IRC log of eo on 2005-05-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:33:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:33:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:33:02 [Zakim]
12:33:44 [shawn]
zakim, aaaa is Ron_Armstrong
12:33:44 [Zakim]
+Ron_Armstrong; got it
12:34:26 [Harvey]
Harvey has joined #eo
12:34:51 [Zakim]
12:35:15 [Zakim]
12:35:32 [Andrew]
zakim, who is here?
12:35:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, Ron_Armstrong, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Judy, ??P4, Bingham, ??P6, ??P7, ??P8, Shawn, Henk, Carol, Jack
12:35:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Harvey, RRSAgent, Zakim, JackW, Wayne, Andrew, shawn, judy, pasquale, shadi
12:35:56 [shawn]
present: Pasquale, Barry, Andrew, Carol, Jack, Ron, Wayne, Judy, Shawn, Henk, Doyle, Sylvie
12:36:09 [carol]
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12:37:28 [shawn]
Present+ Harvey
12:37:43 [shawn]
meeting: EOWG
12:37:46 [shawn]
chair: Judy
12:38:28 [Zakim]
12:39:32 [shawn]
scribe: Wayne
12:40:04 [shawn]
present+ Shadi
12:40:21 [Zakim]
12:40:30 [shawn]
present+ Helle
12:41:09 [Wayne]
Topic Outreach
12:41:30 [Helle]
Helle has joined #eo
12:41:36 [shawn]
12:41:37 [Wayne]
There was no activity this week.
12:43:36 [Wayne]
Topic Introduction
12:45:45 [achuter]
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12:47:01 [Helle]
zakim, please mute me
12:47:01 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:47:05 [Justin]
Justin has joined #eo
12:48:54 [Wayne]
Topic: Outreach
12:49:02 [Wayne]
Topic: Introduction
12:49:51 [Zakim]
12:50:09 [Zakim]
12:50:55 [Zakim]
12:50:56 [Zakim]
12:51:11 [Wayne]
Topic: (changed from agenda order) Lexicon
12:51:40 [Justin]
zakim, ??P14 is Justin
12:51:40 [Zakim]
+Justin; got it
12:51:46 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
12:51:46 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
12:52:29 [Zakim]
12:53:23 [Helle]
zakim, please unmute me
12:53:23 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
12:55:54 [Wayne]
Henk: Sent around updated version of Lexicon final words. There are four choices of two definitions that are not agreed upon.
12:56:17 [pasquale]
i prefer a)
12:56:39 [JackW]
I prefer A as well
12:56:51 [Wayne]
First word Assistive Technology (a) More detail (b) less detail --- (a) wins the vote.
12:57:42 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
12:57:42 [Zakim]
sorry, achuter, I do not see a party named 'achuter'
12:57:44 [Zakim]
12:58:06 [pasquale]
informative: i prefer a)
12:58:53 [Andrew]
I vote for three times a)
12:59:52 [Wayne]
Informative: (a) , (b) starts with describing... (a)
13:00:18 [pasquale]
non-normative: i prefer a)
13:01:16 [shawn]
Present+ Alan, Justin
13:02:11 [Helle]
zakim, please mute me
13:02:11 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:02:51 [Wayne]
For non-normative and normative ... (a) without the describing
13:03:21 [pasquale]
normative. vote for a)
13:03:42 [shawn]
ack shawn
13:06:55 [Wayne]
Shawn Proposed and it was approved that the Lexicon be mailed around for a 48 hour last time comment.
13:07:24 [shawn]
action: shawn & henk coordinate on getting final version in latest format and email list for "last call"
13:08:18 [Wayne]
Judy: The Lexicon will hold off on extending the lexicon so that EO can pesue other priorities
13:09:30 [shawn]
jb: any closing comments on Lexicon
13:09:31 [Wayne]
Shawn: Will send around the Lex to other interested working groups
13:09:37 [shawn]
harvey: whoopie
13:09:38 [shawn]
13:09:39 [Wayne]
Harvey: Woopy
13:09:49 [mcmullin]
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13:10:28 [Wayne]
Topic: Retrofitting
13:10:40 [mcmullin]
Hi shawn - finally back in the real world...
13:12:42 [Wayne]
Judy: Introduced the Retrofitting Document and identifed basic isues
13:14:21 [Wayne]
Shadi: We need to do scoping and identify the audience. Where does this fit in the EO documents. Higher leve approach: what to consider; Should we target developers?
13:15:39 [Wayne]
Judy: Look at the requirements section, do we have the audience?
13:16:35 [Wayne]
Jack: The audiences are correct, but the title doesn't match
13:16:58 [Wayne]
Henk and Andrew: Agree
13:17:25 [shawn]
suggestion: Developing a Plan to Retrofit...
13:18:00 [shawn]
aa: title implies that we're going to be told how to do it, rather than things to think about when we need to do it
13:19:38 [Wayne]
Shadi: If we go down the direction for "Developing a Plan for Retrofitting". Where would we fit it.
13:19:51 [Justin]
I repeating everyone will get the message.
13:20:20 [Wayne]
Andrew: Repeating information may anoy a few users, but will ensure that it can be found.
13:20:56 [Wayne]
Andrew: There is little overlapping.
13:21:59 [Wayne]
Judy: the draft will change so we should be asking about what do we need that fills gaps in existing documents?
13:22:37 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (90%), ??P4 (17%)
13:23:19 [Wayne]
Judy: Is planning enough; do we need to say how to? That is a controvercial question.
13:24:17 [Wayne]
Andrew: Address the complaint "where do we start", "are some check points more important", people need a guide through the path.
13:25:23 [Wayne]
Jack: That is in line with concerns at Boeing. We have a lot of pages, but willingness is overwhelmed by the size of the task. People need to know what to do, details...
13:26:18 [Wayne]
Genreal agreement with Andrew and Jack's comments.
13:27:29 [Wayne]
Judy: Formalize "Now what do we do" to "Next Steps"
13:29:09 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
13:29:09 [Zakim]
Justin should no longer be muted
13:29:47 [achuter]
Suggestion: the road ahead; towards an accessible web site; the way forward...
13:29:56 [Wayne]
Carol: Has done this and the steps were similar but not so formal.
13:30:47 [Zakim]
13:31:15 [Andrew]
13:31:25 [Andrew]
\nick wayne
13:31:34 [Zakim]
13:32:11 [judy]
wayne, can you drop off irc please?
13:32:19 [Zakim]
13:32:46 [shawn]
scribe: Andrew
13:33:57 [shawn]
FOR THE RECORD: Andrew changed nick to Wayne in order to maintain scribe notation in minute generator :)
13:34:42 [shawn]
scribe: Wayne
13:35:27 [Wayne]
JB: "audience" discussion - primary/secondary
13:36:34 [Wayne]
Barry: Q - not clear from change log, waht is the definitive diferfence between this doc and others?
13:37:39 [Wayne]
JB: v.different from Implementation Planning - it was much broader, this could be much more focussed on a particular step
13:39:14 [Wayne]
JB: 'policies' section could be dropeed as covevred in detail, but overall should be sharper for retrofitting
13:39:39 [Wayne]
Barry: if it is going to get "down and dirty" then audience should be flipped
13:40:38 [Zakim]
13:40:46 [Wayne]
Shadi: doc is somewhere inbetween Implementation Planning and "how to fix code"
13:41:12 [Wayne]
Shadi: a collection of strategies and steps on how to tackle the task
13:42:38 [Wayne]
Shadi: JT: managers make the decisions - what/how much effort/what do we want to acomplish
13:43:18 [Helle]
zakim, please unmute me
13:43:18 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:43:23 [Wayne]
AA: agrees with JT
13:43:56 [Wayne]
Helle: agree that we need to approach the higher level initially
13:44:16 [Wayne]
Shadi: how high a level?
13:44:50 [Wayne]
Helle: important to target the funders and decision makers rather than the coders
13:45:54 [Wayne]
Helle: Q - when would you read this? After an eveluation tells you there is a problem with your site?
13:46:28 [shawn]
q+ to suggest adding to requirements when we expect people to read this document (like Helle just said)
13:46:29 [Wayne]
JB: certainly this is one scenario - how to orient yourself after an evaluation has been conducted, or complaints made
13:47:32 [Wayne]
Pasquale: this should be for decision makers. We have an implementaio planning suite for when we start to develop a web site - this is for an existing site that needs fixing
13:48:13 [Wayne]
Pasquale: can re just call it "accessibility updates"
13:48:33 [Wayne]
Henk: what about "upgrading your web site for accessibility"
13:49:04 [shawn]
q+ to say yes with redesign!
13:49:27 [Helle]
zakim, please mute me
13:49:27 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:49:50 [Wayne]
JB: gets phone calls caknowledging they have accessibility problems, but wanting guidance on where to start
13:50:55 [shawn]
ack me
13:50:55 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to suggest adding to requirements when we expect people to read this document (like Helle just said) and to say yes with redesign!
13:51:26 [Wayne]
SLH: documents more discioverable with site redesign - definitely
13:51:45 [Helle]
zakim, please unmute me
13:51:45 [Zakim]
Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:52:07 [Wayne]
SLH: discussion is helpful - expand requirements to say when we expect people to use the document
13:53:23 [Wayne]
Helle: what about adding in some FAQs - we all get these type of questions
13:54:11 [Wayne]
JB: FAQ idea - can we explore? What are some of the questions?
13:55:18 [Wayne]
Henk: they do not ask is what is the code solution - trust their developers to do this - want guidance on where to start & right procedure
13:55:50 [Wayne]
Henk: not which part to start with, but more about procedure
13:56:26 [Wayne]
Helle: more concrete - what is the most important thing to do - eg title VS alt attributes
13:58:23 [Wayne]
XX: are there a few things that would have a big impact
13:58:37 [shadi]
13:59:59 [shawn]
14:00:00 [Wayne]
AA: how to preioritise depends often on contwext as well as WCAG priority levels
14:00:25 [Wayne]
Shadi: and also on what can be done site-wide with the CMS
14:01:00 [Wayne]
Justin: get asked: how much will it affect the visual look of the page?
14:01:46 [Wayne]
general agreement
14:02:46 [Wayne]
Barry: Q - "how do we get MS Word to genrate accessibility HTML" - have to break the [bad] news gently
14:03:37 [Wayne]
Barry: also get - "we don't have an PWD using the site" - so suggest a dedicated feedback chanel to get feedback on specific barriers
14:03:51 [shawn]
good point
14:03:52 [Wayne]
AA: we also suggest this
14:04:37 [Wayne]
JB: yes - capture this for suggested process
14:05:27 [Wayne]
JB: tools - "selecting" has discussion on work-arounds, but without specific recomendations - should cross-ref this
14:06:06 [Wayne]
JB: should also link to Bus Case as motivator for feedback channel
14:06:44 [Wayne]
JB: look again at draft requirements (
14:06:52 [Justin]
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14:07:16 [Wayne]
JB: any specific reactions to 'approach' section?
14:08:10 [Wayne]
JB: could we use the questions we have just brainstaormed as practical approach, ratehr than the role, etc approach
14:08:46 [Wayne]
AA: likes the practical appraoch sugegstion from Helle & JB
14:08:57 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
14:08:57 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
14:09:10 [Wayne]
Pasqale: "practical" is the right approach
14:11:02 [Wayne]
Shadi: helpful discussion to guide re-write
14:11:29 [Wayne]
JB: audience clarity - needs more discussion?
14:12:03 [Wayne]
JB: sure - managers are important, but often develoeprs get handed the task
14:12:34 [Wayne]
SLH: large org VS small org (managers VS developers)
14:13:37 [Wayne]
SLH: if doc is how to decide what to do, then bottom line is that job title doesn't matter, it is what role you have
14:17:23 [Wayne]
AA: if you got caught out (by not building in from he start), then this is an approach to make some amends
14:18:37 [Wayne]
JB: any wrap up thoughts on audience?
14:19:27 [Justin]
sounds good
14:20:08 [Wayne]
Shadi: will bring revised descriptions back to EO
14:20:44 [Wayne]
JB: anything that jumps out from Shadi's draft (
14:21:33 [Wayne]
people seem hapy to wait until next time
14:22:12 [Wayne]
JB: comments on overlap with other docs?
14:22:51 [Wayne]
JB: should it be a side-step from "implementation plan"
14:23:18 [Wayne]
Henk: it is a specific subset of the "implementation plan"
14:23:40 [Wayne]
Pasquale: agrees with Henk - as do others
14:24:05 [Wayne]
Helle: also fits with "Evaluation Suite"?
14:24:16 [Wayne]
Henk: it is the next step/phase
14:26:43 [Wayne]
JB: will IA for new site accommodate these relationships?
14:27:17 [Wayne]
SLH: most probably - can draft for next meeting in site map
14:27:27 [Helle]
I have to quit regrets for next meeting June 3
14:27:35 [Zakim]
14:28:15 [Wayne]
Topic: June meeting schedule
14:28:35 [Wayne]
no meeting 27th May, but all through June
14:29:13 [shawn]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:29:14 [Wayne]
Meeting closed
14:29:16 [Zakim]
14:29:17 [Zakim]
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14:29:21 [Zakim]
14:29:23 [Zakim]
14:29:24 [Zakim]
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14:29:35 [Zakim]
14:31:47 [Wayne]
Shawn, can you pass the IRC log along to Wayne?
14:33:24 [shawn]
zakim, bye
14:33:24 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Doyle_Saylor, +1.714.649.aaaa, Sylvie_Duchateau, Judy, Bingham, Shawn, Henk, Ron_Armstrong, Carol, Jack, Shadi, Helle_Bjarno,
14:33:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #eo
14:33:27 [shawn]
yes. will do
14:33:27 [Zakim]
... Loughborough, Justin, Alan
14:33:37 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:33:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shawn
14:35:33 [pasquale]
hi all, have a good week end
14:38:44 [judy]
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14:39:00 [Justin]
Justin has left #eo
14:39:47 [shawn]
shawn has left #eo
16:38:57 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
16:38:57 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item:
16:38:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shawn & henk coordinate on getting final version in latest format and email list for "last call" [1]
16:38:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in