IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-06-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:46:36 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:46:36 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc
19:46:40 [wendy]: RRSAgent, make log world
19:46:47 [wendy]: Meeting: WCAG WG telecon
19:47:09 [wendy]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0654.html
19:47:17 [wendy]: agenda+ Agenda review and announcements (5 minutes)
19:47:24 [wendy]: agenda+ Techniques Task Force (5 minutes)
19:47:33 [wendy]: agenda+ GL 3.2 (25 minutes)
19:48:21 [wendy]: agenda 3 = GL 3.2 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/bwbp9
19:48:54 [wendy]: agenda+ GL 4.1 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/bp2yh
19:49:33 [wendy]: agenda+ GL 3.1 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/77h9g
19:50:23 [wendy]: agenda+ GL 1.3 (25 minutes)
19:50:31 [wendy]: weird - i can't see the results for 1.3. can anyone else?
19:50:47 [wendy]: agenda 6 = GL 1.3 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/dl25f
19:50:49 [Yvette]: no problems here
19:50:57 [Yvette]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/content-structure-separation20050531/results
19:51:50 [wendy]: weird. *all* that i see is the h1, the right sidebar, and "12 answers have been received."
19:52:05 [Yvette]: Has anyone of you heard anything from Tom (Croucher) lately? I haven't seen him around
19:52:22 [wendy]: ya, he's busy finishing up the semester and i think starting a new job.
19:52:57 [wendy]: can someone email me the 1.3 results? e.g., save it as a web page and send it to me?
19:52:59 [Yvette]: ah great. The last I heard was that he wasn't feeling too well so I was worried that might be the reason
19:53:05 [Yvette]: sure, I'll do it
19:53:08 [wendy]: thx
19:54:15 [Yvette]: on it's way
19:54:44 [Yvette]: with my emphasis in place :o)
19:54:54 [wendy]: :)
19:54:56 [bengt]: bengt has joined #wai-wcag
19:54:58 [ben_]: ben_ has joined #wai-wcag
19:55:15 [wendy]: hey, phantom ben has arrived.
19:55:45 [Yvette]: Does Mindy like having two Bens around? :-P
19:55:58 [bengt]: hmm, my clock is messed up what time is it
19:56:04 [Yvette]: 21:56
19:56:09 [Yvette]: hi Bengt
19:56:13 [bengt]: hi
19:56:15 [ben_]: so, can you kick an operator out?
19:58:53 [jslatin]: jslatin has joined #wai-wcag
19:58:54 [ben]: ben has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:01 [Yvette]: Hi John
19:59:34 [bengt]: real or fake ben back ?
19:59:50 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:59:56 [Zakim]: +??P3
20:00:04 [Michael]: you know all our preconference humour is being logged to the Web for posterity...
20:00:10 [Yvette]: O dear...
20:00:14 [Zakim]: +Wendy
20:00:15 [joeclark]: joeclark has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:22 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
20:00:27 [Zakim]: + +1.202.558.aaaa - is perhaps Bengt_Farre
20:00:28 [wendy]: ya - in the future we can ask the agent not to log until we're read.
