IRC log of swbp on 2005-05-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:33 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swbp

13:51:33 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-irc

13:59:36 [benadida]

benadida has joined #swbp

14:00:46 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started

14:00:53 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:00:54 [danbri]

hi ben

14:01:00 [benadida]

Hi Dan

14:01:21 [danbri]

danbri has changed the topic to: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005May/0046.html

14:01:26 [benadida]

alright, I am a Zakim newbie still (Ralph usually helps me), so what do we need to do to start logging and all? ah thank yhou

14:01:32 [danbri]

its all in hand

14:01:57 [danbri]

rrsagent, bookmark?

14:01:57 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-irc#T14-01-57

14:02:00 [danbri]

we're logging

14:02:04 [danbri]

zakim, who is on the call?

14:02:04 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ben_Adida

14:02:14 [danbri]

who are we expecting today?

14:02:21 [benadida]

Steven

14:02:34 [benadida]

(yes, we miss you Ralph)

14:04:42 [benadida]

Steven is on his way in

14:04:59 [Zakim]

+Danbri

14:05:21 [Steven]

Steven has joined #swbp

14:05:30 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-bhome

14:05:30 [Zakim]

I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for steven-bhome

14:05:36 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-home

14:05:36 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:05:38 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:05:50 [MarkB_]

MarkB_ has joined #swbp

14:06:30 [Zakim]

+??P12

14:06:33 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

14:06:33 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

14:07:12 [danbri]

steven: last week I keynoted at News Summit in Amsterdam

14:07:42 [danbri]

...'set cat amongst the pigeons' (I'm told), in that their doc formats hardwire metadata vocabs, so need revision for new properties.

14:07:51 [danbri]

...very rigid

14:08:04 [danbri]

...nice thing about rdf/a is that you can add new metadata at will

14:08:21 [danbri]

...i'll be talking to the iptc agm next week in london, on same topic

14:08:30 [danbri]

...also talked at xtech conference

14:09:09 [danbri]

[...]

14:10:09 [danbri]

q+

14:14:50 [danbri]

q-

14:15:13 [danbri]

I had some agenda fodder in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005May/0047.html

14:15:27 [danbri]

1) grddl/xslt'ing rdf/a

14:15:32 [danbri]

2) rdf links

14:19:09 [danbri]

ben: thx for rdfs... would be good to get jeremy to take a look

14:19:12 [danbri]

...steven too?

14:19:44 [benadida]

ACTION: Steven and Ben to take a look at the RDFS DanBri put together

14:22:18 [danbri]

danbri: some fiddly decisions... what namespace uri, what syntax to use, etc (see comments in the rdfs)

14:22:31 [danbri]

steven: doesn't really fit in the html doc itself

14:22:37 [danbri]

ben: could make it a tf note

14:23:01 [danbri]

steven: part of the reasoning behind this is.... much as with HTML 4 profile, we defined things separately

14:23:16 [danbri]

...since detail could change, and be new version

14:23:37 [danbri]

steven: change to the thing at the namespace

14:24:29 [danbri]

...mechanism is extensible

14:24:37 [danbri]

...after CR, we won't add unqualified properties

14:24:41 [danbri]

...need to use a new ns

14:26:39 [danbri]

steven: alternate relationship... can specify conditions

14:26:47 [danbri]

...by language, media type, ...

14:27:37 [danbri]

danbri: would be nice if we could derrive my doc from your doc via xslt

14:27:39 [danbri]

mark: yup

14:28:12 [danbri]

ben: is this separate doc just an rdfization of the htm

14:28:16 [danbri]

danbri: that's the intent

14:28:28 [danbri]

(I tried not to get too creative... but there are some points that need review)

14:30:16 [danbri]

danbri: i wouldn't be averse to pushing this out as a note

14:30:27 [danbri]

steve: if you want to take our stuff and reprsenet it as rdf, the html would be happy

14:30:44 [danbri]

ben: could be a perfect candidate for a tf note

14:31:52 [danbri]

steven: am suprised there's no standard notion of 'document', so you had to invent your own

14:32:26 [danbri]

danbri: i was trying to avoid ratholes

14:33:24 [danbri]

danbir: we can't appeal to Docuemnt=xml Document

14:33:32 [danbri]

mark: stylesheets etc...

14:33:36 [danbri]

...also there are other relationships

14:33:38 [danbri]

...js etc

14:33:50 [danbri]

...also <style src= attribs, or <script ...

14:34:16 [danbri]

therefore when we define Document, we should be clear it isn't just XHTML2 or XML doc

14:34:19 [danbri]

ben: moving on

14:34:33 [danbri]

...i'll look into this being a tf note

14:34:42 [danbri]

ben: Integration with GRDDL

14:35:20 [danbri]

...steven, mark... could you consider adding something to the namespace document for xhtml2 to point to the XSLT that turns XHTML2 RDF/A into RDF/XML?

14:35:27 [danbri]

(conventions per the GRDDL note)

14:35:48 [danbri]

http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/2005/SUBM-grddl-20050516/ has details

14:36:06 [danbri]

http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/2005/SUBM-grddl-20050516/#ns-bind

14:36:30 [danbri]

danbri: your plans for the xhtml2 ns doc?

14:36:33 [danbri]

steven: whatever tim said!

14:36:37 [danbri]

some xhtml doc there

14:38:03 [danbri]

ben: right now you don't plan to have a schema doc there?

14:38:26 [danbri]

...

14:38:36 [danbri]

mark: looking at various schema languages, so complicated

14:39:26 [danbri]

steven: we'd have to look at how you do it in some schema language

14:39:30 [danbri]

s/some/other/

14:40:01 [danbri]

(some discussion of use of some modules)

14:40:10 [danbri]

mark: eg you could write an atom schema that importted bits of xhtml2

14:40:50 [danbri]

(detail of how GRDDL interacts with schema modularity)

14:41:58 [danbri]

mark: if i made an xhtml2rdf transform, what's the difference between that an grddl?

14:42:06 [danbri]

ben: same thing, really

14:42:24 [danbri]

mark: we'll have to make that xslt anyway

14:42:30 [danbri]

q+

14:43:08 [benadida]

ack danbri

14:44:22 [danbri]

mark: I had an xslt early on... but we've changed the architecture since

14:44:28 [danbri]

...less complex nesting now

14:44:36 [danbri]

...only outstanding thing now is qname processing

14:45:07 [danbri]

...my proposal was to write functions that echo the forthcoming xpath2 functions which manage qname-based strings

14:45:16 [danbri]

ben: lets bring the xslt people back together

14:45:26 [danbri]

...this is the right point

14:45:29 [danbri]

danbri: +1

14:46:02 [danbri]

mark: i don't have much time, but ... i'm inclined to have a go, as a final test

14:46:08 [danbri]

q+ to note re testing

14:46:20 [danbri]

mark: edge cases only became obvious after writing the xslt last time

14:47:38 [danbri]

action: mark talk with jeremy on public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf re xslt parser for xhtml2/rdf notation

14:48:02 [danbri]

q-

14:49:05 [danbri]

danbri: getting that xslt will improve testing, (a) as we'll have a focal point for defining the mapping (b) many more people can explore test cases, queries etc.

14:49:10 [danbri]

ben: bnodes...

14:49:19 [danbri]

mark: i just posted my summary of the situation

14:49:50 [danbri]

... steven and i aren't completely against the 2 attribute solution

14:50:02 [danbri]

...but the problem (URIs/IRIs) really lies in RDF's world, not in the markup

14:50:21 [danbri]

...and you have this quirky situation of trying to id a node without using global IDs

14:50:29 [danbri]

...how do you hide that? an rdf/uri problem

14:50:32 [danbri]

...not that we ignore it

14:50:42 [danbri]

...but adding more attribs takes away from some of the simplicity

14:50:45 [Steven]

zakim, mute danbri

14:50:45 [Zakim]

Danbri should now be muted

14:51:23 [danbri]

...what we have now is very simple, based on earlier html conventions

14:51:47 [danbri]

...adding new attribs to encode different ways of identifying makes things more complex

14:52:09 [danbri]

q+ to suggest the issue will be encountered in terms of attribute content, not attribute name

14:52:24 [danbri]

mark: the moment you name something with an ID, you get annoying situation that you can't talk about it yourself

14:52:29 [danbri]

...the outside world can talk about it

14:52:50 [danbri]

...but ID="x" prevents me from making global statements

14:52:53 [danbri]

...doesn't work

14:52:58 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005May/0049.html

14:52:59 [danbri]

...so i've come back to xpointer soln

14:53:12 [danbri]

...not sure if the objections to it were on basis of what it's really arguing

14:53:18 [danbri]

...comments from dan and jjc

14:53:25 [danbri]

jjc - doesn't like it aesthetically

14:53:37 [danbri]

...i do like it, as takes things into realm of uris

14:53:56 [danbri]

...dan's msg is abuot it creating confusion

14:54:08 [danbri]

mark: to be clear, that the xpointer be dereferenced

14:54:14 [danbri]

...we don't store that uri as a triple

14:54:29 [danbri]

...the serializer shoudl go off and find the node with the id=x, and then genrate a local bnode for it

14:54:48 [danbri]

...cloaked request to the serializer to hide this node

14:55:00 [danbri]

...generate a uri that's different to the one you'd normally generate

14:55:32 [Steven]

q+ to say there doesn't have to be an id

14:56:00 [danbri]

mark: you get a local name for that node

14:56:45 [danbri]

(is this a skolem function, or do i have my terminology wrong?)

14:57:01 [benadida]

zakim, ack danbri

14:57:01 [Zakim]

unmuting Danbri

14:57:02 [Zakim]

danbri, you wanted to suggest the issue will be encountered in terms of attribute content, not attribute name

14:57:04 [Zakim]

I see Steven on the speaker queue

15:01:59 [danbri]

<link about="#some(a)" rel="foaf:mbox" href="dan@example.com" />

15:01:59 [danbri]

<link about="#some(b)" rel="foaf:mbox" href="libby@example.net" />

15:02:01 [danbri]

versus

15:02:04 [danbri]

<link about="#some(a)" rel="foaf:mbox" href="dan@example.com" />

15:02:09 [danbri]

<link about="foo#some(b)" rel="foaf:mbox" href="libby@example.net" />

15:15:33 [benadida]

ACTION: Dan to summarize discussions about bnode on mailing list (fallback to Ben)

15:17:07 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:17:09 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

15:17:09 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:17:15 [benadida]

Dan, can you do the generation of meetings notes?

15:17:17 [Zakim]

-Danbri

15:17:18 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended

15:17:20 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ben_Adida, Danbri, Steven

15:17:23 [danbri]

zakim, please draft minutes

15:17:23 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'please draft minutes', danbri

15:17:30 [danbri]

rssagent, draft minutes

15:17:48 [danbri]

rrsagent, make minutes public

15:17:48 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', danbri. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:18:03 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

15:18:07 [danbri]

ah thx

15:18:11 [Steven]

and now:

15:18:16 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:18:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-minutes.html Steven

15:18:40 [danbri]

benadida, will http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-minutes.html do?

15:18:54 [benadida]

yes, that's good, I will rope Ralph into helping me pretty them up :)

15:20:01 [benadida]

benadida has left #swbp

15:28:01 [danbri]

danbri has left #swbp