14:33:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:33:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-irc
14:33:58 <JanneS> Zakim, mute JanneS
14:33:58 <Zakim> JanneS should now be muted
14:34:02 <Zakim> +DanC
14:34:20 <ericP> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:34:20 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0372.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:34:31 <DanC> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:34:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see HP, EricP, Kevin, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS (muted), PatH, DanC
14:34:34 <Zakim> HP has DaveB, AndyS
14:34:50 <DanC> janne, you're set to scribe, right?
14:34:52 <JanneS> all set
14:35:06 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:35:06 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:35:06 <JanneS> about to accept minutes from last week
14:35:15 <DanC> ammend 0358.html to show regrets DaveB
14:35:22 <swh_> Zakim, whats the code?
14:35:22 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, swh_.
14:35:25 <DanC> and RESOLVED to approve as ammended
14:35:37 <AndyS> Steve - 7333
14:35:45 <DanC> agenda + sparqlx
14:35:50 <swh_> AndyS, its the phone number I need
14:36:07 <AndyS> <DaveB> it's tel:+1.617.761.6200 code:7333
14:36:41 <JanneS> checking if agenda at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0372.html is ok
14:36:54 <Zakim> +??P7
14:36:56 <DaveB> regrets from me for any 29th March meeting (vacation)
14:37:04 <swh_> Zakim, ??P7 is SteveH
14:37:04 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:37:10 <JanneS> (how can I see if the irc is being logged by the robot?)
14:37:30 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:37:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-irc#T14-37-30
14:37:36 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
14:37:39 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:37:39 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JanneS (muted)
14:37:47 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:37:47 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HiroyukiS
14:37:57 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:37:57 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kendall_Clark (muted)
14:38:10 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:38:10 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:38:15 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:38:15 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:38:19 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:38:19 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
14:38:27 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:38:27 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH
14:38:53 <JanneS> Hey, I'll do again next week.
14:39:00 <JanneS> yes
14:39:11 <DanC> ok, thanks.
14:39:12 <JanneS> beer that is
14:39:17 <swh_> ok :)
14:39:19 <kendall> send me yr mailing address :>
14:39:31 <JanneS> :)
14:39:52 <JosD> JosD has joined #dawg
14:39:59 <DanC> next meeting 2005-03-29T14:30Z
14:40:06 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:40:06 <Zakim> agendum 2. "issue: sort" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:09 <bijan> bijan has joined #dawg
14:40:19 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:40:19 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-irc#T14-40-19
14:40:20 <Zakim> +JosD
14:40:25 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:40:25 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:41:17 <DanC> agenda + requirements review before last call
14:41:40 <kendall> new objectives are useful at this point even if we don't do them; there's likely to be another charter, eventually. they seem good input to that.
14:41:52 <DaveB> ref to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases#d4.11
14:41:52 <Zakim> +BryanT
14:41:55 <kendall> (i'd like that for the record, janne. ;>)
14:42:55 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#queryExecutionOrder $Revision: 1.45 $ sort same as 1.264
14:43:35 <JanneS> section 10.1
14:43:43 <DaveB> in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#solutionsResults
14:44:25 <DanC> agenda + comments on disjunction
14:45:42 <JanneS> AndyS: issue in comparing things which are by nature not comparable
14:46:23 <Zakim> +Bijan_Parsia
14:47:45 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:47:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see HP, EricP, Kevin, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS (muted), PatH, DanC, SteveH, JosD, BryanT, Bijan_Parsia
14:47:48 <Zakim> HP has DaveB, AndyS
14:47:55 <Yoshio> what's the question, again, please?
14:48:02 <DanC> "Is this design maturing rapidly? persue it or pull the plug and
14:48:02 <DanC> postpone?"
14:48:47 <JanneS> EricP: normally would pull the plug, willing to go via Andy's judgement
14:48:53 <JanneS> Kevin: pursue a little longer
14:49:31 <JanneS> Howard: counts on Andys work (did I get it right?)
14:49:38 <howardk> that's good janne
14:49:45 <JanneS> Hiroyuki: to pursue
14:49:57 <JanneS> Yoshio: didn't get you!
14:50:05 <DanC> Yoshi: prefer to persue
14:50:07 <Yoshio> to purseue
14:50:08 <ericP> yoshio: persue
14:50:09 <JanneS> ok
14:50:09 <kendall> Kendall: pursue
14:50:14 <JanneS> I'm ok to pursue
14:50:25 <thompsonbry> Persue.
14:50:29 <JanneS> Pat: abstain
14:50:36 <kendall> connolly: pull the plug
14:50:39 <JanneS> DanC: would like to pull the plug
14:51:01 <JanneS> Steve: goes with the editor's choice
14:51:14 <JanneS> Jos: prefers postponing
14:51:16 <SteveH> with a mild preference to postpone
14:51:22 <JanneS> Bryan: Pursue
14:51:30 <JanneS> Bijan: abstain
14:51:31 <AndyS> And DaveB?
14:52:06 <DaveB> postpone for me
14:53:56 <JanneS> EricP: would like to do the sorting right: collation order should be defineable via lexical space + language tag + datatype
14:53:59 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:53:59 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendall
14:54:04 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:54:04 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:54:04 <DaveB> where are collations?
14:54:22 <DanC> collations are "how to sort" rules
14:54:47 <JanneS> EricP: .. in order to make implementations consistent.
14:55:08 <JosD> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xpath-functions-20041029/#collations
14:55:13 <DaveB> xquery doesn't order/compareTo on rdf types
14:56:27 <JanneS> AndyS: notes difference between "03" and "3" in with xsd:integer datatype which are different in lexical space.
14:57:37 <JanneS> DanC asking for volunteers to review sort design
14:58:32 <thompsonbry> If we don't deal with this, we each implementation will deal with it and there will be no interoperability.
14:58:33 <JanneS> DanC: ...hoping for quick review
14:59:02 <ericP> i'm in favor of doing this completely or not at all
14:59:20 <ericP> i.e. no SORT keyword.
14:59:21 <SteveH> ericP, I'm in favour of roing it right, which maybe != completly
14:59:48 <SteveH> ericP, requireing a cast() means it can be right
14:59:57 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:59:57 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:01:01 <JanneS> discussion about the level of SORT implementations in rdf query languages
15:01:02 <Yoshio> re:voluntteer, what should be reviewed?
15:01:02 <SteveH> zakim, mute me
15:01:02 <Zakim> SteveH should now be muted
15:01:21 <howardk> yoshio: andy's sort design
15:01:31 <JanneS> Yoshio, the proposed SORT design in the document at  http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#solutionsResults
15:01:41 <Yoshio> thanks
15:01:42 <DaveB> from what I see http://www.openrdf.org/doc/users/ch06.html serql 1.1 has no sort, order
15:02:53 <DanC> ACTION PatH: review sort design in 2 weeks
15:03:39 <DanC> ACTION Kevin: review sort design at earliest convenience
15:03:55 <kendall> the RDF query language survey says none of the languages surveyed have order by except Versa. And that RQL has specific operators for retrieval of container elements.
15:04:10 <kendall> Reference: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~jbroeks/papers/survey.pdf
15:04:37 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:04:37 <Zakim> agendum 3. "optional test for with background inference" taken up [from DanC]
15:05:11 <SteveH> zakim, unmute me
15:05:11 <Zakim> SteveH should no longer be muted
15:05:13 <JosD> for partial order consider toplogical sort
15:05:27 <JanneS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0361.html
15:05:36 <JosD> s/toplogical/topological
15:06:11 <DaveB> I think: ?dtstart^^xsd:dateTime is wrong
15:06:37 <DanC> I was expecting the inferred triple (whose predicate is op:dateTime-greater-than ) to be in the input data
15:08:59 <DanC> ACTION DanC: follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple
15:09:06 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:09:06 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC]
15:10:17 <JanneS> Test in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0360.html testing input data, not query language (as it now is)
15:10:41 <SteveH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#syntax-004
15:13:14 <DaveB> I've looked a the tutrtle defn, and '.' isn't in qname
15:13:25 <JanneS> about to accept the test case
15:14:52 <DanC> ACTION DaveB: consider dots in qnames, report on impact on turtle
15:14:57 <bijan> zakim, mute me
15:14:57 <Zakim> Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
15:15:47 <AndyS> The current grammar special cases to ensure my trailing dots in qnames as per F2F - it has to go through hoops to do that
15:16:44 <thompsonbry> I feel strongly that we need to publish test cases.
