IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-06-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:00 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:59:13 [Michael]
chair: Michael
13:59:27 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
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14:01:02 [Zakim]
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14:04:20 [Zakim]
14:04:33 [Michael]
zakim, [ipcaller] is Chris_Ridpath
14:04:33 [Zakim]
+Chris_Ridpath; got it
14:04:48 [leasa]
or me
14:04:48 [wendy]
wendy has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:54 [Michael]
zakim, ??P31 is Lisa_Seeman
14:04:54 [Zakim]
+Lisa_Seeman; got it
14:05:00 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:05:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, John_Slatin, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Lisa_Seeman
14:05:13 [wendy]
14:05:46 [Becky]
scribe: Becky
14:06:05 [Becky]
mc: agenda is issue review
14:06:18 [Becky]
mc: agenda for f2f will be posted soon - will be working session
14:06:28 [Becky]
mc: please sign up if planning to attend
14:07:04 [Becky]
bc: just published new GL draft with latest resolutions
14:07:53 [Becky]
mc: start with 4.2 css techs
14:08:10 [Michael]
zakim, take up item 1
14:08:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Continue review of 4.2" taken up [from via Michael]
14:08:54 [Becky]
dm: no clean hits for css techs for gl 4.2
14:10:33 [David_]
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14:10:51 [Becky]
bg: tech about using display:none and positioning to create invisible labels
14:11:00 [Becky]
js: have issues with display:none
14:11:24 [Becky]
mc: also have issues with display:none; also it is a tech to work around WCAG GL's that people don't like
14:11:39 [Becky]
dm: not sure this applies to 4.2
14:12:04 [Becky]
js: would put under 2.5 - avoiding error; or 1.3 - making structures percievable
14:12:16 [Becky]
dm: think both are better hits than 4.2
14:12:23 [Becky]
js: also touches on baseline
14:13:16 [leasa]
14:13:36 [ben]
14:13:37 [Becky]
js: think about mapping techniques to tasks and tasks to SC
14:14:32 [Michael]
ack leasa
14:15:08 [Michael]
ack ben
14:15:11 [Becky]
ls: curious how css techs map to people with learning disabilities
14:15:17 [Becky]
js: will get to when discuss 3.1
14:15:45 [Becky]
bc: a little hesitant about tasks mapping idea
14:15:55 [Becky]
mc: is this something to work out at f2f?
14:16:08 [jslatin]
action john Think about CSS techniques that help people with LD and cognitive/language issues
14:16:23 [Becky]
wc: am working on proposal to send to guide doc sub group
14:16:47 [leasa]
Can I jion John on that
14:16:50 [Becky]
wc: in guide declare whether techs are req. or optional for achieving task
14:18:06 [Becky]
mc: back to 4.2 issue summary
14:18:35 [Becky]
dm: don't think any of the css techs currently mapped to 4.2 as belonging there
14:18:49 [wendy]
q+ to ask "structure is SC, could task be 'designing a visual layout?'"
14:19:05 [Michael]
ack john
14:19:05 [wendy]
ack john
14:19:09 [Michael]
ack wendy
14:19:09 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to ask "structure is SC, could task be 'designing a visual layout?'"
14:19:31 [Becky]
js: 1.1 and 1.2 css techs seem to map to 3.2
14:19:54 [Becky]
wc: not all techs will directly map - for ex: creating a layout
14:20:29 [Michael]
ack john
14:20:39 [Becky]
wc: task is creating a visual layout - some techs will map to that
14:21:00 [Becky]
js: making structure visible might be task for GL 1.3
14:21:47 [Becky]
js: have concerns but certainly think it is worth pursuing
14:22:13 [wendy]
note to self: perhaps "designing visual layout" is part of an "application guide" and not guide doc level task?
14:22:13 [Becky]
mc: action is to flag these for followup later
14:22:35 [Becky]
dm: remove mapping to 4.2 and remap
14:22:47 [Becky]
dm: 5.5 goes to 1.3 or 2.5
14:22:56 [Becky]
dm: 1.1 and 1.2 goes to 3.2
14:23:10 [Becky]
dm: 5.2 goes to 1.3 or 3.2
14:23:38 [Michael]
action: David propose remapping of CSS techniques currently mapped to 4.2
14:23:46 [Becky]
ed note: format above is - css tech (x.y) goes to GL a.b
14:23:59 [Becky]
mc: move to scripting for 4.2
14:25:45 [Becky]
dm: issue is JS uris
14:25:54 [Becky]
bg: is baseline issue
14:27:56 [Becky]
ls: can set role
14:28:02 [Becky]
mc: but that is future
14:28:09 [Becky]
ls: works in Firefox now
14:28:37 [Becky]
prev. discussion was about form submits and use of js uris
14:28:48 [Becky]
dm: hearing that we want to discourage js uris
14:29:07 [Becky]
mc: yes - because it doesn't fallback but also is not a spec
14:30:02 [Becky]
dm: so maps to 4.1 since js uri is not in any "official" spec
14:30:39 [Becky]
dm: ques about how JAWS will handle these?
14:30:59 [Becky]
js: does handle in links list and seems to also handle events on a span
14:31:27 [Becky]
mc: propose mapping to 1.1 - and note that it baseline related
14:31:32 [Becky]
bg: why 1.1?
14:31:40 [Becky]
mc: because it is impossible to provide a fallback
14:32:03 [Becky]
js: think it is 4.1 or 4.2
14:32:08 [Becky]
mc: so keep at 4.2
14:33:04 [wendy]
2.2: Dynamic content generation
14:33:04 [Becky]
dm: need to mark it as a NOT to do tech
14:34:13 [wendy]
bg: can be used, but need to know how/what to do and not with XHTML.
14:35:14 [wendy]
bg: related to baseline
14:36:09 [Becky]
bg: need to decide how much information we want to provide - can use document.write accessiblity but we probably don't want to encourage it
14:37:11 [Becky]
js: so clarify based on baseline
14:38:24 [Becky]
js: basline is HTML 4.01 and scripting can use document.write carefully, if baseline is xhtml and script should use createElement
14:38:31 [wendy]
Why document.write() doesn't work in XML -
14:41:16 [Michael]
zakim, close this item
14:41:16 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
14:41:17 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:41:18 [Zakim]
2. Continue review of 1.3, [from via Michael]
14:41:22 [Michael]
zakim, take up next item
14:41:22 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Continue review of 1.3," taken up [from]
14:41:38 [Michael]
scribe: David_
14:41:45 [David_]
scribe: David_
14:42:40 [wendy]
Questions about classification of techniques:
14:42:53 [David_]
bg: questions about tables for layout mapping
14:43:35 [David_]
mc: we talked about this in the 2.4 discussion
14:44:22 [David_]
js: we decided that we reading order would be in 3.2
14:44:38 [David_]
mc: i believe this should be in 3.2
14:44:59 [David_]
bg: where does "summarizing data tale go
14:45:09 [David_]
14:45:37 [David_]
mc: perhaps 2.4 cause helps navigation
14:45:42 [David_]
js: yup 2.4
14:46:36 [wendy]
Begin CSS Techniques Issues relating to GL 1.3
14:46:43 [David_]
bg: css, many are generally mapped to 1.3 with no sc, and many are best practises
14:47:37 [David_]
bc: this wouldn't exest if not for browsers quirks so its 4.2
14:47:59 [David_]
mc: but scalability is important
14:48:08 [David_]
bc: but its a repair technique
14:49:11 [David_]
wc: there are times to scale and times not to scale ie, borders, teaching people that content will be magnified, and what authors need to consider about that
14:50:45 [David_]
js: we need a sc for making text epercievable, we are making a default assumption that text is accessible, whihc is not good
14:51:03 [wendy]
14:51:27 [wendy]
14:53:06 [wendy]
14:53:21 [wendy]
892 is pending - discussed and agreed to add criterion to 1.4
14:53:30 [David_]
LS: the functional outcome of accessble text is that a AT can parse it
14:53:43 [David_]
mc: but not all users have AT
14:54:26 [wendy]
892 - proposed but not discussed
14:56:01 [David_]
mc: font typface ans size are different SC
14:56:15 [David_]
14:56:42 [David_]
js: do we need a new sc
14:57:10 [David_]
js: new guideline about text
14:57:40 [David_]
mc: propose new guideline with 2 SC at least (mentioned here)
14:58:07 [wendy]
action: john and michael propose new guideline re: text
14:58:31 [Zakim]
14:58:32 [David_]
bg: the next one falls under that as well, (px)
14:58:34 [ChrisR]
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14:59:49 [jslatin]
advantage to GL about text: provides home for many techniques
15:00:00 [Michael]
action 2 = john and michael propose new guideline re: text and update issues 728, 827, 1012, 1013 as appropriate
15:00:10 [jslatin]
and def of 'text'
15:00:51 [David_]
bg: selecting individual characters or lines, maps to 1.3
15:01:00 [David_]
mc: sounds like CSS tutorial
15:01:31 [David_]
wc: accessble drop cap instead of an image
15:02:49 [David_]
bc:purly decoration and emphisis
15:03:08 [David_]
s/and/and not
15:03:39 [David_]
js: drop cap is not symanitic
15:04:54 [David_]
wc: then this a visual design thingy, that we were talking about earlier
15:05:42 [wendy]
15:06:11 [Zakim]
15:06:51 [David_]
mc: most drop caps after 1500AD the experience is not significant
15:07:28 [jslatin]
we need an sc for incunabula <grin>
15:08:14 [David_]
bc: unless css is not in your baseline
15:08:35 [David_]
bc: then it would be image with text alt
15:09:14 [David_]
js: there are probably people doing cool stuff with this who we could reference
15:12:58 [David_]
bg: currently mapped to 4.1 and 1.3 IBM public review asks for more examples and information
15:14:07 [David_]
wc: could relate to 2.4 depending what is done with style sheets
15:14:18 [David_]
js: could map to 3.2 also
15:14:44 [David_]
wc: satisfies a variety of needs
15:15:29 [David_]
wc: could map to 4.2 because we are providing a fallback alternative, 4.2 is the only place we talk about alternative mechanisms
15:17:13 [David_]
wc: the questin came back in Japan, in ENgland, david sloan relying on printing things, wanted to know if it covered print, I don't think it's in our scope
15:18:08 [David_]
bc: big can of worms all the ways that deal with media types etc
15:18:24 [David_]
wc: maybe just get rid of it, no use case
15:19:25 [David_]
bg: delete it for now???
