0000-00-00T00:00:00Z Meeting: Data Access Working Group 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z Date: 31 May 2005 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z Chair: DanC 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z Scribe: EricP 2005-05-31T14:26:48Z -!- Zakim [rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30] has joined #dawg 2005-05-31T14:26:53Z Zakim, this will be dawg 2005-05-31T14:26:53Z ok, DanC; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 2005-05-31T14:27:15Z -!- kendall [Kendall@216.164.63.95] has joined #dawg 2005-05-31T14:27:40Z agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0265.html 2005-05-31T14:27:40Z * Zakim notes agendum 1 added 2005-05-31T14:27:45Z SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started 2005-05-31T14:27:50Z agenda + publishing results format, protocol 2005-05-31T14:27:50Z * Zakim notes agendum 2 added 2005-05-31T14:27:52Z +Kendall_Clark 2005-05-31T14:27:59Z agenda + issue fromUnionQuery 2005-05-31T14:27:59Z * Zakim notes agendum 3 added 2005-05-31T14:28:08Z agenda + issue: valueTesting 2005-05-31T14:28:08Z * Zakim notes agendum 4 added 2005-05-31T14:28:14Z +??P13 2005-05-31T14:28:14Z agenda + some comments 2005-05-31T14:28:16Z * Zakim notes agendum 5 added 2005-05-31T14:28:22Z agenda + issue wsdlAbstractProtocol 2005-05-31T14:28:22Z * Zakim notes agendum 6 added 2005-05-31T14:28:24Z Zakim, ??P13 is SaveB 2005-05-31T14:28:24Z +SaveB; got it 2005-05-31T14:28:26Z oops 2005-05-31T14:28:28Z Zakim, ??P13 is DaveB 2005-05-31T14:28:28Z I already had ??P13 as SaveB, DaveB 2005-05-31T14:28:31Z agenda + punctuationSyntax 2005-05-31T14:28:31Z * Zakim notes agendum 7 added 2005-05-31T14:28:36Z -!- Yoshio [chatzilla@128.30.52.28] has joined #dawg 2005-05-31T14:28:39Z agenda + Last Call schedule 2005-05-31T14:28:39Z * Zakim notes agendum 8 added 2005-05-31T14:28:40Z * ericP back 2005-05-31T14:28:57Z +Jeen_Broekstra 2005-05-31T14:28:57Z zakim, please dial ericP-617 2005-05-31T14:28:57Z ok, ericP; the call is being made 2005-05-31T14:28:58Z +EricP 2005-05-31T14:29:35Z zakim, mute me 2005-05-31T14:29:35Z Kendall_Clark should now be muted 2005-05-31T14:29:41Z * DaveB plays guess the noise 2005-05-31T14:29:42Z -!- JanneS [janne.saar@194.29.198.121] has joined #dawg 2005-05-31T14:30:07Z +Yoshio 2005-05-31T14:30:14Z * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS 2005-05-31T14:30:14Z * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made 2005-05-31T14:30:16Z +DanC 2005-05-31T14:30:35Z +??P24 2005-05-31T14:30:47Z zakim, ??P24 is AndyS 2005-05-31T14:30:47Z +AndyS; got it 2005-05-31T14:31:03Z * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone? 2005-05-31T14:31:03Z * Zakim sees on the phone: Kendall_Clark (muted), SaveB, Jeen_Broekstra, EricP, Yoshio, DanC, AndyS 2005-05-31T14:31:15Z Zakim, SaveB is DaveB 2005-05-31T14:31:15Z +DaveB; got it 2005-05-31T14:31:19Z +Kevin 2005-05-31T14:31:57Z +NickG 2005-05-31T14:32:04Z Zakim, NickG is SteveH 2005-05-31T14:32:04Z +SteveH; got it 2005-05-31T14:32:15Z I'm trying to call in... should be there soon enough 2005-05-31T14:32:29Z Zakim, take up agendum 1 2005-05-31T14:32:29Z agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0265.html" taken up [from DanC] 2005-05-31T14:33:19Z +??P27 2005-05-31T14:33:27Z Zakim, ??P27 is JanneS 2005-05-31T14:33:27Z +JanneS; got it 2005-05-31T14:33:29Z RESOLVED to accept minutes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0258.html 2005-05-31T14:33:32Z +??P21 2005-05-31T14:33:53Z * ericP tx danc 2005-05-31T14:34:44Z more the merrier :> 2005-05-31T14:35:11Z it's in last weeks minutes 2005-05-31T14:35:13Z Zakim, ??P21 is Souri 2005-05-31T14:35:13Z +Souri; got it 2005-05-31T14:35:15Z -Jeen_Broekstra 2005-05-31T14:35:18Z he already had to spell his name once :< 2005-05-31T14:35:39Z Zakim, who's on the phone? 