IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-06-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:00 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-irc

13:59:13 [Michael]

chair: Michael

13:59:27 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

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+Dave_MacDonald

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13:59:41 [Michael]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0635.html

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13:59:48 [David]

test

14:00:35 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

14:00:36 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

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+Michael_Cooper

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+Becky_Gibson

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+Ben

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+Christophe_Strobbe

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+John_Slatin

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+Wendy

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+[IPcaller]

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14:04:20 [Zakim]

+??P31

14:04:33 [Michael]

zakim, [ipcaller] is Chris_Ridpath

14:04:33 [Zakim]

+Chris_Ridpath; got it

14:04:48 [leasa]

or me

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wendy has joined #wai-wcag

14:04:54 [Michael]

zakim, ??P31 is Lisa_Seeman

14:04:54 [Zakim]

+Lisa_Seeman; got it

14:05:00 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:05:00 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, John_Slatin, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Lisa_Seeman

14:05:13 [wendy]

agenda?

14:05:46 [Becky]

scribe: Becky

14:06:05 [Becky]

mc: agenda is issue review

14:06:18 [Becky]

mc: agenda for f2f will be posted soon - will be working session

14:06:28 [Becky]

mc: please sign up if planning to attend

14:07:04 [Becky]

bc: just published new GL draft with latest resolutions

14:07:53 [Becky]

mc: start with 4.2 css techs

14:08:10 [Michael]

zakim, take up item 1

14:08:10 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Continue review of 4.2" taken up [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0360.html via Michael]

14:08:54 [Becky]

dm: no clean hits for css techs for gl 4.2

14:10:33 [David_]

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14:10:51 [Becky]

bg: tech about using display:none and positioning to create invisible labels

14:11:00 [Becky]

js: have issues with display:none

14:11:24 [Becky]

mc: also have issues with display:none; also it is a tech to work around WCAG GL's that people don't like

14:11:39 [Becky]

dm: not sure this applies to 4.2

14:12:04 [Becky]

js: would put under 2.5 - avoiding error; or 1.3 - making structures percievable

14:12:16 [Becky]

dm: think both are better hits than 4.2

14:12:23 [Becky]

js: also touches on baseline

14:13:16 [leasa]

q+

14:13:36 [ben]

q+

14:13:37 [Becky]

js: think about mapping techniques to tasks and tasks to SC

14:14:32 [Michael]

ack leasa

14:15:08 [Michael]

ack ben

14:15:11 [Becky]

ls: curious how css techs map to people with learning disabilities

14:15:17 [Becky]

js: will get to when discuss 3.1

14:15:45 [Becky]

bc: a little hesitant about tasks mapping idea

14:15:55 [Becky]

mc: is this something to work out at f2f?

14:16:08 [jslatin]

action john Think about CSS techniques that help people with LD and cognitive/language issues

14:16:23 [Becky]

wc: am working on proposal to send to guide doc sub group

14:16:47 [leasa]

Can I jion John on that

14:16:50 [Becky]

wc: in guide declare whether techs are req. or optional for achieving task

14:18:06 [Becky]

mc: back to 4.2 issue summary

14:18:35 [Becky]

dm: don't think any of the css techs currently mapped to 4.2 as belonging there

14:18:49 [wendy]

q+ to ask "structure is SC, could task be 'designing a visual layout?'"

14:19:05 [Michael]

ack john

14:19:05 [wendy]

ack john

14:19:09 [Michael]

ack wendy

14:19:09 [Zakim]

wendy, you wanted to ask "structure is SC, could task be 'designing a visual layout?'"

14:19:31 [Becky]

js: 1.1 and 1.2 css techs seem to map to 3.2

14:19:54 [Becky]

wc: not all techs will directly map - for ex: creating a layout

14:20:29 [Michael]

ack john

14:20:39 [Becky]

wc: task is creating a visual layout - some techs will map to that

14:21:00 [Becky]

js: making structure visible might be task for GL 1.3

14:21:47 [Becky]

js: have concerns but certainly think it is worth pursuing

14:22:13 [wendy]

note to self: perhaps "designing visual layout" is part of an "application guide" and not guide doc level task?

