IRC log of dawg on 2005-05-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:17:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:17:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:17:48 [JanneS]
14:21:49 [DanC]
fun with SPARQL and my itinerary:
14:21:50 [DanC]
SELECT ?ar WHERE { [ t:arrivalTime ?ar; k:toLocation [ apt:iataCode "AMS" ] ] }
14:21:57 [DanC]
SPARQLer Results
14:21:57 [DanC]
14:21:57 [DanC]
14:22:29 [AndyS]
14:23:00 [kendall]
yeah, you can score chicks with that kind of magic! :>
14:23:02 [HiroyukiS]
HiroyukiS has joined #DAWG
14:23:32 [DanC]
SELECT ?ar WHERE { [ cal:dtend ?ar; k:toLocation [ apt:iataCode "AMS" ] ] }
14:23:39 [DanC]
SPARQLer Results
14:23:39 [DanC]
14:23:39 [DanC]
14:24:02 [AndyS]
"Pass results are not a prediction of the future. Your arrival may differ"
14:24:22 [DanC]
hey, it's encoded in RDF. It *must* be true.
14:24:23 [DanC]
14:25:07 [AndyS]
At the moment it is ... temporal montonicity not implemented (fixed in the next release)
14:25:35 [AndyS]
"this fact may be withdrawn at any time"
14:27:35 [kendall]
DanC: fyi, I can only stay 75 minutes today; not sure how long the agenda is...
14:27:47 [DanC]
well, the protocol stuff is at the beginning
14:27:56 [kendall]
14:28:17 [kendall]
i've gotta get my powerbook to the delivery service by noon ;>
14:28:25 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:28:32 [Zakim]
14:28:37 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P11 is AndyS
14:28:37 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:28:54 [AndyS]
Oh dear - gravity problems?
14:28:59 [Zakim]
14:29:12 [Zakim]
14:29:18 [Zakim]
14:29:22 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:29:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:29:26 [kendall]
(hard drive died on sunday)
14:30:01 [AndyS]
14:30:03 [Zakim]
14:30:04 [kendall]
it's toast!
14:30:15 [Yoshio]
oh, too bad, kendall
14:30:15 [JanneS]
uh, did someone change pass code..
14:30:23 [Zakim]
14:30:27 [Zakim]
14:30:34 [AndyS]
It's 7333#
14:30:35 [JanneS]
Zakim, IPcaller is JanneS
14:30:35 [Zakim]
+JanneS; got it
14:30:50 [DanC]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:30:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, Kendall_Clark, Yoshio, ??P20, ??P21, JanneS
14:31:01 [HiroyukiS]
Zakim, ??P20 is HiroyukiS
14:31:01 [Zakim]
+HiroyukiS; got it
14:32:00 [kendall]
wow, janne, i didn't understand any of that ;>
14:32:10 [kendall]
14:32:27 [JanneS]
14:32:32 [kendall]
Banerjee, got it
14:33:11 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:33:43 [Zakim]
14:33:54 [kendall]
so, if you have a powerbook, I recommend two things: (1) don't ignore drive clicking noises; it's a known, progressively worsening problem; (2) get the S.M.A.R.T. utility thingie that displays drive status on the desktop
14:33:58 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:33:58 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:34:14 [kendall]
Steve H?
14:34:44 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:34:44 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:35:10 [DanC]
3 May minutes
14:35:25 [JanneS]
approved minutes from 2 minutes ago
14:35:30 [JanneS]
from 2 weeks ago, sorry
14:36:04 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:36:04 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Next meeting, schedule to LC" taken up [from DanC]
14:36:06 [AndyS]
14:36:12 [DanC]
jeen_ has to convey regrets for the telcon
14:37:55 [JanneS]
discussing last call schedule, background in
14:40:05 [Zakim]
14:40:10 [kendall]
hi pat
14:40:14 [kendall]
14:40:52 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
14:40:55 [JanneS]
looking for volunteer to analyse grammar before lc
14:42:05 [JanneS]
is something missing from Dan's list?
