IRC log of qa on 2005-03-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:18:42 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #qa

14:18:42 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc

14:19:08 [olivier]

olivier: take up agenda 1

14:19:08 [olivier]

[09:17] Zakim: thinks agendum 1. "finding scribes" taken up [from dom]

14:19:09 [olivier]

[09:17] olivier: day 1 AM: olivier

14:19:09 [olivier]

[09:17] olivier: day 1 PM: mark

14:20:53 [dom]

agenda+ report of interactions withh CSS

14:21:16 [olivier]

scribes: day2 AM lynne, day2PM Patrick

14:21:26 [olivier]

agenda+ future of QAWG

14:21:32 [olivier]

zakim, take up agenda 3

14:21:32 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "future of QAWG" taken up [from olivier]

14:21:57 [olivier]

Dom reports recent decision to make QAWG continue until at least August

14:22:28 [olivier]

W3C Management wanted to see result of LC, and feedback was positive enough

14:23:00 [olivier]

work of the QAWG has been appreciated, this is good

14:23:00 [olivier]

leaves us until August to bring SpecGL to REC

14:23:48 [olivier]

dom: we may get a few months' extension to wrap up the work if we get to REC

14:23:48 [olivier]

... to handle the start of life after REC

14:23:48 [olivier]

... which leads us to ~ nov-dec this year

14:24:03 [olivier]

... Currently Karl is the sole chair of the WG, requested some help to be able to focus energy on more liaisons

14:25:54 [olivier]

karl: requesting more active participation from WG participants, to make the animation of the WG smoother

14:26:10 [olivier]

dom: should we give roles, or keep this informal?

14:26:32 [olivier]

karl: no need to give people more formal commitment at the moment

14:26:56 [olivier]

... there is, however, a lack of participation on the mailing-list

14:26:56 [olivier]

... which makes it difficult to prepare agenda, etc.

14:28:35 [olivier]

dom: have to agree with Karl that activity on ML has not been at its highest, and that can be problematic because the WG cannot handle everything during telcons

14:29:09 [olivier]

dom: is there anything that karl or myself can do to help you participating more?

14:29:53 [olivier]

Mark: hard times at NIST, consumed a lot of our time

14:30:04 [olivier]

... should slow down after April

14:30:25 [olivier]

... unfortunate, it limited our participation

14:31:06 [olivier]

Richard: would not mind having tasks assigned

14:31:06 [olivier]

... being new makes it a bit difficult to know what I should be doing

14:32:10 [olivier]

Patrick: similar situation to Mark's, very busy, but committed to come back to task (test FAQ) ASAP

14:33:14 [olivier]

Lofton: my volunteer free time has been limited... might lighten up in a few months

14:33:14 [olivier]

karl: will make proposals in the weeks to come, based on this feedback

14:33:37 [olivier]

Richard: given meeting schedule, having the agenda earlier would help

14:34:52 [olivier]

karl: agrees, will try

14:35:11 [olivier]

... really encourage people to add dynamic to mailing-list, will help too

14:36:04 [olivier]

Note: Patrick Callahan, doing QA at Sun, observer

14:36:15 [olivier]

... wanted to familiarize with issues of the QAWG

14:36:20 [olivier]

zakim, agenda?

14:36:20 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:

14:36:21 [Zakim]

1. finding scribes [from dom]

14:36:23 [Zakim]

2. report of interactions withh CSS [from dom]

14:36:24 [Zakim]

3. future of QAWG [from olivier]

14:36:28 [dom]

Zakim, close agendum 1

14:36:28 [Zakim]

agendum 1 closed

14:36:29 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:36:30 [Zakim]

2. report of interactions withh CSS [from dom]

14:36:30 [olivier]

zakim, close agenda 3

14:36:30 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

14:36:31 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

14:36:32 [Zakim]

2. report of interactions withh CSS [from dom]

14:36:40 [olivier]

zakim, agenda+ QAIG report

14:36:40 [Zakim]

agendum 4 added

14:36:48 [olivier]

zakim, take up agenda4

14:36:48 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "QAIG report" taken up [from olivier]

14:37:04 [dom]

ScribeNick: dom

14:37:20 [dom]

olivier: the QA IG is a bit of a mixed bucket

14:37:33 [dom]

... we haven't had a very big activity in the IG in the past few months

14:37:45 [dom]

... except as part of being a channel for QA comments

14:37:51 [dom]

s/QA/QA WG/

14:38:11 [dom]

... the QA IG is also hosting projects for Education & Outreach resources for Web standards

14:38:27 [dom]

... we have had a common project with the WaSP (Web Standards Project)

14:38:37 [dom]

... it has slowed down a lot since last summer

14:39:11 [dom]

... we want to finish our current article on <object> tag in HTML

14:39:32 [dom]

... once this done, we'll probably want to restart this project with another org

14:39:57 [dom]

... we don't want to just publish on our own, since it's important for us to get an interface with the public

14:40:23 [dom]

... other projects under QA IG realm are tools

14:40:40 [dom]

... esp the QA IG is animating the work of several open sources projects

14:40:46 [dom]

... e.g. the Markup and CSS validators

14:41:48 [dom]

... we're trying to improve the communications with the WG developing the technologies tested by these tools

14:42:01 [dom]

... I'll be meeting with the HTML WG tomorrow for instance

14:42:24 [dom]

Tim: the CSS Validator needs some major revisions

14:42:35 [dom]

... we discussed it at our F2F

14:43:06 [dom]

olivier: the CSS Validator was developed by someone who was not part of the CSS WG

14:43:13 [dom]

... then it got unmaintained

14:43:23 [dom]

... so the QA IG took it under its wing

14:43:31 [dom]

... and I tried to re-energize the project

14:44:02 [dom]

... but it has proved to be difficult, since it is somewhat hard to maintain

14:45:05 [dom]

Tim: Bert, CSS WG Chair, was envisioning maybe that a rewrite from scratch was needed

14:45:10 [dom]

... due to the high number of changes

14:46:10 [dom]

... Bert has an action item to track the validator-related issues

14:47:42 [dom]

olivier: one of the questions wrt the IG was how the IG would or could be remodeled after the WG closes

14:48:15 [dom]

agenda+ report on yesterday lunch table

14:48:56 [dom]

tim: one of the requests that was made during yesterday lunch table about tests was to have a repository of tests

14:49:25 [dom]

... that should be done at a level above the WG level, as in the pubrules

14:49:39 [dom]

zakim, pick up agendum 5

14:49:39 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'pick up agendum 5', dom

14:49:44 [dom]

zakim, take up agendum 5

14:49:44 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "report on yesterday lunch table" taken up [from dom]

14:50:28 [dom]

olivier: at my table, the point was made that it was hard enough to come up with a test suite for a single spec

14:50:42 [dom]

... let alone thinking about multi-specs ts

14:50:51 [dom]

... but the need for a common ground was raised

14:51:05 [dom]

... www-qa could certainly be used as a way to discuss this type of questions

14:51:34 [dom]

... maybe we could renew that use of www-qa by announcing to chairs@w3.org

14:51:55 [lofton]

lofton has joined #qa

14:53:07 [dom]

dom: my only fear with using www-qa for that is that people would have bigger expectations than what we can match today

14:53:27 [dom]

olivier: I think we have already some pretty good materials to hand over

14:54:02 [dom]

... plus, some chairs and staff contacts are pretty happy about their work on test suites

14:54:15 [dom]

... and could answer these types of requests

14:54:38 [dom]

dom: but that hasn't proved to be what happened in the past

14:54:48 [dom]

olivier: yeah, www-qa is maybe not the right place now

14:54:57 [dom]

... but maybe we can turn it into the right place

14:55:16 [dom]

... I'm hopeful this can happen if we get more people from chairs@w3.org

14:55:50 [dom]

tim: another concern was the body of knowledge a WG gathers when building a TS get lost when the group closes

14:56:14 [dom]

... so an idea was for the WG to provide a report or summary of their knowledge on the matter before closing

14:56:37 [dom]

olivier: besides process, I don't think WG would want to do that at the time they're closing

