14:23:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:23:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/19-dawg-irc
14:23:25 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
14:23:50 <DanC> agenda + news from SparqlingDays
14:24:45 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:24:53 <Zakim> +Jeen_Broekstra
14:26:31 <howardk> wow, your guys' clock is fast! I show 7:25 am here. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ concurs. but I'll join you anyway. :-)
14:26:48 <Zakim> +??P26
14:26:50 <jeen> i was a bit early
14:26:54 <AndyS> zakim, ??P26 is AndyS
14:26:54 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:28:22 <Zakim> +??P27
14:28:29 <DaveB> Zakim, ??P27 is DaveB
14:28:29 <Zakim> +DaveB; got it
14:28:37 <Zakim> +DanC
14:28:39 <Zakim> +HowardK
14:28:43 <Zakim> -HowardK
14:29:25 <DanC> agenda order is 1, 10
14:29:26 <Zakim> +HowardK
14:29:46 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:29:46 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0122.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:30:25 <Zakim> +EricP
14:30:34 <DanC> andys asks: why separate ops for comparing integers and decimals?
14:30:56 <DanC> (not quite convened)
14:30:57 <ericP> can anybody hear me?
14:31:07 <DaveB> ericP: I can't
14:31:09 <DanC> nope, ericp
14:31:20 <Zakim> +??P31
14:31:25 <Zakim> +Kevin
14:31:28 <ericP> weak, worked two hours ago
14:31:29 <DanC> regrets: Yoshio, KendallC
14:31:31 <Zakim> -EricP
14:31:39 <Zakim> +EricP
14:31:54 <KevinW> KevinW has joined #DAWG
14:32:14 <Zakim> +AlbertoR
14:32:32 <AlbertoR> AlbertoR has joined #dawg
14:33:19 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 6
14:33:19 <Zakim> agendum 6. "issue: valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]
14:33:54 <DanC> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:33:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeen_Broekstra, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, HowardK, EricP, ??P31, Kevin, AlbertoR
14:33:56 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
14:33:56 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0122.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:34:40 <DanC> regrets: Yoshio, KendallC, Jos De Roo
14:35:17 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0095.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0101.html minutes
14:35:57 <jeen> minutes approved
14:36:01 <DanC> next meeting: 26 Apr
14:36:07 <DanC> regrets 2005-04-26: Jos De Roo
14:36:36 <jeen> scribe next week ericP
14:37:20 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
14:37:31 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DanC (41%)
14:37:47 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:37:47 <Zakim> agendum 10. "news from SparqlingDays" taken up [from DanC]
14:37:54 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:37:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeen_Broekstra, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, HowardK, EricP, JanneS, Kevin, AlbertoR
14:38:32 <jeen> AS has student looking into mapping sparql to sql
14:38:35 <DaveB> http://librdf.org/2005/sparqling
14:39:34 <DanC> DaveB: I don't think limit/offset belong in the protocol
14:40:18 <SteveH> i agree limit+offset aren't protocol features
14:41:30 <jeen> EP made an algea client
14:41:38 <DanC> I saw http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/04/17/the-gargonza-experiment/
14:41:58 <DaveB> most things can be found off http://rdf4food.asemantics.org/FrontPage
14:42:21 <ericP> algae CGI tool linked from http://www.w3.org/2004/10/18-RDF-WWW2005/
14:42:37 <ericP> actual script is at http://www.w3.org/2004/10/18-RDF-WWW2005/algae
14:42:49 <jeen> alberto: the idea of the sparqling days was to get together and try to set up some examples and demos
14:43:00 <howardk> andy: http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#N165E1 shows the four 'basic' numeric types for function operands; what you're saying about subtype substitution is correct: anything that takes xs:decimal can take xs:integer as well (so I'm not sure why xs:integer is singled out separately, unless it's for efficiency issues.
14:43:11 <ericP> (some style probs 'cause the proxy breaks stylesheet links)
14:43:19 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes
14:43:48 <AlbertoR> http://www.gargonza.org/
14:43:54 <patH> patH has joined #dawg
14:44:04 <DanC> Zakim, what item is this?
14:44:04 <Zakim> agendum 10. "news from SparqlingDays" has been taken up, DanC
14:44:06 <DaveB> also in progress, I wished for a sparql logo, and lo, one appeared...