2005-05-31T14:35:39Z On the phone I see Kendall_Clark (muted), DaveB, EricP, Yoshio, DanC, AndyS, Kevin, SteveH, JanneS, Souri 2005-05-31T14:36:11Z +??P14 2005-05-31T14:36:34Z zakim, ??P14 is JeenB 2005-05-31T14:36:34Z +JeenB; got it 2005-05-31T14:36:37Z (ah, so that's the magic, i haven't done my actions phrase: "such is life" -- now you tell us! :>) 2005-05-31T14:36:45Z -!- JosD [chatzilla@194.7.105.71] has joined #dawg 2005-05-31T14:36:48Z regrets Howard 2005-05-31T14:36:59Z I sent regrets, but I hereby unsend them. 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency) 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) 2005-05-31T14:37:08Z Zakim, next agendum 2005-05-31T14:37:08Z agendum 2. "publishing results format, protocol" taken up [from DanC] 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: EricP: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/ 1.25 + editorial notes from DaveB + check from Kendall 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z DONE 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: EricP to try out the "2 list of URIs" datasets design from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0440.html 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z DONE 2005-05-31T14:37:22Z zakim, unmute me 2005-05-31T14:37:22Z Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 2005-05-31T14:37:27Z sorry for the noise 2005-05-31T14:37:37Z this is comical 2005-05-31T14:38:14Z +??P28 2005-05-31T14:38:14Z KC: tx IanJ for help with the protocol publication 2005-05-31T14:38:36Z zakim, ??P28 is JosD 2005-05-31T14:38:36Z +JosD; got it 2005-05-31T14:39:50Z more xmly-lists e.g. xml-dev 2005-05-31T14:40:05Z & copy the comment lists, so they replyall to comments 2005-05-31T14:40:22Z Editors are encouraged to announce their specs 2005-05-31T14:40:22Z (god, freaking garbage pickup taking forever today) 2005-05-31T14:40:35Z Zakim, next agendum 2005-05-31T14:40:35Z agendum 3. "issue fromUnionQuery" taken up [from DanC] 2005-05-31T14:41:04Z ericP has written up some note: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/05-algae-graphs/ 2005-05-31T14:41:38Z $Date: 2005/05/31 18:31:24 $ 2005-05-31T14:45:44Z EricP: can a service have named graphs that don't come from FROM NAMED? AndyS: yes. 2005-05-31T14:46:26Z EricP: a service is never required to have something in a named graph that isn't in a background graph? DanC: right; service gets to pick which datasets to support 2005-05-31T14:47:03Z EricP: likewise, a service is never required to have something in the background that isn't in a name graph? DanC: right, again. 2005-05-31T14:47:10Z hmm, tricky to do that in the QL since you can only give FROM once, versus FROM NAMED many times 2005-05-31T14:48:39Z -!- SteveH [swh@152.78.190.242] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 2005-05-31T14:48:52Z SteveH: may need a test case because we'll give different answers on FROM and FROM NAMED. 2005-05-31T14:49:03Z DanC: but you won't be able to expose that in a single test. 2005-05-31T14:49:44Z that's the same w/ the protocol spec 2005-05-31T14:49:44Z DanC: what happens if you don't support FROM? 2005-05-31T14:50:02Z Andy: no. nothing outside the spec is described. 2005-05-31T14:50:08Z -!- SteveH [swh@152.78.190.242] has joined #dawg 2005-05-31T14:50:57Z semantic aggravator, indeed 2005-05-31T14:53:29Z Jos asked for FROM to be a merge 2005-05-31T14:53:42Z ooo, me too! 2005-05-31T14:53:53Z i wld support that as well, i think 2005-05-31T14:55:00Z was actually FROM FROM FROM 2005-05-31T14:55:01Z test case: dataset has , , ... query has FROM ... hmm... 2005-05-31T14:55:39Z I'd like to be able to say, in my implementation, that it won't execute a query against the specified RDF dataset. 2005-05-31T14:57:06Z +PatH 2005-05-31T14:57:08Z EricP: how about expanding the test case to say and are in the dataset and is lying around reachable. now execute this query (with a FROM in it) 2005-05-31T14:58:00Z -!- patH [phayes@65.212.118.4] has joined #dawg 2005-05-31T14:58:04Z hi pat 2005-05-31T14:58:08Z Souri: Do we have a way to say that some graphs are optional? 2005-05-31T14:58:13Z hi kendall. Sorry Im late. 2005-05-31T14:58:19Z DanC: I don't think we've considered it. 2005-05-31T14:58:48Z (hmm... protocol should perhaps have a "good question, but I don't care to answer it" thingy) 2005-05-31T14:58:58Z How about EITHER the dataset is given outside the query OR it is completely specified by FROM/FROM NAMED. 2005-05-31T14:59:27Z KendallC: I would like, as an implementor, to say no to the client in a way that it can understand. 2005-05-31T15:00:05Z ... distinguish between a broken impl and a "understood, but one execute". 2005-05-31T15:01:26Z DanC: been thinking about the mailing list search service. if you ask it for graphs outside of a constrained domain, you get a "darned if I know". 2005-05-31T15:02:17Z AndyS: I think we can define the errors without defining exactly when they occur. 2005-05-31T15:03:23Z * DaveB finds rq23 bug in Table 11.1: !A fn:not should return an xs:boolean not a numeric 2005-05-31T15:03:48Z [10] IDefaultGraphClause I ::= I'FROM' SourceSelector 2005-05-31T15:04:12Z [9] IDatasetClause I ::= I( DefaultGraphClause )? ( NamedGraphClause )* 2005-05-31T15:05:01Z ... and there is never more than one IDatasetClause 2005-05-31T15:07:34Z +1 to AFS's point 2005-05-31T15:07:51Z +1 from me for allowing multiple FROM URI and merging 2005-05-31T15:07:59Z +q to ask about straw poll for a generic "J'refuse" response type 2005-05-31T15:08:06Z use mention issues on http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ _ 2005-05-31T15:08:14Z q+ to ask about straw poll for a generic "J'refuse" response type 2005-05-31T15:08:14Z * Zakim sees kendall on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:08:19Z Will write an email to the list to write what I think I'm hearing 2005-05-31T15:08:23Z PROPOSED: to address fromUnionQuery ala http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.363 plus multiple FROMs allowed 2005-05-31T15:09:00Z DanC: the servers get to say how much entailment they do 2005-05-31T15:14:19Z We do not allow merge into NAMED graphs for this reason. 2005-05-31T15:14:30Z q+ 2005-05-31T15:14:30Z * Zakim sees kendall, afs on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:15:10Z i yield to andy in the queue; his comment is relevant here. 2005-05-31T15:15:25Z Souri: would the user get an explanation of an inferred graph? 2005-05-31T15:15:52Z * DanC tunes into the queue... 2005-05-31T15:15:53Z * DanC q? 2005-05-31T15:15:53Z * Zakim sees kendall, afs on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:15:53Z DanC: we had that as an issue, serviceDescriptions, but decided we wouldn't reach closure soon enough 2005-05-31T15:16:08Z danc: you should take andy next; i'm out of synch 2005-05-31T15:16:08Z * DanC notes the pun on "closure" ;-) 2005-05-31T15:16:21Z ba da bum 2005-05-31T15:16:25Z * DanC queue = afs, kendall 2005-05-31T15:16:41Z ack afs 2005-05-31T15:16:41Z * Zakim sees kendall on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:17:21Z PROPOSED: to address fromUnionQuery ala http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.363 plus multiple FROMs allowed 2005-05-31T15:17:44Z where the graphs identified by multiple froms are RDF merged to form teh default graph 2005-05-31T15:17:49Z I see 1.367 now 2005-05-31T15:18:15Z rather 1.367 2005-05-31T15:19:12Z eric: not ready 2005-05-31T15:19:18Z Steve: unhappy with the whole dataset thing 2005-05-31T15:21:13Z http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20050217/#queryDataset 2005-05-31T15:21:56Z PatH: query can say FROM , , ; query is answered w.r.t. a graph that contains at least , , 2005-05-31T15:22:44Z FROM WHERE { GRAPH { ?s ?p ?o } } 2005-05-31T15:23:53Z PathH: you are expected to read all of and match it 2005-05-31T15:23:54Z http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20041012/#source 2005-05-31T15:24:09Z 9 Querying the Origin of Statements of 12 Oct draft 2005-05-31T15:24:19Z See also: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2004Nov/0020.html 2005-05-31T15:25:46Z q+ to explore how the 12 Oct draft is different 2005-05-31T15:25:46Z * Zakim sees kendall, DanC on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:26:01Z q 2005-05-31T15:26:03Z err 2005-05-31T15:26:17Z ack kendall 2005-05-31T15:26:17Z kendall, you wanted to ask about straw poll for a generic "J'refuse" response type 2005-05-31T15:26:19Z * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:26:22Z q~ s/foo/bar/ 2005-05-31T15:26:39Z I think swh meant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0078 2005-05-31T15:27:13Z problems I found when implementing the default graph: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0078.html 2005-05-31T15:27:15Z "SPARQL: SOURCE is suboptimal" 0020 2005-05-31T15:27:23Z * DanC q+ SteveH to swap in 0078 2005-05-31T15:27:23Z * Zakim sees DanC, SteveH on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:27:28Z yes, thanks DaveB 2005-05-31T15:28:18Z PatH: I expect to be more available for the next month 2005-05-31T15:28:20Z zakim, mute me 2005-05-31T15:28:20Z Kendall_Clark should now be muted 2005-05-31T15:28:24Z So - Steve - this about data maintenance effects? 2005-05-31T15:28:35Z afs, yes 2005-05-31T15:28:35Z zakim, unmute me 2005-05-31T15:28:35Z Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 2005-05-31T15:29:00Z EricP: [...?] 2005-05-31T15:29:09Z AFS: but how do you say "from both of them but no others"? 2005-05-31T15:29:33Z "trust" is a total red herring IMO, which is neither here nor there. :> 2005-05-31T15:29:35Z * DanC is tempted to play my "I told you so" card about premature standardization of the whole SOURCE thing 2005-05-31T15:29:41Z GRAPH ?g {...} . FILTER ?g = x or y . GRAPH ?g { ...} ?? 2005-05-31T15:30:46Z ack danc 2005-05-31T15:30:46Z DanC, you wanted to explore how the 12 Oct draft is different 2005-05-31T15:30:47Z * Zakim sees SteveH on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:31:11Z zakim, mute me 2005-05-31T15:31:12Z Kendall_Clark should now be muted 2005-05-31T15:31:25Z data maintenance would be about changing UC&R? 2005-05-31T15:31:28Z zakim, unmute me 2005-05-31T15:31:28Z Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 2005-05-31T15:31:37Z kendall, ignore the T-word, think only of being able to control the sources used for answering. Then it makes sense. 2005-05-31T15:32:55Z EricP: yes, "dataset" is: an RDF graph where each triple is associated with zero or more URIs 2005-05-31T15:33:00Z path: okay, i can do that. and that's *all* i care about. but others... :> 2005-05-31T15:33:27Z * JosD looking at http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/sw-stack-2005.png and thinking that SPARQL and trust are there 2005-05-31T15:33:52Z * DanC q? 2005-05-31T15:33:52Z * Zakim sees SteveH on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:33:54Z ack steveh 2005-05-31T15:33:54Z SteveH, you wanted to swap in 0078 2005-05-31T15:33:55Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:34:05Z this seems a bit of an odd way to spend telcon time, if I may be so bold. 2005-05-31T15:34:23Z Jos, I notice that Sparql is underneath trust and inference in that picture. 2005-05-31T15:35:09Z http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0078 2005-05-31T15:35:59Z true Pat and was to point to necessity of proof to support trust 2005-05-31T15:36:44Z Ah, good point indeed, Jos. 2005-05-31T15:37:49Z but there are *lots* of blockers, it seems to me 2005-05-31T15:38:08Z q+ 2005-05-31T15:38:08Z * Zakim sees afs on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:38:26Z (I had never thought that named graphs are rigid. I owe the editors a message about this) 2005-05-31T15:38:43Z PatH: it was the intent of Named Graphs that once a graph is named, it is rigid. you can sight it and whatever. 