20:00:30 [wendy]: ready
20:00:33 [Michael]: zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
20:00:33 [Zakim]: ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
20:00:33 [Yvette]: I'm glad I'm on first name basis then :-)
20:00:41 [jslatin]: hi joe
20:00:48 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:00:48 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P3, Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Bengt_Farre
20:00:49 [Yvette]: Hi Joe
20:00:54 [wendy]: zakim, ??P3 is Joe_Clark
20:00:54 [Zakim]: +Joe_Clark; got it
20:01:00 [Zakim]: +John_Slatin
20:01:27 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
20:01:30 [wendy]: scribe: wendy
20:01:39 [Christophe]: Christophe has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:39 [Zakim]: +Yvette_Hoitink
20:01:51 [wendy]: zakim, [IBM] is Andi_Snow-Weaver
20:01:51 [Zakim]: +Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
20:02:27 [Zakim]: +Alex_Li
20:02:40 [Zakim]: +Dave_MacDonald
20:03:02 [Zakim]: +??P2
20:03:10 [ben]: zakim, ??P2 is Gregg_and_Ben
20:03:10 [Zakim]: +Gregg_and_Ben; got it
20:03:16 [Zakim]: +Christophe_Strobbe
20:03:54 [Zakim]: +JasonWhite
20:04:02 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
20:04:14 [Zakim]: +Matt
20:04:35 [wendy]: zakim, Microsoft is Mike_Barta
20:04:35 [Zakim]: +Mike_Barta; got it
20:04:40 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:40 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Joe_Clark, Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Bengt_Farre, John_Slatin, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Yvette_Hoitink, Alex_Li, Dave_MacDonald, Gregg_and_Ben, Christophe_Strobbe,
20:04:43 [Zakim]: ... JasonWhite, Mike_Barta, Matt
20:04:54 [gregg]: gregg has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:16 [wendy]: scribe: wendy
20:05:24 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 1
20:05:24 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Agenda review and announcements (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:05:27 [David_]: David_ has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:40 [David_]: test
20:05:44 [wendy]: "enduring and durable 3.1" ? ;)
20:06:18 [Zakim]: +Becky_Gibson
20:06:42 [Becky]: Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:45 [Andi]: Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:07:14 [wendy]: zakim, next item
20:07:14 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Techniques Task Force (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:08:17 [wendy]: mc: reviews for 4.2, 1.3, and 2.5. more work needed. expect emails on list. next week: scripts, scribe school, f2f prep
20:08:30 [wendy]: js: f2f agendas soon
20:08:33 [wendy]: zakim, next item
20:08:33 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "GL 3.2 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/bwbp9" taken up
20:09:31 [wendy]: yes - messed up on the settings and am unable to change.
20:10:14 [wendy]: i'll send them to you, david, bengt, christophe, joe. others need it?
20:11:18 [Christophe]: I can't se results for 3.2 either (3.1, 2.4 are OK)
20:12:44 [wendy]: just sent to y'all
20:15:12 [wendy]: q+ to ask alex what feedback he needs and what he'd like to focus on
20:16:29 [wendy]: q-
20:17:14 [wendy]: ack alex
20:17:16 [gregg]: q?
20:19:52 [gregg]: q+
20:20:29 [wendy]: ack mike
20:21:25 [wendy]: ack g
20:22:22 [Yvette]: zakim, mute me
20:22:22 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:22:57 [wendy]: ack j
20:24:41 [Becky]: q+
20:26:21 [wendy]: zakim, ping in 5 minutes
20:26:21 [Zakim]: ok, wendy
20:27:26 [wendy]: ack b
20:29:04 [wendy]: ack a
20:29:49 [Yvette]: zakim, unmute me
20:29:49 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:31:22 [Zakim]: wendy, you asked to be pinged at this time
20:32:02 [wendy]: ack a
20:32:45 [wendy]: john lists examples of extreme changes of context that he is concerned about.
20:33:01 [wendy]: discussion about "user-initiated extreme changes of context"
20:33:15 [wendy]: action: alex and mike rework proposals for 3.2
20:34:16 [wendy]: q+
20:35:03 [Yvette]: zakim, mute me
20:35:03 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:35:10 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
20:36:21 [wendy]: ack w
20:37:10 [joeclark]: q+
20:37:41 [wendy]: ack mi
20:38:14 [wendy]: ack jo
20:39:24 [wendy]: zakim, next item
20:39:24 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "GL 4.1 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/bp2yh" taken up [from wendy]
20:41:27 [wendy]: proposal 1 - 9 don't want
20:41:28 [wendy]: proposal 2 - 8 don't want
20:41:30 [wendy]: proposal 3 - 5 don't want
20:42:55 [gregg]: q+
20:42:57 [wendy]: ack j
20:43:56 [joeclark]: q+
20:44:12 [wendy]: q+
20:44:25 [Yvette]: q+ to say "lack of robustness in AT?"
20:45:05 [Yvette]: q-
20:45:25 [gregg]: ack g
20:45:26 [wendy]: ack g
20:45:27 [wendy]: ack j
20:46:54 [wendy]: q-
20:47:42 [wendy]: q+
20:48:14 [Yvette]: q+ to say "Word, Frontpage"
20:49:05 [wendy]: ack w
20:50:17 [Yvette]: ack y
20:50:17 [wendy]: ack y
20:50:18 [Zakim]: Yvette, you wanted to say "Word, Frontpage"
20:51:33 [wendy]: ack j
20:51:37 [Yvette]: zakim, mute me
20:51:37 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:52:04 [Andi]: q+
20:52:44 [wendy]: ack a
20:53:35 [wendy]: action: ben rework proposal for 4.1 based on feedback (either choose one approach and work into a proposal, or multiple). include "current wording" in survey.
20:54:04 [wendy]: zakim, next item
20:54:04 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "GL 3.1 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/77h9g" taken up [from wendy]
20:57:04 [wendy]: john clarifies: readable means you can figure out words and sentences. understandable means you can comprehend what you're reading. (did i get that right?)
20:57:14 [jslatin]: think so
20:59:10 [wendy]: resolution: adopt proposed wording for Guideline 3.1 Make text content readable and understandable.
20:59:35 [wendy]: discussing: Proposed wording Level 1 SC2: A mechanism for finding the expanded form of acronyms and abbreviations is available
20:59:54 [wendy]: 12 preferred proposed, 7 preferred current
21:01:12 [wendy]: examples: ibm (name), dvd (no longer stands for what it started out). are these still acronyms?
21:01:16 [wendy]: ack m
21:01:24 [Zakim]: -Mike_Barta
21:03:05 [Yvette]: q+ to say "meaning can be determined applies to abbrevs and acronyms too"
21:03:22 [wendy]: ack a
21:04:09 [gregg]: * no it didnt you just disappeared
21:04:14 [joeclark]: q+
21:04:30 [gregg]: * we did hear a shit
21:05:05 [gregg]: *someone else then - sounded like they spilled their coffee or something
21:06:49 [wendy]: q+ to ask if we are getting into imp details
21:07:21 [wendy]: q-
21:09:18 [Yvette]: ack y
21:09:19 [Zakim]: Yvette, you wanted to say "meaning can be determined applies to abbrevs and acronyms too"
21:10:47 [wendy]: ack j
21:11:22 [gregg]: q+
21:11:45 [wendy]: :)
21:11:48 [wendy]: ack g
21:11:49 [Yvette]: zakim, mute me
21:11:49 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:12:18 [ben]: q+ to say, "but footnotes and endnotes do appear on the web, just as markup that doesn't identify them as such"
21:14:40 [wendy]: concern that discussion about acronym/abbreviation are important b/c they are structures in HTML. suggestion to not have anything specific about acronym and abbreviation because it is covered by "use according to spec." counter-example of "footnote" which is not an html structure that *is* available in pdf.
21:15:09 [wendy]: ack ben
21:15:09 [Zakim]: ben, you wanted to say, "but footnotes and endnotes do appear on the web, just as markup that doesn't identify them as such"
21:16:01 [jslatin]: <q> is not supported
21:16:41 [joeclark]: q+
21:17:13 [wendy]: ack j
21:18:37 [joeclark]: by the way, Window-Eyes 4.5 and later supports q and blockquote.
21:19:06 [joeclark]: IBM HPR 3.04 even supports <ruby>.
21:19:23 [wendy]: resolution: needs more work
21:19:28 [wendy]: discussing Proposed wording Level 3 SC3: Section headings and link text are understandable when read by themselves or as a group (for example in a list of links or a table of contents).
21:22:17 [joeclark]: q+
21:22:28 [gregg]: ack j
21:22:36 [gregg]: ack john
21:22:45 [gregg]: Q joeclark
21:23:03 [Yvette]: q+ joeclark
21:23:21 [joeclark]: q+
21:25:35 [wendy]: ack jo
21:26:16 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
21:28:07 [wendy]: consider getting feedback about moving to level 2
21:28:07 [Michael]: Michael has joined #wai-wcag
21:31:42 [wendy]: joe doesn't support adopting proposed wording. response on survey was:
21:31:46 [wendy]: This remains a terrible and counterfactual idea, where we require X (coding according to spec and writing in a linearizable order) and anti-X (allowing any device to pull out content and remix it).
21:31:53 [jslatin]: proposed l3 sc3 is authorial action to support UA function
21:34:50 [wendy]: resolution: (with objection) for Proposed wording Level 3 SC3: Section headings and link text are understandable when read by themselves or as a group (for example in a list of links or a table of contents). with the following actions:
21:35:33 [wendy]: action: john updated proposal for L3SC3 w/removal of "screen reader" and ask about moving to level 2. provide rationale for SC.
21:35:45 [wendy]: zakim, next item
21:35:45 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "GL 1.3 (25 minutes) http://tinyurl.com/dl25f" taken up
21:38:19 [joeclark]: q?
21:38:22 [joeclark]: q+
21:38:32 [wendy]: ack joe
21:39:28 [gregg]: q+
21:39:53 [Yvette]: q+ to say "ensure that the structure and function of the web content do not depend on the presentation"
21:39:53 [wendy]: ack joh
21:40:58 [wendy]: ack gr
21:43:59 [Yvette]: ack y
21:44:00 [Zakim]: Yvette, you wanted to say "ensure that the structure and function of the web content do not depend on the presentation"
21:45:26 [wendy]: yvette proposes: ensure that the structure and function of the web content do not depend on the presentation
21:45:56 [wendy]: ack john
21:46:47 [gregg]: q+
21:47:59 [wendy]: ack gr
21:48:13 [joeclark]: q+
21:50:20 [wendy]: ack j
21:56:07 [wendy]: ack ja
21:58:59 [wendy]: discussing - Proposed wording Level 1 SC2: Markup or coding is used to encode document semantics
21:59:31 [wendy]: 9 preferred proposed wording, 3 preferred current wording
21:59:56 [wendy]: s/9/10
22:04:14 [wendy]: action: joe rework proposal for L1SC2, including a proposed defn of "document semantics"
22:06:19 [Zakim]: -Alex_Li
22:06:25 [Zakim]: -Andi_Snow-Weaver
22:06:26 [Zakim]: -Dave_MacDonald
22:06:27 [Zakim]: -Matt
22:06:28 [Zakim]: -Joe_Clark
22:06:30 [Zakim]: -Becky_Gibson
22:06:31 [Zakim]: -Christophe_Strobbe
22:06:32 [Zakim]: -Bengt_Farre
22:06:33 [Zakim]: -Wendy
22:06:34 [Zakim]: -John_Slatin
22:06:35 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
22:06:36 [Zakim]: -Yvette_Hoitink
22:06:38 [Zakim]: -Gregg_and_Ben
22:06:39 [joeclark]: joeclark has left #wai-wcag
22:06:41 [Zakim]: -JasonWhite
22:06:42 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:06:44 [Zakim]: Attendees were Wendy, Michael_Cooper, +1.202.558.aaaa, Joe_Clark, John_Slatin, Yvette_Hoitink, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Alex_Li, Dave_MacDonald, Gregg_and_Ben, Christophe_Strobbe,
22:06:47 [Zakim]: ... JasonWhite, [Microsoft], Matt, Mike_Barta, Becky_Gibson
22:06:54 [wendy]: RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:06:54 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:07:06 [jslatin]: doesn't say there (must* be structure. if there is it has to be separ/sg wendy take care. thanks for scribing.
22:07:20 [bengt]: bengt has left #wai-wcag
22:07:43 [Christophe]: Christophe has left #wai-wcag
22:18:33 [Andi]: Andi has left #wai-wcag
22:56:17 [wendy]: regrets: Makoto UEKI, Sebastiano Nutarelli, Roberto Castaldo, Tim Boland, Loretta Guarino Reid
22:56:24 [wendy]: RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:56:24 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:56:59 [wendy]: Chair: John and Gregg
22:58:41 [wendy]: Present: Wendy Chisholm, Michael_Cooper, Joe_Clark, Bengt Farre, John_Slatin, Yvette_Hoitink, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Alex_Li, Dave_MacDonald, Gregg Vanderheiden, Ben Caldwell, Christophe_Strobbe, Jason White, Matt May, Mike_Barta, Becky_Gibson
22:58:53 [wendy]: RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:58:53 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
23:02:09 [ben]: ben has left #wai-wcag
23:10:47 [wendy]: zakim, bye
23:10:47 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
23:10:50 [wendy]: RRSAgent, bye
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items:
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: alex and mike rework proposals for 3.2 [1]
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-33-15
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ben rework proposal for 4.1 based on feedback (either choose one approach and work into a proposal, or multiple). include "current wording" in survey. [2]
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-53-35
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john updated proposal for L3SC3 w/removal of "screen reader" and ask about moving to level 2. provide rationale for SC. [3]
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-35-33
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: joe rework proposal for L1SC2, including a proposed defn of "document semantics" [4]
23:10:50 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/02-wai-wcag-irc#T22-04-14