13:56:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
13:56:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc
13:56:51 <Ralph> Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
13:56:55 <Ralph> Chair: Ben Adida
13:56:58 <Steven> zakim, code?
13:56:58 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I don't know what conference this is
13:57:03 <Steven> zakim, this will be rdf
13:57:03 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:21 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0000.html
13:58:36 <Ralph> Ralph has changed the topic to: RDF-in-XHTML TF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0000.html
13:59:20 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #swbp
14:00:57 <benadida> hmmm, having trouble getting into the telecon phone line... is it not 10am by Zakim yet?
14:01:00 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
14:01:03 <benadida> ahah
14:01:07 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:01:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:53 <benadida> Zakim, IPcaller is me
14:01:53 <Zakim> +benadida; got it
14:02:36 <Zakim> +??P11
14:02:41 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
14:02:41 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
14:02:46 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-work
14:02:46 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:02:46 <Zakim> +Steven
14:03:00 <Zakim> +??P15
14:03:17 <Ralph> zakim, ??p15 is Jeremy
14:03:17 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
14:04:45 <Zakim> -benadida
14:06:05 <jjc> jjc has joined #swbp
14:06:10 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:06:24 <jjc> Zakim, who's on the call?
14:06:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, MarkB_, Steven, Jeremy, Ben_Adida
14:07:54 <Ralph> Topic: Status of XHTML Last Call
14:07:59 <Steven> http://hades.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/mod-metaAttributes.html#s_metaAttributesmodule
14:08:21 <Ralph> Steven: the latest editor's draft (above) is built nightly, not yet uploaded to W3C site
14:08:29 <Ralph> ... please take a look and give us feedback
14:08:44 <Ralph> ... the area we're having problems with still is blank nodes
14:09:01 <Ralph> ... we want to create anonymous nodes and give them names independent of URLs
14:09:18 <Ralph> ... for this one little edge case it seems a new naming and referencing mechanism needs to be created
14:09:30 <Ralph> ... e.g. aboutblank and hrefblank
14:09:49 <Ralph> ... and we need a way to give a (blank) name to an element
14:10:02 <Jeremy> Zakim, mute me
14:10:02 <Zakim> Jeremy should now be muted
14:10:03 <Ralph> ... in RDF/A there was a proposed XPointer framework for referring to blank nodes and a naming mechanism
14:10:27 <Ralph> ... the problem with this XPointer framework solution was that we'd have to create a spec for it, as it's not defined anywhere
14:10:41 <Jeremy> q+ to comment on RDF/A solution: XPointer no, one nodeID attribute sufficient
14:10:51 <Ralph> Mark: we could simply define that framework as in the RDF/A draft -- don't have to go all the way back to XPointer
14:10:58 <Ralph> ... it makes use of the XPointer architecture
14:11:25 <Ralph> ... we could define this in our spec, don't need to go back to XPointer WG
14:11:31 <Jeremy> ack me
14:11:32 <Zakim> Jeremy, you wanted to comment on RDF/A solution: XPointer no, one nodeID attribute sufficient
14:11:50 <Ralph> Jeremy: I didn't like the XPointer solution
14:12:27 <Ralph> ... I found it "ugly"
14:13:01 <Ralph> ... one attribute is sufficient; no need for extra hrefblank
14:13:10 <MarkB_> q+ We do actually need two attributes.
14:13:17 <Ralph> ... what's hard is providing text for an HTML author who is not RDF-aware to motivate this node id attribute
14:13:35 <Ralph> Steven: you're suggesting a node id attribute that simultaneously defines and references?
14:13:36 <MarkB_> q+ to comment on attributes: We do need two
14:13:38 <Ralph> Jeremy: yes
14:14:16 <Ralph> ... in the [October] RDF/A proposal, if there was not a subject in the triple then it was inherited from the context
14:14:58 <Ralph> ... if node id expresses the subject it's possible to default the object and vice-versa
14:15:29 <Ralph> ... while clunky, this achieves the goal of being able to express all of RDF without making things too complicated for an HTML author
14:15:58 <Ralph> ... affected by the complexity of the mapping rules from the XHTML attributes to RDF
14:16:12 <Ralph> ... I felt the [October] RDF/A mapping rules were a bit too complex
14:16:27 <Zakim> MarkB_, you wanted to comment on attributes: We do need two
14:16:52 <Ralph> Mark: I came up with the XPointer solution because I'm pretty sure we do need two attributes
14:17:03 <Ralph> ... RDF/XML does not need two attributes due to its striping syntax
14:17:25 <Ralph> ... in the XHTML mechanism we've tried to make it possible to write a complete triple in a single element
14:18:34 <Ralph> ... Jeremy's suggested defaulting mechanism may work but I'm pretty sure there are cases where you still need two attributes
14:19:43 <Ralph> Mark: aesthetically, bnodes having URIs that are not supposed to be considered as URIs is unaesthetic too
14:20:00 <benadida> q+ to ask about bnode in doc
14:20:21 <Ralph> Ben: is the bnode section in this editor's draft yet?
14:21:21 <Ralph> Steven: no.  the document I cited has RDF/A transformed into XHTML2 style except for the bnode material
14:22:11 <Ralph> ... we've been struggling with finding some mechanism for bnodes that is more aesthetic and that is explicable to HTML authors without referring to the term "bnode"
14:22:17 <Ralph> Jeremy: I agree with that objective
14:23:07 <Ralph> Mark: why would an author use anything other than id="A" and id="B" to refer to anonymous nodes?
14:24:16 <Ralph> ... why should I be worried about any outside use of those names?
14:24:37 <Ralph> ... e.g. I use those names locally, but why should I prevent them from use outside?
14:25:06 <benadida> zakim, ack me
14:25:06 <Zakim> benadida, you wanted to ask about bnode in doc
14:25:07 <Ralph> ... I think this is a concern more to RDF folk than an HTML author
14:25:08 <Zakim> I see Ralph on the speaker queue
14:25:48 <Ralph> Ben: let's move this discussion to e-mail
14:26:12 <Ralph> Jeremy: at the March face-to-face, Steven suggested that XHTML2 would go to Last Call without addressing this particular issue
14:26:26 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list.
14:26:52 <Ralph> Steven: we don't expect any given XHTML spec to have addressed all open issues; we simply have to freeze a document and count remaining open issues as Last Call issues
14:27:14 <Ralph> ... if we didn't do this we'd never get a document out the door; people are always reading new drafts and bringing new issues
14:28:53 <Ralph> Ralph: are the words in the editors' draft now fairly stable?  would a careful review be a waste of time?
14:28:57 <Ralph> Steven: not a waste of time
14:29:17 <Ralph> ... people are fixing schema errors now
14:29:27 <Ralph> ... but up to publication there are always the chance of changes
14:29:36 <benadida> ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2
14:30:34 <Ralph> Steven: the editors' draft cited above has dealt with all the issues from the HTML WG F2F
14:30:45 <Ralph> Topic: Status of Action Items from SWBPD F2F
14:31:12 <Ralph> ACTION BenA: Examples in RDF/XHTML and RDF/XML - use cases
14:31:17 <Ralph> -- continues
14:31:39 <Ralph> Ben: any specific examples you'd like to see, or just use cases?
