by "specific" content - in a sense it is "content that is desired by the user" but didn't want to include user in the SC. all adjectives are likely to be subjective.
19:30:27 [wendy]
delete the word "specific"?
19:30:48 [wendy]
no one disagrees
19:32:02 [wendy]
resolution: adopt Proposed wording Level 2 SC 1: More than one way is available to locate content within a set of delivery units.
19:32:23 [wendy]
discussing - Proposed wording Level 2 SC 2: Blocks of material that are repeated on multiple perceivable units are implemented so that they can be bypassed.
19:32:51 [Yvette]
Or "A mechanism is provided to bypass blocks of material that are repeated on multiple perceivable units."?
19:33:12 [Yvette]
q+ to say "a mechanism is provided to bypass blocks of material that are repeated on multiple perceivable units"
19:33:21 [wendy]
16 proposed, 2 current
19:33:36 [wendy]
issues - editorial (wording), level
19:35:10 [Michael]
q+ to say I like the union of Ben and Wendy's comments, ending up with "Blocks of content that are repeated on multiple perceivable units can be bypassed by the user."
19:35:41 [wendy]
q+ "s/material/content
19:35:44 [wendy]
oops
19:35:52 [wendy]
q+ to say "s/material/content"
19:35:59 [wendy]
ack s/material
19:36:02 [Yvette]
ack "s
19:36:06 [wendy]
ack "s/m
19:36:17 [wendy]
ack yv
19:36:17 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "a mechanism is provided to bypass blocks of material that are repeated on multiple perceivable units"
19:37:03 [wendy]
ack mi
19:37:03 [Zakim]
Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say I like the union of Ben and Wendy's comments, ending up with "Blocks of content that are repeated on multiple perceivable units can be bypassed by
19:37:07 [Zakim]
... the user."
19:37:16 [wendy]
q-
19:38:08 [wendy]
discussion about author vs user agent responsibilities.
19:38:47 [Michael]
q+ to raise "perceivable" vs "delivery units" issue
19:38:50 [Andi]
q+
19:39:06 [wendy]
ack mi
19:39:06 [Zakim]
Michael_Cooper, you wanted to raise "perceivable" vs "delivery units" issue
19:39:29 [wendy]
ack an
19:39:33 [Zakim]
wendy, you asked to be pinged at this time
19:40:06 [wendy]
q+
19:40:48 [wendy]
ack w
19:42:59 [wendy]
resolution: adopt Proposed wording for Level 2 SC 2: Blocks of content that are repeated on multiple perceivable units are implemented so that they can be bypassed. [discuss perceivable unit vs delivery unit in guide doc]
19:44:37 [wendy]
discussing - Should we move current level 3 SC3 to Level 2 SC 3: Delivery units have descriptive titles?
19:44:54 [wendy]
12 yes (move), 5 no
19:45:29 [wendy]
js highlights that this is related to next item.
19:45:36 [wendy]
will treat together
19:45:56 [wendy]
(next item) - Proposed wording Level 2 SC 4: For each programmatic reference to another delivery unit, a title or description of that delivery unit can be programatically determined.
19:46:10 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
19:46:16 [wendy]
ack j
19:46:41 [Yvette]
q+ to say "navigation is of no use unless you know where you are and where you ended up"
19:46:53 [wendy]
discussion about importance of adding titles.
19:47:37 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
19:47:46 [wendy]
ack y
19:47:46 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "navigation is of no use unless you know where you are and where you ended up"
19:50:15 [wendy]
discussion about accessibility issue (vs usability issue) about knowing where you will navigate to.
19:53:15 [wendy]
concern about "description of that delivery unit" being required for every link.
19:53:38 [wendy]
clarification that this addressess "click here" issue
19:53:59 [wendy]
q+
19:54:16 [ben_]
q+
19:55:56 [wendy]
q-
19:56:06 [ben_]
q-
19:56:42 [Tim]
Tim has joined #wai-wcag
19:57:02 [wendy]
resolution: concern about proposals. not ready to adopt. need more discussion. Proposed wording Level 2 SC 4: For each programmatic reference to another delivery unit, a title or description of that delivery unit can be programatically determined. and Should we move current level 3 SC3 to Level 2 SC 3: Delivery units have descriptive titles? [pending]
19:57:32 [wendy]
discussing - Should we remove level 3 SC 1: When content is arranged in a sequence that affects its meaning, that sequence can be determined programmatically?
19:58:16 [wendy]
15 proposed, 1 current
20:00:15 [Zakim]
+Dave_MacDonald
20:00:24 [David]
David has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:01 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
20:01:04 [wendy]
resolution: adopt removing level 3 SC 1: When content is arranged in a sequence that affects its meaning, that sequence can be determined programmatically and move it to principle 3
20:01:19 [wendy]
discussing - Should we remove level 2 SC 1: Documents that have five or more section headings and are presented as a single delivery unit include a table of contents with links to important sections of the document.?
20:01:30 [wendy]
17 yes, 1 no
20:01:57 [wendy]
resolution: remove level 2 SC 1: Documents that have five or more section headings and are presented as a single delivery unit include a table of contents with links to important sections of the document.
20:02:10 [wendy]
discussing - Should we remove level 2 SC 1: Images have structure that users can access?
20:04:28 [wendy]
resolution: remove level 3 SC 3 about images having structure, level 3 SC 5 about dividing text into paragraphs and level 3 SC 6 about dividing documents into hierarchical sections and subsections because they are all techniques for the same thing: splitting up complex content into more manageable pieces.
20:05:27 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:05:27 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "GL 2.1 (25 minutes)" taken up [from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/keyboardop20050607/results]
20:05:29 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta
20:05:34 [rscano]
clap clap (textual transcription from here)
20:05:54 [wendy]
results from survey: they are all techniques for the same thing: splitting up complex content into more manageable pieces.
20:05:57 [wendy]
oops.
20:06:07 [wendy]
results from survey for 2.1: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/keyboardop20050607/results
20:06:30 [wendy]
q+
20:08:06 [wendy]
ack q
20:08:27 [wendy]
discussion about the split in comments, and the valuable feedback received.
20:08:34 [ben_]
ack w
20:08:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.224.aahh
20:08:53 [wendy]
plan to discuss this at the F2F to work new proposal.
20:09:18 [Yvette]
q+
20:09:36 [wendy]
zakim, +1.650.224.aahh is Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:09:36 [Zakim]
+Loretta_Guarino_Reid; got it
20:10:35 [Yvette]
q?
20:10:46 [wendy]
ack yv
20:12:54 [Yvette]
scribe: yvette
20:12:59 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:12:59 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "GL 1.1 (25 minutes)" taken up [from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/textequiv20050607/results]
20:14:56 [Yvette]
Straw polls: all proposals for lvl 1 SC 1 have people who don't want them
20:16:28 [Yvette]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:16:41 [Zakim]
Yvette, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (20%), John_Slatin (7%)
20:17:23 [wendy]
zakim, mute loretta
20:17:23 [Zakim]
Loretta_Guarino_Reid should now be muted
20:18:49 [Yvette]
q+ to say "not needed"
20:19:17 [wendy]
ack y
20:19:17 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "not needed"
20:20:22 [Yvette]
resolution to adopt proposed wording for L1 SC 4 "Non-text content that is not functional, is not used to convey information, and does not create a specific sensory experience is implemented such that it can be ignored by assistive technology."
20:21:50 [wendy]
friendly amendment: ASCII art consists of graphic representations created by a spatial arrangement of text characters (typically from the 95 printable characters defined by ASCII).
20:26:03 [Yvette]
discussion about ASCII art definition
20:27:40 [wendy]
ascii art - pictures created by a spatial arrangement of characters (typically from the 95 printable characters defined by ASCII).
20:28:07 [Yvette]
'a picture'
20:28:33 [Yvette]
resolution to accept as definition of ascii art: 'a picture created by a spatial arrangement of characters (typically from the 95 printable characters defined by ASCII).'
20:28:44 [Yvette]
on to definition of 'content'
20:29:15 [bengt]
possibly plural
20:30:09 [wendy]
css defn - The content associated with an element in the source document. Some elements have no content, in which case they are called empty. The content of an element may include text, and it may include a number of sub-elements, in which case the element is called the parent of those sub-elements.
20:30:18 [Yvette]
q+ to say "neither"
20:31:03 [wendy]
all w3c definitions of content - http://www.w3.org/2003/glossary/keyword/All/?keywords=content
20:31:55 [gregg]
ack y
20:31:55 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "neither"
20:31:59 [gregg]
ack j
20:32:00 [wendy]
ack j
20:32:13 [wendy]
q+
20:32:32 [gregg]
q+
20:32:34 [Yvette]
discussion about the fact that WCAG uses 'content' in broader definition than some authors might expect
20:33:38 [wendy]
wikipedia defn - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content
20:34:15 [Yvette]
Wendy looked at many definitions of content and fits with proposal
20:35:25 [bengt]
from wordnet: content, cognitive content, mental object -- (the sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned)
20:35:40 [gregg]
ack w
20:35:43 [gregg]
ack g
20:35:47 [Yvette]
resolution to adopt as definition of content: Information in the delivery unit that is used by the user agent to generate perceivable units. This includes the code and markup that define the structure, presentation, and interaction, as well as text, images, and sounds that convey information to the end-user.
20:36:48 [wendy]
all w3c defns of text: http://www.w3.org/2003/glossary/keyword/All/?keywords=text
20:36:48 [Yvette]
discussing definition of text
20:37:06 [Yvette]
q+ to say "repertoire"
20:38:00 [wendy]
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars.html#repertoire
20:38:47 [wendy]
http://www.byteshift.de/web-design-Unicode-vi+Repertoire
20:39:16 [wendy]
ack y
20:39:16 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "repertoire"
20:39:23 [Yvette]
Resolution to adopt as definition of text: "A sequence of characters. Characters are those included in the Unicode / ISO / IEC 106464 repertoire."
20:39:40 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:39:40 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "GL 1.4 (25 minutes)" taken up [from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/contrast20050608/results]
20:39:46 [Yvette]
'Repertoire' chosen because it is part of the Unicode definition
20:41:42 [Yvette]
q+ to say "also because it doesn't distract"
20:42:22 [wendy]
ack y
20:42:22 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "also because it doesn't distract"
20:44:06 [Andi]
q+
20:44:07 [Yvette]
q+
20:45:05 [David]
David has joined #wai-wcag
20:45:55 [rscano]
rscano has left #wai-wcag
20:45:56 [ben_]
adk Andi
20:46:00 [ben_]
ack Andi
20:46:03 [ben_]
ack Yvette
20:46:46 [ben_]
q+
20:47:13 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
20:47:22 [ben_]
q-
20:48:35 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
20:48:52 [ben]
ben has joined #wai-wcag
20:49:00 [David]
q+
20:49:16 [wendy]
ack mike
20:49:49 [Yvette]
discussion about whether covered by UAAG, but UAAG only requires the UA to allow users to turn off all audio, not just background
20:50:52 [wendy]
ack d
20:51:20 [gregg]
q+
20:51:22 [Yvette]
if background audio interferes with screen reader, how will the user be able to find the mechanism?
20:51:44 [Tim]
Tim has left #wai-wcag
20:52:21 [gregg]
ack g
20:52:23 [gregg]
ack a
20:53:40 [wendy]
UAAG checkpoint 3.2 - http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG/uaag10.html#tech-configure-multimedia
20:54:24 [wendy]
q+
20:54:55 [ben]
Implementation details for UAAG 3.2 - http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/wai-eval/reports.php?report_id=4 (this item is not well supported in browsers)
20:55:03 [wendy]
safari partial imp, opera partial imp, ie (almost complete) - http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/wai-eval/evals-cp.php?eval_id=11&cp_id=15
20:55:09 [David]
q+
20:55:18 [mcmay]
q+
20:55:22 [Yvette]
it seems it's only a problem if it's continuous audio, not if it stops automatically
20:55:29 [ben]
q+
20:56:09 [gregg]
q+
20:56:12 [wendy]
ack w
20:56:20 [mcmay]
1-
20:56:22 [mcmay]
q-
20:56:34 [wendy]
ack d
20:56:57 [wendy]
ack b
20:58:24 [Andi]
q+
20:58:37 [ben]
ack gregg
20:58:41 [gregg]
ack g
20:58:46 [wendy]
ack a
20:59:45 [Yvette]
discussion about whether or not to keep the benefit in the SC text
21:00:06 [Yvette]
pro keeping: explains why turning down volume is not an option
21:00:34 [Yvette]
con: belongs in benefits/guide
21:00:59 [Yvette]
Resolution to adopt as wording for L2 SC3: "A mechanism is available to turn off background audio that plays automatically"
21:01:14 [Andi]
Yvette, do you want me to scribe now?
21:01:36 [wendy]
scribe: Andi
21:01:45 [rcastaldo]
I have to leave the irc call... bye all
21:01:51 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag
21:01:56 [Andi]
action: David to research UA support of turning off background audio
21:02:24 [wendy]
s/Resolution to/resolution:
21:02:35 [Andi]
resolution: close 1320
21:04:16 [judy]
judy has joined #wai-wcag
21:04:58 [Zakim]
+Judy
21:06:04 [gregg]
q+
21:06:31 [Andi]
q+
21:07:03 [wendy]
ack g
21:07:10 [Andi]
q-
21:07:44 [Yvette]
q+ to say "google spam"
21:07:44 [mcmay]
q+
21:07:48 [Christophe]
Christophe has joined #wai-wcag
21:07:55 [mcmay]
q-
21:08:18 [Andi]
dicussion about white text on white background. We have no SC that would make that illegal. But this is not accessible to anyone.
21:08:30 [Andi]
so it is not an accessibility issue
21:08:33 [Zakim]
+Christophe_Strobbe
21:08:47 [wendy]
ack yv
21:08:47 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "google spam"
21:10:24 [Andi]
discussion about invisible text that is added to pages simply to improve search engine results. Sighted users don't see it but screen reader users do. This would need to be addressed under a different guideline however.
21:10:42 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:10:42 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:11:33 [gregg]
Q+
21:11:39 [gregg]
ACK J
21:12:00 [wendy]
q+ to say, "JIS 5.6.b) Font which is easy-to-read considering size and typeface should be specified."
21:12:03 [wendy]
ack g
21:13:30 [wendy]
q-
21:13:56 [wendy]
q+
21:14:45 [Andi]
can't resolve to close 1345 because don't have unanimous consent
21:16:26 [Andi]
there is another issue that addresses John's particular concern about text being perceivable so John agrees that we can close 1345
21:16:34 [Andi]
resolution: close 1345
21:17:14 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:17:14 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:17:14 [gregg]
ACK W
21:18:00 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:18:00 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:18:21 [Andi]
resolution: close 1372
21:18:44 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:18:44 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:19:13 [wendy]
action: john and michael take action to propose new criterion/guideline per issue 892 [http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=892]
21:20:25 [Andi]
discussion about whether or not we need GL 1.4 Level 1 SC 1 - other than images, there is no way to violate this. Images are covered by 1.1.
21:20:52 [ben]
q+
21:21:41 [wendy]
ack b
21:22:55 [wendy]
current wording of the note: Images of text that meets guideline 1.1 should satisfy this criterion. (Refer to Guideline 1.1 Provide text alternatives for all non-text content. )
21:23:16 [Andi]
ben clarifies that the person misunderstood the note
21:23:24 [wendy]
ben's proposal: Graphical presentations of text that meet guideline 1.1 satisfy this criterion. (Refer to Guideline 1.1 Provide text alternatives for all non-text content.)
21:24:45 [Andi]
and proposes a change to the note: Graphical presentations of text that meet guideline 1.1 satisfy this criterion. (Refer to Guideline 1.1 Provide text alternatives for all non-text content.)
21:26:05 [Andi]
discussion that this SC is about text and therefore does not apply to images of text so the note may be misleading
21:27:16 [Andi]
our definition of text means that you can never have "text" in an image. You can have graphical representations of text in an image.
