IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-06-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:53 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:59:57 [Michael]
rrsagent, make log world
14:00:03 [ben]
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14:00:13 [Michael]
agenda+ Scribe class [] [] []
14:00:24 [Michael]
agenda+ Review of SC with respect to Scripting and baseline []
14:00:29 [David]
14:00:34 [Michael]
agenda+ Continue review of 1.3 []
14:00:42 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
14:00:44 [Michael]
agenda+ Continue review of 2.4 []
14:00:49 [Zakim]
14:00:55 [Michael]
agenda+ Continue review of 4.2 []
14:00:59 [wendy]
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14:01:11 [Zakim]
14:01:14 [Zakim]
14:01:15 [Zakim]
14:01:17 [Michael]
14:01:21 [Michael]
chair: Michael Cooper
14:01:22 [Zakim]
14:01:38 [Zakim]
14:01:42 [Zakim]
14:01:44 [ben]
zakim, ??P17 is Ben
14:01:44 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
14:01:49 [Zakim]
14:01:50 [Becky]
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14:01:55 [Zakim]
14:02:31 [Zakim]
14:02:42 [Zakim]
14:02:48 [Michael]
zakim, ??P11 is Chris_Ridpath
14:02:48 [Zakim]
+Chris_Ridpath; got it
14:04:51 [wendy]
14:06:04 [Michael]
regrets: Tim_Boland
14:06:24 [wendy]
regrets+ Christophe
14:08:05 [wendy]
14:08:26 [wendy]
action: name task
14:08:33 [wendy]
resolution: text of resl
14:08:35 [DonFEvans]
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14:09:12 [wendy]
discussing: Proposed wording Level 1 SC3: A measure of the education level required to read the content is available.
14:10:13 [wendy]
14:10:43 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Scribe class [] []" taken up [from
14:10:45 [Zakim]
... via Michael]
14:11:07 [jslatin]
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14:11:32 [jslatin]
14:11:46 [jslatin]
14:12:34 [wendy]
scribe: wendy
14:12:56 [wendy]
chair: michael
14:13:18 [wendy]
regrets+ testing-so
14:13:30 [wendy]
meeting: TTF weekly telecon
14:13:41 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
14:13:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate wendy
14:14:23 [wendy]
that's all fkols
14:14:23 [wendy]
14:16:50 [Zakim]
14:17:26 [wendy]
zakim, who's here?
14:17:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, Dave_MacDonald, Wendy, Ben, Matt, Don_Evans, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin
14:17:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jslatin, DonFEvans, wendy, ben, RRSAgent, Zakim, Michael, mcmay, ChrisR, David
14:19:52 [wendy]
zakim, next item
14:19:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review of SC with respect to Scripting and baseline" taken up [from]
14:28:32 [wendy]
discussion about major points from review. there are many SC that don't apply to scripting/widgets. questions about scripts that couldn't make accessible.
14:28:54 [wendy]
1.4, 4.1, and 3.2 seem to be most effected by scripting.
14:28:55 [wendy]
with 3.2, if scripting is part of baseline, there is more to do.
14:31:10 [wendy]
categories of things to think about for writing script techniques: 1. script accessible 2. providing fallbacks 3. advisory 4. things that are easier in scripts than not in scripts
14:34:58 [leasa]
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14:35:03 [Becky]
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14:35:24 [Zakim]
14:37:19 [wendy]
base baseline (w/out scripts) use "unobtrusive javascript" (in a separate file. html works w/out it), although legacy javascript is not written this way.
14:37:38 [wendy]
s/base baseline/one idea for base baseline
14:44:59 [wendy]
can we recommend a javascript baseline that doesn't require fallbacks?
14:45:15 [wendy]
believe that is one of the options we'll explain, otherwise some web application won't work.
14:45:38 [wendy]
do we document javascript fallbacks at all? is that in the base baseline?
14:45:42 [ben]
14:46:08 [wendy]
feeling from several thatwe do need to document fallbacks?
14:46:11 [wendy]
14:48:16 [Michael]
ack ben
14:48:16 [wendy]
ack ben
14:49:57 [wendy]
even in a higher technology baseline does there need to be at least info in a form that is compatible with the most basic baseline for the user to determine what is there?
