13:53:26 RRSAgent has joined #swbp 13:53:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc 13:53:37 Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF 13:53:45 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0018.html 13:53:49 Chair: Ben Adida 13:54:04 Regrets: Jeremy 13:54:20 I'll join asap, and will monitor this channel 13:54:35 right, we'll discuss a couple of GRDDL things before moving to XHTML, though without Jeremy, our meeting will likely be a bit short 13:54:36 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes previous meeting 2005-04-05 13:56:20 Zakim has joined #swbp 13:56:25 zakim, this will be rdfxhtml 13:56:25 ok, Ralph; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 14:00:31 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started 14:00:39 +??P0 14:00:46 zakim, i am ? 14:00:48 +MarkB_; got it 14:00:58 zakim, code? 14:00:58 the conference code is 7927 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), Steven 14:01:05 +Ben_Adida 14:02:07 +Ralph 14:03:20 Scribe: Ralph 14:03:50 zakim, dial steven-617 14:03:50 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:03:52 +Steven 14:04:31 Topic: Action Review 14:04:53 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes#ActionSummary Last Meeting's action summary 14:04:59 ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements 14:04:59 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html#action06] 14:05:22 Ben: I spoke with DanBri and he said he hoped to do this action before the end of the month 14:05:29 ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities 14:05:39 Ben: more email sent to Gavin 14:05:59 Ralph: Tom reported at last week's WG telecon that he had sent feedback 14:06:08 Ralph: couldn't find it in email 14:06:11 Ben: neither could I 14:06:23 ... Tom though he'd sent feedback but we're not able to find it 14:06:38 ... Tom will regenerate it if necessary 14:06:58 ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. 14:07:03 -- done 14:07:21 ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2 14:07:40 Ben: there is not yet a public URI for the XHTML2 draft, correct? 14:07:51 Steven: correct, the current document is Member-only 14:08:06 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050411/ 14:08:55 Ralph: it's only a problem if the HTML WG doesn't want those restricted links named in our public forum 14:09:06 Steven: posting those URIs is not a problem for the HTML WG 14:09:34 ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2 14:09:36 -- done 14:09:46 ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem 14:09:49 -- continues 14:10:38 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2005Apr/0032 14:11:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0004.html 14:11:54 -- done 14:11:59 action done, as question was asked 14:12:13 ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback 14:12:39 ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases) 14:12:47 -- continues 14:12:55 Ben: I have a work-in-progress 14:12:57 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-04-11-use-cases.html#cc 14:13:06 correct: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-04-11-use-cases.html 14:13:44 Ben: I hope to add English descriptions of the goal of the community for each case 14:14:04 ... I will provide RDF/XML examples 14:14:21 ... hoping that Steven and Mark will provide the XHTML2 serialization 14:14:23 Mark: yep 14:15:11 Ralph has changed the topic to: RDF-in-XHTML 12 April agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0018.html 14:15:17 Topic: XHTML2 - RDF/A 14:15:59 Mark: Steven and I have a number of sample documents we have been using 14:16:15 ... we'd like someone else's documents to check as well 14:16:17 (e.g. RSS in XHTML) 14:16:49 Ben: it would be nice to have some tests that combine RSS, FOAF, and Dublin Core 14:17:28 Steven: Last Call WD now hinges on getting the schema up-to-date 14:17:39 ... specifically, we discovered our schema for XForms was out of date 14:17:59 Ben: will the RDF Schema hold you up? 14:18:07 Steven: no, that can be done as a Note 14:19:01 Mark: I started to reply to some of last week's bnode comments 14:19:12 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168 14:19:29 (Note that the rdf draft is now in W3C space) 14:19:40 s/rdf/rdf\/a/ 14:19:45 Mark: see Creative Commons example in rdf-a.html 14:20:43 Mark: why would this example (section 6.1) mean anything but an anonymous node? 14:20:54 ... the only thing you can't do is refer to this node from outside the document 14:21:24 ... from the HTML side, you'd argue that id is creating anonymous nodes 14:21:42 ... from the RDF side, what we want is a way to express anonymity 14:21:47 ... we already have about 14:21:54 ... and html:id 14:22:01 ... so why do we need another mechanism? 14:22:33 ... if you are really creating an external identifier use about, otherwise use id 14:23:14 ... this makes most things be 'anonymous' nodes unless you use about 14:23:21 q+ to ask about inheritance 14:23:33 ... I've tried this for a few examples and it seems to work 14:23:57 zakim, ack me 14:23:57 benadida, you wanted to ask about inheritance 14:23:58 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:24:25 Ben: is there no longer subject inheritance; does about no longer inherit from parent? 14:24:41 Mark: Steven and I have gone back and forth about this, not yet reflected in drafts 14:24:59 ... we've concluded that anything that has only a property and object should always be about the document itself 14:25:20 ... so you no longer get nodes being bnodes by default as in the previous draft 14:25:24 ... see example in 5.2 14:26:05 ... the link inside the blockquote would now have the document as subject, not the blockquote 14:26:24 ... Jeremy had commented that the inheritance rules were complicated 14:26:34 Steven: another advantage is that this is more natural for the HTML community 14:27:45 Ralph: I suspect this is a much cleaner design 14:28:09 ... it likely solves Jeremy's observation that the October draft appeared to create many more triples than the prose implied 14:28:46 Ben: I think most document authors will not be explicitly interested in anonymous nodes, so this design feels better 14:29:05 Steven: this design is reflected in the current XHTML2 editor's draft 14:29:20 ... the rdf-a document is not in sync 14:30:38 Mark: if you wanted to talk about the person 'Ben' in example 6.1, you could add

