IRC log of eo on 2005-03-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:17:47 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:17:54 [shawn]
rrsagent, make logs world
13:18:05 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #eo
13:18:11 [shawn]
zakim, this will be eowg
13:18:11 [Zakim]
ok, shawn; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
13:18:18 [shawn]
zakim, ping me in 10
13:18:18 [Zakim]
ok, shawn
13:24:03 [judy]
judy has joined #eo
13:28:19 [Zakim]
shawn, you asked to be pinged at this time
13:29:03 [Andrew]
Andrew has joined #eo
13:29:21 [shawn]
meeting: EOWG
13:29:27 [shawn]
chair: judy
13:29:40 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
13:29:46 [Zakim]
13:29:58 [Andrew]
zakim, ?? is Andrew
13:29:59 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
13:30:00 [shawn]
13:30:18 [Zakim]
13:30:23 [Zakim]
13:31:24 [Zakim]
13:31:24 [Zakim]
13:31:47 [Andrew]
zakim, ??p1 is Justin
13:31:47 [Zakim]
+Justin; got it
13:32:00 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
13:32:00 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
13:32:13 [Zakim]
13:32:21 [Zakim]
13:32:31 [Andrew]
zakim, ??P3 is Wayne
13:32:31 [Zakim]
+Wayne; got it
13:33:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.679.aaaa
13:34:56 [Andrew]
zakim, +1.206.679.aaaa is Jack
13:34:56 [Zakim]
+Jack; got it
13:35:19 [Justin]
i can
13:35:32 [Justin]
your welcome
13:35:50 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
13:35:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin (muted), Wayne, Judy, Jack
13:35:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Andrew, judy, Wayne, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, shawn, shadi
13:36:14 [Justin]
scribenic: Justin
13:36:19 [shawn]
present: Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin, Wayne, Judy, Jack
13:36:36 [shadi]
13:36:36 [shawn]
scribenick: Justin
13:37:44 [Justin]
Wayne: I am teaching a class on Web Architecture and Usability and they will be working on retrofitting web sites.
13:38:07 [Justin]
Judy: We have a retrofitting document
13:38:26 [Justin]
Topic: Outreach Updates
13:38:54 [rcastaldo]
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13:39:02 [rcastaldo]
Hi folks :-)
13:39:10 [Andrew]
hi roberto
13:39:16 [rcastaldo]
13:39:23 [Justin]
Jack: There is fair amount of interest withiin folks in Boeing on retrofitting web sites. At some point and time we will be quite interested in it.
13:39:28 [Zakim]
13:39:40 [Justin]
zakim, ??P6 is roberto
13:39:40 [Zakim]
+roberto; got it
13:39:49 [shawn]
present+ Roberto
13:40:30 [Justin]
Judy: Daniel Dardiller (sp?) did a conf. talk about W3C standards in europe
13:40:47 [shadi]
13:41:10 [Justin]
Andrew: We ran a trial workshop on writing for the web with an emphasis on web usability and accessibility.
13:41:20 [Justin]
i am interested as well
13:42:17 [Zakim]
13:42:23 [Justin]
Shawn: WAI IG had a discussion suggested EO do writing guidelines for web accessibility.
13:42:39 [Andrew]
The NILS Web Writing Workshop is outlined at
13:42:58 [Zakim]
13:43:12 [Justin]
zakim, ??P6 is Roberto
13:43:12 [Zakim]
+Roberto; got it
13:43:36 [Justin]
Topic: Selecting Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools
13:44:47 [Justin]
Shadi: While the structure stayed the same...I reworded a lot. As I worked on strategies for selecting it became its out section.
13:45:43 [Justin]
Shadi: If we can go at the last section I have grouped and worked some of the items that to me make some more sense...I would be interested in hearing people comments.
13:46:42 [Justin]
Shadi: In the considerations section I have added some examples, a little bit of users, and how it fits in the process.
13:46:57 [Justin]
Judy: Brief general reactions?
13:48:35 [Justin]
Henk: In the top navigation bar, most of the links are not numbered except one.
13:50:54 [rcastaldo]
I've read section 1, and I do like it
13:52:06 [Justin]
Henk: We are not evaluating the checks we are evaluating the web sites. Would it be better to say to help users preform web accessibility checks.
13:52:30 [Justin]
Henk: I struggled with the second section of the intro.
13:53:49 [Andrew]
13:54:47 [Justin]
Shadi: Evaluation reviews
13:54:54 [Justin]
Henk: That would work.
13:56:08 [Justin]
Henk: In what eval tools can't do...there is the word in the last sentence....precise results or accurate results. Which is better?
13:56:35 [Justin]
Judy: I am concerned with overall that that sentence is very discouraging.
13:56:35 [Andrew]
"accurate" is better
13:57:12 [Justin]
Judy: It looks too exclusive.
13:57:33 [Justin]
Judy: Whats the main thing we are trying to communicate?
13:57:52 [Justin]
Wayne: Is this trying to say that the user has to pay attention to learning the limitations of the tool that they use?
