IRC log of pfua on 2005-03-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/03/01-pfua-irc
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rrsagent, make log public
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rrsagent, make log world
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Hello, PFUA.
18:42:43 [Kesh]
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18:42:50 [wendy]
Meeting: PF, UA, WCAG joint meeting
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18:43:04 [wendy]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/meetings/f2fmar05.html#agn
18:43:10 [wendy]
Chair: Al
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Scribe: Wendy
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18:46:33 [Ryladog]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/roadmap/
18:46:41 [wendy]
m3m: concept of the roadmap (rich will fill in details later) - ensure that using w3c technologies and elsewhere will have a coherent vision of how to be accessible when all put together.
18:46:53 [wendy]
m3m: the doc lays out how the techs will work together.
18:47:24 [wendy]
m3m: from UA, having reviewed XHTML 2.0 w/the perspective of getting it to work between UAs and asst techs, the roadmap is the next logical step.
18:47:59 [wendy]
m3m: interested in working with PF. PF works with spec writers and UA works with browser developers.
18:48:07 [wendy]
m3m: want to represent the view of the ppl who will be implementing.
18:48:21 [wendy]
m3m: want to ensure that years down the road, we are all working from the same playbook.
18:48:33 [wendy]
m3m: want to get in front of what will happen over the next 5 years.
18:49:15 [wendy]
mc (michael cooper)
18:49:33 [wendy]
mc: wcag WG is working on techniques. today the techniques task force is meeting.
18:49:50 [wendy]
mc: we interpret how to apply the guidelines to particular technologies. working on html, css, scripting.
18:50:02 [wendy]
mc: also creating general techniques that describe things common to all techs.
18:50:49 [wendy]
mc: have identified several issues. 1. how handle issue of scripting where could take 2 approaches to make it accessible. provide functional alt or ensure that the action produced by script are accessible.
18:50:58 [wendy]
mc: w/out debates about if that is possible, those are 2 approaches.
18:51:19 [wendy]
mc: one depends on the browser's support of scripts the other assumes scripts are not supported (or can't be rendered accessiblty and requires fallback)
18:51:48 [wendy]
mc: 2. baseline - as we write guidelines/techniques what are we assuming is supported by user agents?
18:52:09 [wendy]
mc: if we have to assume that the UA doesnt' support then we may need to provide fallbacks.
18:52:23 [wendy]
mc: this is not desirable when many technologies could be accessible (perhaps in the future).
18:53:27 [wendy]
mc: have concept of "fallback techniques" that say, "until UA supports...the author has to do x instead"
18:53:47 [wendy]
mc: we're faced with the issue of "can we assume that user agents support things correctly" or "do we deal with the real world"
18:54:17 [wendy]
mc: even though our techniques documents are not normative, the techniques docs will need to be updated as technologies change.
18:57:07 [wendy]
mc: summarizes - we have 3 primary points:
18:57:14 [wendy]
mc: 1. our "baseline" issue
18:57:39 [wendy]
mc: 2. dealing with lack of support in all technologies, provide fallback techniques?
18:57:53 [wendy]
mc: 3. assume "real world" or "ideal world"
18:59:14 [wendy]
RRSAgent, pointer?
18:59:14 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2005/03/01-pfua-irc#T18-59-14
19:02:35 [wendy]
ag: my version of why UAWG is interested, is b/c it was an attempt to take the smallest change in how ppl prepare scripted pages that would allow the UA to meet the UAAG for the scripted widgets.
19:02:51 [wendy]
ag: w/out heavy duty processing on the script.
19:03:01 [wendy]
ag: could present through an API a model of the document and it's state.
19:04:05 [wendy]
ag: therefore, natural progression for uawg and pfwg to discuss together.
19:04:42 [wendy]
ag: wcag is working on techniques w/variety of scripts. one is sripts. roadmap changes how that's done, therefore should understand so that they can carry message to the authors.
