19:46:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:46:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc
19:46:40 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
19:46:47 <wendy> Meeting: WCAG WG telecon
19:47:09 <wendy> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0654.html
19:47:17 <wendy> agenda+ Agenda review and announcements (5 minutes)
19:47:24 <wendy> agenda+ Techniques Task Force (5 minutes)
19:47:33 <wendy> agenda+ GL 3.2 (25 minutes)
19:48:21 <wendy> agenda 3 = GL 3.2 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/bwbp9
19:48:54 <wendy> agenda+ GL 4.1 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/bp2yh
19:49:33 <wendy> agenda+ GL 3.1 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/77h9g
19:50:23 <wendy> agenda+ GL 1.3 (25 minutes) 
19:50:31 <wendy> weird - i can't see the results for 1.3. can anyone else?
19:50:47 <wendy> agenda 6 =  GL 1.3 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/dl25f
19:50:49 <Yvette> no problems here
19:50:57 <Yvette> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/content-structure-separation20050531/results
19:51:50 <wendy> weird. *all* that i see is the h1, the right sidebar, and "12 answers have been received."
19:52:05 <Yvette> Has anyone of you heard anything from Tom (Croucher) lately? I haven't seen him around 
19:52:22 <wendy> ya, he's busy finishing up the semester and i think starting a new job.
19:52:57 <wendy> can someone email me the 1.3 results? e.g., save it as a web page and send it to me?
19:52:59 <Yvette> ah great. The last I heard was that he wasn't feeling too well so I was worried that might be the reason
19:53:05 <Yvette> sure, I'll do it
19:53:08 <wendy> thx
19:54:15 <Yvette> on it's way
19:54:44 <Yvette> with my emphasis in place :o)
19:54:54 <wendy> :)
19:54:56 <bengt> bengt has joined #wai-wcag
19:54:58 <ben_> ben_ has joined #wai-wcag
19:55:15 <wendy> hey, phantom ben has arrived.
19:55:45 <Yvette> Does Mindy like having two Bens around? :-P
19:55:58 <bengt> hmm, my clock is messed up what time is it 
19:56:04 <Yvette> 21:56
19:56:09 <Yvette> hi Bengt
19:56:13 <bengt> hi
19:56:15 <ben_> so, can you kick an operator out?
19:58:53 <jslatin> jslatin has joined #wai-wcag
19:58:54 <ben> ben has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:01 <Yvette> Hi John
19:59:34 <bengt> real or fake ben back ?
19:59:50 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:59:56 <Zakim> +??P3
20:00:04 <Michael> you know all our preconference humour is being logged to the Web for posterity...
20:00:10 <Yvette> O dear...
20:00:14 <Zakim> +Wendy
20:00:15 <joeclark> joeclark has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:22 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
20:00:27 <Zakim> + +1.202.558.aaaa - is perhaps Bengt_Farre
20:00:28 <wendy> ya - in the future we can ask the agent not to log until we're read.
