IRC log of swbp on 2005-04-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:53:26 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swbp

13:53:26 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc

13:53:37 [Ralph]

Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF

13:53:45 [Ralph]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0018.html

13:53:49 [Ralph]

Chair: Ben Adida

13:54:04 [Ralph]

Regrets: Jeremy

13:54:20 [Steven]

I'll join asap, and will monitor this channel

13:54:35 [benadida]

right, we'll discuss a couple of GRDDL things before moving to XHTML, though without Jeremy, our meeting will likely be a bit short

13:54:36 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes previous meeting 2005-04-05

13:56:20 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #swbp

13:56:25 [Ralph]

zakim, this will be rdfxhtml

13:56:25 [Zakim]

ok, Ralph; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:00:31 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started

14:00:39 [Zakim]

+??P0

14:00:46 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

14:00:48 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

14:00:58 [Steven]

zakim, code?

14:00:58 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7927 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), Steven

14:01:05 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:02:07 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:03:20 [Ralph]

Scribe: Ralph

14:03:50 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:03:50 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:03:52 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:04:31 [Ralph]

Topic: Action Review

14:04:53 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes#ActionSummary Last Meeting's action summary

14:04:59 [Ralph]

ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements

14:04:59 [Ralph]

[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action06]

14:05:22 [Ralph]

Ben: I spoke with DanBri and he said he hoped to do this action before the end of the month

14:05:29 [Ralph]

ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities

14:05:39 [Ralph]

Ben: more email sent to Gavin

14:05:59 [benadida]

Ralph: Tom reported at last week's WG telecon that he had sent feedback

14:06:08 [benadida]

Ralph: couldn't find it in email

14:06:11 [benadida]

Ben: neither could I

14:06:23 [Ralph]

... Tom though he'd sent feedback but we're not able to find it

14:06:38 [Ralph]

... Tom will regenerate it if necessary

14:06:58 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list.

14:07:03 [Ralph]

-- done

14:07:21 [Ralph]

ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2

14:07:40 [Ralph]

Ben: there is not yet a public URI for the XHTML2 draft, correct?

14:07:51 [Ralph]

Steven: correct, the current document is Member-only

14:08:06 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050411/

14:08:55 [Ralph]

Ralph: it's only a problem if the HTML WG doesn't want those restricted links named in our public forum

14:09:06 [Ralph]

Steven: posting those URIs is not a problem for the HTML WG

14:09:34 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2

14:09:36 [Ralph]

-- done

14:09:46 [Ralph]

ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem

14:09:49 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:10:38 [benadida]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2005Apr/0032

14:11:12 [benadida]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0004.html

14:11:54 [Ralph]

-- done

14:11:59 [Ralph]

action done, as question was asked

14:12:13 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback

14:12:39 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases)

14:12:47 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:12:55 [Ralph]

Ben: I have a work-in-progress

14:12:57 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-04-11-use-cases.html#cc

14:13:06 [benadida]

correct: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-04-11-use-cases.html

14:13:44 [Ralph]

Ben: I hope to add English descriptions of the goal of the community for each case

14:14:04 [Ralph]

... I will provide RDF/XML examples

14:14:21 [Ralph]

... hoping that Steven and Mark will provide the XHTML2 serialization

14:14:23 [Ralph]

Mark: yep

14:15:11 [Ralph]

Ralph has changed the topic to: RDF-in-XHTML 12 April agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0018.html

14:15:17 [Ralph]

Topic: XHTML2 - RDF/A

14:15:59 [Ralph]

Mark: Steven and I have a number of sample documents we have been using

14:16:15 [Ralph]

... we'd like someone else's documents to check as well

14:16:17 [Steven]

(e.g. RSS in XHTML)

14:16:49 [Ralph]

Ben: it would be nice to have some tests that combine RSS, FOAF, and Dublin Core

14:17:28 [Ralph]

Steven: Last Call WD now hinges on getting the schema up-to-date

14:17:39 [Ralph]

... specifically, we discovered our schema for XForms was out of date

14:17:59 [Ralph]

Ben: will the RDF Schema hold you up?