19:04:51 [wendy]
s/sripts/scripts
19:06:22 [wendy]
rs: asst tech support apis, scripted web content doesn't do that. ATs need to know active roles of elements.
19:06:29 [wendy]
rs: (acting as active widgets)
19:06:38 [wendy]
rs: have to provide state info to the at.
19:06:52 [wendy]
rs: accessibility apis primarily see static html today.
19:06:59 [wendy]
rs: changes are not provided to teh at as we should.
19:07:22 [wendy]
rs: typically, when someone writes in javascript, will create custom widgets that don't exist in html.
19:07:54 [wendy]
rs: everyone needs to udnerstand the accessibility architecture. when an at talks to an application, they are looking at an object model using MVC architecture.
19:08:00 [wendy]
rs: the info should target the data.
19:08:17 [wendy]
rs: we used to "read tea leaves" by looking at what was drawn on the screen and reverse engineer.
19:08:26 [wendy]
rs: we want to look at the data, obj by obj.
19:08:36 [wendy]
rs: when an at talks to a component can get the info they need.
19:09:03 [wendy]
rs: this is the JFC object info: role, states, etc. (graphic outlines)
19:09:23 [wendy]
rs: doesn't mean "onmouseover" which doesn't tell me much.
19:09:52 [wendy]
rs: text needs to deal with selection, slider: value, when changes, name, parent/child relationships
19:10:02 [wendy]
rs: in the DOM, have a parent/child relationship.
19:10:07 [wendy]
rs: important to be notified of changes.
19:10:18 [wendy]
rs: e.g., tree - need to know when expanded.
19:11:25 [wendy]
rs: javascript manipulates the dom, content, and style and is event driven.
19:12:11 [wendy]
rs: after csun, happy to make these slides available. can make them available in member space for now
19:12:20 [wendy]
wac: wcag wg and uawg need it in public space.
19:12:45 [wendy]
rs: basic example - use a table for layout.
19:12:59 [Michael]
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19:13:01 [wendy]
rs: accessibility is "hardcoded" when dealing w/html
19:13:23 [wendy]
rs: divs/spans are flexible, but don't have any semantics to convey to an asst tech
19:13:36 [wendy]
rs: no data w/a div
19:13:44 [wendy]
rs: should be able to allow the asst tech to map info to an api
19:14:23 [wendy]
rs: how do we fix the problem? start w/xhtml 1.0 and use namespaces to extend.
19:14:30 [wendy]
rs: what the html wg has done: added a role attribute
19:14:43 [wendy]
rs: 2. starting role/state taxonomy in the PFWG
19:14:56 [wendy]
rs: it will create a class hierachy of the objects we want t ouse.
19:15:00 [wendy]
rs: not new stuff, but using rdf
19:15:08 [wendy]
rs: using moz firefox for implementation.
19:15:28 [wendy]
rs: could add a plug-in to IE
19:15:42 [wendy]
rs: info is available through the DOM. UAAG requires access to the DOM.
19:16:06 [wendy]
rs: need at vendor support. have doug on the call who's been working with the team for window eyes to read firefox.
19:16:21 [wendy]
rs: important when talk about techs for wcag. need to create reusable widgets.
19:17:03 [wendy]
rs: tooling - it's not like running a checker on a web page, need to test the components w/asst tech. auth tool play important role. widgets need to be inc into the tools.
19:17:33 [wendy]
rs: gap analysis - will focus on the key items and how they map to accessibility api.
19:18:23 [wendy]
rs: much of this done by ua by default. major missing piece: role/state. also, only active elements were form elements and anchors.
19:19:40 [wendy]
rs: IE and tabindex - (WebForms group will implement) according to chart:
19:19:55 [wendy]
not present, <0, 0, >0....(see rich's slides)
19:20:24 [wendy]
rs: make use of role attribute to borrow role attribute from xhtml 2 (in xhtml 1)
19:20:31 [wendy]
rs: becomes a link to the class in rdf
19:20:50 [wendy]
rs: w/in each widget, can describe how to map. becomes self-documenting.