15:17:22 <JanneS> ACTION EricP: to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page (continued)
15:17:44 <JanneS> ACTION SteveH: to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs (continued)
15:18:19 <JanneS> ACTION DaveB: to to propose source test to approve (continued)
15:18:51 <JanneS> ACTION AndyS: to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (continued - don't expect quick delivery)
15:19:07 <DanC> Zakim, close this agendum?
15:19:07 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, DanC.
15:19:09 <DanC> Zakim, close this agendum
15:19:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
15:19:10 <kendall> I might have to drop out, but it's a long shot that I would.
15:19:11 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:19:12 <Zakim> 5. SPARQL VBR edits [from DanC]
15:19:16 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
15:19:16 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:19:17 <Zakim> 5. SPARQL VBR edits [from DanC]
15:19:18 <Zakim> 6. SPARQL QL edits [from DanC]
15:19:19 <Zakim> 7. protocol edits, WSDL [from DanC]
15:19:20 <Zakim> 8. sparqlx [from DanC]
15:19:21 <Zakim> 9. requirements review before last call [from DanC]
15:19:22 <Zakim> 10. comments on disjunction [from DanC]
15:19:43 <thompsonbry> Dan, did we just take a decision to not publish the test cases?
15:20:01 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 9
15:20:01 <Zakim> agendum 9. "requirements review before last call" taken up [from DanC]
15:20:05 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
15:20:05 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendall
15:20:17 <thompsonbry> I would like to see a plan to publish the test cases make it onto the agenda soon.
15:21:07 <JanneS> DanC: we should soon start getting more comments from the public
15:21:59 <kendall> only thing i'd like to do to it as editor is spell check and run tidy to make sure it's valid. FWIW.
15:23:29 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
15:23:29 <Zakim> Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted
15:24:40 <JanneS> discussion about test case document - publishing as working draft/who's editor
15:25:35 <kendall> hi fred
15:27:16 <SteveH> I volunteer to make testcases a note, if theres desire for it
15:28:30 <kendall> zakim, mute me
15:28:30 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:28:38 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
15:28:38 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:28:48 <DanC> ACTION SteveH: prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency)
15:29:12 <JanneS> discussion about publishing reqs document
15:30:01 <bijan> zakim, mute me
15:30:01 <Zakim> Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
15:31:14 <JanneS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases
15:32:12 <JanneS> effectively discussion 2.18 as the motivator for WSDL
15:33:01 <DanC> hmm... "Working with enterprise web services tools"?
15:34:34 <DaveB> that's better
15:34:41 <bijan> +1
15:34:45 <kendall> that works for me
15:36:59 <bijan> zakim unmute me
15:37:39 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
15:37:39 <Zakim> Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted
15:37:46 <JanneS> the wording now leads into thinking the wsdl interface is mostly for inserting and not querying
15:38:15 <bijan> zakim, mute me
15:38:15 <Zakim> Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
15:38:50 <kendall> ACTION kendall: To rewrite 2.18: change the title, don't motivate "update", spell "WSDL" correctly. :>
15:39:45 <patH> Aandres Segovia collection vol 7
15:40:43 <patH> I don't hear it, Bijan.
15:40:53 <DanC> PROPOSED: to publish usecases 1.148 + revision to 2.18 by KC, reviewed by AFS, plus editorial fixups by KC, ok'd by EricP
15:40:58 <Zakim> -Bijan_Parsia
15:42:02 <JanneS> +1
15:42:11 <Zakim> +Bijan_Parsia
15:42:20 <DanC> so RESOLVED. ACTION KC, AFS, EP
15:42:42 <DanC> EricP will let us know if it's not gonna happen this week
15:43:46 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:43:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see HP, EricP, Kevin, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS (muted), PatH, DanC, SteveH, JosD, BryanT, Bijan_Parsia
15:43:48 <Zakim> HP has DaveB, AndyS
15:45:21 <DanC> DanC: serviceDescription, sort, update formally postpone...