20:00:30 <wendy> ready
20:00:33 <Michael> zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
20:00:33 <Zakim> ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
20:00:33 <Yvette> I'm glad I'm on first name basis then :-)
20:00:41 <jslatin> hi joe
20:00:48 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:00:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Bengt_Farre
20:00:49 <Yvette> Hi Joe
20:00:54 <wendy> zakim, ??P3 is Joe_Clark
20:00:54 <Zakim> +Joe_Clark; got it
20:01:00 <Zakim> +John_Slatin
20:01:27 <Zakim> +[IBM]
20:01:30 <wendy> scribe: wendy
20:01:39 <Christophe> Christophe has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:39 <Zakim> +Yvette_Hoitink
20:01:51 <wendy> zakim, [IBM] is Andi_Snow-Weaver
20:01:51 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
20:02:27 <Zakim> +Alex_Li
20:02:40 <Zakim> +Dave_MacDonald
20:03:02 <Zakim> +??P2
20:03:10 <ben> zakim, ??P2 is Gregg_and_Ben
20:03:10 <Zakim> +Gregg_and_Ben; got it
20:03:16 <Zakim> +Christophe_Strobbe
20:03:54 <Zakim> +JasonWhite
20:04:02 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:04:14 <Zakim> +Matt
20:04:35 <wendy> zakim, Microsoft is Mike_Barta
20:04:35 <Zakim> +Mike_Barta; got it
20:04:40 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joe_Clark, Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Bengt_Farre, John_Slatin, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Yvette_Hoitink, Alex_Li, Dave_MacDonald, Gregg_and_Ben, Christophe_Strobbe,
20:04:43 <Zakim> ... JasonWhite, Mike_Barta, Matt
20:04:54 <gregg> gregg has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:16 <wendy> scribe: wendy
20:05:24 <wendy> zakim, take up item 1
20:05:24 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Agenda review and announcements (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:05:27 <David_> David_ has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:40 <David_> test
20:05:44 <wendy> "enduring and durable 3.1" ? ;)
20:06:18 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
20:06:42 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:45 <Andi> Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:07:14 <wendy> zakim, next item
20:07:14 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Techniques Task Force (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:08:17 <wendy> mc: reviews for 4.2, 1.3, and 2.5. more work needed. expect emails on list. next week: scripts, scribe school, f2f prep
20:08:30 <wendy> js: f2f agendas soon
20:08:33 <wendy> zakim, next item
20:08:33 <Zakim> agendum 3. "GL 3.2 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/bwbp9" taken up
20:09:31 <wendy> yes - messed up on the settings and am unable to change.
20:10:14 <wendy> i'll send them to you, david, bengt, christophe, joe. others need it?
20:11:18 <Christophe> I can't se results for 3.2 either (3.1, 2.4 are OK)
20:12:44 <wendy> just sent to y'all
20:15:12 <wendy> q+ to ask alex what feedback he needs and what he'd like to focus on
20:16:29 <wendy> q-
20:17:14 <wendy> ack alex
20:17:16 <gregg> q?
20:19:52 <gregg> q+
20:20:29 <wendy> ack mike
20:21:25 <wendy> ack g
20:22:22 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
20:22:22 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:22:57 <wendy> ack j
20:24:41 <Becky> q+
20:26:21 <wendy> zakim, ping in 5 minutes
20:26:21 <Zakim> ok, wendy
20:27:26 <wendy> ack b
20:29:04 <wendy> ack a
20:29:49 <Yvette> zakim, unmute me
20:29:49 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:31:22 <Zakim> wendy, you asked to be pinged at this time
20:32:02 <wendy> ack a
20:32:45 <wendy> john lists examples of extreme changes of context that he is concerned about.
20:33:01 <wendy> discussion about "user-initiated extreme changes of context"
20:33:15 <wendy> action: alex and mike rework proposals for 3.2
20:34:16 <wendy> q+
20:35:03 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
20:35:03 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:35:10 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
20:36:21 <wendy> ack w
20:37:10 <joeclark> q+
20:37:41 <wendy> ack mi
20:38:14 <wendy> ack jo
20:39:24 <wendy> zakim, next item
20:39:24 <Zakim> agendum 4. "GL 4.1 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/bp2yh" taken up [from wendy]
20:41:27 <wendy> proposal 1 - 9 don't want
20:41:28 <wendy> proposal 2 - 8 don't want
20:41:30 <wendy> proposal 3 - 5 don't want
20:42:55 <gregg> q+
20:42:57 <wendy> ack j
20:43:56 <joeclark> q+
20:44:12 <wendy> q+
20:44:25 <Yvette> q+ to say "lack of robustness in AT?"
20:45:05 <Yvette> q-
20:45:25 <gregg> ack g
20:45:26 <wendy> ack g
20:45:27 <wendy> ack j
20:46:54 <wendy> q-
20:47:42 <wendy> q+
20:48:14 <Yvette> q+ to say "Word, Frontpage"
20:49:05 <wendy> ack w
20:50:17 <Yvette> ack y
20:50:17 <wendy> ack y
20:50:18 <Zakim> Yvette, you wanted to say "Word, Frontpage"
20:51:33 <wendy> ack j
20:51:37 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
20:51:37 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:52:04 <Andi> q+
20:52:44 <wendy> ack a
20:53:35 <wendy> action: ben rework proposal for 4.1 based on feedback (either choose one approach and work into a proposal, or multiple). include "current wording" in survey.
20:54:04 <wendy> zakim, next item
20:54:04 <Zakim> agendum 5. "GL 3.1 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/77h9g" taken up [from wendy]
20:57:04 <wendy> john clarifies: readable means you can figure out words and sentences. understandable means you can comprehend what you're reading. (did i get that right?)
20:57:14 <jslatin> think so
20:59:10 <wendy> resolution: adopt proposed wording for Guideline 3.1 Make text content readable and understandable.
20:59:35 <wendy> discussing: Proposed wording Level 1 SC2: A mechanism for finding the expanded form of acronyms and abbreviations is available
20:59:54 <wendy> 12 preferred proposed, 7 preferred current
21:01:12 <wendy> examples: ibm (name), dvd (no longer stands for what it started out). are these still acronyms?
21:01:16 <wendy> ack m
21:01:24 <Zakim> -Mike_Barta
21:03:05 <Yvette> q+ to say "meaning can be determined applies to abbrevs and acronyms too"
21:03:22 <wendy> ack a
21:04:09 <gregg> * no it didnt you just disappeared
21:04:14 <joeclark> q+
21:04:30 <gregg> * we did hear a shit
21:05:05 <gregg> *someone else then - sounded like they spilled their coffee or something
21:06:49 <wendy> q+ to ask if we are getting into imp details
21:07:21 <wendy> q-
21:09:18 <Yvette> ack y
21:09:19 <Zakim> Yvette, you wanted to say "meaning can be determined applies to abbrevs and acronyms too"
21:10:47 <wendy> ack j
21:11:22 <gregg> q+
21:11:45 <wendy> :)
21:11:48 <wendy> ack g
21:11:49 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
21:11:49 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:12:18 <ben> q+ to say, "but footnotes and endnotes do appear on the web, just as markup that doesn't identify them as such"
21:14:40 <wendy> concern that discussion about acronym/abbreviation are important b/c they are structures in HTML.  suggestion to not have anything specific about acronym and abbreviation because it is covered by "use according to spec."  counter-example of "footnote" which is not an html structure that *is* available in pdf.
21:15:09 <wendy> ack ben
21:15:09 <Zakim> ben, you wanted to say, "but footnotes and endnotes do appear on the web, just as markup that doesn't identify them as such"
21:16:01 <jslatin> <q> is not supported
21:16:41 <joeclark> q+
21:17:13 <wendy> ack j
21:18:37 <joeclark> by the way, Window-Eyes 4.5 and later supports q and blockquote.
21:19:06 <joeclark> IBM HPR 3.04 even supports <ruby>.
21:19:23 <wendy> resolution: needs more work
21:19:28 <wendy> discussing Proposed wording Level 3 SC3: Section headings and link text are understandable when read by themselves or as a group (for example in a list of links or a table of contents).
21:22:17 <joeclark> q+
21:22:28 <gregg> ack j
21:22:36 <gregg> ack john
21:22:45 <gregg> Q joeclark
21:23:03 <Yvette> q+ joeclark
21:23:21 <joeclark> q+
21:25:35 <wendy> ack jo
21:26:16 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
21:28:07 <wendy> consider getting feedback about moving to level 2
21:28:07 <Michael> Michael has joined #wai-wcag
21:31:42 <wendy> joe doesn't support adopting proposed wording.  response on survey was:
21:31:46 <wendy> This remains a terrible and counterfactual idea, where we require X (coding according to spec and writing in a linearizable order) and anti-X (allowing any device to pull out content and remix it).
21:31:53 <jslatin> proposed l3 sc3 is authorial action to support UA function
21:34:50 <wendy> resolution: (with objection) for Proposed wording Level 3 SC3: Section headings and link text are understandable when read by themselves or as a group (for example in a list of links or a table of contents).  with the following actions:
21:35:33 <wendy> action: john updated proposal for L3SC3 w/removal of "screen reader" and ask about moving to level 2. provide rationale for SC.
21:35:45 <wendy> zakim, next item
21:35:45 <Zakim> agendum 6. "GL 1.3 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/dl25f" taken up
21:38:19 <joeclark> q?
21:38:22 <joeclark> q+
21:38:32 <wendy> ack joe
21:39:28 <gregg> q+
21:39:53 <Yvette> q+ to say "ensure that the structure and function of the web content do not depend on the presentation"
21:39:53 <wendy> ack joh
21:40:58 <wendy> ack gr
21:43:59 <Yvette> ack y
21:44:00 <Zakim> Yvette, you wanted to say "ensure that the structure and function of the web content do not depend on the presentation"
21:45:26 <wendy> yvette proposes: ensure that the structure and function of the web content do not depend on the presentation
21:45:56 <wendy> ack john
21:46:47 <gregg> q+
21:47:59 <wendy> ack gr
21:48:13 <joeclark> q+
21:50:20 <wendy> ack j
21:56:07 <wendy> ack ja
21:58:59 <wendy> discussing - Proposed wording Level 1 SC2: Markup or coding is used to encode document semantics
21:59:31 <wendy> 9 preferred proposed wording, 3 preferred current wording
21:59:56 <wendy> s/9/10
22:04:14 <wendy> action: joe rework proposal for L1SC2, including a proposed defn of "document semantics"
22:06:19 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
22:06:25 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow-Weaver
22:06:26 <Zakim> -Dave_MacDonald
22:06:27 <Zakim> -Matt
22:06:28 <Zakim> -Joe_Clark
22:06:30 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
22:06:31 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
22:06:32 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
22:06:33 <Zakim> -Wendy
22:06:34 <Zakim> -John_Slatin
22:06:35 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
22:06:36 <Zakim> -Yvette_Hoitink
22:06:38 <Zakim> -Gregg_and_Ben
22:06:39 <joeclark> joeclark has left #wai-wcag
22:06:41 <Zakim> -JasonWhite
22:06:42 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:06:44 <Zakim> Attendees were Wendy, Michael_Cooper, +1.202.558.aaaa, Joe_Clark, John_Slatin, Yvette_Hoitink, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Alex_Li, Dave_MacDonald, Gregg_and_Ben, Christophe_Strobbe,
22:06:47 <Zakim> ... JasonWhite, [Microsoft], Matt, Mike_Barta, Becky_Gibson
22:06:54 <wendy> RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:06:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:07:06 <jslatin> doesn't say there (must* be structure. if there is it has to be separ/sg wendy take care. thanks for scribing.
22:07:20 <bengt> bengt has left #wai-wcag
22:07:43 <Christophe> Christophe has left #wai-wcag
22:18:33 <Andi> Andi has left #wai-wcag
22:56:17 <wendy> regrets: Makoto UEKI, Sebastiano Nutarelli, Roberto Castaldo, Tim Boland, Loretta Guarino Reid
22:56:24 <wendy> RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:56:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:56:59 <wendy> Chair: John and Gregg
22:58:41 <wendy> Present:  Wendy Chisholm, Michael_Cooper, Joe_Clark, Bengt Farre, John_Slatin, Yvette_Hoitink, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Alex_Li, Dave_MacDonald, Gregg Vanderheiden, Ben Caldwell, Christophe_Strobbe, Jason White, Matt May, Mike_Barta, Becky_Gibson
22:58:53 <wendy> RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:58:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
23:02:09 <ben> ben has left #wai-wcag
23:10:47 <wendy> zakim, bye
23:10:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
23:10:50 <wendy> RRSAgent, bye
23:10:50 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items:
23:10:50 <RRSAgent> ACTION: alex and mike rework proposals for 3.2 [1]
23:10:50 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-33-15
23:10:50 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben rework proposal for 4.1 based on feedback (either choose one approach and work into a proposal, or multiple). include "current wording" in survey. [2]
23:10:50 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-53-35
23:10:50 <RRSAgent> ACTION: john updated proposal for L3SC3 w/removal of "screen reader" and ask about moving to level 2. provide rationale for SC. [3]
23:10:50 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-35-33
23:10:50 <RRSAgent> ACTION: joe rework proposal for L1SC2, including a proposed defn of "document semantics" [4]
23:10:50 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc#T22-04-14