14:42:50 [JanneS]
DanC: would be useful to have formal definitions before lc
14:43:54 [JanneS]
Pat: feeling enough quilty to do the check for formalilities :)
14:45:38 [JanneS]
Dan: we're looking for volunteers and if they don't show up, they are assumed to rely on others' view
14:46:10 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:46:10 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:46:11 [DanC]
PatH: at risk next week
14:46:21 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:46:21 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HiroyukiS
14:46:33 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:46:33 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JanneS
14:46:39 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:46:39 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HiroyukiS
14:46:41 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:46:42 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Yoshio
14:46:52 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:46:52 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JanneS
14:46:59 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:46:59 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AndyS
14:47:06 [AndyS]
I can scribe but I will need a backup for QL items
14:47:19 [kendall]
i can help andy too
14:47:23 [AndyS]
14:47:26 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:47:26 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:47:32 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:47:32 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "issue: xmlAbstractSyntax" taken up [from DanC]
14:47:33 [JanneS]
next meeting May 24th, Chair: Dan, Scribe: Andy
14:47:37 [kendall]
(having to mute yrself to type SUCKS!)
14:48:41 [JanneS]
Kendall has not seen critical mass for this work - looks like a candidate for future work.
14:50:02 [JanneS]
proposal is to postpone as in
14:50:03 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:50:03 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:50:09 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:50:09 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:50:27 [patH]
kendall, you need a phone with a mute button on it.
14:50:32 [DanC]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:50:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, Kendall_Clark, Yoshio, HiroyukiS, ??P21, JanneS, JosD, PatH
14:50:33 [kendall]
yep :>
14:52:00 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to postpone xmlAbstractSyntax on the grounds that it seems more straightforward to do in a later version
14:52:42 [DanC]
14:53:32 [DanC]
relevant edits already done
14:53:38 [DanC]
only thing left is to update issues list
14:53:42 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:53:42 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "issue wsdlAbstractProtocol" taken up [from DanC]
14:54:06 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:54:06 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:54:48 [kendall]
coped w/ some mods, btw
14:55:17 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:55:17 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:57:57 [JanneS]
discussing implementation experience of sparql protocol interfaces..
14:59:54 [JanneS]
Andy elaborated their work where the client doesn't parse the query expression but rather reacts on the content-type sent by the server (application/xml for variable bindings and application/rdf+xml for graphs)
15:01:19 [JanneS]
Kendall said theirs is similar in that it reacts on the mime type and constructs either an Iterator or a TripleStore interface object at the client.
15:02:43 [AndyS]
Dan's design for API has "requestGraph" -> RDF and "requestResultSet" -> XMl results
15:02:53 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:02:53 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:02:54 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: try splitting SparqlQuery interface into SparqlGraph SparqlBindings, say
15:03:33 [kendall]
My point earlier about Dan's design idea is that it simplifies the Out Message (since it's not an xs:choice any more), but it does that at the cost of doubling the number of operations and interfaces, which doesn't seem like a net simplicifaction to me
15:03:38 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:03:38 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:04:22 [DanC]
default-graph-uri named-graph-uri query
15:04:35 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:04:35 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "issue fromUnionQuery" taken up [from DanC]
15:05:20 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:05:20 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:06:04 [kendall]
I still believe, for the record, that WSDL machinery allows a deployment to rename all the concrete HTTP query parameters but declare their relation (or mapping) to the abstract ones...I guess we'll cross this bridge, if it is one, when we get to it.
15:06:10 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:06:10 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:06:20 [JanneS]
1.36 of includes default-graph-uri
15:07:03 [DanC]
"the protocol must be preferred by a SPARQL query service."
15:08:34 [JanneS]
Kendall: operation per interface approach enables easy check for conformance
15:08:35 [AndyS]
s/preferred/override/ ??