14:57:18 [dom]

http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix

14:57:21 [olivier]

... but if the documentation has been taken care of during life of WG, it's just a matter of packaging

14:57:35 [olivier]

dom: we could be more proactive in requesting sharing of experience

14:57:50 [olivier]

... we already manage the QA Matrix http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix

14:58:45 [olivier]

... (dom shows matrix)

15:00:00 [olivier]

... we could be more proactive in gathering that knowledge

15:00:15 [olivier]

... we actually did that at some point, with RDF Core and OWL

15:01:04 [olivier]

olivier: We can't do everything, but in any case a mail to chairs@ now and then wouldn't hurt

15:02:04 [olivier]

dom: anyone else has interesting points to report on this lunch table session?

15:02:27 [olivier]

(discussing when Wendy and Jon will be able to send us the feedback material from that session)

15:04:03 [olivier]

tim: CR criteria could be made more easily available (? scribe missed)

15:04:14 [olivier]

dom: - explains more about implementation reports -

15:04:28 [olivier]

... there may be a lack of information, still

15:05:02 [olivier]

... this reinforces the point that we should send a mail to chairs@ , pointing to matrix, inviting to discussion in www-qa

15:05:13 [olivier]

ACTION: dom to send a mail to chairs@ , pointing to matrix, inviting to discussion in www-qa

15:07:40 [olivier]

Lofton: - gives some background on ERT WG, EARL, and their interest in test cases description language

15:09:33 [olivier]

Mark: some interesting point of view from someone in WAI

15:10:10 [olivier]

... discussion on why test suites can or cannot be comprehensive enough to cover accessibility

15:12:03 [olivier]

Patrick: xforms guy - they lost they TS - raised the issue of hosting

15:12:44 [dom]

olivier: sometimes, WGs have very precise requirements

15:12:57 [dom]

... hard to conciliate sometimes with our existing systems

15:13:12 [dom]

... but losing a TS sounds really incredible

15:13:40 [olivier]

... could recommend backup to w3c space even if TS not hosted here

15:16:56 [dom]

olivier: at my lunch table, the point was made that it may be more important to make it easy to contribute test cases rather than to make it automatable

15:17:11 [dom]

mark: I think it is rather naive

15:18:13 [dom]

lynne: we've seen that not providing a test harness make basically a test suite irrelevant

15:18:19 [dom]

... because it doesn't get used

15:18:30 [olivier]

more discussion on relative importance of making a TS easy to contribute, and importance of a harness to make it easy to (re)use

15:19:00 [olivier]

lynne: both are importance. relative importance may depend on who you are targetting

15:19:08 [olivier]

s/importance/important/

15:21:40 [olivier]

lynne: not everyone was happy with this session (socializing was good, though) but I think in the end it worked well

15:24:11 [olivier]

Patrick Callahan: notes that honestly had trouble understanding what this was about - wasn't very clear, even though it may have generated good ideas

15:27:04 [olivier]

Lofton: thinking the results were pretty positive -only 5 no response.

15:27:18 [olivier]

... maybe we could leverage that after the fact to recruit for the qawg

15:29:55 [olivier]

10:30 - break

15:30:19 [dom]

for 15 minutes

15:30:46 [Zakim]

-Karl

15:54:52 [karl]

zakim, call karl-work

15:54:52 [Zakim]

ok, karl; the call is being made

15:54:53 [Zakim]

+Karl

15:55:50 [olivier]

agenda?

15:56:06 [olivier]

zakim, close agenda 4

15:56:06 [Zakim]

agendum 4 closed

15:56:08 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:56:08 [olivier]

zakim, close agenda 5

15:56:09 [Zakim]

2. report of interactions withh CSS [from dom]

15:56:10 [Zakim]

agendum 5 closed

15:56:11 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

15:56:12 [Zakim]

2. report of interactions withh CSS [from dom]

15:56:37 [olivier]

zakim, agenda+ QA Documents: Status

15:56:37 [Zakim]

agendum 6 added

15:57:33 [olivier]

dom: goal of this session is to discuss the status and plans for documents produced by QAWG

15:57:42 [olivier]

... starting with "valiability in specifications"

15:57:55 [olivier]

... I am the lead editor, new editor draft readty

15:58:02 [olivier]

s/readty/ready/

15:58:53 [olivier]

... this new draft includes changes based on feedback

15:59:31 [olivier]

... still working on it, will have to add the remaining dimensions (extensibility, optional features) without re-inventing what has been done already (in specGL)

15:59:57 [olivier]

lynne: what is the final goal for this doc?

16:00:11 [olivier]

dom: WG note - should be a good goal for this publication, it's in pretty good shape

16:00:33 [karl]

q+

16:01:35 [olivier]

karl: we should publish it as a WG note. it's already a good doc, and that would attract more comments

16:01:58 [olivier]

... should not wait too much to publish it, extension etc are being discussed a lot at the moment within w3c

16:03:32 [olivier]

dom: significant amount of work needed, not trivial to publish soon

16:03:51 [olivier]

karl: would be happy to help by reviewing

16:04:54 [olivier]

ACTION: karl to send ideas for extensibility section of ViS

16:05:24 [olivier]

lynne: will review it

16:06:07 [olivier]

dom: schedule: cannot expect anything ready before end of month

16:06:18 [olivier]

... may target publication for end of April

16:07:19 [olivier]

Tim: deprecation should be addressed in ViS

16:07:48 [olivier]

dom: could be addressed along with extensibility, matches current discussions on extensibility and versioning

16:09:31 [olivier]

karl: have to coordinate with TAG on these issues

16:10:24 [karl]

karl: TAG and QA WG are working on the same topics often

16:10:39 [karl]

... I think the QA WG should focus on the logistics part of it

16:10:49 [karl]

... more than the theoritical part of it

16:10:49 [olivier]

... and let TAG focus on theory

16:11:35 [olivier]

dom: talked with Vincent Quint, new chair of TAG - agree that discussion on common work and how to split it would be good

16:11:52 [olivier]

karl : I think we should send whatever theoretical ideas as comments to the TAG

16:12:06 [olivier]

... practical solutions could be added to a document such as ViS

16:12:23 [olivier]

... we must remain practical in our publications

16:13:23 [olivier]

-> Test FAQ document

16:13:38 [olivier]

Patrick: little progress in last month

16:13:45 [olivier]

... hope to get back to it in a couple of weeks

16:13:59 [olivier]

... we want to keep it short and pythy, we are probably close

16:14:05 [olivier]

... maybe need more examples

16:14:50 [olivier]

ACTION: Patrick to give list of examples we are looking for (Test FAQ)

16:15:05 [olivier]

s/pythy/pithy/

16:15:25 [olivier]

s/FAQ)/FAQ) by March 18th/

16:15:54 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'where are we'

16:16:02 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'current location'

16:16:10 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T16-16-02

16:16:31 [olivier]

Patrick: we could even be aggressive and try to publish by end of month

16:17:53 [dom]

dom: Lynne sent a link to a testing faq this morning to www-qa

16:18:08 [dom]

lynne: could be usefully used as a checklist for us to see what we've addressed or not

16:18:16 [dom]

... or as an external reference

16:18:29 [dom]

patrick: I think it would be good to point to it

16:19:16 [olivier]

karl: was wondering if bugzilla would help

16:19:30 [olivier]

patrick: not for now, it's rather small enough

16:19:49 [olivier]

... or maybe I should give it a try

16:20:28 [olivier]

... will think of it

16:21:43 [olivier]

discussing whether it will change feedback

16:22:01 [olivier]

ACTION: dom to create a "Test FAQ" component in the QA bugzilla

16:22:22 [dom]

ACTION: patrick to put the existing Test FAQ issues in bugzilla

16:22:59 [olivier]

relation between Test FAQ, TCDL and EARL

16:23:06 [olivier]

karl:

16:23:45 [olivier]

karl: joining ERT to give a "QA" view in the process of developing EARL

16:25:33 [olivier]

... also renewed interest in TCDL

16:25:50 [olivier]

Patrick: would like us to work on it...

16:26:04 [karl]

q+

16:27:15 [olivier]

karl: can (should) start small

16:27:38 [olivier]

... make it small, practical, fast

16:27:59 [olivier]

Lofton: agree that this should be the next priority item in our queue

16:29:28 [olivier]

... would be good to clarify status of oct 2003 contribution on TCDL

16:33:29 [olivier]

Patrick: would be very good to work on this once we're done with current business, good for us and good for testing in W3C at the moment

16:33:39 [olivier]

dom: how should we proceed?

16:34:03 [olivier]

dom, patrick: agree to get our current documents done, and then start work on this

16:36:29 [olivier]

-> QA Handbook

16:37:29 [olivier]

lofton: details what is left to work on

16:39:01 [olivier]

lofton: schedule - can't start work before april

16:39:12 [olivier]

... so mid-june seems to be a possible target

16:42:24 [dom]

[discussions on the QA process document template]

16:43:25 [dom]

tim: the templates were very useful for the various WGs I have been working with

16:44:13 [olivier]

lynne: there are startup guides documents - maybe we could add templates to some of those

16:44:43 [olivier]

dom: tied to idea of QA Framework primer

16:45:56 [olivier]

... it has a lot of information, but could be re-organized

16:46:05 [olivier]

... too overwhelming for a primer

16:46:38 [karl]

q+

16:46:53 [olivier]

dom projecting http://www.w3.org/QA/WG/qaframe-primer

16:48:40 [olivier]

karl: would be really good to make progress on primer, since groups always have the same kind of questions

16:49:10 [olivier]

... they don't know if there are places that hold answers, or part of

16:51:26 [olivier]

dom: we could make a standard set of slides to present the primer to new groups

16:52:12 [olivier]

ACTION: dom to send link to slideset used for CDF presentation

16:52:54 [olivier]

ACTION: dom to create a standard set of slides to present the primer to new groups - by ~ march 10

16:54:52 [olivier]

Tim: asks where groups would find that from our QAWG page

16:55:00 [olivier]

dom: there is the QA activity page

16:55:09 [olivier]

... but would be good to add something to QA WG page

16:55:21 [olivier]

ACTION: dom to add pointer to primer in QAWG homepage

17:00:13 [olivier]

Spec GL: different choices for next transition

17:00:25 [olivier]

... we already have (or will have?) implementations

17:01:19 [olivier]

PR or CR

17:01:24 [dom]

-> http://www.w3.org/QA/2004/12/reports-list-table SpecGL Implementation Report

17:01:38 [olivier]

(kark explains what PR and CR are)

17:03:54 [olivier]

xml:id is a real usage of specGL

17:04:07 [olivier]

... we could go to PR directly, and get to REC rapidly

17:04:47 [olivier]

dom note other similar documents (webarch, charmod) skipped CR

17:13:32 [olivier]

discussing comments (received recently and which we will probably receive soon from xslt)

17:14:08 [olivier]

breaking for lunch

17:14:18 [olivier]

back at 13:15

17:14:37 [Zakim]

-Karl

17:14:46 [Zakim]

-Constellation316

17:14:47 [Zakim]

QA_QAWG(TP)8:30AM has ended

17:14:49 [Zakim]

Attendees were Constellation316, Karl

17:14:49 [olivier]

zakim, bye

17:14:50 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #qa

17:14:57 [olivier]

rrsagent, bye

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items:

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: dom to send a mail to chairs@ , pointing to matrix, inviting to discussion in www-qa [1]

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T15-05-13

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: karl to send ideas for extensibility section of ViS [2]

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T16-04-54

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Patrick to give list of examples we are looking for (Test FAQ) [3]

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T16-14-50

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: dom to create a "Test FAQ" component in the QA bugzilla [4]

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T16-22-01

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: patrick to put the existing Test FAQ issues in bugzilla [5]

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T16-22-22

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: dom to send link to slideset used for CDF presentation [6]

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T16-52-12

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: dom to create a standard set of slides to present the primer to new groups - by ~ march 10 [7]

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T16-52-54

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: dom to add pointer to primer in QAWG homepage [8]

17:14:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/03-qa-irc#T16-55-21