14:30:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:30:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/07-dawg-irc
14:31:06 <DaveB> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:31:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see PatH, ??P19, ??P20
14:31:07 <Zakim> +Kendall_Clark
14:31:08 <Zakim> +DanC
14:31:08 <patH> DaN, YES BUT NOT TIL TONIGHT OR TOMOROW.
14:31:13 <DaveB> Zakim, ??P19 is DaveB
14:31:13 <Zakim> +DaveB; got it
14:31:14 <AndyS> ??P20 is AndyS
14:31:20 <AndyS> zakim, ??P20 is AndyS
14:31:20 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:31:21 <DanC> a day or two is fine, pat
14:31:27 <patH> OK
14:31:44 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access 7 Jun. scribe: PatH http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/
14:31:51 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:31:51 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:31:53 <Zakim> +??P24
14:31:55 <Zakim> +EricP
14:32:02 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
14:32:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0333.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:32:06 <kendall> It will make the sound of pending extinction :<
14:32:09 <DanC> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:32:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see PatH, DaveB, AndyS, Kendall_Clark (muted), DanC, ??P24, EricP
14:32:17 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:32:17 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:32:54 <Zakim> +Jeen_Broekstra
14:33:01 <DanC> Regrets: Howard, Yoshio Fukushige
14:33:34 <JanneS> JanneS has joined #dawg
14:33:36 <Yoshio> Yoshio is on IRC
14:34:16 <DanC> Zakim, ??P24 is JanneS
14:34:16 <Zakim> +JanneS; got it
14:34:41 <kendall> sorry I generally avoid talking about politics, but mentioning Friedman -- who never met an official ass he wouldn't kiss -- is provocation too much! :>
14:34:48 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:34:48 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/07-dawg-irc#T14-34-48
14:34:53 <SteveH> DanC, sorry, phone sortage, skyping asap
14:34:59 <DanC> roger
14:35:28 <DanC> PROPSED: to accept http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-dawg-irc as a true record
14:35:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:35:47 <DanC> Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH
14:35:47 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:35:49 <SteveH> Zakim, mute me
14:35:49 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
14:35:55 <DanC> so RESOLVED.
14:36:20 <SteveH> I rrobably cant make 14 june
14:36:24 <SteveH> *probably
14:36:39 <DanC> agenda + next meeting
14:36:49 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:36:49 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:37:02 <patH> I will have to miss 14th also.
14:37:37 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:37:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "issue wsdlAbstractProtocol" taken up [from DanC]
14:37:59 <DanC> my suggestion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0335.html
14:38:13 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:38:13 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:38:30 <patH> Kendall knows what it says.
14:38:38 <kendall> oh, don't scribe that. :>
14:38:43 <patH> :)
14:39:41 <kendall> I don't understand the motivation to avoid the union, frankly. Certainly not at the cost of doubling the number of operations. Or, if Jeen is right, trebling them. :>
14:41:34 <DanC> splitting? 3ish
14:41:44 <DaveB> hmm, if I get my QueryAndTransform interface, does that 2x it again?
14:41:45 <patH> Eric+Dan+jeanne like splitting
14:42:04 <ericP> +maybe daveb, iirc
14:42:15 <DaveB> I'm moving to neutral really
14:42:16 <patH> Thanx, jeen
14:43:44 <patH> jeen: aligns with our implementation, will send info
14:44:41 <patH> DanC: Yes, Kendall, issue is abstract, editor's call
14:45:09 <DaveB> q+
14:45:40 <kendall> well, my point  about "code smell" is that it *could* be not entirely arbitrary, in which case we should know that.
14:46:41 <DaveB> q-
14:47:53 <kendall> I have too FWIW
14:48:02 <patH> DaveB worries about number of operations, Kendall agrees? but isnt worried. XSLT is considered but nobody cares too much.
14:49:49 <DanC> PROPOSED: to close wsdlAbstractProtocol ala http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-protocol/ 1.51 2005/06/06 18:35:00 , i.e. one interface, one operation; HTTP keywords query, default-graph-uri, named-graph-uri
14:49:54 <patH> kendall: design tries to look like ordinary Web service
14:49:56 <ericP> +1 to KendallC
14:50:49 <patH> DanC: close discussion; DaveB Second; no obj; DaveB abstains
14:50:49 <DanC> RESOLVED, DaveB Jeen, SteveH abstaining
14:51:16 <AndyS> The WSDL XML is broken apparently (http://swig.xmlhack.com/)
14:51:40 <kendall> AndyS: there's a bare "&". oops.  I've fixed it in my draft.
14:51:54 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:51:54 <Zakim> agendum 3. "issue: fromUnionQuery" taken up [from DanC]
14:51:56 <AndyS> OK - just so it does not get lost.
14:52:01 <kendall> no, i saw it.
14:52:03 <kendall> thx
14:52:27 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 4
14:52:27 <Zakim> agendum 4. "issue valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]
14:52:56 <DanC> section http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#tests 1.373 $ of $Date: 2005/06/07 16:25:52 $
14:53:16 <kendall> (oh, i forgot to mention that I have to leave by 11:45 my time; i.e., 75 minutes total)
14:53:17 <DaveB> Yoshio: we skipped it till later
14:53:20 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
14:53:20 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
14:53:28 <Yoshio> thanks
14:53:30 <kendall> till later in the telcon, i think :>
14:54:12 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ValueTesting/
14:54:37 <DanC> SH: not too happy about NaN being false. and ""
14:54:37 <DaveB> SteveH some things are false, such as NaN values
14:54:37 <SteveH> ""@fr is false
14:54:41 <patH> Steve not happy with some parts, empty strings
14:55:31 <patH> with lang tags
14:56:37 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ValueTesting/extendedType-eq-pass.rq
14:56:48 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ValueTesting/extendedType-ne-fail.rq
14:57:18 <kendall> Are we under attack?
14:57:26 <patH> Dan might be.
14:58:05 <DaveB> (near table 11.2 a broken link, the "Xquery F&O Primitive...[17]" link is 4040 )
14:59:06 <kendall> I'm behind on this issue, FWIW.
14:59:12 <kendall> er, FYI
14:59:29 <ericP> 	loc:location [ r:type loc:geodetic ;
14:59:29 <ericP> 		loc:rotational "30.300000"^^loc:latitude ;
14:59:37 <ericP> 	loc:location [ r:type loc:EarthCenteredEarthFixed ;
14:59:37 <ericP> 		loc:rotational "-7420507.1"^^loc:ECEF_X ;
14:59:55 <patH> some values neither = not =/=
15:00:09 <patH> not/nor
15:01:06 <patH> DaveB: solution is given, so?
15:01:18 <DaveB> ^- AndyS
15:01:28 <patH> Ta. 
15:02:31 <patH> The example is puzzling all round. 
15:02:45 <DanC> PROPOSED: to address valueTesting ala http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#tests 1.373 2005/06/06 14:45:18 and http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ValueTesting/extendedType-ne-fail.rq
15:03:02 <DanC> (approval of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ValueTesting/extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 not for now)
15:03:07 <DaveB> seems extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 needs fixing
15:03:17 <DaveB> should be identical to extendedType-eq-fail-result.n3
15:03:22 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see PatH, DaveB, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, DanC, JanneS, EricP, Jeen_Broekstra, SteveH
15:04:34 <patH> AndyS likes to follow Xpath
15:06:35 <DanC> RESOLVED, KC, PatH abstaining
15:07:15 <DaveB> ericP: eq-pass has a typo - air: is not declared
15:07:41 <DanC> ACTION EricP: finish extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 test
15:07:53 <DaveB> ericP: also eq-fail!
15:08:26 <ericP> DaveB, roger
15:09:24 <SteveH> zakim, mute me
15:09:24 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
15:09:47 <DanC> AndyS notes IRI/URI stuff still TODO editorially in section 11
15:09:56 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:09:56 <Zakim> agendum 3. "issue: fromUnionQuery" taken up [from DanC]
15:10:42 <kendall> zakim, mute me
15:10:42 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:10:43 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
15:10:43 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:10:54 <kendall> (coughing fit,  sorry)
15:11:15 <patH> Lots of mail. DanC summarises: 2 designs, no 3 designs.
15:11:42 <ericP> DaveB, done -- tx
15:13:07 <patH> First 2 designs in ed. draft: is closure queried or lower bound? 
15:13:16 <DanC> "9 Specifying RDF Datasets" has "@@Add text to say that specifying the dataset overrides an service dataset."
15:13:41 <patH> 3rd design given in email, aggregate graph.
15:13:48 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/AggregateGraph
15:14:29 <patH> aggregate contains merge of named graphs.
15:15:39 <patH> All servers would have to do things right.
15:18:24 <patH> Yoshio, ignore that, I wasnt following the point. 
15:18:58 <DanC> OPTIONS: (a) without FROM/FROM_NAMED, dataset is unconstrained; with FROM/FROM_NAMED, dataset is bounded from below by given references. (b) like (a) but FROM/FROM named completely specify the dataset, (c) datasets have "aggregate graph" rather than background/default graph, and it always contains the merge of the named graphs
15:20:03 <patH> ericP: agg. graph design requires giving name to trusted source/graph
15:20:20 <kendall> (Clark's Conjecture: Semantic Web would *leap* ahead, as if by magic, if we could ban use of the word "trust".)
15:20:29 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:20:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see PatH, DaveB, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, DanC, JanneS, EricP, Jeen_Broekstra, SteveH (muted)
15:22:10 <Yoshio> Does aggregate graph start empty or certain default graph?
15:22:25 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
15:22:25 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
15:23:37 <patH> agg. graph always contains the 'default' graph in the datatset, the G in {G, <n1,G1>...}
15:23:41 <kendall> It may not matter, but I don't grok that claim, Dan.
15:24:06 <Yoshio> thanks pat
15:24:25 <DanC> SH: +agg -others
15:25:07 <DanC> JB: +a ... RDFS ...
15:25:30 <DanC> -b
15:25:50 <DanC> EP: +c, =a, =b
15:26:06 <DanC> JS: -b, =a, =c
15:26:12 <kendall> KC: +++a, object to b, don't understand c
15:26:42 <DanC> AS: +a, =b ...
15:26:55 <DanC> DB: +c =a =b
15:27:09 <DanC> PH: +a =b =c
15:28:27 <DanC> a and c seem to have no strong opposition; b is opposed by SH, JS, KC
15:28:42 <AndyS> The authors revised it: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2004/HPL-2004-57R1.html
15:28:43 <jeen> and by me as well
15:28:47 <JanneS> * I will leave irc but will continue by phone for 10 more mins.
15:28:54 <kendall> I heard Jeen oppose (b), I think.
15:28:55 <kendall> ah, yes
15:29:03 <DanC> b is opposed by several
15:29:12 <Yoshio> (T_T;)
15:29:29 <DanC> counting... c a c a a c a . 3-3 tie
15:30:14 <DanC> 3-4
15:31:16 <DaveB> I only saw 2x +c, me and eric, both =a =b
15:31:31 <jeen> Allow me to summarize: option c is basically a more constrained version of option a. A leaves it up to the implementation/publisher what is in the default graph. C requires that all named graphs are in the default graph (or aggregate graph as it is called there). correct?
15:31:54 <patH> Seems right, jeen.
15:32:14 <SteveH> jeen, thats a matter of perspective, in some ways a is more constrinaing
15:33:00 <patH> DaveB: RDFS wont work with c.
