IRC log of dawg on 2005-05-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:29:09 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:29:09 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/03-dawg-irc

14:29:35 [Yoshio]

hello,

14:29:39 [DaveB]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:29:39 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P27, Yoshio

14:29:42 [Zakim]

+Jeen_Broekstra

14:29:45 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??P27 is DaveB

14:29:45 [Zakim]

+DaveB; got it

14:29:48 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:29:49 [howardk]

howardk has joined #dawg

14:29:50 [Zakim]

+??P30

14:29:52 [Yoshio]

zakim, mut me

14:29:52 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'mut me', Yoshio

14:29:55 [kendall]

(and i believe anyone can rename that abstract type in the GET URI serialization in their <service> section of a WSDL...)

14:29:55 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P30 is AndyS

14:29:55 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:30:11 [Zakim]

+Kendall_Clark

14:30:13 [DanC]

Meeting: RDF Data Access weekly

14:30:15 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:30:15 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

14:30:46 [DanC]

Topic: Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

14:30:50 [DanC]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0185.html

14:30:58 [AndyS]

Pref we suggest one comon one so simple clients don't have to lool in service description at all

14:31:01 [Zakim]

+??P33

14:31:19 [Zakim]

+Kevin

14:31:30 [KevinW]

KevinW has joined #DAWG

14:31:33 [AndyS]

e.g. I write a support library and ship it to many people for use on many services

14:31:42 [kendall]

Andy: I'm fine w/ that. But "default-graph-uri" is the last thing we talked about on mail/phone-call... DanC's suggestion to the contrary notwithstanding IMO

14:31:49 [Zakim]

+HowardK

14:32:17 [AndyS]

Don't care about the name much - as long as it is stable!

14:32:22 [kendall]

sure

14:32:30 [kendall]

yes, to scribing

14:32:31 [jannesaa]

jannesaa has joined #dawg

14:32:32 [AndyS]

DanC was jusy noting what people currently do, I think

14:32:37 [DanC]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:32:37 [Zakim]

On the phone I see DaveB, Yoshio (muted), Jeen_Broekstra, DanC, AndyS, Kendall_Clark (muted), ??P33, Kevin, HowardK

14:32:56 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P33 is JanneS

14:32:56 [Zakim]

+JanneS; got it

14:33:07 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2005/04/26-dawg-minutes

14:33:23 [DanC]

missing one of howard's actions

14:33:40 [DanC]

Janne was there

14:34:01 [kendall]

last week's minutes APPROVED, with Howard's action addition and with Janne attending (and with Jeen's misplaced "crap")...?

14:34:04 [JosD]

JosD has joined #dawg

14:34:48 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:35:06 [DanC]

next meeting 17 May?

14:35:20 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kendall_Clark (muted)

14:35:23 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AndyS

14:35:27 [kendall]

10 May -- no meeting because of WWW conflict

14:35:35 [kendall]

17 May -- meeting @ regular time, JanneS scribing

14:35:35 [Zakim]

+??P37

14:35:38 [jannes]

jannes has joined #dawg

14:35:52 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:35:53 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

14:36:45 [kendall]

(adding rules workshop precis to agenda)

14:36:47 [DanC]

agenda + rules workshop notes

14:36:58 [DanC]

Topic: issue fromUnionQuery

14:37:41 [kendall]

ericp: current design is a subset of the implemented algae expressivity

14:38:34 [kendall]

algae separates databases from provenance

14:39:21 [kendall]

eric's action continued

14:39:37 [DanC]

. ACTION: KendallC to draft protocol section on specifying datasets

14:39:37 [DanC]

(fromUnionQuery) including WSDL types and HTTP examples

14:40:36 [DanC]

params: default-graph-uri named-graph-uri

14:41:28 [DanC]

<xs:element minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="1" ref="default-graph-uri"></xs:elemen>t

14:41:28 [DanC]

<xs:element minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded" ref="named-graph-uri"></xs:element>

14:41:44 [DanC]

(hmm... spaces between them or multiple occurences?)