15:08:43 [DanC]
maybe use "SparqlQuery endpoint"
15:09:10 [DanC]
ACTION KendallC: reword "the protocol must be preferred by a SPARQL query service", perhaps w.r.t. the WSDL interface
15:09:30 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:09:30 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:09:33 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:09:33 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "issue serviceDescriptions" taken up [from DanC]
15:09:54 [kendall]
(Another advantage to having one protocol interface and one operation is not having to get into conformance issues. At least, IMO.)
15:09:59 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:09:59 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:10:24 [kendall]
I share the guilt, too.
15:11:04 [Yoshio]
me, too
15:12:24 [Yoshio]
I'm sorry, but I missed what you said, Kendall(?)
15:12:31 [DanC]
PROPOSED: whereas the serviceDescription designs aren't maturing in the timescale of the current schedule, and implementation experience is somewhat thin, to postpone serviceDescriptions
15:12:40 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:12:40 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:12:50 [Yoshio]
I agree
15:12:58 [AndyS]
15:13:03 [kendall]
Yoshio: I basically said that we may be ahead of the state of the implemented art for a standardization effort.
15:13:08 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:13:08 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:13:13 [DanC]
15:13:37 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:13:37 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "publishing results format, protocol" taken up [from DanC]
15:13:43 [JanneS]
ACTION EricP: to publish 1.25
15:13:43 [JanneS]
+ editorial notes from DaveB
15:13:55 [kendall]
a complete design doc is "new info", so people have that option :>
15:14:26 [DanC]
decision to publish protocol confirmed
15:14:39 [kendall]
latest is 1.43
15:14:52 [DanC] 1.25 and 1.29 diffs?
15:15:17 [JanneS]
2005-04-26. Added editorial issues for 2.3.3 and 4
15:15:17 [JanneS]
2005-04-25. Switched namespace prefixes to
15:15:17 [JanneS]
Added bindings element with sub-elements bnode, uri and literal.
15:15:17 [JanneS]
Added optional xsi:type for datatyped literals
15:15:17 [JanneS]
Updated XSLT and XQuery scripts to match new XML syntax.
15:15:18 [JanneS]
Point to SPARQL Query WD of 19 April 2005.
15:15:20 [JanneS]
2.3.3 Ordering Results New section describing how to record ordered results.
15:15:36 [JanneS]
that's copy paste from the two changes since February
15:16:18 [DanC]
KC: check with me before publishing, pls
15:16:20 [DanC]
DC: roger
15:16:22 [kendall]
15:16:56 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:16:56 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "SPARQL QL edits" taken up [from DanC]
15:19:04 [DanC]
"SPARQL query string"
15:20:48 [DanC]
15:21:07 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:21:07 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:24:44 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:24:44 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:24:46 [kendall]
that's cute, andy
15:25:43 [DanC]
ACTION: PatH to internal review of esp , given XSLT magic from AndyS
15:25:58 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:25:58 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "issue: sort" taken up [from DanC]
15:27:40 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that 1.328 and
15:27:40 [DanC]
15:27:40 [DanC]
address the sort issue
15:28:54 [JanneS]
I am hoping to send you implementation experience about this before May 24th
15:29:36 [AndyS]
15:29:41 [JanneS]
15:30:23 [DanC]
abstaining: KC, PatH, JosD
15:30:35 [DanC]
15:31:26 [DanC]
ACTION AndyS: get tests/data/sort/query-sort-1.rq marked approved
15:32:20 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:32:20 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "issue: valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]
15:32:41 [JanneS]
ACTION: DanC to send comment on non-use of
15:32:42 [JanneS]
<> to schema comments list
15:32:55 [JanneS]
ACTION: EricP to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe
15:32:55 [JanneS]
15:32:57 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:32:57 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:33:07 [JanneS]
ACTION: DaveB to work with EricP to clarify valueTesting proposal
15:33:44 [JanneS]
Comment from Oracle in
15:33:47 [DanC]
15:34:06 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: noodle on uri() and str() issue from email
15:34:16 [DanC]
0025 Re: Comments on SPARQL (datatypes, valueTesting)
15:35:10 [DanC]
the survey data andy gave is in
15:35:30 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:35:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, Kendall_Clark (muted), Yoshio, HiroyukiS, Jay, JanneS, JosD, PatH
15:35:38 [AndyS]
Plus SQL std defines DECIMAL (PostgreSQL supports, MySQL appears not to)
15:35:41 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:35:41 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:36:25 [Yoshio]
15:36:26 [AndyS]
Test "1.3" - 1.3 is exact as a xsd:decimal and approx as a xsd:double.
