13:17:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:17:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/03/11-eo-irc
13:17:54 <shawn> rrsagent, make logs world
13:18:05 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #eo
13:18:11 <shawn> zakim, this will be eowg
13:18:11 <Zakim> ok, shawn; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
13:18:18 <shawn> zakim, ping me in 10
13:18:18 <Zakim> ok, shawn
13:24:03 <judy> judy has joined #eo
13:28:19 <Zakim> shawn, you asked to be pinged at this time
13:29:03 <Andrew> Andrew has joined #eo
13:29:21 <shawn> meeting: EOWG
13:29:27 <shawn> chair: judy
13:29:40 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
13:29:46 <Zakim> +??P0
13:29:58 <Andrew> zakim, ?? is Andrew
13:29:59 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
13:30:00 <shawn> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JanMar/0166.html
13:30:18 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:30:23 <Zakim> +Shawn
13:31:24 <Zakim> +Henk
13:31:24 <Zakim> +??P1
13:31:47 <Andrew> zakim, ??p1 is Justin
13:31:47 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
13:32:00 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
13:32:00 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
13:32:13 <Zakim> +??P3
13:32:21 <Zakim> +Judy
13:32:31 <Andrew> zakim, ??P3 is Wayne
13:32:31 <Zakim> +Wayne; got it
13:33:13 <Zakim> + +1.206.679.aaaa
13:34:56 <Andrew> zakim,  +1.206.679.aaaa is Jack
13:34:56 <Zakim> +Jack; got it
13:35:19 <Justin> i can
13:35:32 <Justin> your welcome
13:35:50 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
13:35:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin (muted), Wayne, Judy, Jack
13:35:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Andrew, judy, Wayne, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, shawn, shadi
13:36:14 <Justin> scribenic: Justin
13:36:19 <shawn> present:  Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin, Wayne, Judy, Jack
13:36:36 <shadi> s/scribenic/scribenick
13:36:36 <shawn> scribenick: Justin
13:37:44 <Justin> Wayne: I am teaching a class on Web Architecture and Usability and they will be working on retrofitting web sites.
13:38:07 <Justin> Judy: We have a retrofitting document
13:38:26 <Justin> Topic: Outreach Updates
13:38:54 <rcastaldo> rcastaldo has joined #eo
13:39:02 <rcastaldo> Hi folks :-)
13:39:10 <Andrew> hi roberto
13:39:16 <rcastaldo> hi
13:39:23 <Justin> Jack: There is fair amount of interest withiin folks in Boeing on retrofitting web sites.  At some point and time we will be quite interested in it.
13:39:28 <Zakim> +??P6
13:39:40 <Justin> zakim, ??P6 is roberto
13:39:40 <Zakim> +roberto; got it
13:39:49 <shawn> present+ Roberto
13:40:30 <Justin> Judy: Daniel Dardiller (sp?) did a conf. talk about W3C standards in europe
13:40:47 <shadi> s/Dardiller/Dardailler
13:41:10 <Justin> Andrew: We ran a trial workshop on writing for the web with an emphasis on web usability and accessibility.
13:41:20 <Justin> i am interested as well
13:42:17 <Zakim> -roberto
13:42:23 <Justin> Shawn: WAI IG had a discussion suggested EO do writing guidelines for web accessibility.
13:42:39 <Andrew> The NILS Web Writing Workshop is outlined at http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/workshops/writing-melb.html
13:42:58 <Zakim> +??P6
13:43:12 <Justin> zakim, ??P6 is Roberto
13:43:12 <Zakim> +Roberto; got it
13:43:36 <Justin> Topic: Selecting Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools
13:44:47 <Justin> Shadi: While the structure stayed the same...I reworded a lot.  As I worked on strategies for selecting it became its out section.
13:45:43 <Justin> Shadi: If we can go at the last section I have grouped and worked some of the items that to me make some more sense...I would be interested in hearing people comments.
13:46:42 <Justin> Shadi: In the considerations section I have added some examples, a little bit of users, and how it fits in the process.
13:46:57 <Justin> Judy: Brief general reactions?
13:48:35 <Justin> Henk: In the top navigation bar, most of the links are not numbered except one.
13:50:54 <rcastaldo> I've read section 1, and I do like it
13:52:06 <Justin> Henk: We are not evaluating the checks we are evaluating the web sites.  Would it be better to say to help users preform web accessibility checks.
13:52:30 <Justin> Henk: I struggled with the second section of the intro.  
13:53:49 <Andrew> s/section/sentence/
13:54:47 <Justin> Shadi: Evaluation reviews
13:54:54 <Justin> Henk: That would work.
13:56:08 <Justin> Henk: In what eval tools can't do...there is the word in the last sentence....precise results or accurate results. Which is better?
13:56:35 <Justin> Judy: I am concerned with overall that that sentence is very discouraging.
13:56:35 <Andrew> "accurate" is better
13:57:12 <Justin> Judy: It looks too exclusive.
13:57:33 <Justin> Judy: Whats the main thing we are trying to communicate?
13:57:52 <Justin> Wayne: Is this trying to say that the user has to pay attention to learning the limitations of the tool that they use?