15:47:39 <JanneS> discussion about new issues/requirements, going round the table
15:47:52 <DanC> (new or on-the-edge)
15:48:44 <JanneS> xml serialization for sparql has been suggested
15:50:23 <bijan> recursive queries over construct?!
15:50:38 <kendall> i thought kevin meant in one round trip,  one query
15:50:48 <kendall> iTQL & kowari do this
15:50:51 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#cascadedQueries
15:51:21 <AndyS> c.f. SQL FROM (SELECT ... FROM ... WHERE) and SQL IN and SQL NOT IN (row and column forms)
15:53:21 <DaveB> ask/boolean results queries could be inside an expression - but let's not do that now!
15:53:45 <DanC> (xml serialization itself is later on our agenda...)
15:54:14 <AndyS> FYI: *Some* subquery forms can be done in SPARQL by simple juxaposition
15:56:37 <ericP> is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0416 relevent ?
15:56:57 <kendall> i liked what you wrote, eric, fwiw. it's not a use case, but it's pretty reasonable start.
15:57:07 <JanneS> Yoshio has interest to have privacy related use case 
15:57:27 <ericP> sounds like a call for an abuse case
15:58:35 <thompsonbry> +1 on kendall's position.  better right than fast.
15:58:38 <JanneS> Kendall: would rather be late than wrong 
15:59:29 <JanneS> Zakim, unmute me
15:59:29 <Zakim> JanneS should no longer be muted
16:00:38 <JanneS> JanneS ok to include some of the latest arrivals but will oppose some things in this group's charter (xml encoding for sparql)
16:01:51 <DaveB> (timecheck? 90mins)
16:02:13 <DanC> phpht. used 90min already
16:02:13 <JanneS> Steve reluctant to include new stuff at this time
16:03:28 <JanneS> Jos agrees with both Kendall and DanC while explicitly relucant to xml syntax
16:04:05 <DanC> (bijan, ericp did an XSLT thingy to collect the defns. I found it useful)
16:04:06 <AndyS> Eric has an XSLT script to put the defns together
16:04:54 <DanC> (a soap binding... hmm...)
16:06:03 <AndyS> DaveB?
16:06:18 <DaveB> DanC: I still haven't commented
16:07:08 <JanneS> DaveB: the current set of new features looks like 1 more year of work
16:07:28 <DaveB> disjunction, sorting, casting, update, xmls erializatin, wsdl -<- all not imp to me, in this tiemscale
16:07:28 <kendall> eric: cool, that will help a lot
16:07:43 <DaveB> s/casting/cascading queries/
16:08:33 <JanneS> AndyS: in same lines with DaveB i.e. a lot of work to do with the new features and the eventual problems they reveal
16:09:06 <DanC> agenda?
16:09:17 <kendall> sure
16:09:41 <kendall> 2nd
16:09:47 <DanC> ADJOURN.
16:10:20 <Zakim> -Kendall_Clark
16:10:48 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:10:52 <Zakim> -Bijan_Parsia
16:10:54 <Zakim> -PatH
16:10:59 <howardk> bye
16:11:02 <Zakim> -HiroyukiS
16:11:03 <Zakim> -JanneS
16:11:04 <Zakim> -EricP
16:11:06 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:11:07 <Zakim> -Kevin
16:11:08 <Zakim> -JosD
16:11:09 <Zakim> -DanC
16:11:11 <Zakim> -HP
16:11:12 <Zakim> -Yoshio
16:11:19 <Zakim> -BryanT
16:11:25 <Zakim> -HowardK
16:11:26 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:11:27 <Zakim> Attendees were EricP, DaveB, AndyS, Kevin, HowardK, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS, PatH, HiroyukiS, DanC, SteveH, JosD, BryanT, Bijan_Parsia
16:11:33 <DanC> full house today... that's encouraging. I was getting the impression energy was waning.