19:21:04 [wendy]
rs: like design patterns. by using rdf you build knowledge into the content.
19:21:32 [wendy]
rs: if you don't havfe that mapping, can still get the info.
19:21:39 [wendy]
rs: role can also be applied to other types of content, like svg.
19:21:56 [wendy]
rs: may want to create taxonomies w/in diagrams.
19:22:02 [wendy]
rs: becomes platform independent
19:22:12 [wendy]
pk: a site can define custom roles?
19:22:30 [wendy]
rs: in taxonomy will say "x is similar to y" and the asst tech will have some idea of what to do.
19:22:50 [wendy]
scribe: kerstin
19:23:11 [Kesh]
rs: we're going to make sure we have the platform acc api
19:23:21 [wendy]
scribe: kesh
19:23:51 [Kesh]
rs: rish shows an example in his slides of namespaces -- see slides (URI will be provided post-meeting).
19:24:29 [Kesh]
rs: here is an example in flash, stock information, complex charting
19:24:54 [Kesh]
rs: role taxonomy, rdf mapping, building in semantics about all of this
19:25:15 [Kesh]
rs: it has states of active, visible, etc.., these are all acc states
19:25:37 [Kesh]
rs: this is just an example -- it could be a parent/child ..
19:26:00 [Kesh]
peter korn -- activity map looks like it's the container of all those dials ....
19:26:53 [Kesh]
al: after the break, we get to ask questions and talk about issues -- let's just lay the background
19:27:20 [Kesh]
rs: the other part is, skip-to-main-content issue: what we need to do is set metadata in the doc to find out where this info is
19:27:45 [Kesh]
xhtml 2: where is the main content, where is the nav bar, banner, note, footer, etc -- standard rols attributes
19:28:01 [Kesh]
rs: why is this important?
19:28:27 [Kesh]
questions from the crowd ....
19:28:59 [Kesh]
rs: I can use the same keyboard command to get to the same content on any webpage
19:29:08 [Kesh]
rs: that's device independence
19:29:23 [Kesh]
pk: how to map taxonomy to the button on the handheld?
19:29:47 [Kesh]
rs: that would be agood thing to have -- the other thing that could happen is the browser could pick that up
19:30:08 [wendy]
agenda+ state as related to navigation landmarks
19:30:33 [wendy]
agenda+ is the contains relationship parent/child
19:30:50 [wendy]
agenda+ extensibility of role
19:31:07 [Kesh]
rs: the next part is: states are not part of html 1.x
19:31:33 [Kesh]
slide #15:
19:32:08 [Kesh]
rs: you can set the focus progrmatically, but you don't want to be responsible for it
19:32:53 [Kesh]
js: is this msaa of the future, too?
19:32:57 [Kesh]
rs: yest.
19:33:17 [Kesh]
khs: is this a wai sanctioned acc api?
19:33:28 [Kesh]
al: it's not unique
19:34:32 [Kesh]
khs: what would the impact be of not having css?
19:34:44 [Kesh]
aL: the info is flowing the other way ...
19:35:06 [Kesh]
rs: the other thing we are working on now, we need to be able to know what actions people want to perform
19:35:45 [Kesh]
scribe = matt
19:36:45 [mcmay]
rs: XForms. We're putting that into Firefox, expect it to be fully interoperable with Firefox. XForms has a standard set of events (validate, recalculate, etc.), so JavaScript is not needed to do that.
19:36:57 [mcmay]
rs: I can expose that information to the AT, and now have real interaction with the doc.
19:37:10 [Michael]
scribe: mcmay
19:37:26 [mcmay]
rs: Also a model for whether an item is selected, etc. UA can do the mapping automatically.
19:37:41 [mcmay]
rs: Built-in relations for group, label, help, hint.
19:37:51 [mcmay]
rs: Uses DOMActivate for device independence.
19:38:12 [mcmay]
rs: Can come from voice recognition, for example, so don't need to be tied to keyboard.
19:38:35 [mcmay]
rs: Can also understand semantics of e.g. date, so AT can read it properly to the user.
19:39:16 [mcmay]
rs: XHTML 2 is based on declarative markup. Role attribute is built in. Navigation lists can be used with role.
19:39:42 [mcmay]
rs: Current accesskey attribute is broken. It's device-dependent. Doesn't have a description attached. We don't know whether we're giving focus, activating, etc.
19:40:37 [mcmay]
rs: We have made this an element within the document. Can put a title on it as description. For backward compatibility, you can attach a key to it. But this can be stripped out by the UA.
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19:41:16 [mcmay]
rs: We can specify navigation based on role.
19:41:45 [mcmay]
rs: XForms is built-in without a namespace. You can tie the elements directly to the model. Also introduced nextFocus, and can use it to skip navigation.
19:42:24 [joeclark]
q+
19:42:26 [wendy]
agenda+ nextfocus. also need prevfocus? (slide 17)
19:42:56 [mcmay]
rs: Have to put metadata into the content. Moving forward, have to make things easier for the page author, and that means building things like XForms into the technology.
19:43:18 [mcmay]
rs: We can borrow from XHTML 2's features today, even if it's not quickly adopted.
19:43:27 [mcmay]
pk: We can build this into open-source dev tools.
19:45:24 [Rotan]
Next/Prev, reminds me of this: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/NOTE-di-atdi-20040218/#navGenNextPrevious
19:45:51 [Kesh]
taking a break for 5-10 minutes
19:52:41 [Al]
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we are back from break
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19:56:39 [JRG]
Lisa: Adaptive content and where adapative content is going
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19:57:14 [JRG]
One level I want to give an overview and give specific examples
19:57:22 [ken]
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Reason behind adaptive content, and want to provide everyone access to adaptive content
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19:57:59 [JRG]
One problem is barriers to understanding and people don's want to change their practices
19:58:05 [JRG]
This most difficult
19:58:26 [JRG]
Getting content for everyone, including cultural, cognitive and disability factors
19:58:40 [JRG]
Using sematics in RDF to allow for adaptove content
19:58:51 [JRG]
!st we need to understand whats on a page
19:59:10 [JRG]
Dream of self describing content
19:59:56 [JRG]
At a later time someone provides an interpreter to provide information to a different audience
20:00:17 [JRG]
Ideally building that accessibility is represented by rich's presentation
20:00:24 [JRG]
Three step:
20:00:29 [JRG]
Capture content
20:00:35 [JRG]
Create knowledge model
20:00:40 [JRG]
Use the knowledge
20:01:08 [JRG]
At the moment to capture the knowledge is to use existing models, html is weak
20:01:27 [JRG]
Ultimately we want knowledge in the authoring tools
20:01:41 [Al]
FYI: we will have a hard stop, brief break for WCAG Techniques to exit at 3:30.
20:02:09 [JRG]
Every time you add a layer to a graphic you could title it
20:02:20 [JRG]
Second stage is encoding the knowledge
20:02:54 [JRG]
The semantic web is the next generation of XML, which will add information about content
20:03:38 [JRG]
Software can treat the knowledge intelligently and can use the information more intelligently
20:03:46 [JRG]
Example:
20:04:09 [JRG]
See slide, interactivy model
20:04:39 [JRG]
You have state, actions and conditions that can effect each other
20:05:06 [JRG]
Two types of terms: predicates, symbolized by lines in the diagram
20:05:41 [JRG]
Subjects and documents are points in an xml document or rdf descriptions
20:06:02 [JRG]
Predicates define relationships between content
20:06:06 [JRG]
Content:
20:06:40 [JRG]
Data fields and relationships
20:07:01 [JRG]
Roles can be defined in these kinds of models
20:07:31 [JRG]
Web designers can define their own roles or a community like bloggers can define roles like bloggers
20:07:36 [joeclark]
q?
20:07:54 [wendy]
agenda+ ease of which ppl can add new roles
20:08:11 [JRG]
Peter: My conern is with the ease people can add new roles, roles have no meanings if they cannot be presented intelligently to th euser
20:08:55 [JRG]
We have mechanisms to customize and create new intellifgence, but we do not have "kind of like" features
20:09:27 [JRG]
I am not saying that we can't innovate, but AT and mainstream people must cooperate
20:09:43 [JRG]
AG: We will discuss this, but not right this minute
20:10:11 [JRG]
Lisa: In the technology of encoding we need to address this concern
20:10:18 [JRG]
We need self describing
20:10:38 [JRG]
We need it to be extenable and that it can evolve as web technologies change
20:11:02 [JRG]
How do roles effect different users
20:11:35 [JRG]
How do we use the knowledge (self describing content)
20:11:41 [JRG]
One example is accesskeys
20:11:56 [JRG]
You have a pice of text that says take me to the site map
20:12:12 [JRG]
We have a piece of knowledge that the link goes to a site map
20:12:22 [JRG]
We can do tons of stuff with this
20:12:49 [JRG]
All users now can use Alt-S to go to the site
20:13:02 [JRG]
What about a russian, they might want Alt-K
20:13:23 [JRG]
The content author doesn't need to change anything, just a different interpretation
20:14:04 [JRG]
What about someone with a learning disability, I want an icon of the site map and I want it on the top right hand corner, this can be dome with XSL.
20:14:17 [JRG]
What burden am I putting on the author.
20:14:37 [JRG]
A lot less, since the author doesn't have to put in the individual content
20:14:49 [JRG]
They also may have content coming from several sources
20:15:07 [JRG]
They can have one line of information can now be turned into a role
20:16:03 [JRG]
What about abbreviation like WCAG, you can now have that linked to information about WCAG
20:16:38 [JRG]
Abbreviations can have knowledge to generate links if the user wants them
20:16:53 [JRG]
Slide on inaccessible content.
20:17:42 [JRG]
Lisa shows a document map that could be generated by using role information from the full document, creating a new interface slected by the user, not the author
20:18:15 [JRG]
You can create common interfaces that authors can exploit
20:18:27 [JRG]
Another use of RDF...
20:19:05 [JRG]
AG: Where is the dynamic content going
20:19:55 [JRG]
Rhys: The device independent working group is working how do we deliver interfaces to different types of technologies
20:20:07 [JRG]
We also need to know about content and the device
20:20:12 [Al]
agenda+ DI to the second level
20:20:40 [JRG]
We need to take what the author wrote and mess with it and render it on a wide variety of devices
20:20:55 [JRG]
A major isssue is how do we make this easy to author
20:21:40 [JRG]
As we move more into dynamic events, including device changes, low battery, in sun light
20:22:04 [JRG]
We have received resources from multi-modal group to deal with some of this information
20:22:38 [JRG]
There are big problems, but xhtml2 and xforms are a big step forward
20:22:47 [JRG]
New techniques
20:23:36 [JRG]
I am excited about the new taxonomies being developed here to be integrated into markup languages
20:24:09 [JRG]
Joe: IE on windows have a good implementation of tabindex=0
20:24:26 [JRG]
Within the spirit of specs
20:24:44 [JRG]
But the specs say you cannot have neg values
20:24:56 [JRG]
Rich: You can violate specs for accessibility
20:25:02 [JRG]
AG: Can we do demo
20:25:41 [JRG]
Peter: One of the things we played with is formatting menus on dynamic braille displays
20:25:56 [JRG]
An exampel of using an abstraction to create custom user interface
20:26:00 [JRG]
for braill
20:26:20 [JRG]
Rhys: We have dome some of that too
20:26:36 [JRG]
Screen turned off for demo
20:26:44 [JRG]
Screen turned back on
20:27:07 [JRG]
Rich:
20:27:23 [JRG]
We tried to do hard things for our demo
20:27:31 [JRG]
What about a spreadsheet
20:27:54 [JRG]
We have stored the information as a menu and this is translated to MSAA
20:28:00 [JRG]
We gave the menu focus
20:28:17 [JRG]
It is a heirarchical menu system
20:28:38 [JRG]
There is state information on the state of the menu items
20:28:46 [JRG]
It is all written in div and span
20:29:21 [JRG]
It is accessible as long as there is a mapping between web page and acessibility API
20:29:31 [JRG]
We don't want to tab to everything
20:29:39 [JRG]
Now we are in a spreadsheet
20:29:54 [JRG]
Peter: Can you annouce what key you are using
20:30:13 [JRG]
Rich: Moving between cells with arrow keys
20:30:23 [JRG]
It reads the cells
20:30:34 [JRG]
Johns: Can you read headers
20:30:42 [JRG]
Rich; We are working on their
20:30:55 [JRG]
We can also attech headers to style information
20:31:15 [JRG]
Joe: Some people would use lists, instead of ul and li
20:31:28 [JRG]
Joe: Technically can't have avalid page
20:31:37 [JRG]
Ric: I don't care
20:31:44 [JRG]
Joe: I assume it will still validate
20:32:07 [JRG]
Rich: DOM and HTML are not going to go back and change things
20:32:36 [JRG]
Rich: Opera and Firefox are going to support tabindex=0
20:33:07 [JRG]
Joe: headers can dfined using html table header markup
20:33:10 [JRG]
Rich: yes
20:33:24 [JRG]
Editing a cell
20:33:38 [JRG]
We can read the label, enter a new value
20:33:43 [joeclark]
technically the validator probably won't flunk it, I meant.
20:34:00 [JRG]
Changes a coupld of cells
20:34:27 [JRG]
PeterK: What is the parent
20:34:54 [JRG]
Rich: We have an edit field inside a label, that is inside of a td
20:35:16 [JRG]
Rich: this is complex spreadsheet, it is a real menu
20:35:24 [JRG]
I think this is much more usable
20:35:58 [JRG]
There is no form element
20:36:23 [JRG]
Thank you doug for working with us on this
20:36:46 [joeclark]
verified: valid file with tabindex="-1" on <a> element passes the validator.
20:36:50 [JRG]
Demo of windows magnifer with spreadsheet
20:36:54 [joeclark]
on request, I can post the file.
20:36:57 [JRG]
magnifer follows focus
20:37:45 [JRG]
Peterk: This all MSAA, right?
20:37:48 [JRG]
Rich: Yes
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20:39:41 [JRG]
Break, as WCAG people leave
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20:58:36 [Al]
agenda?
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21:08:59 [Al]
agenda+ tracking and comprehension of complex mutation events
21:13:19 [Al]
agenda+ navigation mode models ; consistency problems with tabindex and accesskey
21:15:45 [Al]
agenda+ targeting real-world vs. ideal-world legacy-how-friendly
21:17:34 [patrick]
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21:18:13 [Al]
q+ aaron
21:22:38 [Al]
ack aaron
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21:34:44 [Al]
agenda+ how to make it normative [from Gottfried]
21:38:24 [Al]
q+ Kerstin
21:38:43 [Al]
ack joeclark
21:44:19 [Al]
agenda?
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22:29:13 [Al]
meeting recessed -- PF and UA to reconvene separately on Thursday.
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23:06:24 [Al]
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23:06:47 [Al]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
23:06:47 [Zakim]
sorry, Al, I don't know what conference this is
23:06:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Al, patrick, RichS, Gottfried, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, LS
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