15:36:57 [Zakim]
15:37:06 [JanneS]
uh, line went dead - let me continue here.
15:37:41 [DanC]
janne, is 12.5 a float or a decimal?
15:37:43 [JanneS]
I don't have preference whether it'll be decimal or double.
15:38:36 [Zakim]
15:38:42 [JanneS]
Zakim, IPCaller is JanneS
15:38:42 [Zakim]
+JanneS; got it
15:38:55 [patH]
15:39:27 [Yoshio]
sorry, but let me withdraw my "no", but make it "not understanding the question and the background well"
15:41:02 [DanC]
15:42:08 [Yoshio]
q to ask "any feedback from attendents in the tutorial?"
15:42:10 [DanC]
-> timbl re str() on URIs, useMentionOp
15:43:33 [kendall]
I think it's worth some time, too
15:44:21 [JanneS]
the example is a good one, matching leading h character would match http uris.
15:45:06 [DanC]
{ <">> log:uri "" }
15:46:14 [JanneS]
this scribe would need to run for tonight
15:46:52 [kendall]
bye all
15:46:58 [Zakim]
15:47:16 [DanC]
15:47:20 [JanneS]
Action: Dan to rethink the use/mention issue w.r.t Tim's email
15:47:45 [JanneS]
bye - cu next week
15:47:47 [JanneS]
JanneS has left #dawg
15:47:54 [Zakim]
15:48:32 [DanC]
(my notes on KIF ... has gone 404 )
15:49:20 [patH]
15:49:47 [DanC]
"The term (name t) denotes the standard name for the object denoted by the term t."
15:50:18 [Zakim]
15:50:21 [Zakim]
15:51:14 [DanC]
(= (name PresidentClinton) 'PresidentClinton)
15:53:31 [Zakim]
15:56:03 [DanC]
SELECT ?P where { _:something ?P _:somethingElse FILTER str(?P) =~ "" }.
15:56:59 [DanC]
results like: ?P binds to <>
15:57:58 [DanC]
SELECT ?P where { _:something ?P _:somethingElse FILTER uri(?P) =~ "" }.
16:02:07 [patH]
16:02:18 [Zakim]
16:03:02 [DanC]
where he writes FILTER regex(str(?n), "^h", our design allows: FILTER regex(str(?n), "^h" and not(isuri(?n))
16:12:11 [Zakim]
16:12:12 [Zakim]
16:12:13 [Zakim]
16:12:14 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:12:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were AndyS, DanC, Kendall_Clark, Yoshio, [IPcaller], JanneS, HiroyukiS, JosD, PatH, Jay
16:13:49 [DanC]
jos, about serviceDescription and accessing collections... Agfa has picked up the N3 idioms and run with them, somewhat ahead of the rest of the WG... I think it would be cool to have a member submission showing how to use inference to do collection access, and defining some vocabulary for saying "my sparql service does that"
16:14:31 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
17:38:44 [JosD]
Hi, Dan just see you message and I would think we can work out something; am writing message to Stan and Helen to get some help (btw, for test case that makes quite some use of lists namely given and find
17:38:46 [JosD]
...we made unexpected progress in backward chaining step reduction; it almost came by "accident" in that we tried things like in ALL but found improvement to be combined with mechanism euler paths..)
17:40:21 [DanC]
17:40:31 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop