IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-05-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:52:04 [RRSAgent]
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19:52:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-irc
19:52:44 [wendy]
michael? i've updated basecamp. still have some more to do, but wanted to get your feedback on using milestones to list/track agendas.
19:53:11 [Makoto]
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19:53:12 [wendy]
e.g., see 25 May
19:54:27 [ben_]
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19:55:35 [wendy]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0511.html
19:55:39 [wendy]
Chair: John, Gregg
19:55:42 [wendy]
Scribe: wendy
19:55:54 [wendy]
agenda+ Agenda review and face to face announcements (5 minutes)
19:56:01 [wendy]
agenda+ Techniques Task Force update (5 minutes)
19:56:10 [wendy]
agenda+ GL 2.5 (25 minutes)
19:56:19 [wendy]
agenda+ GL 4.2 (25 minutes)
19:56:28 [wendy]
agenda+ GL 3.1 (25 minutes)
19:57:31 [ben_]
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19:58:19 [Christophe]
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19:58:32 [wendy]
weird. ben are you here?
19:58:37 [wendy]
i don't see you in the nick list.
19:59:26 [wendy]
zakim, this will be wcag
19:59:26 [Zakim]
ok, wendy, I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM already started
19:59:43 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
19:59:50 [Zakim]
+Wendy
19:59:59 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:59:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IPcaller], Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy
20:00:09 [Makoto]
zakim, [IPcaller] is Makoto
20:00:09 [Zakim]
+Makoto; got it
20:00:11 [Zakim]
+Christophe_Strobbe
20:00:15 [Zakim]
+??P11
20:00:34 [wendy]
zakim, ??P11 is Ben_and_Gregg
20:00:34 [Zakim]
+Ben_and_Gregg; got it
20:01:14 [Zakim]
+??P10
20:01:16 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li
20:01:42 [wendy]
zakim, ??P10 is Tim_Boland
20:01:42 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland; got it
20:01:47 [ben]
ben has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:56 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
20:02:16 [Zakim]
+JasonWhite
20:02:48 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
20:03:16 [Zakim]
+Matt
20:04:25 [gregg]
gregg has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:28 [Christophe]
I can only stay for one (to catch the last bus home)
20:04:40 [Becky_Gibson]
Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:52 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Makoto, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben_and_Gregg, Alex_Li, Tim_Boland, Michael_Cooper, JasonWhite, Matt
20:04:56 [Christophe]
I meant: I can only stay for one hour (to catch the last bus home)
20:04:59 [Zakim]
+Becky_Gibson
20:05:23 [wendy]
christophe - ok. thanks.
20:05:26 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 1
20:05:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Agenda review and face to face announcements (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:06:15 [wendy]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0511.html
20:06:50 [wendy]
f2f info and registration: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/f2f-agenda.html
20:07:25 [mcmay]
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20:07:44 [wendy]
13/14 june full WCAG WG, 15/16 june techniques task force (details soon in proposed agenda)
20:12:38 [wendy]
zakim, next item
20:12:38 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Techniques Task Force update (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:14:50 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
20:14:57 [wendy]
agenda?
20:15:06 [wendy]
zakim, close item 2
20:15:06 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
20:15:08 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:15:09 [Zakim]
3. GL 2.5 (25 minutes) [from wendy]
20:15:16 [wendy]
zakim, agenda order is 4, 5, 3
20:15:16 [Zakim]
ok, wendy
20:15:23 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 4
20:15:23 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "GL 4.2 (25 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
20:16:17 [wendy]
survey results: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/techsupport0516/results
20:16:46 [wendy]
Proposed wording Level 1 SC 1: When rendering or operating content requires a plug-in or applet, a mechanism is available and associated with the content for downloading a version of the plug-in or
20:16:51 [wendy]
zakim, ping me in 20 minutes
20:16:51 [Zakim]
ok, wendy
20:18:02 [wendy]
issue: michael's comment on list, delete the SC. other questions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0512.html
20:22:48 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta
20:23:03 [wendy]
q+ to ask about when applet is not in baseline - provide an alternative?
20:23:12 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li.a
20:23:16 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li
20:23:39 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:23:39 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to ask about when applet is not in baseline - provide an alternative?
20:24:39 [wendy]
ack loretta
20:24:41 [gregg]
q+
20:26:37 [wendy]
ack gregg
20:27:12 [wendy]
ack loretta
20:27:48 [wendy]
q+ js
20:27:50 [wendy]
ack js
20:28:17 [wendy]
q+
20:28:48 [wendy]
q-
20:30:18 [wendy]
my response in the survey suggested, "a mechanism is available and associated with the content for downloading a version of the plug-in, applet, or an alternative that allows the content to conform to these guidelines." ??
20:31:38 [wendy]
proposal: a pair of criteria 1. if its in the baseline do x, 2. if it is not in the baseline...
20:31:43 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:31:56 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Loretta_Guarino_Reid (91%), John_Slatin (16%), Christophe_Strobbe (16%), Tim_Boland (19%)
20:32:32 [wendy]
reminder of definition of baseline
20:34:18 [wendy]
For any technologies not in the chosen baseline, the following are true:
20:34:20 [wendy]
1. The Web content still conforms using user agents that only support the technologies that are in the baseline (i.e. the use of technologies that are not in the baseline does not "break" access to the Web content by user agents that don't support them.)
20:34:21 [wendy]
2. All content and functionality is available using only the baseline technologies.
20:34:43 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li.a
20:34:48 [wendy]
above is proposal for guideline 4.2 l1 sc 1
20:35:28 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li
20:35:44 [wendy]
additionally, the current proposal for guideline 4.2 l1 sc1 would become sc 2
20:36:51 [Zakim]
wendy, you asked to be pinged at this time
20:38:06 [wendy]
propose that piece above doesn't leave the "conformance requirements" section. stays there *and* is repeated as SC in 4.2.
20:39:22 [wendy]
s/is available using/are available using
20:39:36 [wendy]
issue: specifically reference baseline in a SC
20:39:57 [wendy]
however, saying "whatever baseline you choose..."
20:40:58 [jslatin]
q?
20:42:07 [wendy]
john? zakim gave time warning 5 minutes ago.
20:43:54 [wendy]
ack loretta
20:44:56 [wendy]
it is in the definition of the conformance levels: e.g.
20:44:58 [wendy]
1. Any conformance with WCAG 2.0 requires that all level 1 success criteria for all guidelines be met assuming user agent support for only the technologies in the chosen baseline.
20:44:59 [wendy]
q+
20:45:04 [wendy]
ack loretta
20:45:45 [wendy]
tim disagrees using "baseline" in the definitions of level a, aa, aaa
20:46:29 [wendy]
tim's comment in survey: QA, "fragmentation" of market, interoperability concerns. I don't think that "baseline" should be strictly included as an integral part of the WCAG conformance model (should not be part of definition sentences of A,AA,AAA conformance); I think that baseline information should be included with other relevant information as part of a WCAG conformance claim, but should...
20:46:30 [wendy]
...be kept separate from the WCAG conformance model per se.
20:48:01 [wendy]
conformance claim examples and proposals: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0021.html
20:48:06 [wendy]
q+
20:48:14 [gregg]
q+
20:48:24 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:51:32 [wendy]
example and proposal may address tim's concerns
20:51:35 [wendy]
ack gregg
20:53:15 [wendy]
ack lor
20:55:43 [ben]
resolved: include proposed SC1 (adapted from the conformance proposal and pasted above) in next draft as first SC under 4.2
20:56:41 [wendy]
issue: author assumptions are not incorporated in conformance requirements.
20:58:01 [wendy]
the following paragraph was not intended to be dropped "The Working Group believes that success criteria at all 3 levels are important or essential for some people. Thus, the old descriptions of "impossible to access" for Level A, "difficult to access" for Level AA, and "somewhat difficult" for Level AAA are no longer used. Instead we define the three levels as above."
20:58:58 [wendy]
add an ednote, "ongoing WCAG WG study..."?
20:59:58 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
21:00:01 [wendy]
action: tim add issue to bugzilla re: conformance and baseline
21:00:48 [wendy]
resolved: replace current "conformance requirements" section with proposed+existing last paragraph
21:01:42 [wendy]
action: ben and wendy add issues from survey to bugzilla (against conformance requirements section)
21:02:19 [wendy]
action 2 = ben and wendy add their issues from survey to bugzilla (against conformance requirements section) [i.e., we don't need to add all issues, only those we raised. others feel free to add your issues if youw ant further discussion]
21:03:01 [wendy]
resolved: proposal for 4.2 l1 sc 1 (now sc 2) will go back to subgroup for further work to address comments.
21:03:18 [wendy]
action: loretta continue to shepherd discussion of guideline 4.2 SC
21:03:37 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
21:03:37 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
21:03:38 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:03:39 [Zakim]
5. GL 3.1 (25 minutes) [from wendy]
21:03:53 [Christophe]
I've got to go now. See you next week.
21:04:00 [wendy]
bye christophe
21:04:03 [Zakim]
-Christophe_Strobbe
21:04:06 [Christophe]
Christophe has left #wai-wcag
21:04:08 [wendy]
agenda?
21:04:13 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 3
21:04:13 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "GL 2.5 (25 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
21:04:30 [wendy]
results from 2.5 survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/minerror0517/results
21:05:11 [wendy]
Proposed wording Level 2 SC 1: If an input error is detected, the error is identified and provided to the user in text.
21:06:30 [wendy]
resolved: adopt proposed wording for Guideline 2.5 Level 2 SC 1
21:06:55 [wendy]
Proposed wording level 2 SC2: If an input error is detected and suggestions for correction are known and can be provided without jeopardizing security or purpose, the error is identified and the suggestions are provided to the user in text.
21:07:31 [wendy]
editorial suggestion: "the security or purpose of the content"
21:07:37 [Becky_Gibson]
q+
21:08:12 [wendy]
editorial suggestion: add "in text" at the end. [some felt this was too constraining]
21:08:28 [gregg]
q+
21:08:31 [wendy]
ack becky
21:09:13 [wendy]
proposal: instead of "in text" "in a manner that conforms to the guidelines"
21:10:32 [wendy]
issue: do we say each time "conform to the guidelines" or is that obvious?
21:11:44 [wendy]
proposal: suggestions are provided. [since enough information, even about error messages, should be part of delivery unit to make perceivable unit accessible]
21:12:48 [wendy]
resolved: adopted L2SC2 If an input error is detected and suggestions for correction are known and can be provided without jeopardizing the security or purpose of the content, the error is identified and the suggestions are provided to the user.
21:12:57 [wendy]
s/adopted/adopt
21:13:39 [wendy]
Proposed wording Level 2 SC 3: For forms that cause legal or financial transactions to occur, that modify or delete data in remote data storage systems, or that submit test responses, at least one of the following is true:...
21:14:46 [wendy]
Issue 1344 - Reject suggestion that we require all actions should be reversible?
21:14:59 [wendy]
resolved: reject issue 1344
21:15:33 [wendy]
zakim, ping me in 7 minutes
21:15:33 [Zakim]
ok, wendy
21:16:19 [wendy]
Proposed wording Level 3 SC 2: If there are more than 75 choices, selection lists must not be the only means of providing the input choice. Another input method, such as a text entry field, text typing to select items from list, or a search function, must be provided instead of, or in addition to, the selection list.
21:16:41 [wendy]
issue against: Proposed wording makes it impossible for several web applications. For example: an online chess game where there are more than 75 choices of which piece to move where. The current wording would be no problem, because the game doesn't require text entry so it wouldn't apply. The proposed wording suggests that you provide the choices in a selection as well as another method...
21:16:43 [wendy]
...which is very strange.
21:17:33 [wendy]
other issues: 75 is arbitrary, proposed wording is better but should remove the criterion
21:18:06 [wendy]
q+
21:18:09 [wendy]
ack gregg
21:18:22 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:18:56 [wendy]
ack john
21:20:20 [wendy]
q+
21:20:45 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:21:37 [wendy]
ack lor
21:22:34 [Zakim]
wendy, you asked to be pinged at this time
21:28:12 [joeclark]
joeclark has joined #wai-wcag
21:30:05 [wendy]
q+
21:30:08 [wendy]
ack alex
21:30:24 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:31:25 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1017
21:31:59 [wendy]
discussion about how this change came about. concern that it doesn't belong here -typing vs picking info is not a way to prevent error. it's about efficiency.
21:34:07 [wendy]
75 purposefully higher than 50-60 so that it wouldn't apply to u.s. states, etc.
21:34:52 [wendy]
Current text: Where text entry is required for which there is a known set of less than 75 valid choices and they can be provided without jeopardizing security or purpose, users are allowed to select from a list of options as well as to type the data directly.
21:35:31 [wendy]
Proposed text: If there are more than 75 choices, selection lists must not be the only means of providing the input choice. Another input method, such as a text entry field, text typing to select items from list, or a search function, must be provided instead of, or in addition to, the selection list.
21:37:29 [wendy]
Rationale for proposal: The current success criterion was split into 2 per a proposal from December 2004. Related to issue 1017. Consensus not reached on 10 and 75 as thresholds. Andi suggests removing this criterion since it appears to be technology dependent.
21:40:53 [wendy]
no resolution.
21:41:05 [wendy]
action: gregg will take action to discuss with andi
21:41:20 [wendy]
action 4 = gregg talk with andi about guideline 2.5
21:43:13 [wendy]
resolved: current text is better than proposed text for this particular success criterion. for now, keep current wording.
21:43:58 [wendy]
action 4 = gregg talk with andi about guideline 2.5. ask andi if proposed text fits better under a different SC.
21:45:27 [wendy]
Issue 1351 and Issue 1396 had split feedback.
21:45:39 [wendy]
andi should look at feedback and return with an updated proposal.
21:45:57 [wendy]
Issue 1344 non-controversial. close.
21:46:58 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
21:46:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
21:46:59 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
21:47:00 [Zakim]
5. GL 3.1 (25 minutes) [from wendy]
21:47:04 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 5
21:47:04 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "GL 3.1 (25 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
21:47:06 [ben]
Results of Questionnaire - Proposal for Guideline 3.1: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/meaning0516/results
21:48:04 [wendy]
Proposed text: Guideline 3.1 Make text content readable and understandable.
21:48:37 [wendy]
concern about testability of "readable" and "understandable"
21:49:54 [wendy]
concern about only making text accessible? what about graphics/images?
21:49:55 [wendy]
ack john
21:51:00 [wendy]
js willing to think about, however likely a separate guideline (to make non-text content accessible)
21:52:12 [mcmay]
q+
21:52:15 [wendy]
ack alex
21:52:19 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li
21:52:38 [wendy]
q+ alex
21:52:40 [wendy]
ack mc
21:52:57 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li
21:54:24 [wendy]
ack alex
22:01:36 [wendy]
john clarifies difference between "readable" and "understandable" and that at this time, none of the proposals address "understandable"
22:02:34 [Zakim]
-JasonWhite
22:02:52 [wendy]
time check?
22:06:56 [wendy]
action: john update proposals based on feedback from survey. ask people to make comments before the weekend to have a chance to incorporate.
22:07:25 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:07:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:07:36 [Zakim]
-Matt
22:07:36 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:07:36 [Zakim]
-Mike_Barta
22:07:36 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li
22:07:37 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
22:11:20 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html
22:13:06 [ben]
ben has left #wai-wcag
22:16:11 [joeclark]
joeclark has left #wai-wcag
22:23:30 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
22:23:32 [Zakim]
-Ben_and_Gregg
22:23:36 [Zakim]
-Wendy
22:23:41 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG weekly
22:23:52 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:23:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Makoto
22:23:56 [wendy]
zakim, drop Makoto
22:23:56 [Zakim]
Makoto is being disconnected
22:23:57 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:23:58 [Zakim]
Attendees were Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy, Makoto, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben_and_Gregg, Alex_Li, Tim_Boland, Michael_Cooper, JasonWhite, Matt, Becky_Gibson, Mike_Barta
22:24:03 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:24:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:26:02 [wendy]
Regrets: Roberto Castaldo, Roberto Scano, Sebastiano Nutarelli, Yvette Hoitink, WATANABE Takayuki, Roberto Ellero, Andi Snow-Weaver
22:26:16 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:26:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
23:04:23 [wendy]
zakim, bye
23:04:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
23:04:27 [wendy]
RRSAGent, bye
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items:
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tim add issue to bugzilla re: conformance and baseline [1]
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T21-00-01
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben and wendy add their issues from survey to bugzilla (against conformance requirements section) [i.e., we don't need to add all issues, only those we raised. others feel free to add your issues if youw ant further discussion] [2]
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T21-01-42
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: loretta continue to shepherd discussion of guideline 4.2 SC [3]
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T21-03-18
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: gregg talk with andi about guideline 2.5. ask andi if proposed text fits better under a different SC. [4]
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T21-41-05
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john update proposals based on feedback from survey. ask people to make comments before the weekend to have a chance to incorporate. [5]
23:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T22-06-56