13:58:01 <Justin> Shadi: Yes
13:58:14 <Justin> Shadi: it is a tool and it needs to be used correctly.
13:58:58 <Justin> Henk: I do agree with Judy...we have to deal with the two ends....there is no tool with which you can check and repair your whole site with everything.
14:00:12 <Justin> Wayne: In that sentence...there maybe a skilll requirement to use some tools effectively.
14:00:30 <Justin> Shadi: correct, i don't know any tool that doesn't require some skill.
14:01:16 <Justin> Judy: Section 2 - considerations
14:03:24 <shadi> s/skill/skills - or basic understanding
14:04:03 <Justin> Andrew: I think this needs a little bit of copy editing...but its good
14:04:23 <Justin> Wayne: The organization was explained.  These are the big things we want people to think about.
14:04:47 <Justin> not really
14:05:41 <rcastaldo> It looks fine and language sounds plain
14:06:56 <Justin> Judy: I am not sure where to fit this in.  The size of this document is a little overwhelming.  I keep worrying about an individual who is looking for quick things and lands in this.  I don't know if there is anything....the intro is very well broken out.
14:07:12 <Justin> Judy: In considerations...maybe those need to be h3's
14:07:29 <Justin> agreed
14:07:37 <Justin> h3's would help
14:08:42 <Justin> Shawn: I had the same reaction when i tried to skim it.  We talked about short slide set about these documents.  It would be good to give people a version where its quick and link to more details.
14:09:43 <Justin> Shadi: are the titles for the overall sections...are those descriptive enough...that a experienced user would jump to features.  Can we play with the in page navigation?
14:10:37 <Justin> Wayne: Being able to navigate to the places is the trick here.
14:10:54 <Justin> Wayne: The content looks like the write stuff if your looking for a tool.
14:11:09 <Justin> Henk: the content is not the problem...but the formatting is an issue for me.
14:12:04 <Justin> Judy: shadi, maybe you can use the h3s and see how you react to the titles.
14:12:16 <Justin> Judy: Section 3 - Characteristics
14:14:58 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
14:14:58 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
14:15:38 <Justin> Henk: in page feed back tools...last sentence use maybe and some.
14:17:22 <Justin> Andrew: I had a problem with that sentence also
14:17:42 <Justin> Shadi: The sequence in which the table cells are perceived....
14:18:48 <Justin> Wayne: maybe features might be a little bit better and a little more plain language.
14:19:41 <Justin> Henk: You might have one tool with many features...a tool with wizard interface feature
14:19:55 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
14:19:55 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
14:20:13 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
14:20:13 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
14:21:03 <Justin> Shadi: I need some more discussion
14:21:19 <Justin> Judy: Tools that generate reports
14:21:45 <Justin> Wayne: What if you dropped off tools?
14:23:07 <Justin> Shadi: It was exactly like that before....in the previous version I was approaching this from the user interface...now i realize its about the characteristics.
14:25:34 <Justin> Henk: the word mediate is off.
14:25:50 <Justin> Judy: The sentence is still kind of complex
14:26:30 <rcastaldo> I have to leave the call for few minutes
14:26:33 <Justin> Judy: Section 4
14:26:39 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
14:26:39 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
14:27:23 <Justin> Shadi: Is it easy to skim?
14:27:25 <Wayne> II need to leave early now, goodbye
14:27:36 <Justin> bye Wayne
14:27:44 <Zakim> -Wayne
14:28:08 <Justin> Shadi: If i can some more comments on the structure rather then the content
14:31:01 <Justin> Henk: We need more white space
14:31:03 <rcastaldo> I'm back
14:31:45 <Justin> Henk: Reliability...false negatives and positives seemed like they are switched.
14:32:19 <Justin> Henk: How about reporting false failures?
14:32:51 <Justin> Henk: second explanation...detecting wrong ones, its reporting false failures
14:34:19 <Justin> Shawn: Rather then going into the details of which is which....what if just sayed false negative or false positives and then here are the examples
14:34:57 <Andrew> Judy (and Andrew agreed) that the terms are used correctly
14:34:57 <Justin> Judy: We could just give the examples and not use the terms.
14:35:31 <Justin> Judy: Its a strong concept that seems to resonate with people.
14:35:57 <Justin> shadi: How about examples, then the terms
14:38:12 <Justin> Andrew: Under checkpoint coverage...the whole idea of spidering seems to have been dropped.
14:39:11 <Justin> Shadi: I was having difficulties with where to place that.  its a more overaching issue.
14:39:39 <Justin> Shadi; I grant your point about manual checkpoint coverage could be reworked...to reflect how tools can help.
14:42:06 <shadi> zakim, who is here?
14:42:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin (muted), Judy, Jack, Roberto (muted)
14:42:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see rcastaldo, Andrew, judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, shawn, shadi
14:43:21 <Justin> Judy: How do we want to remind ppl to comment on the list?
14:44:00 <Justin> Shadi: If you can send out a request to the list.
14:44:35 <Justin> Judy: Ill point people to the changelog so people now what we have talked about
14:44:43 <Justin> Topic: WAI Flyer
14:45:06 <shawn> start of requirements & changelog: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-flyer.html
14:45:13 <Justin> Judy; the version in the agenda was a linear one
14:45:39 <Justin> Judy: We use it mostly as a print document.
14:46:19 <Justin> Judy: Flyer on one side and quick tips poster on the other side.
14:46:36 <Justin> Judy: We have newer sponsors.
14:48:03 <Justin> Judy: If we can take a look at resources and activies.
14:48:45 <shawn> q+ to point out overlap with translations priorities
14:49:12 <shawn> ack shawn
14:49:12 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to point out overlap with translations priorities
14:49:36 <Justin> Shawn: We talked about the core set in the translation policies.
14:49:40 <Justin> agreed
14:52:00 <Justin> Judy: Can I see where people are at?
14:52:34 <Justin> Zakim, please unmute me
14:52:34 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
14:53:01 <Justin> Andrew: Taking a look what this is for and who its for would be a good idea
14:53:12 <Justin> Jack: I am still trying to get an idea of what this is for
14:53:31 <Andrew> Andrew: some things obvioulsy need to be included - documents/suites developed in the last few years
14:53:35 <Justin> Jack: I get the idea this is for someone who is brand new.
14:54:05 <Justin> Judy: this is a one pager to hand out at the conf.
14:55:40 <shawn> rough draft of translations core set from last week's f2f discussion:
14:55:41 <shawn> WAI QuickTips (short), http://www.w3.org/WAI/References/QuickTips/, translations of WAI Quick Tips
14:55:41 <shawn> Implementation Plan
14:55:41 <shawn> * Introduction to Web Accessibility
14:55:41 <shawn> * Essential Components of Web Accessibility
14:55:41 <shawn> * Why Standards Harmonization is Essential to Web Accessibility
14:55:43 <shawn> * Overview of the Web Accessibility Initiative, http://www.w3.org/Talks/WAI-Intro/, [note: updated quarterly... @@ Overview of the Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Slides ]
14:55:46 <shawn> How People with Disabilities Use the Web (medium-length)
14:55:48 <shawn> [Business Case Overview Slide Set]
14:55:50 <shawn> [Evaluation page(s) after revised]
14:56:20 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
14:56:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin, Judy, Jack, Roberto (muted)
14:56:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see rcastaldo, Andrew, judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Justin, shawn, shadi
14:56:28 <rcastaldo> I'm here
14:57:27 <shawn> what WAI does from redesigned home page:
14:57:28 <shawn> WAI develops...
14:57:28 <shawn> - guidelines widely regarded as the international standards for Web accessibility
14:57:28 <shawn> - support materials to help understand and implement Web accessibility
14:57:28 <shawn> - resources, through international collaboration
14:57:28 <shawn> WAI welcomes...
14:57:29 <Justin> roberto: It is very difficult to find a good summary of the activities and resources of WAI
14:57:30 <shawn> - participation from around the world
14:57:32 <shawn> volunteers to review, implement, and - promote guidelines
14:57:34 <shawn> - dedicated participants in interest groups or working groups
14:58:25 <Justin> Roberto: One of the most important things is that we have alot of educational materials.
14:58:59 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
14:58:59 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
15:00:47 <Justin> Judy; I want to get this interim revision out soon.
15:00:50 <shawn> start of requirements (just revised from this discussion): http://jigteam.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-flyer.html
15:01:51 <judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-flyer.html
15:03:06 <Justin> Judy: reading the requirements doc
15:03:57 <Justin> Judy: This is the place where list our sponsors.
15:04:19 <Justin> Judy: The sponsor list is pretty outdated
15:05:42 <Justin> Judy: We need to see if the core set fits here.
15:06:24 <Justin> Judy: Roberto talk about how its key for first impressions
15:07:12 <Justin> yes
15:07:25 <Zakim> -Henk
15:08:33 <judy> test?
15:10:20 <Justin> Judy: For the core set what do people think about that?
15:10:25 <Justin> Judy: It doesn't include the guidelines
15:12:56 <Justin> Judy: No meeting next week
15:12:58 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:12:59 <Zakim> -Jack
15:13:00 <Justin> your welcome
15:13:00 <Zakim> -Shawn
15:13:04 <Zakim> -Andrew
15:13:05 <rcastaldo> HI all
15:13:06 <rcastaldo> rcastaldo has left #eo
15:13:09 <Zakim> -Roberto
15:13:10 <judy> thanks justin
15:13:10 <Zakim> -Justin
15:13:13 <judy> bye all
15:13:15 <shawn> regrets: alan
15:13:17 <Zakim> -Judy
15:13:18 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:13:19 <shawn> regrets+ doyle
15:13:19 <Zakim> Attendees were Andrew, Shadi, Shawn, Henk, Justin, Judy, Wayne, Jack, roberto
15:14:43 <Justin> ill do it to the minutes later
15:18:56 <Justin> Justin has left #eo
15:28:29 <shawn> zakim, bye
15:28:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eo
15:28:36 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:28:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/03/11-eo-minutes.html shawn
15:34:26 <shawn> shawn has left #eo