15:33:24 <DanC> (my understanding is that Steve's implementation does C and does RDFS)
15:33:25 <ericP> s/RDFS wont work with c/convince me that RDFS wont work with c/
15:33:27 <patH> jeen: aaargh.
15:33:34 <kendall> I oppose C, fwiw, because I think it should be entirely up to the provider of the graph to determine what goes in the graph. C, as I understand it, constrains the publisher of the graph with regard to what the publisher can, well, publish.
15:34:48 <ericP> KendallC, C says that the default query (with no GRAPH constraints) queries the merge of all the named graphs
15:34:51 <AndyS> Jeen: Fair summary
15:34:52 <DanC> (sounds like sesame is meets the constraints in C too)
15:35:24 <patH> DaveB: c not a, becasuz its simpler? 
15:35:56 <patH> jeen: yes, simpler; but issue concerns trust?
15:36:01 <kendall> not all inputs are equal
15:36:09 <SteveH> zakim, mute me
15:36:09 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
15:36:41 <patH> Enjoy dinner, Yoshio
15:36:55 <SteveH> can we cut the noise, I cant hear
15:37:22 <jeen> Zakim, mute me
15:37:22 <Zakim> Jeen_Broekstra should now be muted
15:37:30 <kendall> I don't think or claim that giving notice will change the outcome. I just care about the appearance of fairness.
15:37:32 <jeen> Zakim, unmute me
15:37:32 <Zakim> Jeen_Broekstra should no longer be muted
15:37:36 <kendall> zakim, mute me
15:37:36 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:37:36 <patH> Pat locally muted
15:37:37 <Zakim> -DanC
15:37:46 <Zakim> +DanC
15:37:46 <AndyS> zakim, mute me
15:37:48 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
15:37:52 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me
15:37:52 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
15:38:04 <kendall> It's the Voice of God commanding compliance with design A!
15:38:14 <jeen> :)
15:38:17 <kendall> But, as is typical with "the voice of god", it's damn ambiguous! :>
15:38:37 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
15:38:37 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:38:52 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
15:38:52 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
15:39:33 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:39:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see PatH, DaveB, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, DanC, JanneS (muted), EricP, Jeen_Broekstra, SteveH
15:40:41 <DanC> c a c a a c
15:40:53 <DanC> janne, got any advice/preference?
15:43:45 <patH> kendall: basically a web-social question of constraining what publishers do.
15:44:08 <kendall> a view I take, FWIW, precisely because of webarch.
15:44:57 <DanC> PROPOSED: to go option (a) without FROM/FROM_NAMED, dataset is unconstrained; with FROM/FROM_NAMED, dataset is bounded from below by given references.
15:45:07 <patH> Pat sees Kendalls point.
15:46:20 <kendall> procedurally i guess you only need one objection :>
15:46:21 <DanC> SH objects. abstaing: EricP, DaveB
15:46:30 <DanC> so RESOLVED.
15:47:02 <kendall> sarcasm has to be constrained somehow! :>
15:47:47 <DaveB> this closes fromUnionQuery?
15:48:11 <kendall> the devil is definitely the left side. well done, eric.
15:48:19 <DanC> ACTION AndyS: revise rq23 to suit fromUnionQuery design
15:48:32 <patH> Ive never been called a deep blue sea before.
15:49:09 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:49:09 <Zakim> agendum 5. "punctuationSyntax" taken up [from DanC]
15:49:28 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 6
15:49:28 <Zakim> agendum 6. "pending Comments, useMentionOp" taken up
15:51:09 <DanC> ACTION DanC: respond to timbl on behalf of the WG, after looking at what ericP wrote
15:51:20 <DanC> yes, WG decision on useMentionOp sticks
15:51:37 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:51:37 <Zakim> agendum 5. "punctuationSyntax" taken up [from DanC]
15:52:01 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 7
15:52:01 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Last Call for SPARQL QL" taken up [from DanC]
15:52:47 <kendall> i've been responding to protocol comments, FWIW, since the last publication.