14:42:59 [DaveB]

fwiw output-xslt-params isn't as important as having an output-xslt-mime-type

14:43:07 [DanC]

named-graph-uri=x1&named-graph-uri=x2

14:43:41 [AndyS]

Do we want to use "default" in rq23 so protocol and rq23 agree? We have tended to say "default", not "background" in discussions.

14:43:52 [DaveB]

I'm waiting for http defn, examples. nothing there yet

14:44:12 [DanC]

typo: </xs:elemen>t

14:44:38 [Yoshio]

q+ to ask what if no deafult-graph-uri is given

14:45:31 [kendall]

Andy: I'd like them to agree, so "default" works for me in rq23

14:45:32 [DaveB]

why are the complexType contents in a sequence? surely the contents is unordered?

14:46:50 [kendall]

DaveB: yr right. don't need seq. i'll think about that and fix.

14:47:29 [Yoshio]

zakim, unmute me

14:47:29 [Zakim]

Yoshio should no longer be muted

14:49:25 [kendall]

(ah, the xs:sequences are artifacts of my schema editor...)

14:50:42 [AndyS]

I'm happy

14:51:25 [DaveB]

q+ a minor point

14:51:47 [Yoshio]

please someone summary up the answer to my question?

14:52:11 [kendall]

Yoshio: the behavior of an implementation when there is no default-graph-uri specified is itself unspecified

14:52:46 [kendall]

"output-xslt-mime-type"...is what Dave wants...

14:53:05 [kendall]

i thought that would be one of the output params

14:54:01 [AndyS]

I only support client-applied XSLT (currently) - server adds stylesheet, client auto does the xform

14:56:08 [AndyS]

Dave - would XSLT on client be OK for your usage?

14:57:37 [AndyS]

(such XSLT may be client accessible only - firewalls)

14:57:48 [DaveB]

I was saying sparqlx is operation2 of the only interface

14:58:14 [DaveB]

like an xslt transform, it's likely/possible this isn't implemetned

14:58:22 [DaveB]

sparqlx status is ...?uncertain?

14:59:49 [ericP]

q+ to discuss consistent language vs. consistent services

15:00:26 [DaveB]

I also see the proto-wd has a bunch of identifiers for languages and (some) unregistered mime types or xml vbr etc. in the saddle section. hmm. should xml vbr give a mime type hint?

15:01:28 [AndyS]

I hope to implment when there is a spec (HTTP examples should be enough). SOAP later.

15:01:38 [DaveB]

in tuscany I used output-type

15:01:41 [DanC]

output-type

15:01:43 [DanC]

is what i heard

15:01:55 [DaveB]

and what I used at http://librdf.org/2005/sparqling

15:01:56 [kendall]

output-xslt-mimetype work?

15:04:02 [kendall]

I agree that it makes things easier to teach users, but that's not a reason to *specify* it, IMO

15:04:46 [DaveB]

andy mentions he generates <?xml-stylesheet ... > optionally

15:04:59 [kendall]

+1 to eric's point

15:05:47 [DaveB]

can somebody type eric's point?

15:05:59 [DanC]

ericP: I'd rather leave XSLT outboard.

15:06:01 [kendall]

(sorry, hard to scribe and discuss at the same time)

15:06:31 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:06:43 [kendall]

+q to make a point about query/queryx

15:07:26 [Zakim]

+??P0

15:07:38 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P0 is AndyS

15:07:38 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

15:07:38 [ericP]

P0, is that you AndyS?

