17:51:31 RRSAgent has joined #swbp 17:51:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc 17:51:39 Meeting: SWBPD WG 17:52:14 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Mar/0162.html 17:52:31 DavidW has joined #swbp 17:52:39 Chair: Guus 17:52:45 Zakim has joined #swbp 17:52:49 zakim, this will be swbpd 17:52:49 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, Ralph 17:52:52 zakim, this will be swbp 17:52:52 ok, Ralph; I see SW_BPD()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 17:53:48 rrsagent, please make logs public 17:54:22 Ralph has changed the topic to: SWBPD 24 March agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Mar/0162.html 17:57:17 PhilT has joined #swbp 17:58:01 aliman has joined #swbp 17:58:05 JeffP has joined #swbp 17:58:25 SW_BPD()1:00PM has now started 17:58:33 +Phil_Tetlow 17:58:58 +??P3 17:59:08 +David_Wood 17:59:20 +Ralph 17:59:49 + +44.122.347.aaaa 18:00:04 zakim, aaaa is SteveP 18:00:04 +SteveP; got it 18:00:11 zakim, ??p3 is Jeff 18:00:11 +Jeff; got it 18:00:49 Regrets: Garshol, McGuinness, Noy, Govoni, Rector, Nguyen, Baker, Nanni, Miller, Brickley, Gandon 18:00:51 +??P10 18:00:52 guus has joined #swbp 18:01:00 +Alistair_Miles (was ??P10) 18:01:19 bwm has joined #swbp 18:01:55 +??P12 18:02:08 Zakim, ??p12 is bwm 18:02:08 +bwm; got it 18:02:08 zakim, ??p12 is Brian 18:02:09 I already had ??P12 as bwm, Ralph 18:02:37 agenda+ Admin 18:02:40 agenda+ Liaison 18:02:50 agenda+ TF Updates 18:03:00 zakim, mute Alistiar 18:03:00 sorry, aliman, I do not see a party named 'Alistiar' 18:03:02 Regrets: Marco Nanni, Deb McGuiness, Elisa Kendall, Alan Rector, Tom Baker, Natasha Noy, Darren Govoni, Lars Garshol 18:03:05 zakim, mute Alistair 18:03:05 Alistair_Miles should now be muted 18:03:34 +??P17 18:03:47 ekw has joined #swbp 18:04:07 zakim, ??P17 os guus 18:04:07 I don't understand '??P17 os guus', guus 18:04:13 [Benjamin is here on irc] 18:04:38 zakim, ??p17 is Guus 18:04:38 +Guus; got it 18:04:53 +Evan_Wallace 18:04:56 Hi I'm not in my office and don't seem to be allowed to make int. calls, I'll be following via IRC 18:05:17 zakim, nominate a scribe 18:05:17 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bwm 18:05:36 zakim, don't pick on brian! :) 18:05:36 I'm glad that smiley is there, Ralph 18:05:46 zakim, who is here? 18:05:46 On the phone I see Phil_Tetlow, Jeff, David_Wood, Ralph, SteveP, Alistair_Miles (muted), bwm, Guus, Evan_Wallace 18:05:48 On IRC I see ekw, bwm, guus, JeffP, aliman, PhilT, Zakim, DavidW, RRSAgent, pepper, Ralph, BenjaminNguyen 18:06:45 ACTION: Ralph to inform the W3C Communications Team that we intend to cite http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Persistence as "W3C URI Persistence Policy" DONE 18:07:20 zakim, unmute Alistair 18:07:20 Alistair_Miles should no longer be muted 18:07:33 action -1 18:07:40 david: http-range-14 ... 18:07:44 Topic: httpRange-14 18:07:51 discussion re jeremies draft text on the list ... 18:07:58 ... message needs to go out ... 18:08:12 ... anyone wish to continue this discussion? 18:08:19 pepper: happy with text 18:08:32 david: we don't have or need final draft ... 18:08:36 + +39.051.209.aabb 18:08:45 final wording up to chairs, I'm happy to take that on ... 18:08:47 ChrisW has joined #swbp 18:08:54 zakim, aabb is Bologna 18:08:54 +Bologna; got it 18:09:13 zakim, Bologina has Fabio, Nicola, Valentina 18:09:13 sorry, Ralph, I do not recognize a party named 'Bologina' 18:09:17 zakim, Bologna has Fabio, Nicola, Valentina 18:09:17 +Fabio, Nicola, Valentina; got it 18:09:19 Valentina has joined #swbp 18:09:23 david: final comments on http-range-14? 18:09:26 zakim, mute bologna 18:09:26 Bologna should now be muted 18:09:29 [no comments] 18:09:45 guus: we need a final decision ... 18:10:15 david: proposal on table that wg chair sends message to TAG like what jjc drafted with subsequent comments made on list ... 18:10:31 PROPOSAL: redraft jjc's proposal and send to TAG 18:10:35 second: pepper 18:10:41 no objections 18:10:59 + +1.650.725.aacc 18:11:03 ACTION: davidw to draft the http-range-14 message 18:11:10 zakim, aacc is ChrisW 18:11:10 +ChrisW; got it 18:11:57 TOPIC: RDFTM survey 18:12:16 pepper: editors have new draft 18:12:56 ... posted 17 march ... also resolved comments ... 17th March draft ready to go for 1st WD. 18:12:59 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/RDFTM/survey-2005-03-17 17 March RDF/Topic Maps Survey draft 18:13:16 David: reviewers have responded to resolutions 18:13:34 pepper: we had some comments from DanC and Peter PS ... 18:13:49 we have responded, but perhaps not resolved completely. ... 18:14:00 can continue discussion in WG ... 18:14:21 +??P27 18:14:21 guus: diff of opinion with DanC ... ? 18:14:44 pepper: DanC has problem with terminology, danbri has posted some wording to bridge the gap ... 18:15:00 issue with peter is more complex, harder to achieve short term resolution. 18:15:20 zakim, who is talking? 18:15:23 david: no problem with the doc as it is 18:15:31 ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (69%), Ralph (4%), Alistair_Miles (25%), Guus (4%), Bologna (60%) 18:15:45 ... if there are comments from outside the group we can address the comments while draft is published. 18:15:59 guus: but nice to acknowledge these outside comments? 18:16:14 ???: peters objections not relvant to document in itself 18:16:25 s/???/Fabio/ 18:16:50 guus: don't want to give impression that putting someting under the carpet 18:17:00 pepper: but we continue discussion on list ... 18:17:09 guus: but a short note pointing to the mail message? 18:17:16 ralph: no obligation to do that 18:17:25 guus: I'm being inclusinve 18:17:38 pepper: pps disagrees with fundamental premiss of RDFTM TF 18:17:48 zakim, ??p27 is Fabien 18:17:48 +Fabien; got it 18:17:51 s/no problem with the doc as it is/no problem with moving the doc to WG draft in spite of current outside comments/ 18:17:58 zakim, who is here? 18:17:58 On the phone I see Phil_Tetlow, Jeff, David_Wood, Ralph, SteveP, Alistair_Miles, bwm, Guus, Evan_Wallace, Bologna, ChrisW, Fabien (muted) 18:18:00 Bologna has Fabio, Nicola, Valentina 18:18:01 On IRC I see Valentina, ChrisW, ekw, bwm, guus, JeffP, aliman, PhilT, Zakim, DavidW, RRSAgent, pepper, Ralph, BenjaminNguyen 18:18:06 ralph: encouraged by the discussion triggered ... 18:18:24 question 4 Steve: Have you added a reference for RDF Semantics? 18:18:24 our obligation as WG is to address all comments before go to next transition point ... 18:18:40 only applies for transition from last call to candidate rec ... 18:18:45 Fabio, Valentina and Nicola have the same irc connection this time 18:18:51 guus is right that we should be responding to comments visibly ... 18:18:58 zakim, mute bologna 18:18:58 Bologna should now be muted 18:19:04 but we don't need to allow them to hold us up publishing a draft .. 18:19:13 and in this case I think we should proceed ... 18:19:31 . Only question is do we start a new list? 18:19:34 gmckenzi has joined #swbp 18:19:45 ... but stick with it for now. 18:20:14 evan: put in reference to RDF semantics? 18:20:45 pepper: has not changed doc since 17 march, but happy to change reference 18:21:12 ACTION: pepper to change reference to RDF semantics 18:21:37 david: propose to move RDFTM survey to 1st WD 18:21:41 second: ralph 18:21:54 no objections 18:21:59 motion passed 18:22:21 ralph: have to get approval for the name of the doc ... 18:22:22 i would like to abstain 18:22:34 don't expect any issues to be raised,but may mean slightl delay 18:22:45 pepper: will post updated version at same location 18:22:53 pepper: thanks all 18:23:38 s/slightl delay/this first publication takes slightly longer than subsequent updates/ 18:23:54 i'm glad of your warm reaction to the doc 18:24:44 guus: plan for RDFTM was to move quickly to next doc? 18:25:03 pepper: how long expect 1st WD to be out before next version? 18:25:10 guus: no issue on timing 18:25:24 ralph: judge on rate of arrival of comments 18:25:40 guus: I meant the second deliverable 18:25:59 pepper: second deliverable 'guideliines' plan to start after easter 18:26:10 ... try to have something ready for xtreme 18:26:30 ... wrt the survey want to put it on agenda of iso tm committee .. 18:26:42 will wait for comments from ISO before making any revisions. 18:27:03 TOPIC: 2.2 OMG: ODM review 18:27:03 Steve: ISO TM meeting in mid-May 18:27:22 ACTION: Guus to review OWL metamodel CONTINUES 18:27:57 ACTION: Deb to go over OWL metamodel and provide a summary 18:28:00 continues 18:28:22 TOPIC: 2.3: DAWG: UNSAID and SOURCE issues 18:28:34 ACTION Chris to provide input to DAWG based on deployment experience. 