14:44:22 <jeen> alberto: simple website where we want to collect some ideas about sparql, applications and demos, and how to connect, basically a way to showcase 'new web' 
14:44:25 <DaveB> the new web site is http://www.gargonza.org/
14:44:26 <AlbertoR> http://demo2.asemantics.com/rdfstore/sparql/
14:44:38 <Zakim> +NickG
14:44:43 <AlbertoR> http://www.gargonza.org/downloads/sparql.php
14:44:47 <SteveH> Zakim, NickG is SteveH
14:44:47 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:44:54 <SteveH> zakim, mute me
14:44:54 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
14:45:27 <AlbertoR> http://rd4food.asemantics.org
14:45:30 <DanC> (lo... http://dannyayers.com/sparql48.png )
14:45:52 <AlbertoR> http://www.gargonza.org/images/sparql48.png
14:46:19 <AlbertoR> Zavisa Bjelogrlic
14:46:31 <DaveB> logo creator is nick "binzac" on gargonza.org
14:46:56 <AlbertoR> everybody is welcome to join the experiment - just send email to gargonza@asemantics.org - soon there will be a public mailing list
14:47:23 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:47:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "issue: fromUnionQuery" taken up [from DanC]
14:48:02 <DanC> . ACTION AndyS: add syntax to specify datasets in the query language
14:48:31 <jeen> AndyS the query language does nothing about merging
14:49:04 <DanC> AndyS: the FROM/FROM NAMED stuff only has one URI for the background graph. no merging. I'd like feedback please
14:49:38 <DanC> ACTION KendallC: draft protocol section on specifying datasets (fromUnionQuery) including WSDL types and HTTP examples
14:50:12 <AlbertoR> agrees
14:50:20 <jeen> DaveB it's scary putting wsdl 2.0 semantics in the protocol doc
14:50:28 <DaveB> at the start
14:50:36 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
14:50:44 <AlbertoR> HTTP bindings should go first eventually
14:50:46 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Pat_Hayes (10%)
14:51:03 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
14:51:10 <DanC> nope, it's not you, pat
14:51:38 <DanC> ACTION EricP: try out the "2 list of URIs" datasets design from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0440.html
14:51:45 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes
14:52:31 <jeen> (why not list of uris for bg graph?)
14:52:57 <jeen> andys: the next step is people want/expect merging, etc. etc. 
14:53:22 <AndyS> I've implmented 2 lists (the foreground is a merge, the background is one name per graph)
14:53:44 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:53:44 <Zakim> agendum 3. "issue: wsdlAbstractProtocol" taken up [from DanC]
14:53:44 <AndyS> Could have FROM NAMED <u1> <u2> AS <u3> 
14:54:21 <ericP> If we do named graphs, I prefer what Andy just proposed.
14:54:37 <DanC> ACTION: KendallC to own wsdlAbstractProtocol (based on WSDL description added to protocol to editor's draft).
14:54:40 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:54:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, DanC
14:54:46 <DanC> Zakim, close item 3
14:54:46 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
14:54:47 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:54:48 <Zakim> 4. issue: xmlAbstractSyntax [from DanC]
14:54:50 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:54:50 <Zakim> agendum 4. "issue: xmlAbstractSyntax" taken up [from DanC]
14:55:03 <DanC> ACTION: KendallC to work out remaining details in sparqlx.{rnc,xsd,rng}: expression syntax, order-by stuff (xmlAbstractSyntax)
14:56:26 <DanC> DanC: what's the defined term corresponding to SPARQL query?
14:56:43 <jeen> andys: it's called Query
14:57:05 <jeen> dc: that's concrete, want defs
14:57:30 <jeen> andys: there isn't a term for that
14:59:21 <DaveB> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.rnc
14:59:23 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.rnc 1.6
15:00:08 <DaveB> the recursive term is query-pattern
15:01:04 <DanC> ACTION AndyS: define a term for abstract form of SPARQL query
15:01:05 <DaveB> although in the Query WD, I'd have expected it to be graph-pattern
15:01:13 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:01:13 <Zakim> agendum 5. "protocol publication candidate" taken up [from DanC]
15:01:14 <AndyS> In rq23 the recursive bit is "graph pattern"
15:01:42 <DanC> ACTION: KendallC to incorporate EricP's privacy text, salting to taste
15:01:56 <jeen> AndyS: will read it, can't commit to review
15:01:57 <DanC> DanC solicits reviewers for upcoming pub
15:02:04 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:02:04 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, DanC
15:02:10 <DanC> Zakim, close this item
15:02:10 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
15:02:12 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:02:12 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:02:14 <Zakim> 6. issue: valueTesting [from DanC]
15:02:15 <Zakim> agendum 6. "issue: valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]
15:02:26 <DanC> ACTION: DaveB to work with EricP to clarify valueTesting proposal
15:02:39 <DanC> . ACTION: HowardK to seek clarification on valueTesting w.r.t. differenced from XQuery
15:02:57 <jeen> HK made progress. not sure when to claim victory, wants feedback from andy and ericP
15:03:21 <DaveB> discussing hk's doc http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0124.html
15:05:23 <DanC> ack danc
15:05:23 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to encourage xref checking ala http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0106.html
15:06:13 <jeen> DanC - check links from our spec to xquery spec re types and comps
15:07:03 <jeen> DanC  how close to done?
15:08:19 <jeen> ericP some fuzzy issues left: 
15:10:34 <jeen> - whether plain rdf literals because they are the same term or because they have the same value
15:10:34 <DaveB> this seems to be the rdf term equality operator - http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-RDFterm-equal
15:13:33 <jeen> DanC when do you go to second bit in OR? 
15:13:47 <DaveB> I'd need a test for this potential OR, can't see ericP's problem.
15:13:50 <SteveH> in rdf-term-equal one could be unbound
15:14:25 <jeen> andyS: idea: table in document with example comparisons
15:15:19 <DaveB> DanC was asking "1.0"^^xsd:integer compared to "1"^^xsd:integer
15:15:25 <DaveB> different terms, would compare equal
15:15:34 <ericP>         bindings                same    type-specific
15:15:34 <ericP>     ?x          ?y              node    equivilence
15:15:34 <ericP>     <foo>       <foo>           1       error
15:15:34 <ericP>     _:a         _:a             1       error
15:15:34 <ericP>     "123"       "123"           1       error
15:15:36 <ericP>     "123"^^int  "123"^^int      1       1  =(int, int)
15:15:39 <ericP>     "123"^^int  "123"^^float    0       1  =(float, float)
15:15:41 <ericP>     "11:01"^^dt "11:01"^^dt     1       1  =(dateTime, dateTime)
15:16:58 <jeen> DanC asks Janne if this is a problem in his impl
15:17:27 <jeen> Janne - haven't considered it in detail yet 
15:17:59 <AndyS> Don't understand :: "123"       "123"       1       error
15:18:32 <SteveH> AndyS, "123" doesnt have a type, so its realsonable that a type specific test fails
15:18:46 <ericP> agae impl: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/perl/modules/W3C/Rdf/Atoms.pm?rev=1.88&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=HEAD
15:19:15 <ericP> look for 2nd instance of "sub numericOrDTCompare {
15:19:16 <ericP> "
15:19:33 <jeen> DanC cwm background graph is always normalized
15:19:51 <jeen> Dave is not coding this part of the design
15:19:56 <DaveB> yet
15:19:58 <SteveH> I've done some of it, but not all
15:20:02 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:20:02 <Zakim> agendum 7. "issue: sort" taken up [from DanC]
15:20:11 <ericP> all atoms in algae impl aer normalized
15:20:19 <DanC> . ACTION JeenB: Write a few sort test cases.
15:20:29 <AndyS> I think that we extend the type space: XSD types + plain literal.
15:20:48 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/sort/
15:21:36 <patH> it would make sense to treat plain literals as though they werre typed with xsd:string.
15:21:59 <DanC>     <rs:solution rdf:parseType="Resource">
15:22:00 <DanC> 			<rs:index rdf:datype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#integer">1</rs:index>
15:22:19 <patH> this equality is specified in the RDF semantics as normative.
15:22:23 <DaveB> the rdf/xml is invalid
15:22:56 <DanC> ORDER BY ASC[?mbox]
15:23:43 <AndyS> PatH: yes
15:24:24 <DaveB> rdf plain literal is an xsd:string literal + language tag.  need to consider both in equality
15:25:40 <patH> I was presuming no lang tag. Lang tagged literalks are different from tagged, must have both tag and literal string-equal.
15:26:38 <AndyS> We going to enforce non-case etsts
15:26:49 <AndyS> We going to enforce non-case tests : lang tag: "en" = "EN" ?
15:27:37 <patH> Hmm, never considered that. Suggest we consult external authorites :-)
15:28:57 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
15:28:57 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
15:29:17 <SteveH> zakim, mute me
15:29:17 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
15:29:45 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
15:29:45 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
15:30:02 <SteveH> zakim, mute me
15:30:02 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
15:31:27 <jeen> DanC close sort issue?
15:32:18 <DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#specifyingDataset v 1.307 addresses the sort issue 
15:33:22 <jeen> DaveB not happy with wording, many issues came up with LIMIT, OFFSET etc
15:33:27 <ericP> i have not addressed this
15:34:33 <DanC> (darn. wind noise)
15:34:36 <DaveB> too much noise
15:34:59 <DanC> wierd
15:35:06 <DaveB> if 10.1 said "Query patterns generate a sequence of solutions, and each solutoon...