14:22:13 [Becky]

mc: action is to flag these for followup later

14:22:35 [Becky]

dm: remove mapping to 4.2 and remap

14:22:47 [Becky]

dm: 5.5 goes to 1.3 or 2.5

14:22:56 [Becky]

dm: 1.1 and 1.2 goes to 3.2

14:23:10 [Becky]

dm: 5.2 goes to 1.3 or 3.2

14:23:38 [Michael]

action: David propose remapping of CSS techniques currently mapped to 4.2

14:23:46 [Becky]

ed note: format above is - css tech (x.y) goes to GL a.b

14:23:59 [Becky]

mc: move to scripting for 4.2

14:25:45 [Becky]

dm: issue is JS uris

14:25:54 [Becky]

bg: is baseline issue

14:27:56 [Becky]

ls: can set role

14:28:02 [Becky]

mc: but that is future

14:28:09 [Becky]

ls: works in Firefox now

14:28:37 [Becky]

prev. discussion was about form submits and use of js uris

14:28:48 [Becky]

dm: hearing that we want to discourage js uris

14:29:07 [Becky]

mc: yes - because it doesn't fallback but also is not a spec

14:30:02 [Becky]

dm: so maps to 4.1 since js uri is not in any "official" spec

14:30:39 [Becky]

dm: ques about how JAWS will handle these?

14:30:59 [Becky]

js: does handle in links list and seems to also handle events on a span

14:31:27 [Becky]

mc: propose mapping to 1.1 - and note that it baseline related

14:31:32 [Becky]

bg: why 1.1?

14:31:40 [Becky]

mc: because it is impossible to provide a fallback

14:32:03 [Becky]

js: think it is 4.1 or 4.2

14:32:08 [Becky]

mc: so keep at 4.2

14:33:04 [wendy]

2.2: Dynamic content generation

14:33:04 [Becky]

dm: need to mark it as a NOT to do tech

14:34:13 [wendy]

bg: can be used, but need to know how/what to do and not with XHTML.

14:35:14 [wendy]

bg: related to baseline

14:36:09 [Becky]

bg: need to decide how much information we want to provide - can use document.write accessiblity but we probably don't want to encourage it

14:37:11 [Becky]

js: so clarify based on baseline

14:38:24 [Becky]

js: basline is HTML 4.01 and scripting can use document.write carefully, if baseline is xhtml and script should use createElement

14:38:31 [wendy]

Why document.write() doesn't work in XML - http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1091626816&count=1

14:41:16 [Michael]

zakim, close this item

14:41:16 [Zakim]

agendum 1 closed

14:41:17 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:41:18 [Zakim]

2. Continue review of 1.3, [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0345.html via Michael]

14:41:22 [Michael]

zakim, take up next item

14:41:22 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Continue review of 1.3," taken up [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0345.html]

14:41:38 [Michael]

scribe: David_

14:41:45 [David_]

scribe: David_

14:42:40 [wendy]

Questions about classification of techniques:

14:42:53 [David_]

bg: questions about tables for layout mapping

14:43:35 [David_]

mc: we talked about this in the 2.4 discussion

14:44:22 [David_]

js: we decided that we reading order would be in 3.2

14:44:38 [David_]

mc: i believe this should be in 3.2

14:44:59 [David_]

bg: where does "summarizing data tale go

14:45:09 [David_]

s/tale/table

14:45:37 [David_]

mc: perhaps 2.4 cause helps navigation

14:45:42 [David_]

js: yup 2.4

14:46:36 [wendy]

Begin CSS Techniques Issues relating to GL 1.3

14:46:43 [David_]

bg: css, many are generally mapped to 1.3 with no sc, and many are best practises

14:47:37 [David_]

bc: this wouldn't exest if not for browsers quirks so its 4.2

14:47:59 [David_]

mc: but scalability is important

14:48:08 [David_]

bc: but its a repair technique

14:49:11 [David_]

wc: there are times to scale and times not to scale ie, borders, teaching people that content will be magnified, and what authors need to consider about that