14:18:07 [Ralph]

Steven: no, that can be done as a Note

14:19:01 [Ralph]

Mark: I started to reply to some of last week's bnode comments

14:19:12 [MarkB_]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168

14:19:29 [Steven]

(Note that the rdf draft is now in W3C space)

14:19:40 [Steven]

s/rdf/rdf\/a/

14:19:45 [Ralph]

Mark: see Creative Commons example in rdf-a.html

14:20:43 [Ralph]

Mark: why would this example (section 6.1) mean anything but an anonymous node?

14:20:54 [Ralph]

... the only thing you can't do is refer to this node from outside the document

14:21:24 [Ralph]

... from the HTML side, you'd argue that id is creating anonymous nodes

14:21:42 [Ralph]

... from the RDF side, what we want is a way to express anonymity

14:21:47 [Ralph]

... we already have about

14:21:54 [Ralph]

... and html:id

14:22:01 [Ralph]

... so why do we need another mechanism?

14:22:33 [Ralph]

... if you are really creating an external identifier use about, otherwise use id

14:23:14 [Ralph]

... this makes most things be 'anonymous' nodes unless you use about

14:23:21 [benadida]

q+ to ask about inheritance

14:23:33 [Ralph]

... I've tried this for a few examples and it seems to work

14:23:57 [benadida]

zakim, ack me

14:23:57 [Zakim]

benadida, you wanted to ask about inheritance

14:23:58 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

14:24:25 [Ralph]

Ben: is there no longer subject inheritance; does about no longer inherit from parent?

14:24:41 [Ralph]

Mark: Steven and I have gone back and forth about this, not yet reflected in drafts

14:24:59 [Ralph]

... we've concluded that anything that has only a property and object should always be about the document itself

14:25:20 [Ralph]

... so you no longer get nodes being bnodes by default as in the previous draft

14:25:24 [Ralph]

... see example in 5.2

14:26:05 [Ralph]

... the link inside the blockquote would now have the document as subject, not the blockquote

14:26:24 [Ralph]

... Jeremy had commented that the inheritance rules were complicated

14:26:34 [Ralph]

Steven: another advantage is that this is more natural for the HTML community

14:27:45 [Ralph]

Ralph: I suspect this is a much cleaner design

14:28:09 [Ralph]

... it likely solves Jeremy's observation that the October draft appeared to create many more triples than the prose implied

14:28:46 [Ralph]

Ben: I think most document authors will not be explicitly interested in anonymous nodes, so this design feels better

14:29:05 [Ralph]

Steven: this design is reflected in the current XHTML2 editor's draft

14:29:20 [Ralph]

... the rdf-a document is not in sync

14:30:38 [Ralph]

Mark: if you wanted to talk about the person 'Ben' in example 6.1, you could add <p about='http://ben.adida.net'>

14:31:01 [Steven]

Oh, I see; OK I agree

14:31:24 [Ralph]

Mark: anonymous nodes don't have any significance to HTML authors

14:31:39 [Ralph]

Steven: I posted an example to the HTML WG that I thought explained this

14:31:52 [Ralph]

... e.g. referring to a table of contents document that does not yet exist

14:33:47 [Ralph]

Ralph: I can't imagine a case where it would be bad for nodes to have identifiers

14:33:59 [Ralph]

Mark: I'm not suggesting that all nodes should have identifiers

14:34:10 [Ralph]

Steven: this might undermine a URL mechanism

14:35:00 [Ralph]

Mark: the difference is that in HTML the fragment identifier refers to a part of a document but in RDF the interpretation would be a node

14:35:49 [Steven]

s/a URL/the URL/

14:36:10 [benadida]

ACTION: Mark to email TF about this bnode proposal

14:36:41 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:36:42 [Ralph]

[I wonder if "this bnode proposal" will be understandable next week]

14:38:29 [Ralph]

[writing context-free action items takes time but is worth the effort]

14:38:46 [MarkB_]

action 9 = MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1) any node with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a fragment refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID).

14:39:36 [benadida]

Ralph: What's the schedule for this new XHTML document in W3 space?

14:39:49 [benadida]

Mark: it requires some rewriting

14:40:24 [Ralph]

Ralph: is http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html a copy of the October RDF-A document?

14:40:26 [Ralph]

Mark: yes

14:44:52 [Ralph]

Ralph: can the RDF-A module be made part of XHTML2 in such a way that it can be normatively referenced within XHTML2 spec and still reusable by other non-HTML vocabularies?

14:44:57 [Ralph]

Mark: good idea; I will think about it

14:46:32 [benadida]

Ralph: Another possible path is to combine RDF/A and metainformation module prose

14:46:46 [benadida]

... an HTML author needs this to make sense to them

14:47:09 [benadida]

... pieces of RDF/A formalism interspersed can be included

14:47:31 [benadida]

Mark: earlier drafts did just that (beginner's guide to triples)

14:48:06 [benadida]

Mark: HTML authors have been using LINK and META for years. This new approach is easy to understand.

14:48:24 [benadida]

Ralph: we're so close

14:49:07 [benadida]

... some formalisms are important and we can educate people

14:49:45 [Ralph]

Topic: GRDDL

14:50:16 [Ralph]

Ben: we'll continue to look for feedback from TomB and Gavin

14:50:37 [Ralph]

... Creative Commons really wants people to use the RDF/A mechanism in HTML4 and XHTML1

14:51:01 [Ralph]

... but we don't want this to delay the XHTML2 work at all

14:52:00 [Ralph]

Mark: the only missing feature for the Creative Commons example is qnames

14:52:33 [Ralph]

... the about attribute is new and 'name' became 'property' within meta but the CC examples don't use these

14:53:06 [Ralph]

Ben: if XHTML1 with the RDF/A Creative Commons example can be validated, that's what we'd like

14:54:06 [Ralph]

... Creative Commons would like an HTML4 solution that looks a lot like the XHTML2 solution

14:54:52 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:54:52 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:54:54 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:56:22 [benadida]

Ralph: the whole of GRDDL is not necessary for a number of use caess

14:56:27 [benadida]

s/caess/cases

14:56:40 [benadida]

... if we can't find anyone who needs the whole thing

14:56:43 [Ralph]

s/is not/may not/

14:58:07 [Ralph]

Ralph: if we cannot find a community who wants the full generalization of GRDDL perhaps the specific subset of the RDF-A/XHTML2 solution that can be made to work in HTML4 is an approach more acceptable to implementors?

15:00:29 [Ralph]

Ben: even if GRDDL is determined not to be essential to RDF-in-XHTML, I believe it could be useful to other Semantic Web applications and the SWBPD WG may still wish to consider it

15:01:12 [Ralph]

next meeting 19 April

15:01:24 [Ralph]

Ben: at risk for 19 April

15:01:59 [Ralph]

Steven: regrets for 19 April

15:02:24 [Ralph]

next meeting 26 April

15:03:00 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

15:03:01 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:03:01 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:03:06 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:03:08 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended

15:03:09 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, Steven

15:03:22 [Ralph]

zakim, you missed Mark again!

15:03:22 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'you missed Mark again!', Ralph

15:03:32 [Steven]

:-)

15:03:33 [benadida]

:)

15:03:37 [Ralph]

Present+ Mark Birbeck

15:06:01 [Ralph]

zakim, bye

15:06:01 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #swbp

15:06:09 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:06:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html Ralph

15:06:21 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make record public

15:06:21 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make record public', Ralph. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:06:25 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make log public

15:07:10 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

I see 9 open action items:

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements [1]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-04-59

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities [2]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-05-29

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. [3]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-06-58

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2 [4]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-07-21

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2 [5]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-09-34

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem [6]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-09-46

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback [7]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-12-13

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases) [8]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-12-39

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1) any node with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a fragment refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID). [9]

15:07:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-36-10