15:35:09 <DaveB> that'sd be better
15:35:25 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
15:35:26 <DaveB> "passed through a stage to control" sounds like implementation 
15:35:58 <DaveB> and the bulleted list should be an order; controls are processed in the following order 1. DISTINCT ...
15:36:09 <Zakim> -DanC
15:36:18 <ericP> aha!
15:36:38 <Zakim> +DanC
15:36:38 <AndyS> I can't find Solution Sets in the doc.
15:36:47 <DaveB> ignore SOlution Sets, I said Soluton sequences
15:37:28 <ericP> i muted JanneS and it went away immediately
15:37:31 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes
15:37:53 <AndyS> "Solution Sets vs Solution Sequences" in 0038
15:38:03 <DaveB> well I did say I was confused
15:38:13 <DaveB> clearly solutions can't be sets; as you can distinct them 
15:38:14 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
15:38:14 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
15:38:34 <jeen> Steve: thought about it, not implemented it
15:38:45 <jeen> Steve: feature I really want but looks....
15:39:14 <jeen> DaveB: only feedback I got was 'please do DISTINCT and LIMIT'
15:39:43 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:39:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeen_Broekstra, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, HowardK, EricP, JanneS (muted), Kevin, AlbertoR, SteveH, Pat_Hayes
15:40:23 <AlbertoR> some ORDER_BY is important and needed today - 
15:41:31 <DanC> poll: who thinks postponing sort is a bad idea? 3ish
15:41:50 <DaveB> I'm neutral
15:42:20 <SteveH> I'm also nuetral
15:43:00 <jeen> AR: i think it's very important to have some kind of ordering
15:43:50 <jeen> AR: would rather spend more time implementing what the spec says than not having any kind of sort
15:44:11 <DanC> ACTION JeenB: Write a few sort test cases.
15:44:15 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:44:15 <Zakim> agendum 8. "SPARQL QL publication candidate" taken up [from DanC]
15:44:41 <jeen> DanC this afternoon likely
15:44:52 <DanC> ACTION: PatH to internal review of rq23
15:45:16 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:45:16 <Zakim> agendum 9. "test suite maintenance (time permitting)" taken up [from DanC]
15:45:36 <jeen> andys - still have comments from bijan that i haven't processed yet
15:45:55 <DanC> . ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page
15:46:08 <DanC> ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page
15:46:31 <DanC> . ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs
15:46:34 <DanC> DONE.
15:46:40 <DanC> ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve
15:46:57 <DanC> ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency)
15:47:25 <Zakim> -JanneS
15:47:25 <DanC> . ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery)
15:47:30 <DanC> ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery)
15:47:37 <DanC> ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple
15:47:50 <DanC> . ACTION: AndyS to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe
15:49:10 <DanC> ACTION: EricP to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe
15:49:49 <DanC> ADJOURN.
15:49:49 <Zakim> -DaveB
15:49:53 <Zakim> -AlbertoR
15:49:54 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
15:50:02 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:50:07 <howardk> eric: wanna chat about getting together ??
15:50:08 <Zakim> -Kevin
15:50:10 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:50:10 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2005/04/19-dawg-irc#T15-50-10
15:50:22 <ericP> howard, sure
15:50:44 <Zakim> -DanC
15:50:46 <Zakim> -Jeen_Broekstra
15:51:23 <jeen> jeen has left #dawg
15:51:38 <DanC> regrets + Thompson, Bryan B
15:52:37 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:53:05 <AndyS> AndyS has left #dawg
15:58:51 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:07:16 <ericP> netstorm -- will ask you to repeat a lot
16:08:46 <ericP> fallback to irc
16:09:05 <howardk> ok
16:09:15 <howardk> i hear you fine
16:09:44 <howardk> 2 hours ??
16:09:49 <howardk> by phone?
16:09:55 <howardk> sounds good 
16:10:09 <ericP> still broken
16:10:09 <howardk> broken ... too bad
16:10:19 <howardk> sounds good eric.
16:10:43 <howardk> yes
16:10:43 <howardk> ok, 1 hour ...
16:10:43 <howardk> good ...
16:10:43 <howardk> ta
16:10:43 <howardk> ok
16:10:43 <howardk> bye
16:10:43 <Zakim> -EricP
16:10:52 <Zakim> -HowardK
16:10:53 <ericP> ouch! my ear bud hurts
16:10:54 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:10:55 <Zakim> Attendees were Jeen_Broekstra, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, HowardK, EricP, Kevin, AlbertoR, JanneS, Pat_Hayes, SteveH
16:11:16 <DanC> RRSAgent, stop