13:58:01 [Justin]
Shadi: Yes
13:58:14 [Justin]
Shadi: it is a tool and it needs to be used correctly.
13:58:58 [Justin]
Henk: I do agree with Judy...we have to deal with the two ends....there is no tool with which you can check and repair your whole site with everything.
14:00:12 [Justin]
Wayne: In that sentence...there maybe a skilll requirement to use some tools effectively.
14:00:30 [Justin]
Shadi: correct, i don't know any tool that doesn't require some skill.
14:01:16 [Justin]
Judy: Section 2 - considerations
14:03:24 [shadi]
s/skill/skills - or basic understanding
14:04:03 [Justin]
Andrew: I think this needs a little bit of copy editing...but its good
14:04:23 [Justin]
Wayne: The organization was explained. These are the big things we want people to think about.
14:04:47 [Justin]
not really
14:05:41 [rcastaldo]
It looks fine and language sounds plain
14:06:56 [Justin]
Judy: I am not sure where to fit this in. The size of this document is a little overwhelming. I keep worrying about an individual who is looking for quick things and lands in this. I don't know if there is anything....the intro is very well broken out.
14:07:12 [Justin]
Judy: In considerations...maybe those need to be h3's
14:07:29 [Justin]
14:07:37 [Justin]
h3's would help
14:08:42 [Justin]
Shawn: I had the same reaction when i tried to skim it. We talked about short slide set about these documents. It would be good to give people a version where its quick and link to more details.
14:09:43 [Justin]
Shadi: are the titles for the overall sections...are those descriptive enough...that a experienced user would jump to features. Can we play with the in page navigation?
14:10:37 [Justin]
Wayne: Being able to navigate to the places is the trick here.
14:10:54 [Justin]
Wayne: The content looks like the write stuff if your looking for a tool.
14:11:09 [Justin]
Henk: the content is not the problem...but the formatting is an issue for me.
14:12:04 [Justin]
Judy: shadi, maybe you can use the h3s and see how you react to the titles.
14:12:16 [Justin]
Judy: Section 3 - Characteristics
14:14:58 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
14:14:58 [Zakim]
Justin should no longer be muted
14:15:38 [Justin]
Henk: in page feed back tools...last sentence use maybe and some.
14:17:22 [Justin]
Andrew: I had a problem with that sentence also
14:17:42 [Justin]
Shadi: The sequence in which the table cells are perceived....
14:18:48 [Justin]
Wayne: maybe features might be a little bit better and a little more plain language.
14:19:41 [Justin]
Henk: You might have one tool with many features...a tool with wizard interface feature
14:19:55 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
14:19:55 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
14:20:13 [Justin]
zakim, please unmute me
14:20:13 [Zakim]
Justin should no longer be muted
14:21:03 [Justin]
Shadi: I need some more discussion
14:21:19 [Justin]
Judy: Tools that generate reports
14:21:45 [Justin]
Wayne: What if you dropped off tools?
14:23:07 [Justin]
Shadi: It was exactly like that the previous version I was approaching this from the user i realize its about the characteristics.
14:25:34 [Justin]
Henk: the word mediate is off.
14:25:50 [Justin]
Judy: The sentence is still kind of complex
14:26:30 [rcastaldo]
I have to leave the call for few minutes
14:26:33 [Justin]
Judy: Section 4
14:26:39 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
14:26:39 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
14:27:23 [Justin]
Shadi: Is it easy to skim?
14:27:25 [Wayne]
II need to leave early now, goodbye
14:27:36 [Justin]
bye Wayne
14:27:44 [Zakim]
14:28:08 [Justin]
Shadi: If i can some more comments on the structure rather then the content
14:31:01 [Justin]
Henk: We need more white space
14:31:03 [rcastaldo]
I'm back
14:31:45 [Justin]
Henk: Reliability...false negatives and positives seemed like they are switched.
14:32:19 [Justin]
Henk: How about reporting false failures?
14:32:51 [Justin]
Henk: second explanation...detecting wrong ones, its reporting false failures
14:34:19 [Justin]
Shawn: Rather then going into the details of which is which....what if just sayed false negative or false positives and then here are the examples
14:34:57 [Andrew]
Judy (and Andrew agreed) that the terms are used correctly
14:34:57 [Justin]
Judy: We could just give the examples and not use the terms.
14:35:31 [Justin]
Judy: Its a strong concept that seems to resonate with people.
14:35:57 [Justin]
shadi: How about examples, then the terms
14:38:12 [Justin]
Andrew: Under checkpoint coverage...the whole idea of spidering seems to have been dropped.
14:39:11 [Justin]
Shadi: I was having difficulties with where to place that. its a more overaching issue.
14:39:39 [Justin]
Shadi; I grant your point about manual checkpoint coverage could be reflect how tools can help.
14:42:06 [shadi]
zakim, who is here?
14:42:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin (muted), Judy, Jack, Roberto (muted)
14:42:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see rcastaldo, Andrew, judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, shawn, shadi
14:43:21 [Justin]
Judy: How do we want to remind ppl to comment on the list?
14:44:00 [Justin]
Shadi: If you can send out a request to the list.
14:44:35 [Justin]
Judy: Ill point people to the changelog so people now what we have talked about
14:44:43 [Justin]
Topic: WAI Flyer
14:45:06 [shawn]
start of requirements & changelog:
14:45:13 [Justin]
Judy; the version in the agenda was a linear one
14:45:39 [Justin]
Judy: We use it mostly as a print document.
14:46:19 [Justin]
Judy: Flyer on one side and quick tips poster on the other side.
14:48:03 [Justin]
Judy: If we can take a look at resources and activies.
14:48:45 [shawn]
q+ to point out overlap with translations priorities
14:49:12 [shawn]
ack shawn
14:49:12 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to point out overlap with translations priorities
14:49:36 [Justin]
Shawn: We talked about the core set in the translation policies.
14:49:40 [Justin]
14:52:00 [Justin]
Judy: Can I see where people are at?
14:52:34 [Justin]
Zakim, please unmute me
14:52:34 [Zakim]
Justin should no longer be muted
14:53:01 [Justin]
Andrew: Taking a look what this is for and who its for would be a good idea
14:53:12 [Justin]
Jack: I am still trying to get an idea of what this is for
14:53:31 [Andrew]
Andrew: some things obvioulsy need to be included - documents/suites developed in the last few years
14:53:35 [Justin]
Jack: I get the idea this is for someone who is brand new.
14:54:05 [Justin]
Judy: this is a one pager to hand out at the conf.
14:55:40 [shawn]
rough draft of translations core set from last week's f2f discussion:
14:55:41 [shawn]
WAI QuickTips (short),, translations of WAI Quick Tips
14:55:41 [shawn]
Implementation Plan
14:55:41 [shawn]
* Introduction to Web Accessibility
14:55:41 [shawn]
* Essential Components of Web Accessibility
14:55:41 [shawn]
* Why Standards Harmonization is Essential to Web Accessibility
14:55:43 [shawn]
* Overview of the Web Accessibility Initiative,, [note: updated quarterly... @@ Overview of the Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Slides ]
14:55:46 [shawn]
How People with Disabilities Use the Web (medium-length)
14:55:48 [shawn]
[Business Case Overview Slide Set]
14:55:50 [shawn]
[Evaluation page(s) after revised]
14:56:20 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
14:56:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin, Judy, Jack, Roberto (muted)
14:56:22 [Zakim]
On IRC I see rcastaldo, Andrew, judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, shawn, shadi
14:56:28 [rcastaldo]
I'm here
14:57:27 [shawn]
what WAI does from redesigned home page:
14:57:28 [shawn]
WAI develops...
14:57:28 [shawn]
- guidelines widely regarded as the international standards for Web accessibility
14:57:28 [shawn]
- support materials to help understand and implement Web accessibility
14:57:28 [shawn]
- resources, through international collaboration
14:57:28 [shawn]
WAI welcomes...
14:57:29 [Justin]
roberto: It is very difficult to find a good summary of the activities and resources of WAI
14:57:30 [shawn]
- participation from around the world
14:57:32 [shawn]
volunteers to review, implement, and - promote guidelines
14:57:34 [shawn]
- dedicated participants in interest groups or working groups
14:58:25 [Justin]
Roberto: One of the most important things is that we have alot of educational materials.
14:58:59 [Justin]
zakim, please mute me
14:58:59 [Zakim]
Justin should now be muted
15:00:47 [Justin]
Judy; I want to get this interim revision out soon.
15:00:50 [shawn]
start of requirements (just revised from this discussion):
15:01:51 [judy]
15:03:06 [Justin]
Judy: reading the requirements doc
15:03:57 [Justin]
Judy: This is the place where list our sponsors.
15:04:19 [Justin]
Judy: The sponsor list is pretty outdated
15:05:42 [Justin]
Judy: We need to see if the core set fits here.
15:06:24 [Justin]
Judy: Roberto talk about how its key for first impressions
15:07:12 [Justin]
15:07:25 [Zakim]
15:08:33 [judy]
15:10:20 [Justin]
Judy: For the core set what do people think about that?
15:10:25 [Justin]
Judy: It doesn't include the guidelines
15:12:56 [Justin]
Judy: No meeting next week
15:12:58 [Zakim]
15:12:59 [Zakim]
15:13:00 [Justin]
your welcome
15:13:00 [Zakim]
15:13:04 [Zakim]
15:13:05 [rcastaldo]
HI all
15:13:06 [rcastaldo]
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15:13:09 [Zakim]
15:13:10 [judy]
thanks justin
15:13:10 [Zakim]
15:13:13 [judy]
bye all
15:13:15 [shawn]
regrets: alan
15:13:17 [Zakim]
15:13:18 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:13:19 [shawn]
regrets+ doyle
15:13:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin, Judy, Wayne, Jack, roberto
15:14:43 [Justin]
ill do it to the minutes later
15:18:56 [Justin]
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15:28:29 [shawn]
zakim, bye
15:28:29 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #eo
15:28:36 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:28:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shawn
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