14:50:11 [wendy]
e.g., "this app uses javascript, turn it on or go home"
14:50:30 [wendy]
question relates to guideline 1.1 always requiring a label and 4.2 requiring a fallback
14:51:10 [wendy]
how does that work with the model where javascript is independent of the html
14:55:33 [wendy]
discussion of differences betwen SC and techniques and how baseline fits into them.
14:55:33 [wendy]
SC are what to do, Techs are how to do it.
14:55:40 [wendy]
baseline is what technologies are used.
14:56:27 [wendy]
for a tech not in your baseline, replicate the functionality w/something in your baseline. w/scripts have noted that not all functions can be replicated. therefore, provide a label that we can't replicate. is that where we're going?
14:56:43 [wendy]
does that become a huge loophole? "i can't replicate...therefore, too bad for you"
15:00:36 [wendy]
a label could describes the overall effect of the javascript(s), not each one script.
15:05:30 [wendy]
lisa - if you use a tech that is not accessible, then you can't conform.
15:05:44 [jslatin]
lisa, sorry but we can't do commenting both on phone and in IRC...
15:07:16 [wendy]
discussion about intranet site and what would be required - even need label? yes, b/c if have an issue can contact IT dept.
15:08:10 [wendy]
2 baselines: accessible scripting/enhanced access (2 approaches in one baseline), fallback/no script
15:08:57 [wendy]
15:09:10 [wendy]
ack q
15:09:16 [Michael]
ack wendy
15:19:47 [wendy]
action: wendy, matt and becky discuss what to prep for F2F wrt scripting
15:20:03 [Zakim]
15:22:53 [wendy]
zakim, next item
15:22:53 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Continue review of 1.3" taken up [from]
15:23:29 [wendy]
discussing - 6. Margins
15:23:48 [wendy]
ack j
15:24:26 [wendy]
might map to proposed new SC about making text legible
15:24:33 [wendy]
in absense of, perhaps advisory,, 3.1?
15:26:02 [wendy]
instead of tech about   can use spacing to create readability and then say don't use  
15:27:26 [wendy]
resolution: for now map to advisory for 3.1, update the tech to include info about why not a good idea (b/c the space will grow as font grows). may map to new SC about readable text.
15:28:26 [wendy]
discussing - 7. Creating layout, positioning, layering, and alignment
15:31:08 [wendy]
resolution: delete reference to issue 308 in tech 5.2
15:34:46 [wendy]
resolution: delete technique 5.2 - because it is covered by 9.4 Spacing letters and words and techs about absolute positioning.
15:35:11 [wendy]
discussing - 8. Positioning (float, position)
15:35:18 [wendy]
15:37:28 [wendy]
isn't this covered by -
15:37:45 [wendy]
do we need to discuss each property (or group of properties) or the effect of combining them?
15:42:33 [wendy]
talk about positioning that covers several css properties, perhaps compare with html tables.
15:44:51 [wendy]
resolution: delete 5.3 Positioning (float, position) and do more work on 13.1 and other techniques that talk about positioning, using css w/scripting, etc.
15:45:21 [wendy]
discussing - 9. Providing additional structural information
15:45:43 [wendy]
6.2 Providing additional structural information -
15:49:49 [wendy]
Issue 253: should we add a cautionary note about the potential misuses of CSS generated text?
15:50:02 [wendy]
yes - concern about generated content
15:50:37 [Zakim]
15:58:28 [wendy]
resolution: 6.2 optional. map it to 3.1. if a SC is created about highlighting structure, map it to that. add example for exposing longdesc attribute.
16:03:10 [Zakim]
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16:03:16 [Zakim]
16:03:17 [ChrisR]
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16:03:18 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:03:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were Dave_MacDonald, Wendy, Matt, Ben, Don_Evans, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Chris_Ridpath
16:03:21 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
16:03:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate wendy
16:06:03 [wendy]
Meeting: TTF weekly telecon
16:06:11 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
16:06:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate wendy
16:14:52 [leasa]
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17:19:25 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
17:19:25 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items:
17:19:25 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: name task [1]
17:19:25 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:19:25 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy, matt and becky discuss what to prep for F2F wrt scripting [2]
17:19:25 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:19:27 [wendy]
zakim, bye
17:19:27 [Zakim]
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