15:19:39 [David_]
mc: yupa
15:19:43 [wendy]
4. * Media types - deleted for now
15:20:00 [wendy]
resolution: delete 4. * Media types - for now. follow css spec.
15:21:26 [David_]
css 4.1
15:21:31 [David_]
15:22:16 [Michael]
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15:23:10 [David_]
bg:borders can be useful for highlighting stuff without color, if we update the technique to deal with color separation can put it here
15:23:10 [jslatin]
action: john find old sc abt using presentation to support understanding
15:25:24 [David_]
bg:if mapped to 1.3, it would probably go to color but that's not really what this technique is about, but otherwise no mapping
15:26:08 [David_]
mc: could go into resurrected sc using presentation to support understanding
15:26:37 [wendy]
older guideline was "Checkpoint 3.2 Emphasize structure through presentation(s), positioning, and labels." -
15:27:28 [wendy]
even older version from 2001 "Checkpoint 3.2 Emphasize structure through presentation, positioning, and labels." -
15:27:38 [wendy]
(more detail under it)
15:27:55 [David_]
BG: don't think it maps to 1.3, not about structure,
15:28:24 [David_]
js: could go under, visual design as per wendy's suggestion of a new task about vsual design
15:30:45 [David_]
bg: task is marking document symantics, optional techniques could be highlighting them or styling them
15:32:06 [David_]
wc: in guide we good give concepts, in techniques doc
15:32:16 [David_]
in tech doc get more specific
15:32:52 [David_]
wc: the sufficient tecnique is to use fieldset, but there are optional techniqes
15:33:15 [David_]
mc: we cannot creat a sc about visual design so have to map it ther
15:33:28 [David_]
15:34:25 [David_]
js: al gilman posted class=change etc
15:35:26 [David_]
js: progressive enhancement start with basics and then add for more equiped browsers
15:35:59 [David_]
mc: why not have sc about visual layout, i,e cognitive
15:36:09 [David_]
wc: tons of freedom of expression issues
15:36:14 [leasa]
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15:36:32 [David_]
js: we'll get beat up if we try that
15:37:24 [David_]
js: they belong under 3.1 and 3.2, I will find a way to recoperate a way to link presentation to undersanding
15:37:50 [David_]
mc: I could live wiht that
15:38:33 [David_]
wc: caution about effort into new guidelines, I'm looking for ways to use what we have
15:39:39 [David_]
js: yeah, we need a guideline, that deals with the inacurate assumption about text being percievble but I don't want to proliferate guideline
15:41:48 [David_]
wc: why don't we say borders maps best to 3.1 because it makes it easier to coprehend
15:43:09 [David_]
mc: ok let's check in should we move to 2.5???
15:43:34 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
15:43:34 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
15:43:35 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:43:37 [Zakim]
3. First review of 2.5 [from via Michael]
15:43:40 [David_]
perhaps a technique around the 75 choices etc...
15:43:41 [wendy]
zakim, next item
15:43:41 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "First review of 2.5" taken up [from]
15:44:20 [David_]
bg: not a lot to talk about in 2.5
15:46:08 [ben]
ben has left #wai-wcag
15:46:48 [wendy]
15:52:08 [David_]
bg: I won't be here for the frst hour next week
15:52:32 [David_]
mc: I will contact people for homework for f2f
15:52:38 [Zakim]
15:52:39 [Zakim]
15:52:40 [Zakim]
15:52:41 [Zakim]
15:52:42 [Zakim]
15:52:43 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
15:52:43 [Zakim]
15:52:47 [Zakim]
15:52:48 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:52:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Dave_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Christophe_Strobbe, John_Slatin, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Lisa_Seeman
15:53:17 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
15:53:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate wendy
15:59:27 [Christophe]
Christophe has left #wai-wcag
16:33:38 [wendy]
zakim, bye
16:33:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
18:09:32 [ben]
ben has joined #wai-wcag
18:11:16 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG TTF telecon
18:11:29 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
18:11:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate wendy
18:15:16 [wendy]
RRSagent, bye
18:15:16 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
18:15:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: David propose remapping of CSS techniques currently mapped to 4.2 [1]
18:15:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:15:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john and michael propose new guideline re: text and update issues 728, 827, 1012, 1013 as appropriate [2]
18:15:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:15:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john find old sc abt using presentation to support understanding [3]
18:15:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in