15:53:36 <patH> Handling comments at last call, it all gets formal. Rather like a dance at a 17th century ball.
15:53:42 <AndyS> AndyS notes:
15:53:50 <AndyS> LC comment =>
15:54:16 <AndyS> (1) editor attempts to explain (no bytes changing)
15:54:58 <kendall> Ah, but the great century for formal balls was the 18th and into the bow-end of the 19th. :>
15:55:21 <AndyS> s/editor/editors/
15:56:02 <patH> Yes, Kendall, but in the 17th they were trying hard to be formal but there was still straw on the floor. Its more like that.
15:56:14 <AndyS> (2) Repeat comment but now a LC comment.  Chair can quote decision on email.
15:56:29 <kendall> *ah*, excellent. It's formal, but the pig is liable to wander through...!
15:56:34 <patH> Quite.
15:56:58 <AndyS> (3) New information ; WG member persuded to need bytes chnage
15:57:14 <AndyS> (3a) editorial => editor can pass to WG as such
15:57:22 <kendall> can or must, Andy?
15:57:25 <AndyS> Chair decides.
15:57:28 <AndyS> must
15:57:33 <kendall> righ
15:57:35 <kendall> er, right
15:58:06 <AndyS> (3b) non-editorial: formal process to agree change
15:58:54 <kendall> do it
15:59:27 <AndyS> I agree WG should do an internal review
15:59:51 <DanC> KC, SH volunteer to do a last call review
15:59:57 <DanC> JB too
16:01:45 <Zakim> -JanneS
16:02:24 <patH> Pat also has to leave v. soon.
16:03:04 <ericP> EricP's yacker grammar: http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/sparqlTest/bnf?lang=perl
16:03:59 <AndyS> Directory: SyntaxFull
16:04:05 <DanC> PROPOSED: to address punctuationSyntax ala the 70-ish tests in syntax/full
16:04:12 <DaveB> in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/SyntaxFull/
16:04:13 <DanC> PROPOSED: to address punctuationSyntax ala the 70-ish tests in SyntaxFull
16:04:23 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/SyntaxFull/syntax-basic-01.rq
16:04:31 <ericP> SELECT *
16:04:31 <ericP> WHERE { }
16:04:51 <DanC> RESOLVED, PatH and EricP abstaining
16:05:42 <Zakim> -DaveB
16:05:43 <DanC> RESOLVED to meet 14 Jun with KendallC to scribe.
16:05:43 <Zakim> -Kendall_Clark
16:05:43 <Zakim> -PatH
16:06:00 <Zakim> -DanC
16:06:38 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:06:44 <DanC> steve, I didn't explicitly action anybody to mark those 70 tests approved. can you do that?
16:06:53 <DanC> i.e.. would you please?
16:07:08 <SteveH> DanC, sure
16:07:12 <DanC> tx
16:07:14 <DaveB> the bulk approval was as good as we could get.  I also didn't like some of them
16:07:35 <DanC> I'll be somewhat liberal about re-considering individual tests.
16:08:03 <SteveH> DaveB, why deidnt you abstain or so? I was wondering what the state of the '.'s is, im not really happy with what I understand from the doc, but dont know it well enough to abstain
16:09:49 <DaveB> I don't think all the state of '.'s is yet tested
16:14:24 <Zakim> -EricP
16:14:27 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
16:14:28 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:14:31 <jeen> jeen has left #dawg
16:15:06 <patH> <wave>
16:25:23 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:25:40 <DanC> RRSAgent, bye
16:25:40 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items:
16:25:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to finish extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 test [1]
16:25:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/07-dawg-irc#T15-07-41
16:25:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AndyS to revise rq23 to suit fromUnionQuery design [2]
16:25:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/07-dawg-irc#T15-48-19
16:25:40 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to respond to timbl on behalf of the WG, after looking at what ericP wrote [3]
16:25:40 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/07-dawg-irc#T15-51-09