14:50:45 [David_]

js: we need a sc for making text epercievable, we are making a default assumption that text is accessible, whihc is not good

14:51:03 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1522

14:51:27 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1025

14:53:06 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=892

14:53:21 [wendy]

892 is pending - discussed and agreed to add criterion to 1.4

14:53:30 [David_]

LS: the functional outcome of accessble text is that a AT can parse it

14:53:43 [David_]

mc: but not all users have AT

14:54:26 [wendy]

892 - proposed but not discussed

14:56:01 [David_]

mc: font typface ans size are different SC

14:56:15 [David_]

s/and/ans

14:56:42 [David_]

js: do we need a new sc

14:57:10 [David_]

js: new guideline about text

14:57:40 [David_]

mc: propose new guideline with 2 SC at least (mentioned here)

14:58:07 [wendy]

action: john and michael propose new guideline re: text

14:58:31 [Zakim]

-Chris_Ridpath

14:58:32 [David_]

bg: the next one falls under that as well, (px)

14:58:34 [ChrisR]

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14:59:49 [jslatin]

advantage to GL about text: provides home for many techniques

15:00:00 [Michael]

action 2 = john and michael propose new guideline re: text and update issues 728, 827, 1012, 1013 as appropriate

15:00:10 [jslatin]

and def of 'text'

15:00:51 [David_]

bg: selecting individual characters or lines, maps to 1.3

15:01:00 [David_]

mc: sounds like CSS tutorial

15:01:31 [David_]

wc: accessble drop cap instead of an image

15:02:49 [David_]

bc:purly decoration and emphisis

15:03:08 [David_]

s/and/and not

15:03:39 [David_]

js: drop cap is not symanitic

15:04:54 [David_]

wc: then this a visual design thingy, that we were talking about earlier

15:05:42 [wendy]

s/thingy/task

15:06:11 [Zakim]

-Lisa_Seeman

15:06:51 [David_]

mc: most drop caps after 1500AD the experience is not significant

15:07:28 [jslatin]

we need an sc for incunabula <grin>

15:08:14 [David_]

bc: unless css is not in your baseline

15:08:35 [David_]

bc: then it would be image with text alt

15:09:14 [David_]

js: there are probably people doing cool stuff with this who we could reference

15:12:58 [David_]

bg: currently mapped to 4.1 and 1.3 IBM public review asks for more examples and information

15:14:07 [David_]

wc: could relate to 2.4 depending what is done with style sheets

15:14:18 [David_]

js: could map to 3.2 also

15:14:44 [David_]

wc: satisfies a variety of needs

15:15:29 [David_]

wc: could map to 4.2 because we are providing a fallback alternative, 4.2 is the only place we talk about alternative mechanisms

15:17:13 [David_]

wc: the questin came back in Japan, in ENgland, david sloan relying on printing things, wanted to know if it covered print, I don't think it's in our scope

15:18:08 [David_]

bc: big can of worms all the ways that deal with media types etc

15:18:24 [David_]

wc: maybe just get rid of it, no use case

15:19:25 [David_]

bg: delete it for now???

15:19:39 [David_]

mc: yupa

15:19:43 [wendy]

4. * Media types - deleted for now

15:20:00 [wendy]

resolution: delete 4. * Media types - for now. follow css spec.

15:21:26 [David_]

css 4.1

15:21:31 [David_]

borders

15:22:16 [Michael]

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15:23:10 [David_]

bg:borders can be useful for highlighting stuff without color, if we update the technique to deal with color separation can put it here

15:23:10 [jslatin]

action: john find old sc abt using presentation to support understanding

15:25:24 [David_]

bg:if mapped to 1.3, it would probably go to color but that's not really what this technique is about, but otherwise no mapping

15:26:08 [David_]

mc: could go into resurrected sc using presentation to support understanding

15:26:37 [wendy]

older guideline was "Checkpoint 3.2 Emphasize structure through presentation(s), positioning, and labels." - http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-WCAG20-20020822/#use-style-to-emphasize

15:27:28 [wendy]

even older version from 2001 "Checkpoint 3.2 Emphasize structure through presentation, positioning, and labels." - http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-WCAG20-20010824/#use-style-to-emphasize

15:27:38 [wendy]

(more detail under it)

15:27:55 [David_]

BG: don't think it maps to 1.3, not about structure,

15:28:24 [David_]

js: could go under, visual design as per wendy's suggestion of a new task about vsual design

15:30:45 [David_]

bg: task is marking document symantics, optional techniques could be highlighting them or styling them

15:32:06 [David_]

wc: in guide we good give concepts, in techniques doc

15:32:16 [David_]

in tech doc get more specific

15:32:52 [David_]

wc: the sufficient tecnique is to use fieldset, but there are optional techniqes

15:33:15 [David_]

mc: we cannot creat a sc about visual design so have to map it ther

15:33:28 [David_]

s/mc/wc

15:34:25 [David_]

js: al gilman posted class=change etc

15:35:26 [David_]

js: progressive enhancement start with basics and then add for more equiped browsers

15:35:59 [David_]

mc: why not have sc about visual layout, i,e cognitive

15:36:09 [David_]

wc: tons of freedom of expression issues

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15:36:32 [David_]

js: we'll get beat up if we try that

15:37:24 [David_]

js: they belong under 3.1 and 3.2, I will find a way to recoperate a way to link presentation to undersanding

15:37:50 [David_]

mc: I could live wiht that

15:38:33 [David_]

wc: caution about effort into new guidelines, I'm looking for ways to use what we have

15:39:39 [David_]

js: yeah, we need a guideline, that deals with the inacurate assumption about text being percievble but I don't want to proliferate guideline

15:41:48 [David_]

wc: why don't we say borders maps best to 3.1 because it makes it easier to coprehend

15:43:09 [David_]

mc: ok let's check in should we move to 2.5???

15:43:34 [wendy]

zakim, close this item

15:43:34 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

15:43:35 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:43:37 [Zakim]

3. First review of 2.5 [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0542.html via Michael]

15:43:40 [David_]

perhaps a technique around the 75 choices etc...

15:43:41 [wendy]

zakim, next item

15:43:41 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "First review of 2.5" taken up [from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0542.html]

15:44:20 [David_]

bg: not a lot to talk about in 2.5

15:46:08 [ben]

ben has left #wai-wcag

15:46:48 [wendy]

http://www.eramp.com/david/general/

15:52:08 [David_]

bg: I won't be here for the frst hour next week

15:52:32 [David_]

mc: I will contact people for homework for f2f

15:52:38 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

15:52:39 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:52:40 [Zakim]

-Wendy

15:52:41 [Zakim]

-Dave_MacDonald

15:52:42 [Zakim]

-Ben

15:52:43 [wendy]

RRSAgent, make log world

15:52:43 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

15:52:47 [Zakim]

-John_Slatin

15:52:48 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:52:49 [Zakim]

Attendees were Dave_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, John_Slatin, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Lisa_Seeman

15:53:17 [wendy]

RRSAgent, generate minutes

15:53:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy

15:59:27 [Christophe]

Christophe has left #wai-wcag

16:33:38 [wendy]

zakim, bye

16:33:38 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

18:09:32 [ben]

ben has joined #wai-wcag

18:11:16 [wendy]

Meeting: WCAG WG TTF telecon

18:11:29 [wendy]

RRSAgent, generate minutes

18:11:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy

18:15:16 [wendy]

RRSagent, bye

18:15:16 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items:

18:15:16 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: David propose remapping of CSS techniques currently mapped to 4.2 [1]

18:15:16 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-23-38

18:15:16 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: john and michael propose new guideline re: text and update issues 728, 827, 1012, 1013 as appropriate [2]

18:15:16 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-58-07

18:15:16 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: john find old sc abt using presentation to support understanding [3]

18:15:16 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-23-10-1