2005-05-31T15:39:11Z s/sight/sign 2005-05-31T15:39:23Z * DanC q+ to propose taking SOURCE, GRAPH, FROM, FROM NAMED, and all that out, and going back to querying just one RDF graph, ala RDQL. 2005-05-31T15:39:23Z * Zakim sees afs, DanC on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:39:47Z ... But we should allow graphs that are created dynamically, say, from RSS feeds. 2005-05-31T15:39:48Z ack afs 2005-05-31T15:39:48Z * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:40:14Z ... for instance, I trust CNN and BBN but not FOX. 2005-05-31T15:40:29Z s/BBN/BBC/ :> 2005-05-31T15:41:08Z ack danc 2005-05-31T15:41:08Z DanC, you wanted to propose taking SOURCE, GRAPH, FROM, FROM NAMED, and all that out, and going back to querying just one RDF graph, ala RDQL. 2005-05-31T15:41:10Z * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 2005-05-31T15:42:20Z difference is the reason for standardization, though 2005-05-31T15:42:33Z WHAT?! :> 2005-05-31T15:42:36Z I disagree, Yoshio 2005-05-31T15:42:49Z carpet biting seems purely a FOX issue ;> 2005-05-31T15:43:39Z I see what Yoshio means. Theres a line between everyone all agreeing, and everyone feeling thats its not a research issue. 2005-05-31T15:43:54Z +1 path & yoshio 2005-05-31T15:43:55Z If we already agree, theres no need for a standard. 2005-05-31T15:44:03Z :-) 2005-05-31T15:44:12Z this isn't a research issue, IMO -- we simply don't have robust consensus. 2005-05-31T15:44:28Z look for predicated trust in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0067 2005-05-31T15:44:29Z agree, kendall 2005-05-31T15:44:30Z zakim, mute me 2005-05-31T15:44:30Z Kendall_Clark should now be muted 2005-05-31T15:44:56Z there doesn't seem to me to be so much of a problem with GRAPH, just the FROM stuff - making the dataset 2005-05-31T15:45:07Z part of the problem is that this design space is very unconstrained, either "naturally" or by UC&R or by our mutual implementation strategies. 2005-05-31T15:45:19Z kendall, thats certainkly true 2005-05-31T15:45:22Z zakim, unmute me 2005-05-31T15:45:22Z Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 2005-05-31T15:46:04Z POLL OPTIONS: (0) take out GRAPH; query against one RDF graph punt SOURCE and fromUnionQuery issues (1) address fromUnionQuery ala http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.367 plus multiple FROMs allowed (2) use 12 Oct design 2005-05-31T15:46:07Z yeah, and that makes it hard to reach consensus, since there are lots of different designs, most of them are internally coherent, but no one of them seems to cover everyone's common case. 2005-05-31T15:47:01Z POLL OPTIONS: (0) take out GRAPH; query against one RDF graph punt SOURCE and fromUnionQuery issues (1) address fromUnionQuery ala http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.367 plus multiple FROMs allowed (1b) ala 1 but with no FROM/FROM NAMED in the QL, only in the protocol (2) use 12 Oct design 2005-05-31T15:47:17Z PatH: Is trust the primary reason for having this provenance text? 2005-05-31T15:47:23Z will someone elaborate 12 Oct design on IRC, please? 2005-05-31T15:47:50Z Yoshio, theres a set of graphs, but no background graph 2005-05-31T15:47:59Z KendallC: i feel that not specifying provenance queries will threaten interop 2005-05-31T15:48:09Z thanks, steven 2005-05-31T15:48:12Z The background graph is always the merge of the named graphs 2005-05-31T15:48:19Z oops, Steeve 2005-05-31T15:48:36Z Yoshio, its Steve actually, but I'm not bothered :) 2005-05-31T15:48:45Z There is a background graph - WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } does have an answer 2005-05-31T15:48:55Z sorry (^_^;) 2005-05-31T15:49:15Z afs, thats a point of view, but I see your point 2005-05-31T15:49:17Z POLL OPTIONS: (0) take out GRAPH; query against one RDF graph punt SOURCE and fromUnionQuery issues (1) address fromUnionQuery ala http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.367 plus multiple FROMs allowed (1b) ala 1 but with no FROM/FROM NAMED in the QL, only in the protocol (2) use 12 Oct design (2b) ala PatH: bg graph always contains (vs is) the (er... something) 2005-05-31T15:49:30Z Zakim, who's one the phone 2005-05-31T15:49:30Z I don't understand 'who's one the phone', DanC 2005-05-31T15:49:32Z Zakim, who's one the phone? 2005-05-31T15:49:32Z I don't understand your question, DanC. 2005-05-31T15:49:35Z Zakim, who's on the phone? 2005-05-31T15:49:35Z On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, DaveB, EricP, Yoshio, DanC, AndyS, Kevin, SteveH, JanneS, Souri, JeenB, JosD, PatH 2005-05-31T15:49:42Z As editor, my POV is relevant 2005-05-31T15:49:59Z afs, true :) 2005-05-31T15:50:31Z PatH: Oct 12 has the background graph having all the named graphs 2005-05-31T15:51:20Z oh, so there's no "no background graph" option? 2005-05-31T15:51:40Z which I'd support 2005-05-31T15:51:50Z yoshio, could you explain your requirements? 2005-05-31T15:51:52Z huh? (0) is pretty close, perhaps, Yoshio 2005-05-31T15:52:33Z [[ 2005-05-31T15:52:34Z SELECT ?title 2005-05-31T15:52:34Z WHERE { ?title } 2005-05-31T15:52:34Z ]] 2005-05-31T15:53:27Z SELECT ?title FROM WHERE { ?book dc:title ?title }. 2005-05-31T15:53:34Z SELECT ?title FROM WHERE GRAPH ?g { ?book dc:title ?title }. 2005-05-31T15:54:39Z I believe Yoshio wants the entirety of the RDF dataset to be explicitly specified in the query. (?) 2005-05-31T15:54:42Z POLL OPTIONS: (0) take out GRAPH; query against one RDF graph punt SOURCE and fromUnionQuery issues (1) address fromUnionQuery ala http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.367 plus multiple FROMs allowed (1b) ala 1 but with no FROM/FROM NAMED in the QL, only in the protocol (2) use 12 Oct design (2b) ala PatH: bg graph always contains (vs is) the (er... something) (3) ala Yoshio, no implicit dataset; all data to be queried is specified in the query 2005-05-31T15:54:57Z Zakim, who's on the phone? 2005-05-31T15:54:57Z On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, DaveB, EricP, Yoshio, DanC, AndyS, Kevin, SteveH, JanneS, Souri, JeenB, JosD, PatH 2005-05-31T15:55:31Z my position is to be as close to REST style, in a sense 2005-05-31T15:55:34Z i suspect that Yoshio's proposal is orthogonal 2005-05-31T15:55:52Z KendallC: 1 2005-05-31T15:56:06Z DB: -0 +2 2005-05-31T15:56:10Z tx 2005-05-31T15:56:27Z EP: +2 umm... 2005-05-31T15:56:35Z Yoshio: +3 2005-05-31T15:56:54Z 7 then 2005-05-31T15:57:13Z AFS: [implicitly, 1] 2005-05-31T15:57:41Z KW: +0 2005-05-31T15:57:51Z ... but I see interest in others. 2005-05-31T15:58:00Z SH: +2 2005-05-31T15:58:07Z JS: +2 2005-05-31T15:58:41Z Souri: just as an observer... this seems important; haven't finished my thinking 2005-05-31T15:59:25Z JB: -0 +1 or +1b ... maybe 2 2005-05-31T15:59:37Z JD: +1 2005-05-31T15:59:54Z PH: +3, if I understand it... 2005-05-31T16:00:05Z ... else 1 2005-05-31T16:00:06Z problem is that yoshio's seems a bit underspecified; otherwise, I like 3, too. 2005-05-31T16:00:09Z JD: I kinda like 3 also 2005-05-31T16:00:23Z so, I'm: +1, maybe 3 2005-05-31T16:00:47Z * jeen has to leave unfortunately 2005-05-31T16:01:02Z (time to run for me, too) 2005-05-31T16:01:43Z -!- JanneS [janne.saar@194.29.198.121] has quit [Quit: JanneS] 2005-05-31T16:01:46Z (bummer... time has run out) 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: DanC to send comment on non-use of http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes to schema comments list 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: EricP to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe cf. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#extendedType-eq-pass 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: DaveB to work with EricP to clarify valueTesting proposal 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION DanC: noodle on uri() and str() issue from email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0239.html 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION: DanC to rethink the use/mention issue w.r.t Tim's email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0154.html 0000-00-00T00:00:00Z ACTION DanC: try splitting SparqlQuery interface into SparqlGraph SparqlBindings 2005-05-31T16:02:41Z ADJOURN. 2005-05-31T16:02:47Z -JanneS 2005-05-31T16:03:07Z -JeenB 2005-05-31T16:03:10Z -!- jeen [jeen@213.53.169.170] has left #dawg [] 2005-05-31T16:04:45Z Yoshio, let me check your idea. Is it that there must be a single (URI or graph name) from which the query is evaluated, but that this might identify an arbitrarily complicated virtual graph, controlled by the answering service? 2005-05-31T16:05:40Z well, there may be multiple specification 2005-05-31T16:05:50Z Ah, yes, OK, sorry. 2005-05-31T16:06:11Z -DaveB 2005-05-31T16:06:11Z and about virtualness(?), yes 2005-05-31T16:06:52Z OK, good, that is what I thought you meant by the REST refernce. We need a notion of a 'graph resource' :-) 2005-05-31T16:06:56Z in a nutshell, I want to hold an option of excluding unclear background graph 2005-05-31T16:07:09Z OK, I see the point. 2005-05-31T16:07:30Z yoshio, you don't see the value of having a service like the w3c list archive search service, where FROM makes no sense? 2005-05-31T16:07:36Z The other side however is the need to allow an answering service which maintains a changing virtual graph. 2005-05-31T16:07:42Z Pat - while you are here ... 2005-05-31T16:08:15Z dan, sorry, I don't see your point 2005-05-31T16:08:23Z DanC, why does FROM make no sense there? If that sedrvice has a URI, then why can that not be used as the source? Its not a GRAPH name, but so what? 2005-05-31T16:08:33Z I sent a round of questions (e.g. solution vs substitution terminology) - should I prioritise the questions? 2005-05-31T16:08:35Z afs, yes? 2005-05-31T16:08:52Z Oh, wait... 2005-05-31T16:08:55Z suppose there's a SPARQL interface to the w3c list archive search service. Its dataset is what it is. It doesn't make sense to do FROM or FROM NAMED. 2005-05-31T16:09:32Z DacC, not FROM NAMED, agreed, but FROM seems to make sense to me. 2005-05-31T16:09:47Z I agree with pathH 2005-05-31T16:09:52Z (Sorry to nag) 2005-05-31T16:10:06Z s/pathH/patH/ 2005-05-31T16:10:06Z agree Pat, just being explicit about assumptions 2005-05-31T16:10:08Z afs: i'd be interested in that 2005-05-31T16:10:13Z DanC, for example, suppose I query some other service and tell IT to use th ew3c archive. That makes sense, surely? 2005-05-31T16:10:44Z afc, not nagging but I seem to have missed the questions so am at a loss. 2005-05-31T16:10:53Z but I don't want the instructin outside the query 2005-05-31T16:10:53Z -DanC 2005-05-31T16:10:54Z -Souri 2005-05-31T16:10:54Z -EricP 2005-05-31T16:10:56Z Will resend. 2005-05-31T16:10:57Z -Kendall_Clark 2005-05-31T16:10:59Z -Kevin 2005-05-31T16:10:59Z -JosD 2005-05-31T16:11:03Z -SteveH 2005-05-31T16:11:05Z -!- KevinW [Kevin.Wilk@192.6.19.190] has quit [Quit: User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby] 2005-05-31T16:11:08Z afc, thanks. 2005-05-31T16:11:09Z -Yoshio 2005-05-31T16:11:19Z -PatH 2005-05-31T16:11:21Z -AndyS 2005-05-31T16:11:23Z SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended 2005-05-31T16:11:24Z Attendees were Kendall_Clark, Jeen_Broekstra, EricP, Yoshio, DanC, AndyS, DaveB, Kevin, SteveH, JanneS, Souri, JeenB, JosD, PatH