14:31:01 Oh, I see; OK I agree 14:31:24 Mark: anonymous nodes don't have any significance to HTML authors 14:31:39 Steven: I posted an example to the HTML WG that I thought explained this 14:31:52 ... e.g. referring to a table of contents document that does not yet exist 14:33:47 Ralph: I can't imagine a case where it would be bad for nodes to have identifiers 14:33:59 Mark: I'm not suggesting that all nodes should have identifiers 14:34:10 Steven: this might undermine a URL mechanism 14:35:00 Mark: the difference is that in HTML the fragment identifier refers to a part of a document but in RDF the interpretation would be a node 14:35:49 s/a URL/the URL/ 14:36:10 ACTION: Mark to email TF about this bnode proposal 14:36:41 -Steven 14:36:42 [I wonder if "this bnode proposal" will be understandable next week] 14:38:29 [writing context-free action items takes time but is worth the effort] 14:38:46 action 9 = MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1) any node with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a fragment refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID). 14:39:36 Ralph: What's the schedule for this new XHTML document in W3 space? 14:39:49 Mark: it requires some rewriting 14:40:24 Ralph: is http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html a copy of the October RDF-A document? 14:40:26 Mark: yes 14:44:52 Ralph: can the RDF-A module be made part of XHTML2 in such a way that it can be normatively referenced within XHTML2 spec and still reusable by other non-HTML vocabularies? 14:44:57 Mark: good idea; I will think about it 14:46:32 Ralph: Another possible path is to combine RDF/A and metainformation module prose 14:46:46 ... an HTML author needs this to make sense to them 14:47:09 ... pieces of RDF/A formalism interspersed can be included 14:47:31 Mark: earlier drafts did just that (beginner's guide to triples) 14:48:06 Mark: HTML authors have been using LINK and META for years. This new approach is easy to understand. 14:48:24 Ralph: we're so close 14:49:07 ... some formalisms are important and we can educate people 14:49:45 Topic: GRDDL 14:50:16 Ben: we'll continue to look for feedback from TomB and Gavin 14:50:37 ... Creative Commons really wants people to use the RDF/A mechanism in HTML4 and XHTML1 14:51:01 ... but we don't want this to delay the XHTML2 work at all 14:52:00 Mark: the only missing feature for the Creative Commons example is qnames 14:52:33 ... the about attribute is new and 'name' became 'property' within meta but the CC examples don't use these 14:53:06 Ben: if XHTML1 with the RDF/A Creative Commons example can be validated, that's what we'd like 14:54:06 ... Creative Commons would like an HTML4 solution that looks a lot like the XHTML2 solution 14:54:52 zakim, dial steven-617 14:54:52 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:54:54 +Steven 14:56:22 Ralph: the whole of GRDDL is not necessary for a number of use caess 14:56:27 s/caess/cases 14:56:40 ... if we can't find anyone who needs the whole thing 14:56:43 s/is not/may not/ 14:58:07 Ralph: if we cannot find a community who wants the full generalization of GRDDL perhaps the specific subset of the RDF-A/XHTML2 solution that can be made to work in HTML4 is an approach more acceptable to implementors? 15:00:29 Ben: even if GRDDL is determined not to be essential to RDF-in-XHTML, I believe it could be useful to other Semantic Web applications and the SWBPD WG may still wish to consider it 15:01:12 next meeting 19 April 15:01:24 Ben: at risk for 19 April 15:01:59 Steven: regrets for 19 April 15:02:24 next meeting 26 April 15:03:00 -MarkB_ 15:03:01 -Ralph 15:03:01 -Steven 15:03:06 -Ben_Adida 15:03:08 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended 15:03:09 Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, Steven 15:03:22 zakim, you missed Mark again! 15:03:22 I don't understand 'you missed Mark again!', Ralph 15:03:32 :-) 15:03:33 :) 15:03:37 Present+ Mark Birbeck 15:06:01 zakim, bye 15:06:01 Zakim has left #swbp 15:06:09 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:06:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html Ralph 15:06:21 rrsagent, please make record public 15:06:21 I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make record public', Ralph. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:06:25 rrsagent, please make log public 15:07:10 rrsagent, bye 15:07:10 I see 9 open action items: 15:07:10 ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements [1] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-04-59 15:07:10 ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities [2] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-05-29 15:07:10 ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. [3] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-06-58 15:07:10 ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2 [4] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-07-21 15:07:10 ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2 [5] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-09-34 15:07:10 ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem [6] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-09-46 15:07:10 ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback [7] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-12-13 15:07:10 ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases) [8] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-12-39 15:07:10 ACTION: MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1) any node with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a fragment refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID). [9] 15:07:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc#T14-36-10