18:28:34 ACTION: Chris to provide input to DAWG based on deployment experience. 18:28:39 continues 18:29:38 ACTION: Deb sort SOURCE issue discussion timing out with DanC how you like; copy in davidw 18:29:43 continues 18:29:48 TOPIC: 2.4 XML Schema Last Call 18:30:15 XML Schema intends to publish its LC shortly around 28 March with a 18:30:21 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Mar/0160.html proposal to publish XSCH WD 18:30:52 [wrong item; not for this topic] 18:30:55 guus: recent message from ??? chair of XML schema, we are on their dependency list ... 18:31:02 s/???/David Ezell/ 18:31:10 publishing last call 28marhc, asked us if 4 weeks is sufficient 18:31:20 ... jjc jas offered to review. 18:31:37 ACTION: jjc to review XML schema LC draft 18:31:46 jeff: will review also 18:31:57 -SteveP 18:32:26 ACTION: jeff to review XML schema LC draft 18:33:12 PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Feb 24 telecon 18:33:26 chris: more time to review f2f minutes 18:33:26 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-swbp-minutes previous meeting 2005-03-03 18:33:31 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Feb/0161.html previous telecon 2004-02-24 18:33:50 ralph concurrs with chris 18:34:11 second: chrisW 18:34:19 moved 18:34:32 david: carry over f2f minutes propsal to next telecon 18:34:35 s/moved/carried/ 18:34:48 PROPOSED next telecon 7 april 18000 UTC 18:34:50 Q+ 18:35:11 s/18000/1800 18:35:20 -Bologna 18:35:21 guus: location of last f2f? 18:35:51 ACTION: chairs & ralph to organise straw poll on f2f location 18:36:05 ralph: more candidates? 18:36:14 guus: have 2 candidates 18:36:29 candidates: vancouver, galway 18:37:08 TOPIC: SWBPD FAQ proposal 18:37:16 guus: good feedback 18:37:27 ... very useful thing 18:37:49 david: TF FAQ ? 18:37:55 guus: more liek the tutorial page 18:38:14 david: put with apps&demos or tutorial? 18:38:22 ... coordination issue. 18:38:47 guus: practice every time we publish a doc then the editors provide some FAQ questions leading to the doc 18:39:04 ... but still need a FAQ editor, so small task 18:39:12 david: this task needs assignment 18:39:45 any volunteers? 18:40:19 tomA was doing tutorials page but has had to drop out of group ... 18:40:28 so tutorials unmaintained 18:40:41 guus: we have limiter resources right now, do this later? 18:40:48 david: keep this on the agenda 18:41:06 ralph: keep a wishlist 18:41:31 Topic: PORT TF 18:41:53 ACTION: Al to run pubrules checker on SKOS Core Guide ; Ralph will help. DONE 18:42:08 ACTION: Alistair to change the wording of the link to "the persistence policy at URL http:" DONE 18:42:19 ACTION: Alistair to think about machine-readable change policies CONTINUE 18:42:24 ACTION: Alistair to change the links to examples DONE 18:42:53 Alistair: awaiting policy statement to include in core guide; expect them next week 18:43:52 ... plan to release guide and spec together without rearranging material into appendix as suggested at f2f 18:44:16 ... hope to propose first WD for spec, guide, and quick guide at next telecon 18:44:26 Topic: OEP TF 18:44:45 chris: at f2f propose to accept two drafts pending actions ... 18:44:56 classes as values actions done redy to go... 18:45:30 ... re value partitions ... alan decided not to make the change ... 18:45:47 so all actions considered completed, can we make them notes? 18:46:24 ralph: assuming wg concurs, then we make the content change (i.e. say WG note at the top0 ... 18:46:29 then make publication request. 18:46:57 chris: simple part-whole, will post version today, editors draft ready to be reviewed ... 18:47:10 at f2f guus and BillM from adobe volunteered ... 18:48:42 ... no progress on any other notes. 18:48:56 david: good progress 18:49:03 ACTION: Ralph investigate what action may be taken when an interested participant has been unable to get a response from his AC Rep 18:50:14 3.3 WordNet (Aldo) 18:50:23 carry forward (aldo not here) 18:50:51 ACTION: guus to contact aldo re whether he can attend next telecon 18:51:14 3.4 XML Schema datatypes (Jeremy) 18:51:41 jeff: jjc has integrated comments into draft ... 18:52:01 also has added editor's opinion ... 18:52:17 q+ to request to be excused 18:52:18 evan has reviewd the draft ... 18:52:32 evan: have extensivley reviewd 1st draft ... 18:52:41 have reviewed latest version, looks good 18:53:05 (23 march version ???) 18:53:38 http://dl-web.man.ac.uk/~panz/xsch-sw/ 18:53:39 evan: reviewed 11 march version 18:54:04 ralph: what changes? 18:54:27 -ChrisW 18:54:36 jeff: didn't change the date, difference is slightly revised editor's option, ... 18:54:49 also jeff added someting on formal semnatics of datatypes . 18:56:13 david: don't move to WD until clarify versions issue? 18:56:33 jeff: no, jjc removed some symbols to indicate change, but main text unchanged 18:56:50 ralph doing diff, concurrs with jeff 18:56:56 ralph happy 18:57:20 PROPOSED: move XML schema datatypes to 1st WD 18:57:24 evan: second 18:57:31 no objections 18:57:35 motion carried 18:58:32 ACTION: jeff to coordinate editorial changes, formatting requirements, etc for XML schema dtypes 18:58:45 3.5 Vocabulary management (TomB) 18:59:06 ACTION: TomB to post URL to his VM TF slides DONE 18:59:18 3.6 RDF-in-HTML (Ben) 18:59:32 ACTION: DanBri help write an rdf schema for the additional xhtml2 namespace elements 18:59:36 continues 18:59:45 ACTION: Gavin find out from his community and contacts if they have usecases 18:59:53 continues 19:00:13 ???: positive response on GRDDL ... 19:00:29 started dialogue with blogtool people .... 19:00:41 hope to tie up loose ends before next telecon ... 19:00:47 s/???/gavin 19:01:06 zakim, Fabien is really Gavin 19:01:06 +Gavin; got it 19:01:15 ACTION: BenA set a time for the RDF-in-XHTML telecons DONE 19:01:51 ACTION: the rdf in html tf to discuss whether GRDDL needs to work on XHTML2 documents 19:01:57 continues 19:02:02 ACTION: Tom Baker ask DC colleagues if many use rdf inside html 19:02:13 contines 19:03:36 ralph: suggestion we review editors draft of xhtml2 spec ... 19:03:46 conterargument : we should wait till publicatoin 19:04:23 david: html wg is having hard time reaching consensus, don't want to slow them down. 19:04:45 ralph: html wg unlikely to consider comments until after publication 19:05:34 ... intend myself to look at current editors draft 19:05:52 ... don't believe there is anything we can do to help them right now. 19:05:59 david: discuss at coordination group level? 19:06:23 ralph: semweb coordination discussed whether to invite liasion with hypertext coordination group .... 19:06:35 ericm took action to investigate telecon liaison 19:06:50 ... but now we're waiting for html-wg before take any action 19:06:59 including on GRDDL. 19:07:17 3.7 ADTF (Libby) 19:07:29 q? 19:07:40 bwm, you wanted to request to be excused 19:07:43 ack bwm 19:08:00 3.10 SE TF 19:08:01 -bwm 19:08:11 3.9 Tutorial Page (TomA) 19:08:24 ACTION: david to ask for volunteers to take over tutorial page 19:08:29 3.10 SE TF 19:08:47 phil: jeff is now editor for se draft ... 19:09:06 also action to ground draft in current OWL work ... 19:09:12 looking at significatn rewrite ... 19:09:21 aiming to get new version of draft by 23 april 19:09:45 david: will new version address comments made at f2f? 19:10:13 phil: we're doing good work, note becoming solid. 19:10:39 evan: there are things to do before we've satisfied commets, but tasks have been assigned. 19:11:00 jeff: we've worked on the draft, editors list only includes people who put hands on 19:11:13 ... example uses concrete syntax ... 19:11:24 structure of the draft changed .... 19:11:29 Jeff Pan summarized status in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Mar/0188.html 19:11:50 still a bit to do, including specific refs to ODM & integrate proposed idea with the example ... 19:12:06 & make more readable. 19:12:35 ... section about 'which language?' ... didn't get comment on why do we need this section ... 19:12:48 because OWL is the only one ... so can dorp this section ... 19:12:53 guus: don't drop 19:13:55 scribe error - guus says yes drop 19:14:15 jeff: do we need to do survey on auto se & domain theory ... 19:14:33 tf members are not experts, so may need invited experts to cover those areas. 19:14:56 ChrisW, Can you rejoin? 19:15:02 ok 19:15:04 phil: chirs wanted to look at these areas ... 