21:28:13 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
21:28:39 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:28:39 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:29:09 [Andi]
proposal is to delete the note and close issue 1373
21:29:20 [Andi]
resolution: delete the note and close issue 1373
21:29:48 [Zakim]
-Judy
21:30:14 [Andi]
resolution: close 1374
21:30:21 [judy]
judy has left #wai-wcag
21:31:11 [Andi]
resolution: close 1375 but rationale is that it is duplicate 1345
21:31:26 [wendy]
s/duplicate/similar to
21:31:33 [Zakim]
-Sebastiano
21:31:47 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:31:47 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:33:18 [Andi]
resolution: close 1376
21:33:29 [Andi]
resolution: close 1377
21:34:28 [Andi]
Ben created a bug to remind us that we have to make sure David's techniques get into the techniques document
21:34:42 [wendy]
agenda+ surveys for today/tomorrow
21:35:13 [Andi]
resolution: close 1430 because it is out of scope
21:35:28 [Zakim]
-Sebastiano
21:35:38 [Andi]
resolution: close 1440 because it is out of scope
21:36:17 [Andi]
resolution: close 1081 because we have validated the criteria with experts
21:36:17 [wendy]
zakim, next item
21:36:17 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "General Issues (25 minutes) http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/genclose20050608/results" taken up [from wendy]
21:36:52 [wendy]
zakim, next item
21:36:52 [Zakim]
agendum 7 was just opened, wendy
21:37:00 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 9
21:37:00 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "GL 4.2" taken up [from wendy]
21:37:08 [wendy]
zakim, close item 9
21:37:08 [Zakim]
agendum 9 closed
21:37:09 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:37:10 [Zakim]
7. General Issues (25 minutes) http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/genclose20050608/results [from wendy]
21:37:13 [Yvette]
q+ to ask "agenda for f2f?"
21:37:15 [wendy]
zakim, close item 7
21:37:15 [Zakim]
agendum 7 closed
21:37:16 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:37:17 [Zakim]
8. Conformance Issues (25 minutes) [from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/conf20050608/results via wendy]
21:37:24 [wendy]
zakim, close item 8
21:37:24 [Zakim]
agendum 8 closed
21:37:25 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:37:26 [Zakim]
10. F2F preparation and comments [from wendy]
21:37:27 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:37:27 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette
21:37:30 [Andi]
chair opens discussion to concerns from those who will not be attending face to face meetings
21:37:35 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 10
21:37:35 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "F2F preparation and comments " taken up [from wendy]
21:38:18 [Andi]
David has concerns about general techniques - do general techniques and guide to the guidelines belong in the same document
21:38:32 [Yvette]
q-
21:38:38 [Andi]
David thinks they appeal to different audiences
21:38:52 [gregg]
Q+
21:39:02 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:39:02 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:39:06 [Andi]
David recommends two documents - General Techniques and Guide to the Guidelines
21:39:26 [Yvette]
q+ to ask 'level 3'
21:39:28 [Andi]
Editors have reached the same conclusion and plan for two documents
21:42:11 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:42:11 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:42:25 [Yvette]
q?
21:42:29 [wendy]
q+ to say "additional surveys"
21:42:46 [Andi]
discussion about communication between face to face attendees and members of the WG who cannot attend
21:43:51 [Andi]
in the past, we have had difficulty trying to include those who are not there via phone and IRC.
21:44:36 [Andi]
This time, we will not set up a phone bridge. The room will have wireless Internet connection for up to 15 people.
21:44:55 [Andi]
We will capture resolutions, decisions, action items, and important discussion in IRC.
21:45:25 [Andi]
At the end of each day, we will post a summary of the day's discussion to the mailing list.
21:45:41 [wendy]
s/who are not there/who are trying to participate
21:45:53 [Andi]
Next day, we will do our best to address comments posted to the list.
21:47:03 [Andi]
At next working group teleconference on 23 June, we will recap the face to face meeting for everyone who was unable to attend.
21:47:45 [Yvette]
q?
21:48:42 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:48:42 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette
21:48:52 [wendy]
ack w
21:48:52 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "additional surveys"
21:49:57 [Andi]
Additional surveys will be available today and tomorrow for proposals on 3.1, 2.5, 4.1, info gathering for 4.2, and maybe 1.2 and 3.2
21:50:38 [Andi]
Need to have the survey responses in by end of the day Friday. Wendy will be printing one copy and taking to the face to face meeting.
21:51:40 [Andi]
Expect another set of surveys beginning of the week of the 20th and discussing at the meeting on the 23rd of June.
21:51:57 [Andi]
Expect draft available on June 30th.
21:53:08 [David]
I can do it
21:53:46 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:53:46 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette
21:55:18 [Yvette]
q?
21:55:23 [wendy]
ack yv
21:55:23 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to ask 'level 3'
21:55:28 [gregg]
ack g
21:56:19 [Andi]
concern that there is nothing on the agenda to discuss "elephants" such as whether or not we will have "Level 3 Conformance"
21:56:28 [wendy]
q+
21:57:00 [Andi]
Chairs think it is on the agenda.
21:57:26 [Andi]
Primary goal for this face to face is to close as many issues as we can before the draft comes out.
21:58:07 [Andi]
Concern that Level 3 conformance could eat up time that we could potentially use to close lots of issues.
21:58:17 [Yvette]
q=
21:58:19 [Andi]
600 issues still to close
21:58:19 [Yvette]
q)
21:58:23 [Yvette]
q+
21:58:29 [wendy]
q-
22:01:13 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
22:01:16 [Yvette]
??
22:01:24 [wendy]
q+ to say " proposes a survey for level 3issues"
22:01:27 [wendy]
ack y
22:01:48 [Andi]
Level 3 conformance will be on the agenda but we will have to limit the time we discuss it.
22:02:14 [Yvette]
I can't get back in because the conference is restricted
22:02:40 [Yvette]
It cut me off at exactly 3:00 hours into the call
22:02:53 [Zakim]
-Mike_Barta
22:03:02 [bengt]
what service ? are you using ?
22:03:07 [Yvette]
regular phone line
22:03:41 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li
22:03:57 [Andi]
Create a survey of Level 3 issues. Need to develop the proposals before we do the survey.
22:04:01 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink
22:04:14 [Yvette]
Had to use the operator :-)
22:04:21 [bengt]
sneaky
22:04:55 [Yvette]
who is coming to Brussels?
22:05:25 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:05:28 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
22:05:30 [Zakim]
-Dave_MacDonald
22:05:34 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
22:05:34 [Andi]
Andi has left #wai-wcag
22:05:36 [Zakim]
-Matt
22:05:37 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
22:05:38 [Zakim]
-Wendy
22:05:38 [Zakim]
-Ben_and_Gregg
22:05:39 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow_Weaver
22:05:43 [Zakim]
-Christophe_Strobbe
22:05:45 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
22:05:46 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has ended
22:05:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, +1.202.558.aaaa, Yvette_Hoitink, Ben_and_Gregg, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, +1.202.558.aabb, +1.202.558.aacc, +1.202.558.aadd,
22:05:51 [Zakim]
... +1.202.558.aaee, +1.202.558.aaff, Becky_Gibson, Sebastiano, Bengt_Farre, Matt, +1.202.558.aagg, Alex_Li, Dave_MacDonald, Mike_Barta, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Judy,
22:05:53 [Zakim]
... Christophe_Strobbe
22:06:16 [bengt]
bengt has left #wai-wcag
22:06:17 [Yvette]
Ben, you can see the results for that questionaire? I can only see my own answers
22:08:38 [wendy]
yvette - results of registration are at: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag200506/results
22:08:48 [wendy]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:08:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/09-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:08:51 [mcmay]
mcmay has left #wai-wcag
22:09:17 [ben]
ben has left #wai-wcag
22:10:14 [Christophe]
I'm not allowed to see the results of this questionnaire (http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag200506/results).
22:14:33 [Christophe]
Christophe has left #wai-wcag
22:18:55 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
22:19:39 [wendy]
ah. right. the default permissions for registration forms are member-only.
22:19:43 [wendy]
zakim, bye
22:19:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:19:45 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
22:19:45 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items:
22:19:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: David to research UA support of turning off background audio [1]
22:19:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/09-wai-wcag-irc#T21-01-56
22:19:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john and michael take action to propose new criterion/guideline per issue 892 [http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=892] [2]
22:19:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/09-wai-wcag-irc#T21-19-13