IRC log of dawg on 2005-03-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:33:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:33:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:33:58 [JanneS]
Zakim, mute JanneS
14:33:58 [Zakim]
JanneS should now be muted
14:34:02 [Zakim]
14:34:20 [ericP]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:34:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:34:31 [DanC]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:34:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HP, EricP, Kevin, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS (muted), PatH, DanC
14:34:34 [Zakim]
HP has DaveB, AndyS
14:34:50 [DanC]
janne, you're set to scribe, right?
14:34:52 [JanneS]
all set
14:35:06 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:35:06 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:35:06 [JanneS]
about to accept minutes from last week
14:35:15 [DanC]
ammend 0358.html to show regrets DaveB
14:35:22 [swh_]
Zakim, whats the code?
14:35:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, swh_.
14:35:25 [DanC]
and RESOLVED to approve as ammended
14:35:37 [AndyS]
Steve - 7333
14:35:45 [DanC]
agenda + sparqlx
14:35:50 [swh_]
AndyS, its the phone number I need
14:36:07 [AndyS]
<DaveB> it's tel:+1.617.761.6200 code:7333
14:36:41 [JanneS]
checking if agenda at is ok
14:36:54 [Zakim]
14:36:56 [DaveB]
regrets from me for any 29th March meeting (vacation)
14:37:04 [swh_]
Zakim, ??P7 is SteveH
14:37:04 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:37:10 [JanneS]
(how can I see if the irc is being logged by the robot?)
14:37:30 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:37:30 [RRSAgent]
14:37:36 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
14:37:39 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:37:39 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JanneS (muted)
14:37:47 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:37:47 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HiroyukiS
14:37:57 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:37:57 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kendall_Clark (muted)
14:38:10 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:38:10 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:38:15 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:38:15 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:38:19 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:38:19 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
14:38:27 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:38:27 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH
14:38:53 [JanneS]
Hey, I'll do again next week.
14:39:00 [JanneS]
14:39:11 [DanC]
ok, thanks.
14:39:12 [JanneS]
beer that is
14:39:17 [swh_]
ok :)
14:39:19 [kendall]
send me yr mailing address :>
14:39:31 [JanneS]
14:39:52 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:39:59 [DanC]
next meeting 2005-03-29T14:30Z
14:40:06 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:40:06 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "issue: sort" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:09 [bijan]
bijan has joined #dawg
14:40:19 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:40:19 [RRSAgent]
14:40:20 [Zakim]
14:40:25 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:40:25 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:41:17 [DanC]
agenda + requirements review before last call
14:41:40 [kendall]
new objectives are useful at this point even if we don't do them; there's likely to be another charter, eventually. they seem good input to that.
14:41:52 [DaveB]
ref to
14:41:52 [Zakim]
14:41:55 [kendall]
(i'd like that for the record, janne. ;>)
14:42:55 [DanC] $Revision: 1.264 $ sort same as 1.264
14:43:35 [JanneS]
section 10.1
14:43:43 [DaveB]
14:44:25 [DanC]
agenda + comments on disjunction
14:45:42 [JanneS]
AndyS: issue in comparing things which are by nature not comparable
14:46:23 [Zakim]
14:47:45 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:47:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HP, EricP, Kevin, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS (muted), PatH, DanC, SteveH, JosD, BryanT, Bijan_Parsia
14:47:48 [Zakim]
HP has DaveB, AndyS
14:47:55 [Yoshio]
what's the question, again, please?
14:48:02 [DanC]
"Is this design maturing rapidly? persue it or pull the plug and
14:48:02 [DanC]
14:48:47 [JanneS]
EricP: normally would pull the plug, willing to go via Andy's judgement
14:48:53 [JanneS]
Kevin: pursue a little longer
14:49:31 [JanneS]
Howard: counts on Andys work (did I get it right?)
14:49:38 [howardk]
that's good janne
14:49:45 [JanneS]
Hiroyuki: to pursue
14:49:57 [JanneS]
Yoshio: didn't get you!
14:50:05 [DanC]
Yoshi: prefer to persue
14:50:07 [Yoshio]
to purseue
14:50:08 [ericP]
yoshio: persue
14:50:09 [JanneS]
14:50:09 [kendall]
Kendall: pursue
14:50:14 [JanneS]
I'm ok to pursue
14:50:25 [thompsonbry]
14:50:29 [JanneS]
Pat: abstain
14:50:36 [kendall]
connolly: pull the plug
14:50:39 [JanneS]
DanC: would like to pull the plug
14:51:01 [JanneS]
Steve: goes with the editor's choice
14:51:14 [JanneS]
Jos: prefers postponing
14:51:16 [SteveH]
with a mild preference to postpone
14:51:22 [JanneS]
Bryan: Pursue
14:51:30 [JanneS]
Bijan: abstain
14:51:31 [AndyS]
And DaveB?