19:15:44 -Alistair_Miles 19:16:05 Phil: Chris had a preference for a reference to previous experience in automated engineering and domain theory 19:16:13 +ChrisW 19:16:37 ... does the WG have an opinion on trying to get this material? 19:17:23 s/automated engineering/automated software engineering/ 19:17:52 q+ 19:17:56 Chris: agree with Guus' concern re document length 19:18:22 ... I suggested two people who might join the WG who are more current in those fields 19:18:38 Chris suggested: Michael Goedicke and Andrea Zisman as ASE experts 19:18:46 ack guus 19:19:17 Guus: not the size that concerns me 19:19:44 ... the chairs' problem is to make it clear to W3C that some critical expertise is needed 19:20:24 ... if some critical expertise is missing, then the case for an invited expert can be made 19:20:50 Phil: we don't have the historical expertise to do what Chris has proposed 19:21:29 ... should we proceed to approach one of these individuals? 19:21:30 ack Ralph 19:21:30 Ralph, you wanted to ask if the TF has an opinion on the importance of such an addition 19:21:36 Guus: please don't create expectation 19:21:47 q? 19:21:54 q+ 19:22:41 Phil: I could poll the TF 19:22:50 q? 19:22:54 ... I don't know of a consensus yet regarding the need for what Chris proposes 19:23:22 ack guus 19:23:44 Ralph: my preference would be to stay lean; don't presume you need to grow the TF 19:23:57 Guus: consider the purpose of the Note and what expertise is needed 19:24:25 ... then evaluate whether the WG has the expertise 19:24:54 Jeff: we can discuss this in the upcoming SE TF telecon 19:25:06 Guus: my comment about length was with respect to the OWL history 19:25:17 ... I think the history of OWL is not particularly relevant 19:25:49 ... however, I would not apply the length restriction to exclude new issues 19:26:16 Jeff: there is an upcoming workshop on automated software engineering 19:26:34 Evan: we submitted a paper to ISWC Galway 19:26:58 s/paper/workshop proposal/ 19:27:18 -ChrisW 19:27:20 -Phil_Tetlow 19:27:21 -Evan_Wallace 19:27:22 [adjourned] 19:27:23 -Gavin 19:27:23 -David_Wood 19:27:25 -Jeff 19:27:30 -Guus 19:27:32 -Ralph 19:27:33 SW_BPD()1:00PM has ended 19:27:34 Attendees were Phil_Tetlow, David_Wood, Ralph, +44.122.347.aaaa, SteveP, Jeff, Alistair_Miles, bwm, Guus, Evan_Wallace, +39.051.209.aabb, Fabio, Nicola, Valentina, +1.650.725.aacc, 19:27:36 ... ChrisW, Gavin 19:27:59 zakim, bye 19:27:59 Zakim has left #swbp 19:29:15 rrsagent, bye 19:29:15 I see 23 open action items: 19:29:15 ACTION: davidw to draft the http-range-14 message [2] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-11-03 19:29:15 ACTION: pepper to change reference to RDF semantics [3] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-21-12 19:29:15 ACTION: Guus to review OWL metamodel CONTINUES [4] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-27-22 19:29:15 ACTION: Deb to go over OWL metamodel and provide a summary [5] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-27-57 19:29:15 ACTION: Chris to provide input to DAWG based on deployment experience. [6] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-28-34-1 19:29:15 ACTION: Deb sort SOURCE issue discussion timing out with DanC how you like; copy in davidw [7] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-29-38 19:29:15 ACTION: jjc to review XML schema LC draft [8] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-31-37 19:29:15 ACTION: jeff to review XML schema LC draft [9] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-32-26 19:29:15 ACTION: chairs & ralph to organise straw poll on f2f location [10] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-35-51 19:29:15 ACTION: Al to run pubrules checker on SKOS Core Guide ; Ralph will help. DONE [11] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-41-53 19:29:15 ACTION: Alistair to change the wording of the link to "the persistence policy at URL http:" DONE [12] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-42-08 19:29:15 ACTION: Alistair to think about machine-readable change policies CONTINUE [13] 19:29:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/24-swbp-irc#T18-42-19 19:29:15 ACTION: Alistair to change the links to examples DONE [14] 19:29:15