13:59:00 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 13:59:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-irc 13:59:13 chair: Michael 13:59:27 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started 13:59:28 +Dave_MacDonald 13:59:34 David has joined #wai-wcag 13:59:41 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0635.html 13:59:42 ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag 13:59:48 test 14:00:35 +Michael_Cooper 14:00:36 -Michael_Cooper 14:00:37 +Michael_Cooper 14:00:38 Becky has joined #wai-wcag 14:00:42 +Becky_Gibson 14:00:45 Christophe has joined #wai-wcag 14:01:02 +Ben 14:01:27 +Christophe_Strobbe 14:02:16 +John_Slatin 14:04:04 +Wendy 14:04:12 +[IPcaller] 14:04:18 jslatin has joined #wai-wcag 14:04:20 +??P31 14:04:33 zakim, [ipcaller] is Chris_Ridpath 14:04:33 +Chris_Ridpath; got it 14:04:48 or me 14:04:48 wendy has joined #wai-wcag 14:04:54 zakim, ??P31 is Lisa_Seeman 14:04:54 +Lisa_Seeman; got it 14:05:00 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:05:00 On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, John_Slatin, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Lisa_Seeman 14:05:13 agenda? 14:05:46 scribe: Becky 14:06:05 mc: agenda is issue review 14:06:18 mc: agenda for f2f will be posted soon - will be working session 14:06:28 mc: please sign up if planning to attend 14:07:04 bc: just published new GL draft with latest resolutions 14:07:53 mc: start with 4.2 css techs 14:08:10 zakim, take up item 1 14:08:10 agendum 1. "Continue review of 4.2" taken up [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0360.html via Michael] 14:08:54 dm: no clean hits for css techs for gl 4.2 14:10:33 David_ has joined #wai-wcag 14:10:51 bg: tech about using display:none and positioning to create invisible labels 14:11:00 js: have issues with display:none 14:11:24 mc: also have issues with display:none; also it is a tech to work around WCAG GL's that people don't like 14:11:39 dm: not sure this applies to 4.2 14:12:04 js: would put under 2.5 - avoiding error; or 1.3 - making structures percievable 14:12:16 dm: think both are better hits than 4.2 14:12:23 js: also touches on baseline 14:13:16 q+ 14:13:36 q+ 14:13:37 js: think about mapping techniques to tasks and tasks to SC 14:14:32 ack leasa 14:15:08 ack ben 14:15:11 ls: curious how css techs map to people with learning disabilities 14:15:17 js: will get to when discuss 3.1 14:15:45 bc: a little hesitant about tasks mapping idea 14:15:55 mc: is this something to work out at f2f? 14:16:08 action john Think about CSS techniques that help people with LD and cognitive/language issues 14:16:23 wc: am working on proposal to send to guide doc sub group 14:16:47 Can I jion John on that 14:16:50 wc: in guide declare whether techs are req. or optional for achieving task 14:18:06 mc: back to 4.2 issue summary 14:18:35 dm: don't think any of the css techs currently mapped to 4.2 as belonging there 14:18:49 q+ to ask "structure is SC, could task be 'designing a visual layout?'" 14:19:05 ack john 14:19:05 ack john 14:19:09 ack wendy 14:19:09 wendy, you wanted to ask "structure is SC, could task be 'designing a visual layout?'" 14:19:31 js: 1.1 and 1.2 css techs seem to map to 3.2 14:19:54 wc: not all techs will directly map - for ex: creating a layout 14:20:29 ack john 14:20:39 wc: task is creating a visual layout - some techs will map to that 14:21:00 js: making structure visible might be task for GL 1.3 14:21:47 js: have concerns but certainly think it is worth pursuing 14:22:13 note to self: perhaps "designing visual layout" is part of an "application guide" and not guide doc level task? 14:22:13 mc: action is to flag these for followup later 14:22:35 dm: remove mapping to 4.2 and remap 14:22:47 dm: 5.5 goes to 1.3 or 2.5 14:22:56 dm: 1.1 and 1.2 goes to 3.2 14:23:10 dm: 5.2 goes to 1.3 or 3.2 14:23:38 action: David propose remapping of CSS techniques currently mapped to 4.2 14:23:46 ed note: format above is - css tech (x.y) goes to GL a.b 14:23:59 mc: move to scripting for 4.2 14:25:45 dm: issue is JS uris 14:25:54 bg: is baseline issue 14:27:56 ls: can set role 14:28:02 mc: but that is future 14:28:09 ls: works in Firefox now 14:28:37 prev. discussion was about form submits and use of js uris 14:28:48 dm: hearing that we want to discourage js uris 14:29:07 mc: yes - because it doesn't fallback but also is not a spec 14:30:02 dm: so maps to 4.1 since js uri is not in any "official" spec 14:30:39 dm: ques about how JAWS will handle these? 14:30:59 js: does handle in links list and seems to also handle events on a span 14:31:27 mc: propose mapping to 1.1 - and note that it baseline related 14:31:32 bg: why 1.1? 14:31:40 mc: because it is impossible to provide a fallback 14:32:03 js: think it is 4.1 or 4.2 14:32:08 mc: so keep at 4.2 14:33:04 2.2: Dynamic content generation 14:33:04 dm: need to mark it as a NOT to do tech 14:34:13 bg: can be used, but need to know how/what to do and not with XHTML. 14:35:14 bg: related to baseline 14:36:09 bg: need to decide how much information we want to provide - can use document.write accessiblity but we probably don't want to encourage it 14:37:11 js: so clarify based on baseline 14:38:24 js: basline is HTML 4.01 and scripting can use document.write carefully, if baseline is xhtml and script should use createElement 14:38:31 Why document.write() doesn't work in XML - http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1091626816&count=1 14:41:16 zakim, close this item 14:41:16 agendum 1 closed 14:41:17 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:41:18 2. Continue review of 1.3, [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0345.html via Michael] 14:41:22 zakim, take up next item 14:41:22 agendum 2. "Continue review of 1.3," taken up [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0345.html] 14:41:38 scribe: David_ 14:41:45 scribe: David_ 14:42:40 Questions about classification of techniques: 14:42:53 bg: questions about tables for layout mapping 14:43:35 mc: we talked about this in the 2.4 discussion 14:44:22 js: we decided that we reading order would be in 3.2 14:44:38 mc: i believe this should be in 3.2 14:44:59 bg: where does "summarizing data tale go 14:45:09 s/tale/table 14:45:37 mc: perhaps 2.4 cause helps navigation 14:45:42 js: yup 2.4 14:46:36 Begin CSS Techniques Issues relating to GL 1.3 14:46:43 bg: css, many are generally mapped to 1.3 with no sc, and many are best practises 14:47:37 bc: this wouldn't exest if not for browsers quirks so its 4.2 14:47:59 mc: but scalability is important 14:48:08 bc: but its a repair technique 14:49:11 wc: there are times to scale and times not to scale ie, borders, teaching people that content will be magnified, and what authors need to consider about that 14:50:45 js: we need a sc for making text epercievable, we are making a default assumption that text is accessible, whihc is not good 14:51:03 http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1522 14:51:27 http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1025 14:53:06 http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=892 14:53:21 892 is pending - discussed and agreed to add criterion to 1.4 14:53:30 LS: the functional outcome of accessble text is that a AT can parse it 14:53:43 mc: but not all users have AT 14:54:26 892 - proposed but not discussed 14:56:01 mc: font typface ans size are different SC 14:56:15 s/and/ans 14:56:42 js: do we need a new sc 14:57:10 js: new guideline about text 14:57:40 mc: propose new guideline with 2 SC at least (mentioned here) 14:58:07 action: john and michael propose new guideline re: text 14:58:31 -Chris_Ridpath 14:58:32 bg: the next one falls under that as well, (px) 14:58:34 ChrisR has left #wai-wcag 14:59:49 advantage to GL about text: provides home for many techniques 15:00:00 action 2 = john and michael propose new guideline re: text and update issues 728, 827, 1012, 1013 as appropriate 15:00:10 and def of 'text' 15:00:51 bg: selecting individual characters or lines, maps to 1.3 15:01:00 mc: sounds like CSS tutorial 15:01:31 wc: accessble drop cap instead of an image 15:02:49 bc:purly decoration and emphisis 15:03:08 s/and/and not 15:03:39 js: drop cap is not symanitic 15:04:54 wc: then this a visual design thingy, that we were talking about earlier 15:05:42 s/thingy/task 15:06:11 -Lisa_Seeman 15:06:51 mc: most drop caps after 1500AD the experience is not significant 15:07:28 we need an sc for incunabula 15:08:14 bc: unless css is not in your baseline 15:08:35 bc: then it would be image with text alt 15:09:14 js: there are probably people doing cool stuff with this who we could reference 15:12:58 bg: currently mapped to 4.1 and 1.3 IBM public review asks for more examples and information 15:14:07 wc: could relate to 2.4 depending what is done with style sheets 15:14:18 js: could map to 3.2 also 15:14:44 wc: satisfies a variety of needs 15:15:29 wc: could map to 4.2 because we are providing a fallback alternative, 4.2 is the only place we talk about alternative mechanisms 15:17:13 wc: the questin came back in Japan, in ENgland, david sloan relying on printing things, wanted to know if it covered print, I don't think it's in our scope 15:18:08 bc: big can of worms all the ways that deal with media types etc 15:18:24 wc: maybe just get rid of it, no use case 15:19:25 bg: delete it for now??? 15:19:39 mc: yupa 15:19:43 4. * Media types - deleted for now 15:20:00 resolution: delete 4. * Media types - for now. follow css spec. 15:21:26 css 4.1 15:21:31 borders 15:22:16 Michael has joined #wai-wcag 15:23:10 bg:borders can be useful for highlighting stuff without color, if we update the technique to deal with color separation can put it here 15:23:10 action: john find old sc abt using presentation to support understanding 15:25:24 bg:if mapped to 1.3, it would probably go to color but that's not really what this technique is about, but otherwise no mapping 15:26:08 mc: could go into resurrected sc using presentation to support understanding 15:26:37 older guideline was "Checkpoint 3.2 Emphasize structure through presentation(s), positioning, and labels." - http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-WCAG20-20020822/#use-style-to-emphasize 15:27:28 even older version from 2001 "Checkpoint 3.2 Emphasize structure through presentation, positioning, and labels." - http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-WCAG20-20010824/#use-style-to-emphasize 15:27:38 (more detail under it) 15:27:55 BG: don't think it maps to 1.3, not about structure, 15:28:24 js: could go under, visual design as per wendy's suggestion of a new task about vsual design 15:30:45 bg: task is marking document symantics, optional techniques could be highlighting them or styling them 15:32:06 wc: in guide we good give concepts, in techniques doc 15:32:16 in tech doc get more specific 15:32:52 wc: the sufficient tecnique is to use fieldset, but there are optional techniqes 15:33:15 mc: we cannot creat a sc about visual design so have to map it ther 15:33:28 s/mc/wc 15:34:25 js: al gilman posted class=change etc 15:35:26 js: progressive enhancement start with basics and then add for more equiped browsers 15:35:59 mc: why not have sc about visual layout, i,e cognitive 15:36:09 wc: tons of freedom of expression issues 15:36:14 leasa has joined #wai-wcag 15:36:32 js: we'll get beat up if we try that 15:37:24 js: they belong under 3.1 and 3.2, I will find a way to recoperate a way to link presentation to undersanding 15:37:50 mc: I could live wiht that 15:38:33 wc: caution about effort into new guidelines, I'm looking for ways to use what we have 15:39:39 js: yeah, we need a guideline, that deals with the inacurate assumption about text being percievble but I don't want to proliferate guideline 15:41:48 wc: why don't we say borders maps best to 3.1 because it makes it easier to coprehend 15:43:09 mc: ok let's check in should we move to 2.5??? 15:43:34 zakim, close this item 15:43:34 agendum 2 closed 15:43:35 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:43:37 3. First review of 2.5 [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0542.html via Michael] 15:43:40 perhaps a technique around the 75 choices etc... 15:43:41 zakim, next item 15:43:41 agendum 3. "First review of 2.5" taken up [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0542.html] 15:44:20 bg: not a lot to talk about in 2.5 15:46:08 ben has left #wai-wcag 15:46:48 http://www.eramp.com/david/general/ 15:52:08 bg: I won't be here for the frst hour next week 15:52:32 mc: I will contact people for homework for f2f 15:52:38 -Becky_Gibson 15:52:39 -Michael_Cooper 15:52:40 -Wendy 15:52:41 -Dave_MacDonald 15:52:42 -Ben 15:52:43 RRSAgent, make log world 15:52:43 -Christophe_Strobbe 15:52:47 -John_Slatin 15:52:48 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended 15:52:49 Attendees were Dave_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, John_Slatin, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Lisa_Seeman 15:53:17 RRSAgent, generate minutes 15:53:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy 15:59:27 Christophe has left #wai-wcag 16:33:38 zakim, bye 16:33:38 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 18:09:32 ben has joined #wai-wcag 18:11:16 Meeting: WCAG WG TTF telecon 18:11:29 RRSAgent, generate minutes 18:11:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy 18:15:16 RRSagent, bye 18:15:16 I see 3 open action items: 18:15:16 ACTION: David propose remapping of CSS techniques currently mapped to 4.2 [1] 18:15:16 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-23-38 18:15:16 ACTION: john and michael propose new guideline re: text and update issues 728, 827, 1012, 1013 as appropriate [2] 18:15:16 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-58-07 18:15:16 ACTION: john find old sc abt using presentation to support understanding [3] 18:15:16 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-23-10-1