15:11:37 [kendall]

(well, fwiw, when it was *very* simple, i wasn't grudging. now that it's getting more complex, i'm more grudging. :)

15:12:13 [AndyS]

Tend to agree with KC

15:12:13 [DanC]

POLL: (0) no XSLT anywhere in SPARQL protocol, (1) ala Andy, a pointer that will come back in <?xml-stylesheet ?> for the client, (2) yes, standardize an interface where the server does XSLT, with mimetype and all

15:12:59 [DanC]

ack yoshio

15:14:16 [DanC]

2 0 0/1 - 0/1 0 - 0/1 0 0

15:14:24 [AndyS]

and Andy abstains

15:14:43 [DanC]

note Alberto and maybe morten does 2

15:15:01 [AndyS]

q+ to ask what is (non SWEB) practice

15:15:24 [DaveB]

3 impls of this vs 0 of wsdl :)

15:15:41 [kendall]

so?

15:15:43 [ericP]

q- ericP

15:16:43 [jannes]

Dave, put +1 on a WSDL side, too. We've implemented such as thing about a year ago for our product (but not the one we're discussing here)

15:20:00 [DanC]

DaveB: how about a separate interface: query-and-transform

15:21:30 [DanC]

Topic: protocol publication candidate

15:21:38 [DanC]

. ACTION: kendall to uncommment saddle stuff, email to list

15:22:16 [DanC]

. ACTION: Yoshio to edit saddle descriptions provided by KendallC

15:24:05 [kendall]

I intended to try to have a conversation with Yoshio, on list, in response to his questions...

15:24:19 [kendall]

hoping others will join in :>

15:25:08 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:25:08 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:25:37 [DanC]

ACTION: Yoshio to edit saddle descriptions provided by KendallC [Continues]

15:25:42 [AndyS]

q-

15:25:45 [kendall]

yes, bijan owes the world answers (bijan and Jacek)

15:25:49 [kendall]

that's done

15:25:51 [DanC]

1.35 does ACTION: KendallC to incorporate EricP's privacy text, salting to taste

15:25:53 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:25:53 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:26:17 [DanC]

. ACTION: KendallC to ask WSD WG for clarification about HTTP binding of WSDL2, esp lists of URIs

15:26:32 [DanC]

continues.

15:26:41 [DanC]

. ACTION: DanC to generate SELECT, CONSTRUCT, ASK protocol traces

15:26:54 [kendall]

there was so much free time at the rules workshop! :>

15:27:24 [kendall]

sounds right to me

15:27:36 [DanC]

Topic: results format

15:27:37 [kendall]

critical path of protocol draft is still danc, eric, yoshio, kendall

15:27:54 [jeen]

q+ on status of rdf varbinding results format vs. xml varbinding format

15:27:57 [DanC]

EricP http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/ 1.29 looks ready to go

15:28:44 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:28:44 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:29:24 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:29:24 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:29:29 [kendall]

(sorry, phone won't stop ringing)

15:30:18 [DaveB]

ref 2.3.3 of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/

15:31:06 [kendall]

sorry, dave :>

15:32:30 [kendall]

pfffhthhthttt!

15:32:38 [kendall]

Jeen asks what the status of the RDF results format is

15:32:50 [kendall]

SteveH has an action to publish it as a Note at his leisure

15:32:53 [DaveB]

discussion lead to ericP pubbing rf1 and protocol at same time; rf1 waits for protocol

15:32:55 [kendall]

Which may never happen

15:33:12 [jannes]

60 mins up, I would need to run for tonight

15:33:44 [DanC]

Topic: issue: valueTesting

15:33:49 [kendall]

bye Janne

15:33:50 [Zakim]

-JanneS

15:33:56 [Yoshio]

iltaa

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15:34:07 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#extendedType-eq-pass

15:34:08 [DanC]

. ACTION: EricP to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe

15:34:10 [kendall]

EricP to propose a test case for valuetesting

15:34:27 [kendall]

wants the action to continue with progress noted

15:35:05 [DaveB]

I got it now

15:35:17 [DanC]

$Revision: 1.43 $ http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#extendedtype-eq-pass

15:36:41 [DanC]

FILTER ?rot1 = ?rot2

15:36:43 [DaveB]

I wish I could see the results in that document

15:37:05 [DaveB]

the result http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ValueTesting/extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 is a 404 here

15:37:36 [DanC]

404 @ http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ValueTesting/extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3

15:38:18 [DaveB]

there's a system error mesage for ne-fail

15:38:22 [DanC]

"cannot open 'data/ValueTesting/extendedType-ne-fail.rq' for printing: No such file or directory"

15:38:36 [kendall]

2/3rds...cheap

15:40:07 [DanC]

ACTION: DanC to send comment on non-use of

15:40:07 [DanC]

<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes> to schema comments list

15:41:09 [DanC]

Topic: issue: sort

15:41:39 [DaveB]

added something?

15:42:08 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#sorting-one-of-one-column

15:43:13 [DaveB]

they are not sorted results in those answers right now

15:43:23 [kendall]

(Some discussion of whether the test results are correct?)

15:43:33 [kendall]

(er, scratch that)

15:43:39 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/Sorting/one-of-one-column-result.n3

15:44:16 [DaveB]

I'd prefer if the vbr xml term was the same as in the http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/result-set

15:44:50 [jeen]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/sort/

15:45:47 [DaveB]

vbr xml orders from 1

15:47:17 [kendall]

how do you spell that?

15:47:31 [AndyS]

Seems to be me

15:47:34 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:47:34 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:47:42 [AndyS]

I'm muted here now

15:47:45 [DaveB]

discussion went to use rs:index and ordering from 1...

15:47:46 [kendall]

DC's a rough town!

15:48:03 [AndyS]

That email thread was small details only

15:48:15 [AndyS]

Have not tried todays test - rest were fine by me

15:48:20 [DaveB]

I found a typo in the sort/manifest.ttl - newline in a "literal"

15:48:25 [DanC]

andy, are you happy with the "more sorting test cases" thread state?

15:48:45 [AndyS]

Have not tried latest test but rest was OK

15:49:30 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:49:30 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:49:38 [AndyS]

Q1: non-determinate output

15:49:51 [DanC]

"ORDER BY" section of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#solutionsResults

15:50:12 [AndyS]

Hodl on ...

15:50:53 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:51:03 [DanC]

DanC is looking for definitions text re order by

15:51:29 [AndyS]

sec 10.1

15:51:41 [Zakim]

+??P0

15:51:53 [DaveB]

I just ran all the sort/*.rq tests - so the syntax is ok, but my sort checker runs sort(1) before comparing so that's not much use here!

15:51:56 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P0 is AndyS

15:51:56 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

15:52:59 [kendall]

(nice)

15:53:33 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.328 and @@TEST address the sort issue

15:54:53 [jeen]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/sort/query-sort-1.rq

15:55:11 [AndyS]

.me passed 8 of 8 after a CVS update - not looked at test 8 yet

15:55:28 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.328 and the test including http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/sort/query-sort-1.rq address the sort issue

15:56:16 [DanC]

poll... jeen... andy...

15:57:24 [DaveB]

there's no chance I'll do sorting in a week. maybe in 2 months

15:58:16 [kendall]

I will have looked at them carefully in a week.

15:59:11 [DanC]

DanC suggests that Andy do a "I hereby propose this for sort" msg to stir up any remaining comments

15:59:28 [DanC]

Topic: SPARQL QL edits

15:59:49 [DanC]

well, actually not.

16:00:22 [AndyS]

I declare victory on 7 action 1

16:00:25 [DanC]

ADJOURN. workshop chat after.

16:00:39 [Zakim]

-JosD

16:00:45 [Zakim]

-Kevin

16:00:47 [KevinW]

KevinW has left #DAWG

16:00:48 [howardk]

bye all

16:00:58 [Zakim]

-HowardK

16:01:14 [Zakim]

-Jeen_Broekstra

16:01:43 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

16:01:47 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

16:02:50 [jeen]

jeen has left #dawg