14:52:06 [DaveB]
postpone for me
14:53:56 [JanneS]
EricP: would like to do the sorting right: collation order should be defineable via lexical space + language tag + datatype
14:53:59 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:53:59 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendall
14:54:04 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:54:04 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:54:04 [DaveB]
where are collations?
14:54:22 [DanC]
collations are "how to sort" rules
14:54:47 [JanneS]
EricP: .. in order to make implementations consistent.
14:55:08 [JosD]
14:55:13 [DaveB]
xquery doesn't order/compareTo on rdf types
14:56:27 [JanneS]
AndyS: notes difference between "03" and "3" in with xsd:integer datatype which are different in lexical space.
14:57:37 [JanneS]
DanC asking for volunteers to review sort design
14:58:32 [thompsonbry]
If we don't deal with this, we each implementation will deal with it and there will be no interoperability.
14:58:33 [JanneS]
DanC: ...hoping for quick review
14:59:02 [ericP]
i'm in favor of doing this completely or not at all
14:59:20 [ericP]
i.e. no SORT keyword.
14:59:21 [SteveH]
ericP, I'm in favour of roing it right, which maybe != completly
14:59:48 [SteveH]
ericP, requireing a cast() means it can be right
14:59:57 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:59:57 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:01:01 [JanneS]
discussion about the level of SORT implementations in rdf query languages
15:01:02 [Yoshio]
re:voluntteer, what should be reviewed?
15:01:02 [SteveH]
zakim, mute me
15:01:02 [Zakim]
SteveH should now be muted
15:01:21 [howardk]
yoshio: andy's sort design
15:01:31 [JanneS]
Yoshio, the proposed SORT design in the document at
15:01:41 [Yoshio]
15:01:42 [DaveB]
from what I see serql 1.1 has no sort, order
15:02:53 [DanC]
ACTION PatH: review sort design in 2 weeks
15:03:39 [DanC]
ACTION Kevin: review sort design at earliest convenience
15:03:55 [kendall]
the RDF query language survey says none of the languages surveyed have order by except Versa. And that RQL has specific operators for retrieval of container elements.
15:04:10 [kendall]
15:04:37 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:04:37 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "optional test for with background inference" taken up [from DanC]
15:05:11 [SteveH]
zakim, unmute me
15:05:11 [Zakim]
SteveH should no longer be muted
15:05:13 [JosD]
for partial order consider toplogical sort
15:05:27 [JanneS]
15:05:36 [JosD]
15:06:11 [DaveB]
I think: ?dtstart^^xsd:dateTime is wrong
15:06:37 [DanC]
I was expecting the inferred triple (whose predicate is op:dateTime-greater-than ) to be in the input data
15:08:59 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple
15:09:06 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:09:06 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC]
15:10:17 [JanneS]
Test in testing input data, not query language (as it now is)
15:10:41 [SteveH]
15:13:14 [DaveB]
I've looked a the tutrtle defn, and '.' isn't in qname
15:13:25 [JanneS]
about to accept the test case
15:14:52 [DanC]
ACTION DaveB: consider dots in qnames, report on impact on turtle
15:14:57 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
15:14:57 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
15:15:47 [AndyS]
The current grammar special cases to ensure my trailing dots in qnames as per F2F - it has to go through hoops to do that
15:16:44 [thompsonbry]
I feel strongly that we need to publish test cases.
15:17:22 [JanneS]
ACTION EricP: to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page (continued)
15:17:44 [JanneS]
ACTION SteveH: to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs (continued)
15:18:19 [JanneS]
ACTION DaveB: to to propose source test to approve (continued)
15:18:51 [JanneS]
ACTION AndyS: to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (continued - don't expect quick delivery)
15:19:07 [DanC]
Zakim, close this agendum?
15:19:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, DanC.
15:19:09 [DanC]
Zakim, close this agendum
15:19:09 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:19:10 [kendall]
I might have to drop out, but it's a long shot that I would.
15:19:11 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:19:12 [Zakim]
5. SPARQL VBR edits [from DanC]
15:19:16 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
15:19:16 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:19:17 [Zakim]
5. SPARQL VBR edits [from DanC]
15:19:18 [Zakim]
6. SPARQL QL edits [from DanC]
15:19:19 [Zakim]
7. protocol edits, WSDL [from DanC]
15:19:20 [Zakim]
8. sparqlx [from DanC]
15:19:21 [Zakim]
9. requirements review before last call [from DanC]
15:19:22 [Zakim]
10. comments on disjunction [from DanC]
15:19:43 [thompsonbry]
Dan, did we just take a decision to not publish the test cases?
15:20:01 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 9
15:20:01 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "requirements review before last call" taken up [from DanC]
15:20:05 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:20:05 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendall
15:20:17 [thompsonbry]
I would like to see a plan to publish the test cases make it onto the agenda soon.
15:21:07 [JanneS]
DanC: we should soon start getting more comments from the public
15:21:59 [kendall]
only thing i'd like to do to it as editor is spell check and run tidy to make sure it's valid. FWIW.
15:23:29 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
15:23:29 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted
15:24:40 [JanneS]
discussion about test case document - publishing as working draft/who's editor
15:25:35 [kendall]
hi fred
15:27:16 [SteveH]
I volunteer to make testcases a note, if theres desire for it
15:28:30 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:28:30 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:28:38 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:28:38 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:28:48 [DanC]
ACTION SteveH: prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency)
15:29:12 [JanneS]
discussion about publishing reqs document
15:30:01 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
15:30:01 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
15:31:14 [JanneS]
15:32:12 [JanneS]
effectively discussion 2.18 as the motivator for WSDL
15:33:01 [DanC]
hmm... "Working with enterprise web services tools"?
15:34:34 [DaveB]
that's better
15:34:41 [bijan]
15:34:45 [kendall]
that works for me
15:36:59 [bijan]
zakim unmute me
15:37:39 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
15:37:39 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted
15:37:46 [JanneS]
the wording now leads into thinking the wsdl interface is mostly for inserting and not querying
15:38:15 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
15:38:15 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
15:38:50 [kendall]
ACTION kendall: To rewrite 2.18: change the title, don't motivate "update", spell "WSDL" correctly. :>
15:39:45 [patH]
Aandres Segovia collection vol 7
15:40:43 [patH]
I don't hear it, Bijan.
15:40:53 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish usecases 1.148 + revision to 2.18 by KC, reviewed by AFS, plus editorial fixups by KC, ok'd by EricP
15:40:58 [Zakim]
15:42:02 [JanneS]
15:42:11 [Zakim]
15:42:20 [DanC]
15:42:42 [DanC]
EricP will let us know if it's not gonna happen this week
15:43:46 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:43:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HP, EricP, Kevin, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS (muted), PatH, DanC, SteveH, JosD, BryanT, Bijan_Parsia
15:43:48 [Zakim]
HP has DaveB, AndyS
15:45:21 [DanC]
DanC: serviceDescription, sort, update formally postpone...
15:47:39 [JanneS]
discussion about new issues/requirements, going round the table
15:47:52 [DanC]
(new or on-the-edge)
15:48:44 [JanneS]
xml serialization for sparql has been suggested
15:50:23 [bijan]
recursive queries over construct?!
15:50:38 [kendall]
i thought kevin meant in one round trip, one query
15:50:48 [kendall]
iTQL & kowari do this
15:50:51 [DanC]
15:51:21 [AndyS]
c.f. SQL FROM (SELECT ... FROM ... WHERE) and SQL IN and SQL NOT IN (row and column forms)
15:53:21 [DaveB]
ask/boolean results queries could be inside an expression - but let's not do that now!
15:53:45 [DanC]
(xml serialization itself is later on our agenda...)
15:54:14 [AndyS]
FYI: *Some* subquery forms can be done in SPARQL by simple juxaposition
15:56:37 [ericP]
is relevent ?
15:56:57 [kendall]
i liked what you wrote, eric, fwiw. it's not a use case, but it's pretty reasonable start.
15:57:07 [JanneS]
Yoshio has interest to have privacy related use case
15:57:27 [ericP]
sounds like a call for an abuse case
15:58:35 [thompsonbry]
+1 on kendall's position. better right than fast.
15:59:29 [JanneS]
Zakim, unmute me
15:59:29 [Zakim]
JanneS should no longer be muted
16:00:38 [JanneS]
JanneS ok to include some of the latest arrivals but will oppose some things in this group's charter (xml encoding for sparql)
16:01:51 [DaveB]
(timecheck? 90mins)
16:02:13 [DanC]
phpht. used 90min already
16:02:13 [JanneS]
Steve reluctant to include new stuff at this time
16:03:28 [JanneS]
Jos agrees with both Kendall and DanC while explicitly relucant to xml syntax
16:04:05 [DanC]
(bijan, ericp did an XSLT thingy to collect the defns. I found it useful)
16:04:06 [AndyS]
Eric has an XSLT script to put the defns together
16:04:54 [DanC]
(a soap binding... hmm...)
16:06:03 [AndyS]
16:06:18 [DaveB]
DanC: I still haven't commented
16:07:08 [JanneS]
DaveB: the current set of new features looks like 1 more year of work
16:07:28 [DaveB]
disjunction, sorting, casting, update, xmls erializatin, wsdl -<- all not imp to me, in this tiemscale
16:07:28 [kendall]
eric: cool, that will help a lot
16:07:43 [DaveB]
s/casting/cascading queries/
16:08:33 [JanneS]
AndyS: in same lines with DaveB i.e. a lot of work to do with the new features and the eventual problems they reveal
16:09:06 [DanC]
16:09:17 [kendall]
16:09:41 [kendall]
16:09:47 [DanC]
16:10:20 [Zakim]
16:10:48 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:10:52 [Zakim]
16:10:54 [Zakim]
16:10:59 [howardk]
16:11:02 [Zakim]
16:11:03 [Zakim]
16:11:04 [Zakim]
16:11:06 [Zakim]
16:11:07 [Zakim]
16:11:08 [Zakim]
16:11:09 [Zakim]
16:11:11 [Zakim]
16:11:12 [Zakim]
16:11:19 [Zakim]
16:11:25 [Zakim]
16:11:26 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:11:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were EricP, DaveB, AndyS, Kevin, HowardK, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS, PatH, HiroyukiS, DanC, SteveH, JosD, BryanT, Bijan_Parsia
16:11:33 [DanC]
full house today... that's encouraging. I was getting the impression energy was waning.
16:12:33 [DanC]
hmm... I wonder if there's anything constructive to do about the schedule... will discussing it more help
16:12:34 [DanC]
16:13:02 [SteveH]
if constructive = removing features then go for it ;)
16:13:24 [SteveH]
DanC, did I see a vote from you for not renaming the N3/turtle input files?
16:13:47 [DanC]
yes, I'm for not renaming. what's done is done. but this is just advice, not to be taken too seriously
16:14:26 [ericP]
bijan, defns from the spec -->
16:14:30 [DanC]
bob's comments on disjuction are quite likely sufficient new information to re-open that issue, which opens the possibility of dropping it
16:14:51 [JanneS]
hmm, does the RRSAgent make HTML formatted raw logs any longer?
16:14:54 [DanC]
his comments on declarativeness/ordering are perhaps sufficient to reopen nested optionals, similarly
16:15:04 [DanC]
sure, Janne...
16:15:07 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:15:07 [RRSAgent]
16:15:25 [DanC]
or do you mean this?
16:15:29 [DanC]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:15:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
16:15:41 [JanneS]
hmm, firefox pops a save as dialog..
16:15:43 [patH]
BTW, guys, although I didnt want to reopen this can, I do think that going to market without an XML serialization means we will not be taken seriously. Even a vanilla one would be better than nothing.
16:15:44 [DanC]
try ?
16:15:55 [bijan]
ericP hmm?
16:15:57 [JanneS]
16:16:02 [bijan]
patH +1
16:16:14 [JanneS]
finally got it, thanks.
16:16:16 [bijan]
I'm also writing up, concisely, some use cases
16:16:24 [bijan]
16:16:35 [bijan]
The person who requested them
16:16:43 [DanC]
you're not re-opening the can, pat. ericp started opening, and bijan, kendall, and bryan took the top completely off
16:16:51 [patH]
So, Bijan, shall we just write one?
16:17:01 [bijan]
Kendall sent a draft, i believe
16:17:07 [bijan]
16:17:07 [DanC]
pat, kendall sent one. did you see it? sparqlx in the subject, iirc
16:17:13 [patH]
Ah, Im behind, sorry.
16:17:14 [bijan]
Under the subject sparqlx
16:17:16 [bijan]
16:17:25 [bijan]
The Schema is generated so Ima going to have to hand tune it
16:17:32 [bijan]
He just transliterated all teh examples in the spec
16:17:38 [DanC]
it was item 8 on today's agenda; we didn't get to it
16:17:42 [patH]
Well, that is fine.
16:18:05 [DanC]
a rng schema surprised me... bijan, for your needs, we need an .xsd, right?
16:18:12 [bijan]
16:18:19 [bijan]
But that's just becasue it's generated
16:18:22 [patH]
It seems oddf that a W3C WG should be so scared of XML...did the RDF fiasco scare us too much?
16:18:32 [bijan]
We'll generate an .xsd from that
16:18:40 [DanC]
I understand the excercise to be: come up with an XML Schema complex type for our abstract syntax
16:18:51 [bijan]
And then I'll modify it by hand for readability and usefulness
16:19:09 [bijan]
Yes DanC, that is the exercise
16:19:14 [patH]
Yeh, thats what the OMG group did for SCL. They seem tohave software to help do it semiauto.
16:19:14 [bijan]
This is as step toward that
16:19:16 [ericP]
bob's comments dont motivate me to drop disjunction at all. i don't see at all why he thinks that disjunction has to be writable as optional.
16:19:28 [bijan]
Kendall is submitting early to get feedback
16:19:41 [bijan]
Mostly wanting, it hink, for people to check that the examples look sane to them
16:19:44 [patH]
OK, I'm out of here now. Thanks for th efeedback.
16:19:58 [bijan]
But also because you seem really concern with us sharing early
16:20:10 [bijan]
He was psychic!
16:20:19 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop