IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-05-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:50:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
18:50:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/26-wai-wcag-irc
18:52:55 [wendy]
Regrets: Sebastiano Nutarelli, Makoto Ueki, WATANABE Takayuki
19:40:17 [wendy]
zakim, this will be wcag
19:40:17 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
19:43:58 [wendy]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0563.html
19:44:05 [wendy]
agenda+ Agenda review and face to face announcements (5 minutes)
19:44:12 [wendy]
agenda+ Techniques Task Force update (5 minutes)
19:44:26 [wendy]
agenda+ Guideline 3.1 Proposals (25 minutes)
19:44:40 [wendy]
agenda+ Guideline 2.3 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes)
19:44:50 [wendy]
agenda+ Guideline 2.2 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes)
19:44:57 [wendy]
agenda+ Guideline 3.2 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes)
19:45:06 [wendy]
agenda+ Guideline 4.1 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes)
19:51:44 [Michael]
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19:54:50 [jslatin]
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19:57:40 [Yvette]
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19:57:44 [ben]
ben has joined #wai-wcag
19:57:46 [Christophe]
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19:57:48 [Yvette]
Hi all
19:58:42 [jslatin]
i didn't have time to make a chart of responses to straw poll. can someone help us track how many yesses, nos, etc.?
19:58:50 [Yvette]
sure
19:58:59 [jslatin]
want to identify controversial items for discussion first
19:59:17 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:59:24 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
19:59:36 [Yvette]
some were even unanimous :-)
19:59:42 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
19:59:43 [Christophe]
I don't have access to the results of the questionnaires
20:00:02 [Becky_Gibson]
Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:02 [jslatin]
whoops, i forgot-- i think that's jsut me and wendy and gregg, not sure
20:00:03 [Zakim]
+Becky_Gibson
20:00:29 [wendy]
everyone should have access to the questionnaires, lemme see if one of the settings i messed up.
20:00:30 [Yvette]
I do have access
20:00:45 [rcastaldo]
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20:00:51 [Zakim]
+Wendy
20:00:53 [rcastaldo]
Hi all :)
20:00:57 [Yvette]
Hmm, I got kicked off the phone
20:01:05 [jslatin]
hi roberto!
20:01:07 [wendy]
christophe - which one were you trying to get?
20:01:13 [rcastaldo]
Hi :)
20:01:15 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink
20:01:22 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:01:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Yvette_Hoitink
20:01:34 [Zakim]
+Christophe_Strobbe
20:01:43 [Zakim]
+Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:02:08 [Zakim]
+Dave_MacDonald
20:02:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aaaa - is perhaps Bengt_Farre
20:02:38 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li
20:02:48 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow_Weaver
20:03:02 [Andi]
Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:03:11 [Zakim]
+Matt
20:03:24 [mcmay]
mcmay has joined #wai-wcag
20:03:31 [Zakim]
+JasonWhite
20:03:49 [Zakim]
+??P21
20:03:58 [ben]
zakim, ??P21 is Gregg_and_Ben
20:03:58 [Zakim]
+Gregg_and_Ben; got it
20:04:36 [David]
David has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:39 [David]
test
20:05:07 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta
20:05:20 [ben]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:05:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Yvette_Hoitink, Christophe_Strobbe, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Dave_MacDonald, Bengt_Farre, Alex_Li,
20:05:23 [Zakim]
... Andi_Snow_Weaver, Matt, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Mike_Barta
20:05:41 [rcastaldo]
I'm on the phone too :)
20:06:02 [gregg]
gregg has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:36 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 1
20:06:36 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Agenda review and face to face announcements (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:07:55 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
20:08:07 [wendy]
registration for F2F open until 8 June.
20:08:10 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
20:08:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
20:08:12 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:08:13 [Zakim]
2. Techniques Task Force update (5 minutes) [from wendy]
20:08:17 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
20:08:17 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:08:19 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:08:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Techniques Task Force update (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:08:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.558.aabb - is perhaps Bengt_Farre
20:08:33 [wendy]
scribe: wendy
20:08:38 [wendy]
mc: gives TTF update
20:08:47 [rcastaldo]
I'm connected again, and I'm not Bengt_Farre
20:09:05 [wendy]
baseline mockups soon. prep for discussion at F2F. lots of work on 2.4.
20:09:45 [wendy]
minutes from yesterday: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/25-wai-wcag-minutes.html
20:09:58 [wendy]
(still need to be cleaned up)
20:10:49 [wendy]
js: focus on next public WDs.
20:11:16 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
20:11:16 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
20:11:17 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:11:19 [Zakim]
3. Guideline 3.1 Proposals (25 minutes) [from wendy]
20:11:19 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
20:11:20 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:11:21 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Guideline 3.1 Proposals (25 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:12:11 [ben]
Last Week's 3.1 Results: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/meaning0516/results
20:12:33 [ben]
This week's results (includes updated proposals for 3 criterion): http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/meaning0526/results
20:14:43 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:14:55 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Slatin (73%), Christophe_Strobbe (4%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (26%), Mike_Barta (4%)
20:15:26 [wendy]
zakim, who's muted?
20:15:26 [Zakim]
I see Yvette_Hoitink, Bengt_Farre muted
20:15:43 [rcastaldo]
I'm muted too
20:17:10 [wendy]
last week's 3.1 discussion: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item05
20:19:06 [wendy]
discussing: Proposed wording Level 1 SC3: A measure of the education level required to read the content is available.
20:19:42 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
20:20:10 [Yvette]
q+
20:20:21 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
20:20:21 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:20:24 [Tim]
Tim has joined #wai-wcag
20:20:36 [Yvette]
q-
20:21:03 [wendy]
ack alex
20:22:12 [wendy]
q+
20:22:43 [wendy]
ack john
20:23:59 [Yvette]
q+
20:25:49 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:26:15 [gregg]
q+
20:26:24 [wendy]
ack yvette
20:28:03 [wendy]
i have reservations, think it's important, but can live with it.
20:28:26 [gregg]
ack g
20:28:35 [wendy]
resolution: delete Level 1 SC3: A measure of the education level required to read the content is available.
20:28:49 [wendy]
s/delete/not accept the proposal
20:29:53 [wendy]
q+ to say, "should only be reopened with new evidence or information"
20:29:57 [wendy]
q-
20:32:09 [wendy]
discussing: Proposed text: A mechanism is available to identify the primary natural language or languages of the delivery unit.
20:33:00 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Becky and I had similar alternative proposal"
20:34:35 [wendy]
We need a definition of what "mechanism is available" means.
20:35:15 [Tim]
how to objectively test "availability of mechanism"?
20:35:26 [wendy]
action: john to take a pass at definition of what "mechanism is available" means
20:35:39 [wendy]
ack yvette
20:35:39 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "Becky and I had similar alternative proposal"
20:35:57 [wendy]
The primary natural language or languages of a delivery unit can be programmatically determined.
20:37:27 [wendy]
6 issues related to programmatically determined: http://tinyurl.com/8ralm
20:37:52 [wendy]
especially: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1309
20:39:45 [wendy]
ack alex
20:40:20 [wendy]
ack john
20:42:30 [wendy]
multiple languages per document, comma-separated list: "Technique 9: Provide a comma-separated list of languages" http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-lang.html#ri20040728.121940236
20:45:11 [Christophe]
that refers to HTTP headers, not to HTML's lang attribute
20:46:04 [Christophe]
HTML spec always says "a language": e.g http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/sgml/dtd.html#LanguageCode
20:48:47 [Becky]
q+
20:48:56 [wendy]
ack becky
20:49:02 [ben]
q+ to say, "we're using programmatically determined in ~ 6 other criterion"
20:49:10 [David]
q+
20:51:03 [wendy]
ack ben
20:51:04 [Zakim]
ben, you wanted to say, "we're using programmatically determined in ~ 6 other criterion"
20:51:06 [wendy]
oops.
20:51:15 [wendy]
zakim, mute Bengt
20:51:15 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should now be muted
20:51:25 [wendy]
ack dav
20:51:32 [gregg]
q+
20:51:37 [Tim]
I prefer "programmatically determined" from testing standpoint
20:52:21 [gregg]
ack g
20:54:06 [gregg]
The primary natural language or languages of the delivery unit can be programmatically determined.
20:54:14 [wendy]
resolution: use "programmatically determined" here. will consider other uses of "mechanism is available" at a later time.
20:54:23 [wendy]
resolution: The primary natural language or languages of the delivery unit can be programmatically determined.
20:55:05 [wendy]
Discussing: Proposed wording Level 3 SC1: A mechanism is available for identifying specific definitions of words used in an unusual or restricted way, including idioms and jargon.
20:55:16 [wendy]
Current text: Where a word has multiple meanings and the intended meaning is not the first in the associated dictionary(s), then additional markup or another mechanism is provided for determining the correct meaning.
20:57:50 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
20:57:50 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:58:31 [gregg]
q+
20:58:59 [wendy]
ack g
20:59:01 [Becky]
q+
21:01:02 [rcastaldo]
I've got to leave the call. Bye everybody, hear you next week
21:01:11 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
21:01:18 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag
21:01:43 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
21:01:52 [wendy]
Note that Bengt was actually Roberto Castaldo
21:02:14 [wendy]
ack b
21:02:53 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
21:03:17 [wendy]
ack j
21:04:32 [wendy]
q+ to ask "time check?"
21:06:38 [wendy]
q-
21:08:03 [wendy]
becky gives example about teen site and slang used to appeal to.
21:08:22 [wendy]
john says "not assuming authors will design a site to be used by the entire world" - is an implicit assumption
21:08:49 [wendy]
include this idea/example and "restricted way" - in guide doc
21:11:01 [wendy]
resolution: adopt proposed wording for Level 3 SC1 - A mechanism is available for identifying specific definitions of words used in an unusual or restricted way, including idioms and jargon. Issue: need to define tests for "unusual or restricted way"
21:15:17 [wendy]
action: john send updated guideline 3.1 with decisions from today
21:15:21 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
21:15:21 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
21:15:22 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:15:23 [Zakim]
4. Guideline 2.3 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes) [from wendy]
21:15:25 [wendy]
zakim, next item
21:15:25 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Guideline 2.3 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
21:15:47 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/flicker2005-05-25/results
21:16:28 [wendy]
issue 1323 - 11 close this issue, 1 keep it open
21:16:41 [wendy]
q+ to say "focus on controversial"
21:17:04 [wendy]
e.g., - Issue 1167 - Should we add a level 3 SC about notification? 3 - 9
21:17:21 [wendy]
resolution: close issue 1323 with gv's comment
21:18:49 [wendy]
q-
21:19:35 [wendy]
resolution: close issue 1386
21:21:16 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:21:16 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:24:26 [wendy]
resolution: do not add a new level 3 SC about notification and close issue 1167.
21:25:19 [wendy]
resolution: adopt Proposed wording Guideline 2.3 Allow users to avoid content that could cause seizures due to photosensitivity.
21:26:09 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
21:26:09 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
21:26:10 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:26:11 [Zakim]
5. Guideline 2.2 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes) [from wendy]
21:26:22 [wendy]
zakim, next item
21:26:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Guideline 2.2 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
21:26:28 [ben]
2.2 survey results: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/time-limits0525/results
21:29:04 [wendy]
q+ to propose that Christophe rework proposal based on feedback
21:32:33 [gregg]
ack w
21:32:33 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to propose that Christophe rework proposal based on feedback
21:33:35 [wendy]
resolution/action: christophe rework proposal for Level 1 SC 1 based on feedback
21:34:11 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
21:34:22 [Tim]
Have to leave call now..best wishes
21:34:25 [Tim]
Tim has left #wai-wcag
21:34:59 [wendy]
Discussing: Proposed wording Level 2 SC 1: Content does not blink, or a method is available to stop any blinking of content in the delivery unit, or a method is available to disallow blinking entirely in the content of the delivery unit.
21:35:23 [wendy]
responses: proposed 5, current 4. lots of comments.
21:36:16 [wendy]
resolution/action: christophe reword proposal for Level 2 SC 1 based on feedback.
21:36:48 [wendy]
resolution: adopt Proposed wording for Level 2 SC 2: Moving or time-based content can be paused by the user.
21:38:08 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:38:08 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette
21:39:29 [Andi]
q+
21:40:44 [wendy]
ack q
21:44:03 [gregg]
ack a
21:44:05 [gregg]
ack j
21:46:11 [Zakim]
-Matt
21:49:09 [wendy]
resolution: adopt Proposed wording for Level 3 SC 1: Except for real-time events, timing is not an essential part of the event or activity presented by the content. (clarify issues with differences between level 1 and this in the guide doc. e.g., a test that conforms to level 3 does not have a timeout)
21:51:30 [wendy]
discussing: Proposed wording Level 3 SC 2: Non-emergency interruptions, such as the availability of updated content, are turned off by default.
21:51:49 [wendy]
q+
21:53:14 [wendy]
ack w
21:55:35 [wendy]
counter-proposal: Non-emergency interruptions, such as the availability of updated content, can be postponed or suppressed by the user.
21:55:40 [Zakim]
+Matt
21:56:32 [wendy]
resolution: adopt modification of current wording for Level 3 SC 2 - Non-emergency interruptions, such as the availability of updated content, can be postponed or suppressed by the user.
21:56:37 [jslatin]
just make it "notice about the availability" and we're all set
21:56:57 [wendy]
discussing: Proposal for new benefit: People with low computer literacy, particularly the elderly, do not get confused or are not led to think that they have made a mistake.
21:57:27 [Yvette]
q+
21:57:37 [Yvette]
q-
21:58:03 [wendy]
resolution: since informative, discuss proposed new benefit (re: low computer literacy) on the list.
21:58:25 [wendy]
Issue 880 - Should blinking and movement be covered? - yes.
21:58:36 [wendy]
however, need a proposal
21:58:49 [wendy]
discussing -Issue 1525 - Reject the issue about server timeouts?
21:59:16 [wendy]
6 said to reject the issue, 2 said not to reject
21:59:48 [wendy]
q+ to ask if that is accessibility or usability?
21:59:49 [ben]
q+ to ask, "how is this case not already covered by level 1 SC?"
22:01:04 [wendy]
several comments that the author does not control the server
22:01:51 [Andi]
q+
22:02:34 [wendy]
ack wendy
22:02:34 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to ask if that is accessibility or usability?
22:03:50 [Zakim]
-JasonWhite
22:05:24 [Andi]
q-
22:05:29 [wendy]
ack b
22:05:29 [Zakim]
ben, you wanted to ask, "how is this case not already covered by level 1 SC?"
22:07:12 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=800
22:07:16 [wendy]
ack a
22:07:36 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1525
22:08:28 [wendy]
unresolved question: should server time-outs be at a lower level (2 or 3)?
22:09:22 [wendy]
action: christophe look at comments on issue 1525 and write proposal to address.
22:09:30 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
22:09:30 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
22:09:31 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:09:32 [Zakim]
6. Guideline 3.2 Issue Summary and Proposals (25 minutes) [from wendy]
22:09:37 [wendy]
zakim, save agenda
22:09:43 [Zakim]
ok, wendy, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/26-wai-wcag-agenda.rdf
22:09:46 [wendy]
Chair: Gregg
22:10:05 [wendy]
RRSagent, generate minutes
22:10:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:10:14 [Zakim]
-Mike_Barta
22:10:16 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:10:17 [Zakim]
-Matt
22:10:17 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow_Weaver
22:10:22 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li
22:10:24 [Zakim]
-Gregg_and_Ben
22:10:29 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
22:10:34 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
22:10:39 [Zakim]
-Christophe_Strobbe
22:10:39 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
22:10:39 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:10:39 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Yvette_Hoitink, Christophe_Strobbe, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Dave_MacDonald, +1.202.558.aaaa, Alex_Li,
22:10:39 [Zakim]
... Andi_Snow_Weaver, Matt, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Mike_Barta, +1.202.558.aabb, Tim_Boland
22:10:39 [Yvette]
Yvette has left #wai-wcag
22:11:30 [wendy]
Present: Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Wendy Chisholm, Yvette_Hoitink, Christophe_Strobbe, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Dave_MacDonald, Alex_Li, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Matt May, Jason White, Gregg Vanderheiden, Ben Caldwell, Mike_Barta, Roberto Castaldo, Tim_Boland
22:11:58 [Christophe]
Christophe has left #wai-wcag
22:12:14 [wendy]
RRSagent, generate minutes
22:12:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:30:43 [wendy]
zakim, by
22:30:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'by', wendy
22:30:45 [wendy]
zakim, bye
22:30:45 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:30:48 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
22:30:48 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
22:30:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john to take a pass at definition of what "mechanism is available" means [1]
22:30:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T20-35-26
22:30:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john send updated guideline 3.1 with decisions from today [2]
22:30:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T21-15-17
22:30:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: christophe look at comments on issue 1525 and write proposal to address. [3]
22:30:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T22-09-22