IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-03-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:47 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:00:00 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
15:00:00 [David]
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15:00:19 [Michael]
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15:00:28 [wendy]
15:00:31 [wendy]
Chair: Michael
15:01:02 [wendy]
zakim, this will be WCAG
15:01:02 [Zakim]
ok, wendy, I see WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM already started
15:01:07 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Slatin, ??P7, ??P9, [IPcaller]
15:01:12 [David]
15:01:19 [ben]
zakim, ??P9 is Ben
15:01:19 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
15:01:26 [Zakim]
15:01:33 [ben]
zakim, [IPcaller] is Chris
15:01:33 [Zakim]
+Chris; got it
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15:01:43 [wendy]
zakim, ??P7 is David
15:01:43 [Zakim]
+David; got it
15:01:53 [Zakim]
15:02:18 [Zakim]
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15:03:14 [wendy]
type, /me message
15:03:49 [Zakim]
15:03:57 [Tim]
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15:04:46 [wendy]
zakim, [Microsoft]
15:04:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[Microsoft]', wendy
15:04:54 [Zakim]
15:04:57 [wendy]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Jenae
15:04:57 [Zakim]
+Jenae; got it
15:05:04 [Becky_Gibson]
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15:15:12 [wendy]
scribe: wendy
15:15:19 [DonFEvans]
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15:15:20 [wendy]
jenae summarizes mon-wednesday
15:15:42 [wendy]
ja: we met mon and tues. wed there were 330 folks.
15:15:49 [DonFEvans]
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15:15:54 [wendy]
ja: we had a few folks who don't usually call in joined on monday.
15:16:10 [wendy]
ja: the highlight of the day was steve bratt joining us in the afternoon to talk about getting through rec track.
15:16:32 [wendy]
ja: he wasn't able to give us concrete steps, but suggested going to last call sooner than later.
15:16:42 [wendy]
ja: we talked about what "2 implementations" means for us.
15:16:50 [wendy]
ja: he talked about test cases and that can help us get through CR.
15:17:07 [wendy]
ja: next steps: probably another WD, then last call, then CR (test cases), PR, and REc
15:17:23 [wendy]
ja: Tuesday we met with PF and UA WGs about making javascript accessible. exciting demo.
15:17:29 [wendy]
ja: wednesday there were several topics.
15:17:37 [wendy]
ja: at lunch we talked about test cases.
15:17:53 [wendy]
ja: the whole group into talbes of 8 and found out that about 40% of specs have test suties.
15:18:07 [wendy]
ja: all the groups reported back. lots of people in the same place. pushback that there aren't enough resources.
15:18:17 [wendy]
ja: people don't understand why we need them and what makes a good test case.
15:18:26 [wendy]
ja: other highlight - the WAI site redesign presentation by Shawn Henry.
15:18:36 [wendy]
ja: good stats on the current usability of the site and also on the new design.
15:18:51 [wendy]
ja: thought it would be helpful if we ran our html test cases against the redeisn to ensure it will be accessible.
15:19:40 [wendy]
js: on wednesday, got my attn: versioning at the beginning of the day (thought provoking discussion. diff points of view. shelf-life of different specs. planning for obsolesences)
15:19:50 [wendy]
js: thinking about that as an integral part of the process, not that it means failure.
15:20:13 [wendy]
js: several presentations about multimodal applications - speech-activated with text-to-speech out that had interesting applications and implications for us.
15:20:37 [wendy]
tb: on friday - al, wendy, and michael presented to request that specification consider accessibility.
15:21:02 [wendy]
tb: believe that there is a possible way forward for specGL to have an annex or appendix that lists additional considerations.
15:21:21 [wendy]
tb: help get accessibility into specGL as a best practice.
15:22:29 [wendy]
dmd: on mon and tues, a bit slow start to getting started. we revisted some issues that we thought we had resolved. e.g., do we ask the main group about doing a 1.1 or 1.5 instead of a 2.0.
15:23:00 [wendy]
dmd: made us revisit what is working and what is not.
15:23:40 [wendy]
dmd: mc thought about moving the principles up as an overarching principles to frame all of the guidelines (atag, uaag, wcag, xag).
15:23:45 [wendy]
dmd: we met with UAWG on thursday at lunch.
15:23:55 [wendy]
dmd: we talked with them about this. got a maybe.
15:24:05 [wendy]
dmd: it's a proposal taht we may want to discuss w/the main group.
15:24:15 [wendy]
mc: I've been asked to send it to the list before tomorrow' mtg.
15:24:35 [wendy]
bc: while you were doing that, wac and i met with richard ishida about i18n.
15:24:50 [wendy]
bc: while ago had shared techs dtd.
15:25:01 [wendy]
bc: believe their work provides us with a model to fit our needs for techniques.
15:25:34 [wendy]
mc: mon focused on requirements - what are we doing.
15:25:43 [wendy]
mc: supposed to be an hour, but took the day.
15:25:51 [wendy]
mc: others have identified issues that came up from that discussion.
15:26:15 [wendy]
mc: clear that we need to solidfy the requirements. stop the target from moving.
15:26:47 [wendy]
mc: need to be braver about saying, "an issue has been dealt with and is closed."
15:27:07 [wendy]
mc: also braver that consensus does not have to mean unanymity. can find ways to move forward.
15:27:16 [wendy]
15:27:33 [wendy]
mc: on tuesday, we met with other groups, but a major goal was to create a project plan.
15:27:49 [wendy]
mc: we worked on the outline of a plan and will work on some more.
15:28:20 [wendy]
mc: the idea is that we will have a clear list of tasks to accomplihs, timeline for each task, try to break them into 1 or 2 hour chunks to decrease the daunting factor to get people plugged in.
15:28:30 [wendy]
mc: once we agree on the timeline we need to hold ourselves to it.
15:28:57 [wendy]
mc: have a rough outline will complete in the next few weeks.
15:29:23 [wendy]
js: strong consensus of those present that making a decision about baseline and form of checklists are "blocker issues" that are preventing us from moving forward.
15:29:36 [wendy]
js: the outcome of those will have impact on deliverables.
15:30:40 [Michael]
ack wendy
15:30:49 [Michael]
scribe: Michael
15:30:57 [Michael]
wac: relation of CSS and HTML techniques
15:31:20 [Michael]
e.g., a CSS test may depend on an HTML test, e.g., structure in HTML -> CSS presentation
15:31:37 [Michael]
action to create proposals, and Jenae will create tests
15:31:52 [Michael]
look at testable assertions
15:32:10 [Michael]
some questions from first day made it clear that we need very good documentation of our decisions
15:32:24 [Michael]
when a repeat question comes up, we just point to the decision and rationale
15:32:48 [Michael]
more of an internal document for now but could become an FAQ or WCAG 1.0 to 2.0 transition material
15:33:21 [Michael]
issues with WCAG 2.0 are important points, but hopefully we can provide clarity within this work
15:33:54 [Michael]
this review helpful for minutes
15:34:00 [Michael]
action: everyone send trip report to Wendy
15:34:22 [Michael]
js: met with UA group while they met with SVG to review UA responses to SVG draft
15:34:37 [Michael]
SVG group creating examples, planning to have an accessibility chapter
15:34:58 [Michael]
request from Peter Korn instead that they make all the examples demonstrate accessibility
15:35:06 [Michael]
accessibility chapter then focuses on more complex, subtle things
15:35:25 [Michael]
they seemed receptive
15:35:41 [Zakim]
15:35:54 [Michael]
wac: met with Dean Jackson and Chris Lilly (SVG)
15:36:07 [Michael]
accessibility techniques for SVG note
15:36:22 [Michael]
also met with ERT group Friday morning to discuss test suites and EARL
15:36:34 [Michael]
we want them to do test suites, but their main focus is EARL
15:36:51 [Michael]
discussion of what we can provide so they can create test suites
15:37:01 [Michael]
changes in WCAG 2 that might affect EARL
15:37:34 [wendy]
js: had an informal conversation thursday a.m. with jim allan and jon gunderson from UAWG.
15:37:46 [Michael]
scribe: wendy
15:38:00 [wendy]
js: had questions about how they describe conditional content.
15:38:32 [wendy]
js: uawg hadn't meant it to be exclusive,that should get title with other info. but that's not clear from way written.
15:38:53 [wendy]
fyi: david, /me comments are not logged.
15:39:14 [wendy]
js: discussed creating a joing working group note that could help clarify.
15:39:30 [wendy]
js: another way to help get interoperability between guideliens, w/out going through the rec track.
15:39:37 [wendy]
js: so, a lot of coordination with other groups.
15:39:48 [wendy]
tb: there were 3 issues in coordinating with WCAG (via QA).
15:40:03 [wendy]
tb: at the close of the meeting on friday, wac is going to look at qa responses.
15:40:46 [wendy]
tb: qa wants wcag to identify deprecated features by providing mapping between 1.0 and 2.0.
15:42:46 [wendy]
action: jenae and wendy review and respond to qa responses to specgl comments (by the end of march)
15:43:12 [wendy]
js: lunch on wednesday was assigned seating to meet new people and discuss test suites.
15:43:35 [wendy]
js: didn't talk a lot about that, but did discuss machine tests versus human tests. no one else had thought about human testability.
15:43:49 [wendy]
js: all of their stuff is narrowly tech specs. everything is algorithmically testable.
15:44:16 [wendy]
js: we had a good discussion about what quality alt text might sound like. tbl was in the discussion.
15:44:48 [wendy]
dmd: thursday during the day we mapped 1.1 to uawg.
15:45:03 [wendy]
js: in relation to thinking about baseline issue and if we adopt uaag 1.0 what does it say about a certain technique.
15:47:33 [wendy]
zakim, who's here?
15:47:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Slatin, David, Ben, Wendy, Tim_Boland, Ken_Kipnes, Becky_Gibson, Don_Evans, Jenae, Michael_Cooper
15:47:35 [Zakim]
On IRC I see DonFEvans, Becky_Gibson, Tim, ken, Michael, David, RRSAgent, ChrisR, Zakim, wendy, ben
15:49:23 [wendy]
wac: many aciton items about requirements documents. when get those done and get back to discussion?
15:49:55 [wendy]
js: i am presenting on wednesday.
15:50:20 [wendy]
js: could use it as an opportunity to try out the persona notion
15:52:07 [wendy]
wac: what action items need to be completed before the CSUN F2F?
15:52:21 [wendy]
wac: seems like planning and requirements document-related action items.
15:54:07 [wendy]
js: do w have test files that have been reviewed for all of guideline 1.1
15:54:31 [wendy]
mc: believe we're in good shape
15:54:40 [wendy]
js: some revision work that needs to happen with guidelien 1.1.
15:54:59 [wendy]
js: other things that techs group needs to focus on to prep for public WD?
15:55:09 [wendy]
mc: there are open action items on all docs, particularly css and html.
15:55:13 [wendy]
mc: don't think we can at this point.
15:55:33 [wendy]
mc: particularly need scripting updates, has gone througha couple rounds with no changes. partly b/c not sure what to do until resolve baseline.
15:55:49 [wendy]
mc: i have many action items that probably won't get done until end of march.
15:55:54 [wendy]
js: could those be delegated?
15:56:01 [wendy]
mc: except editorial, yes.
15:56:19 [wendy]
js: also at plenary discussed modifying the technique submission form to make it easier to use to harvest techs from people.
15:56:59 [wendy]
js: cna send somethingt o bc today or otmorrow.
15:57:35 [wendy]
bg: i can spend time on css or something else. don't have a lot of time, b/c traveling.
16:03:39 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Slatin, David, Ben, Wendy, Tim_Boland, Ken_Kipnes, Becky_Gibson, Don_Evans, Jenae, Michael_Cooper
16:13:02 [DonFEvans]
16:22:29 [Zakim]
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16:24:24 [DonFEvans]
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16:28:17 [wendy]
RRSAGent, draft minutes
16:28:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate wendy
16:28:30 [Tim]
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16:46:37 [Zakim]
16:46:39 [Zakim]
16:46:48 [Zakim]
16:46:49 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:46:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Slatin, Ben, Wendy, Chris, David, Tim_Boland, Ken_Kipnes, Becky_Gibson, Don_Evans, Michael_Cooper, Jenae
18:12:37 [Zakim]
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21:53:39 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
21:53:43 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
21:53:47 [wendy]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:53:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate wendy
22:15:19 [ben]
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22:35:13 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
22:35:13 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items