16:12:33 <DanC> hmm... I wonder if there's anything constructive to do about the schedule... will discussing it more help
16:12:34 <DanC> ?
16:13:02 <SteveH> if constructive = removing features then go for it ;)
16:13:24 <SteveH> DanC, did I see a vote from you for not renaming the N3/turtle input files?
16:13:47 <DanC> yes, I'm for not renaming. what's done is done. but this is just advice, not to be taken too seriously
16:14:26 <ericP> bijan, defns from the spec --> http://www.w3.org/2000/06/webdata/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2001%2Fsw%2FDataAccess%2Frq23%2Fdefns.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2001%2Fsw%2FDataAccess%2Frq23%2F&auth=proxy&transform=Submit
16:14:30 <DanC> bob's comments on disjuction are quite likely sufficient new information to re-open that issue, which opens the possibility of dropping it
16:14:51 <JanneS> hmm, does the RRSAgent make HTML formatted raw logs any longer?
16:14:54 <DanC> his comments on declarativeness/ordering are perhaps sufficient to reopen nested optionals, similarly
16:15:04 <DanC> sure, Janne...
16:15:07 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:15:07 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-irc#T16-15-07
16:15:25 <DanC> or do you mean this?
16:15:29 <DanC> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:15:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html DanC
16:15:41 <JanneS> hmm, firefox pops a save as dialog..
16:15:43 <patH> BTW, guys, although I didnt want to reopen this can, I do think that going to market without an XML serialization means we will not be taken seriously. Even a vanilla one would be better than nothing.
16:15:44 <DanC> try http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-irc.html ?
16:15:55 <bijan> ericP hmm?
16:15:57 <JanneS> 403
16:16:02 <bijan> patH +1
16:16:14 <JanneS> finally got it, thanks.
16:16:16 <bijan> I'm also writing up, concisely, some use cases
16:16:24 <bijan> For...Howard?
16:16:35 <bijan> The person who requested them
16:16:43 <DanC> you're not re-opening the can, pat. ericp started opening, and bijan, kendall, and bryan took the top completely off
16:16:51 <patH> So, Bijan, shall we just write one? 
16:17:01 <bijan> Kendall sent a draft, i believe
16:17:07 <bijan> Yes
16:17:07 <DanC> pat, kendall sent one. did you see it? sparqlx in the subject, iirc
16:17:13 <patH> Ah, Im behind, sorry.
16:17:14 <bijan> Under the subject sparqlx
16:17:16 <bijan> YEah
16:17:25 <bijan> The Schema is generated so Ima going to have to hand tune it
16:17:32 <bijan> He just transliterated all teh examples in the spec
16:17:38 <DanC> it was item 8 on today's agenda; we didn't get to it
16:17:42 <patH> Well, that is fine.
16:18:05 <DanC> a rng schema surprised me... bijan, for your needs, we need an .xsd, right?
16:18:12 <bijan> Yep
16:18:19 <bijan> But that's just becasue it's generated
16:18:22 <patH> It seems oddf that a W3C WG should be so scared of XML...did the RDF fiasco scare us too much?
16:18:32 <bijan> We'll generate an .xsd from that
16:18:40 <DanC> I understand the excercise to be: come up with an XML Schema complex type for our abstract syntax
16:18:51 <bijan> And then I'll modify it by hand for readability and usefulness
16:19:09 <bijan> Yes DanC, that is the exercise
16:19:14 <patH> Yeh, thats what the OMG group did for SCL. They seem tohave software to help do it semiauto.
16:19:14 <bijan> This is as step toward that
16:19:16 <ericP> bob's comments dont motivate me to drop disjunction at all. i don't see at all why he thinks that disjunction has to be writable as optional.
16:19:28 <bijan> Kendall is submitting early to get feedback
16:19:41 <bijan> Mostly wanting, it hink, for people to check that the examples look sane to them
16:19:44 <patH> OK, I'm out of here now. Thanks for th efeedback.
16:19:58 <bijan> But also because you seem really concern with us sharing early
16:20:10 <bijan> He was psychic!
16:20:19 <DanC> RRSAgent, stop