14:31:43 <Ralph> Steven: use cases good
14:31:59 <Ralph> Mark: OK to give RDF/XML examples and we'll translate them
14:32:24 <Ralph> ... most of the larger examples I've done have been based on RSS and FOAF.  These might not express everything
14:32:56 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to continue past action and provide RDF/XML + english description to Steven and Mark (use cases)
14:33:03 <Jeremy>  Zakim, mute me
14:33:03 <Zakim> Jeremy should now be muted
14:33:48 <Ralph> action 3=BenA: Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases)
14:33:52 <Ralph> action- 4
14:34:23 <Ralph> ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities
14:34:25 <Ralph> -- continues
14:34:41 <Ralph> ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements
14:34:42 <Ralph> -- continues
14:34:47 <Ralph> Topic: Next Meeting
14:34:50 <Jeremy> Zakim, unmute me
14:34:50 <Zakim> Jeremy should no longer be muted
14:35:12 <Ralph> BenA: let's plan to meet weekly, even if it's a short meeting
14:35:26 <Zakim> -MarkB_
14:35:26 <Ralph> next meeting: 12 April
14:35:27 <Jeremy>  Zakim, mute me
14:35:27 <Zakim> Jeremy should now be muted
14:35:32 <Ralph> Topic: GRDDL
14:35:55 <Jeremy> Zakim, unmute me
14:35:55 <Zakim> Jeremy should no longer be muted
14:36:07 <Ralph> BenA: discuss f2f feeback; do we need to address a pre-XHTML2 solution?
14:36:20 <Ralph> Jeremy: I'll take an action to get HP feedback
14:36:24 <benadida> ACTION: Jeremy to ask about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem
14:37:29 <Ralph> BenA: Dan and Dom did a new editor's draft for GRDDL
14:37:40 <Ralph> Ralph: I read the new draft but didn't look at the diffs
14:38:03 <Ralph> Ben: what I gleaned from the email is that typos were fixed
14:38:05 <Jeremy> q+ to summarize changelog
14:38:20 <Ralph> ... and specifying what happens if more than one transform is given within a document
14:38:51 <Ralph> Ralph: Dave Beckett announced an implementation
14:39:03 <Ralph> ... Dave asked if multiple tranformations yield a single graph
14:39:10 <Ralph> ... Dom answered in the affirmative
14:40:29 <Jeremy> q+ to discuss possible questions to users
14:41:22 <Ralph> Ben: what communities do we need to approach?
14:41:35 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2
14:41:53 <Ralph> Ralph: Creative Commons and Dublin Core are still in the top of our list.
14:42:07 <Ralph> ... we could grow the list but at least we need those two responses
14:42:12 <Zakim> Jeremy, you wanted to summarize changelog and to discuss possible questions to users
14:42:35 <Ralph> Jeremy: I see only editorial changed in the GRDDL changelog
14:43:01 <Ralph> ... should I be asking HP "Is GRDDL useful" or "Do we need a solution to embedding RDF before XHTML2"?
14:43:24 <Ralph> BenA: I think the latter; do we need a solution before XHTML2 and if so, is GRDDL a good way to do this?
14:43:38 <Ralph> Jeremy: the vast majority of HTML on the web is ill-formed, not XML
14:43:54 <Ralph> ... if we're seeking user feedback, it's up to them to define the scope
14:44:22 <Ralph> Ben: I think it's good to cast a wide net to find out user expectations
14:44:40 <Ralph> ... this task force may not last long enough to provide every solution, but please ask
14:48:03 <Ralph> Ralph: Dave Beckett's GRDDL implementation partly answers some questions that Ivan Herman raised in a hallway conversation at the March F2F
14:48:28 <Ralph> ... note that the GRDDL spec says transformations SHOULD be XSLT, not MUST
14:49:00 <Ralph> ... so implementations have to be careful
14:49:21 <Ralph> adjourned
14:49:22 <Zakim> -Steven
14:49:24 <Zakim> -Jeremy
14:49:28 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:49:30 <Zakim> -Ralph
14:49:32 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
14:49:33 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, [IPcaller], benadida, Steven, Jeremy, Ben_Adida
14:53:47 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:53:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes.html Ralph
14:53:58 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
14:54:04 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
14:54:04 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items:
14:54:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. [1]
14:54:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-26-26
14:54:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in XHTML 2 [2]
14:54:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-29-36
14:54:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: BenA: Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to Steven and Mark (use cases) [3]
14:54:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-31-12
14:54:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML in their respective communities [5]
14:54:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-34-23
14:54:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements [6]
14:54:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-34-41
14:54:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeremy to ask about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to RDF-in-HTML problem [7]
14:54:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-36-24
14:54:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and pre-XHTML2 [8]
14:54:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-irc#T14-41-35