13:31:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
13:31:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc
13:31:46 <ben> RRSAgent, make log world
13:32:09 <ben> Meeting: WCAG Techniques Task Force (TTF) Weekly Telecon
13:32:41 <ben> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0507.html
13:33:15 <ben> agenda+ 4.2 (test cases)
13:33:24 <ben> agenda+ Continue review of 1.3
13:33:31 <ben> agenda+ 2.4
13:33:37 <ben> agenda+ Script Techniques
13:51:27 <leasa> hi ben!
13:51:39 <ben> good morning
13:51:57 <leasa> (afternoon...)
13:52:00 <ben> :)
13:57:10 <ChrisR> ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
13:57:26 <leasa> Hi cris!
13:58:05 <Christophe_Strobb> Christophe_Strobb has joined #wai-wcag
13:58:43 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
13:59:28 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
13:59:35 <Zakim> +Ben
14:01:16 <Zakim> +??P3
14:01:26 <Zakim> +Dave_MacDonald
14:01:57 <ben> zakim, ??P3 is Chris
14:01:57 <Zakim> +Chris; got it
14:02:24 <Zakim> +??P13
14:02:40 <Zakim> +Christophe_Strobbe
14:02:42 <ben> zakim, ??P13 is Lisa
14:02:42 <Zakim> +Lisa; got it
14:03:20 <Becky_Gibson> Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag
14:03:25 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
14:03:49 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
14:04:35 <Michael> Michael has joined #wai-wcag
14:05:24 <ben> Chair: Michael_Cooper
14:07:13 <Michael> Michael has joined #wai-wcag
14:07:16 <ben> agenda?
14:08:07 <ben> scribe: Chris
14:09:43 <ben> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:09:43 <Zakim> agendum 1. "4.2 (test cases)" taken up [from ben]
14:09:57 <ben> Present: 06Ben, Chris, Dave_MacDonald, Lisa, Christophe_Strobbe, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson01
14:10:17 <Zakim> +Wendy
14:10:27 <ben> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0360.html
14:10:33 <wendy> wendy has joined #wai-wcag
14:10:52 <ChrisR> David will send proposal to list re d-link
14:11:20 <ChrisR> New fangled d-link (description of object)
14:11:48 <ChrisR> BG: did test on IE and object not detected
14:12:03 <ChrisR> BG: HPR will find text for object tag
14:12:31 <ChrisR> BG: even if flash, or whatever, is turned on - passed on to Freedom Scientific
14:13:18 <ChrisR> BG: created DHTML java test file, but can't query object, can post if anyone interested
14:13:36 <ChrisR> DM: hate d-link idea but see no other fallback
14:14:15 <ChrisR> BC: needs to be repair technique
14:14:23 <ChrisR> BG & DM ack
14:14:50 <ChrisR> BG: what about Applet? (not xhtml)
14:16:02 <ben> HTML Tech 12.2 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#progobj-fallback
14:17:43 <ChrisR> DM: do not want to say that fallbacks are unnecessary, remove note from 12.2
14:18:16 <ChrisR> DM: if baseline is provided is fallback necessary
14:18:35 <ChrisR> MC: keep technique, baseline it and move to 1.1
14:18:56 <ChrisR> DM: agree
14:19:01 <ChrisR> BC: OK
14:19:30 <ChrisR> WC: will be doing summary for 1.1 this week, will work with David
14:21:05 <ChrisR> action: David will put to group, Michael will respond
14:21:35 <ben> 12.3 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#progobj-altcontent
14:21:43 <ChrisR> DM: delete 12.3 cuz it's covered by 4.2
14:22:32 <ChrisR> BG: they are seperate techs, questions if should be grouped
14:24:04 <ChrisR> DM: we're asking for 2 of same thing (text in 2 places)
14:25:05 <ChrisR> DM: wish text in object would be supported
14:25:29 <ChrisR> BC: not really requiring in 2 places
14:26:54 <ChrisR> DM: perhaps put into 12.3?
14:28:10 <ChrisR> DM: keep as seperate and include d-link idea in 12.4, will post this idea to list
14:29:22 <ChrisR> BC: 12.3 is repair for 12.4
14:30:31 <ChrisR> MC: if 12.4 doesn't work, use 12.3
14:31:53 <ChrisR> action: DM will move d-link funky thing into 12.3 and keep both
14:32:20 <ben> 12.5 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#applet-content
14:33:46 <ChrisR> WC: looks like 1.1, why discuss under 4.2?
14:34:49 <ChrisR> WC: should be under 1.1
14:35:09 <ChrisR> DM: propses they go under 4.2
14:36:16 <ChrisR> DM: they are specific to applets and plugins (4.2) not really alt content (1.1)
14:37:48 <ChrisR> WC: need to link examples to SC
14:38:34 <ChrisR> WC: must be clear about mapping
14:38:48 <ChrisR> MC: leaning towards 1.1, BC agrees
14:40:05 <ChrisR> WC: depends on how we define non-text content, if we say non-text is applets etc. then must provide text
14:40:16 <ChrisR> WC: and make applet/object accessible
14:41:32 <ChrisR> discussion of how 1.1 and 4.2 relates and what if 4.2 dropped
14:42:00 <ChrisR> DM: eventually have to deal with this but can drop for now
14:43:19 <ChrisR> WC: have we got a tech for alternate for object if baseline excludes it?
14:44:01 <leasa> q+
14:44:46 <ChrisR> WC: if applet is sortof eye candy then is covered by techs, critical applets are not
14:45:37 <ben> ack leasa
14:49:44 <wendy> agenda?
14:50:41 <ChrisR> DM: will look for real-world applets
14:51:14 <ChrisR> DM: move over to 1.1?
14:51:23 <ChrisR> general agreement
14:52:59 <ChrisR> WC looks forward to hearing DM's suggestions
14:54:14 <ben> 12.10 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050211/#download-viewer
14:54:56 <ChrisR> DM: suggest keep as is, minor text change
14:55:40 <ChrisR> MC: artifact of 508 and baseline idea means we don't SC and don't need tech
14:56:55 <ChrisR> BC: example of 2 versions of PDF reader so tech could be usefull
15:01:24 <ChrisR> MC: anyone that doesn't have viewer is affected, not just PWD
15:03:07 <ChrisR> WC: difficult to support tech until 4.2 is resolved
15:03:59 <ChrisR> action: push discussion of 12.10 to Thursday call
15:06:50 <ben> zakim, close this item
15:06:50 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
15:06:51 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:06:52 <Zakim> 2. Continue review of 1.3 [from ben]
15:07:00 <Zakim> -Dave_MacDonald
15:07:05 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
15:07:07 <Zakim> -Ben
15:07:16 <ben> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:07:16 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Continue review of 1.3" taken up [from ben]
15:11:05 <Zakim> +Dave_MacDonald
15:11:16 <Zakim> +John_Slatin
15:12:06 <David> scribe: dm
15:12:15 <Michael> scribe: David
15:12:19 <Zakim> +Christophe_Strobbe
15:12:46 <Zakim> +Ben
15:14:09 <David> mc: tim boland summarized existing definitions, John ran with it
15:14:31 <David> js: jim said there was no defn' of technology
15:14:49 <David> js: so he put some defn' forward
15:15:08 <David> s/jim/tim
15:15:41 <Becky_Gibson> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0503.html
15:16:15 <David> js: everybody agrees we need uniform defn'
15:16:34 <leasa> leaving the call
15:17:00 <ben> John's proposed def. of techniques - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0503.html
15:17:01 <David> bye lisa
15:17:04 <leasa> something urgent just cam eup
15:17:06 <leasa> buy
15:17:23 <Zakim> -Lisa
15:17:25 <ben> 1.3 Techniques Issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/att-0345/00-part
15:17:30 <leasa> leasa has left #wai-wcag
15:18:37 <David> bg: suggest we move it out
15:19:00 <David> mc: if there are accessibility implications in the future we will need it
15:19:19 <David> js: JAWS now suports Rowgroup element
15:19:41 <David> mc: use tbody to make row groups
15:20:00 <David> bc: optional because not applicable to talbles
15:20:17 <David> bc: not needed for all tables
15:20:36 <David> bc: on simple data table no need to worry about it
15:22:43 <David> js: thead holds headings row...significant for low vision
15:23:04 <David> bg: sounds like css tech
15:23:41 <David> js: lets keep it and a few of us research it
15:24:28 <ben> action: michael, work on examples for technique 7.4
15:24:59 <David> bg: what's Joe's tbody examble
15:25:22 <ben> s/examble/example?
15:25:33 <David> yup
15:26:25 <David> js: part of it is because techs are so fine grained we are daling with different aspects of it in dif technique
15:26:41 <David> wc: do the need to be separate techniques??????
15:27:01 <David> wc: but it could get very long
15:27:48 <David> js: is that groupng better suited to the guide doc
15:29:02 <David> wc: if we can just explain our thinking of when to apply these attributes then we teahc them how to make decisions, that would mean it makes sense in html docs. I'm concerned that guide doc, could get long for various html techniques
15:29:22 <David> wc: would be cool to make a tree doc
15:30:03 <wendy> s/tree doc/decision tree that helps people understand what decisions to make.
15:30:16 <David> mc: I will make a proposal to make tree doc flowchart
15:31:04 <Michael> action: Michael make tree doc flowchart of selecting table header approach
15:31:16 <David> bc: sounds like the application doc we talked about...the guidance that you are bring up is more tutorial oriented
15:32:12 <David> mc: I have a clear picture in my mind
15:32:38 <David> wc: when do you want to bring it to the group
15:33:24 <David> wc: flowchart is the interesting part. prioritize there
15:34:26 <David> mc: decision tree arod when to use specific table things
15:35:10 <David> mc: this will help with 8, 9, 10 in 1.3
15:35:24 <David> and 7
15:35:41 <wendy> 11. Categorizing data cells
15:36:19 <David> bg: #11 cites bug 653
15:37:47 <David> wc: intent is to query the data in a data table based on category but I don't think anyone uses it.
15:38:16 <David> wc: window eyes and Jaws don't do it
15:39:02 <David> js: it tries to turn table into 3 D but I don't understand it
15:39:18 <David> dm: if we don't get it will general public be able to do it
15:39:42 <David> wc: it is part of WCAG 1.0 and so it needs a placeholder
15:41:36 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-table-markup
15:41:45 <David> mc: two options throw it out or keep it, 
15:41:53 <David> all: out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:42:57 <David> wc: will put placeholder for transition
15:43:43 <David> bg: math ML 
15:45:15 <David> deals with 12.1
15:45:24 <David> mc: let's comment it out
15:45:29 <wendy> 12. Markup and style sheets rather than images: the example of math
15:45:48 <David> js: if we want a math ml tecniques let's ask Neil Soiffer, 
15:46:08 <David> wc: he said he would but organizaing it is hard
15:46:17 <David> closede 184
15:46:22 <wendy> 13. CSS styling
15:46:29 <David> closed bug 184
15:47:07 <David> bg: let's remove it or give it specific examples
15:49:07 <David> wc: this is what I was trying to get at at the tech lenary. most started with html tests, there is so much overlap with HTML, let's inlcude css in here
15:50:28 <David> mc: next week's agenda will be to include wendy's proposal to include CSS in html techniques
15:51:38 <David> mc: comment out again
15:52:11 <David> bc: let's just kill it
15:53:38 <David> wc: survey's have go to list we can to  a survey on it.
15:53:56 <David> bg: next would be my list of proposed techniques
15:54:15 <wendy> Proposed HTML Techniques.
15:54:16 <wendy> 1  Technique for marking up plain text documents. 
15:54:54 <David> bg: if we have to deal with plain te3st documents depending on 1.3 then we have to write a tehniue
15:55:07 <David> technique
15:55:14 <wendy> 2. Do we need an HTML technique for L1 SC3 about color - there are currently none?   
15:56:27 <David> mc: perhaps no need for css techniques, no nooed for html technique
15:56:46 <wendy> 3. Perhaps a technique to address Issue #1244,  Image-based headings 
15:57:48 <David> bg: if they must use img headers should show image based heading wrapper, create a technique
15:59:02 <David> bc: finds headers and dynamically created flash objects, in a specific font, 
15:59:12 <David> wc; cool thing about it is text is still text
16:00:47 <David> wc: we can reference this technique
16:01:12 <David> bg: we can't include a techique for flash
16:01:39 <Michael> action: John explore progressive enhancement
16:01:41 <ben> sIFR: http://www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/
16:01:59 <David> bg: we will reference this technique
16:02:24 <David> bg: select element
16:03:25 <David> wc: thomas casper says they are different,
16:03:47 <wendy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2004Sep/0013.html
16:04:12 <Michael> action: Becky follow up on issue 1199
16:06:43 <David> chistophe has guidelines summary for thrusday call, then someone (Chistophe?) can do summary
16:06:53 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
16:06:55 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:06:56 <Zakim> -Ben
16:06:56 <Zakim> -Chris
16:06:57 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
16:06:57 <Zakim> -Dave_MacDonald
16:06:58 <ChrisR> ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
16:07:00 <ben> agenda?
16:07:07 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:07:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see Wendy, John_Slatin
16:07:08 <ben> zakim, close agendum 2
16:07:08 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
16:07:09 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:07:10 <Zakim> 3. 2.4 [from ben]
16:07:14 <ben> zakim, close agendum 3
16:07:14 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
16:07:16 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:07:17 <Zakim> 4. Script Techniques [from ben]
16:07:20 <ben> zakim, close agendum 4
16:07:20 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
16:07:21 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
16:07:28 <Christophe_Strobb> Christophe_Strobb has left #wai-wcag
16:07:30 <ben> RRSAgent, please generate minutes
16:07:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben
16:08:52 <ben> RRSAgent, bye
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items:
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: David will put to group, Michael will respond [1]
16:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T14-21-05
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DM will move d-link funky thing into 12.3 and keep both [2]
16:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T14-31-53
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: push discussion of 12.10 to Thursday call [3]
16:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T15-03-59
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: michael, work on examples for technique 7.4 [4]
16:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T15-24-28
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael make tree doc flowchart of selecting table header approach [5]
16:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T15-31-04
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John explore progressive enhancement [6]
16:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T16-01-39
16:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Becky follow up on issue 1199 [7]
16:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/18-wai-wcag-irc#T16-04-12
16:08:56 <ben> Zakim, Bye
16:08:56 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Ben, Dave_MacDonald, Chris, Christophe_Strobbe, Lisa, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, John_Slatin
16:08:56 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag