IRC log of dawg on 2005-02-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:33:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
18:33:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:34:04 [DanC_]
Zakim, this will be dawg
18:34:04 [Zakim]
ok, DanC_; I see SW_DAWG(TP)2:00PM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
18:34:12 [DanC_]
agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
18:34:28 [DanC_]
agenda + issue: nestedOptionals
18:34:39 [DanC_]
agenda + f2f6 proposals
18:35:44 [DanC_]
agenda + test suite maintenance
18:35:55 [DanC_]
agenda + valueTesting
18:36:02 [DanC_]
agenda + XSCH review
18:37:34 [HiroyukiS]
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18:38:55 [JacekK]
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18:45:10 [Yoshio]
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18:45:17 [Yoshio]
hi all
18:47:00 [amy]
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18:50:59 [DanC_]
Amy? I don't see OlympiaC in
18:51:05 [amy]
18:51:50 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG(TP)2:00PM has now started
18:51:52 [Zakim]
18:52:25 [amy]
C, yes, ok good
18:52:38 [amy]
18:52:39 [amy]
18:52:42 [amy]
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19:00:54 [JosD]
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19:00:57 [DanC_]
Zakim, take up agendum 1
19:00:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC_]
19:01:16 [kendall]
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19:01:21 [kendall]
we're convened
19:01:25 [kendall]
19:01:40 [kendall]
* Dan Connolly <> (W3C/MIT) : attending monday, tuesday
19:01:41 [kendall]
* Yoshio Fukushige <> (Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (MEI)) : attending monday, tuesday
19:01:44 [kendall]
* Hiroyuki Sato <> (Nippon Telegraph & Telephone Corp. (NTT)) : attending monday, tuesday
19:01:47 [kendall]
* Andy Seaborne <> (Hewlett Packard Company) : attending monday, tuesday
19:01:51 [kendall]
* Stephen Harris <> (Southampton, University of) : attending monday, tuesday
19:01:54 [kendall]
* Kendall Clark <> (Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab at the University of Maryland) : attending monday, tuesday
19:01:58 [kendall]
* Eric Prud'hommeaux <> (W3C/MIT) : attending monday, tuesday
19:02:00 [kendall]
* Jos De Roo <> (Agfa-Gevaert N. V.) : attending monday, tuesday
19:02:03 [kendall]
19:02:06 [kendall]
some observers:
19:02:14 [Yoshio]
regrets for 8th meeting
19:02:23 [DanC_]
ACTION DaveB: to consider use of xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer
19:02:37 [tlr]
Thomas Roessler
19:02:40 [kendall]
Ivan Herman, Jacek K.,
19:02:56 [DaveB]
I can dialin for a bit. But that action continues...
19:03:05 [kendall]
hi dave!
19:03:07 [ivan]
ivan has joined #dawg
19:03:10 [DanC_]
19:03:19 [kendall]
kendall has joined #dawg
19:03:47 [DaveB]
hi kendall
19:03:56 [kendall]
observer: Danny Weitzner
19:03:57 [DanC_]
Zakim, close agendum 1
19:03:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
19:03:58 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:03:59 [Zakim]
2. issue: nestedOptionals [from DanC_]
19:04:02 [DanC_]
Zakim, next agendum
19:04:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "issue: nestedOptionals" taken up [from DanC_]
19:05:21 [kendall]
[what's the latest re: nestedOptionals? latest QL draft 5.5. Been implemented and folks seem happy with it.]
19:05:56 [kendall]
SteveH has same objections. "It's existence is unacceptable."
19:06:32 [kendall]
DaveB has another proposal involving a side condition on the grammar.
19:07:10 [kendall]
DaveB suggested making it not possible to *write* nested optionals, even though they'd still be possible semantically.
19:07:55 [kendall]
SteveH fine with the DaveB proposal to "hide" nested optionals by disallowing them syntactically.
19:10:04 [kendall]
debate about the relative merits of diff implementation strategies to implement nested optionals
19:11:36 [kendall]
how much more difficult are these queries to write if you can't write nested optionals?
19:12:16 [ivan]
ivan has joined #dawg
19:15:26 [ericP]
from [[
19:15:27 [ericP]
OPTIONAL { ( ?x vcard:N ?vc )
19:15:27 [ericP]
( ?vc vcard:Given ?gname )
19:15:27 [ericP]
OPTIONAL ( ?vc vcard:Family ?fname ) }
19:15:30 [ericP]
19:16:04 [kendall]
Hmm, so we seem to agree that to write the equivalent query, you'll have to repeat some graph patterns
19:16:11 [ericP]
to [[
19:16:13 [ericP]
OPTIONAL { ( ?x vcard:N ?vc )
19:16:13 [ericP]
( ?vc vcard:Given ?gname ) }
19:16:13 [ericP]
OPTIONAL { ( ?x vcard:N ?vc )
19:16:13 [ericP]
( ?vc vcard:Given ?gname )
19:16:16 [ericP]
( ?vc vcard:Family ?fname ) }
19:16:16 [kendall]
kendall has joined #dawg
19:16:18 [ericP]
19:21:16 [Yoshio]
is it that whether lack of appearence of B in the result means the failure of B or not?
19:24:04 [kendall]
Jos suggests that in his system implementing nested optional (or just optional?) is difficult.
19:24:45 [SteveH]
just optional
19:25:44 [kendall]
debate about the value or advisability of making open or closed world assumption
19:28:25 [kendall]
i think there are unshared views about the implications of OWA
19:29:35 [kendall]
eric and jos discuss altenate implementation strategies (translating sparql into n3, then filtering results... or something)
19:32:24 [kendall]
19:32:39 [kendall]
A optional B has 2 interpretations:
19:32:47 [kendall]
1. A & (B v True)
19:32:53 [kendall]
which creates unhelpful solutions
19:33:04 [kendall]
2. A & (B v ~B)
19:33:18 [kendall]
which, if i follow, implies some closed world assumption, but works
19:33:38 [kendall]
for jos
19:34:35 [Yoshio]
so absence of B in the result means, in the 2nd interpretation, the failure of B?
19:35:04 [kendall]
danc suggests making the parts of QL that involve CWAs more explicit
19:35:17 [kendall]
ACTION: AndyS to clarify 5.4 w/r/t closed world assumption
19:35:26 [kendall]
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19:36:05 [kendall]
back to *nested* optionals
19:39:34 [Yoshio]
my concern is that the restriction on the use of the variable names is complicated...
19:42:22 [Yoshio]
I have to write
19:42:33 [Yoshio]
SELECT ?a ?b ?c
19:42:52 [Yoshio]
WHERE OPTIONAL (?a foo ?b)
19:43:07 [Yoshio]
OPTIONAL (?a bar ?c)
19:43:30 [Yoshio]
enen when all I want to know is ?a and the other sole thing
19:44:11 [SteveH]
SELECT ?a ?b OPTIONAL (?a ?p ?b) AND ?p=<foo> || ?p=<bar>
19:45:30 [AndyS]
Drop OPTIONAL (they were only there to structure the first appraoch)
19:46:01 [DanC_]
leaving... SELECT ?a ?b WHERE (?a ?p ?b) AND ?p=<foo> || ?p=<bar>
19:51:29 [Yoshio]
hmm,,, I got inclined to draw my concern back... I can't tell which OPTIONAL is met without distinguishing ?b and ?c
19:53:25 [Yoshio]
there should be many situations where I wnat to konw which
19:53:51 [kendall]
ACTION: danc resume discussion of nestedOptionals
19:54:18 [DanC_]
Zakim, close this agendum
19:54:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
19:54:19 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:54:21 [Zakim]
3. f2f6 proposals [from DanC_]
20:04:48 [DanC_]
inconclusive data
20:05:48 [DanC_]
how many to www2005? -JD +AS ~KC +YK +HS +EP +SH -DC
20:06:22 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
20:06:22 [DanC_]
inconclusive data re amsterdam, southampton, florida, bristol offers
20:06:39 [patH]
Hey, are we on the phone? What number?
20:06:40 [DanC_]
Pat, where should we meet next? 1/2 ;-)
20:06:46 [DanC_]
Zakim, passcode?
20:06:46 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3294 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), DanC_
20:07:16 [Zakim]
20:07:43 [Yoshio]
WWW2005 is 10-14 May
20:08:22 [DanC_]
www2005 ~-PH
20:09:57 [Yoshio]
oh Dan is NOT coming... we should give up the hosting idea then...
20:09:59 [DanC_]
Zakim, agenda?
20:09:59 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
20:10:00 [Zakim]
3. f2f6 proposals [from DanC_]
20:10:01 [Zakim]
4. test suite maintenance [from DanC_]
20:10:02 [Zakim]
5. valueTesting [from DanC_]
20:10:04 [Zakim]
6. XSCH review [from DanC_]
20:10:23 [DanC_]
(then resume tomorrow with other stuff)
20:11:28 [DanC_]
Zakim, next agendum
20:11:28 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "f2f6 proposals" taken up [from DanC_]
20:11:34 [DanC_]
Zakim, close item 3
20:11:34 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
20:11:35 [kendall]
A one day meeting before (or after?) WWW05 got some interest.
20:11:35 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:11:37 [Zakim]
4. test suite maintenance [from DanC_]
20:11:41 [DanC_]
Zakim, take up agendum 4
20:11:41 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC_]
20:12:13 [kendall]
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20:13:55 [DanC_]
SELECT ?PG WHERE ?PG =~ "". # pls add this test case
20:14:08 [kendall]
20:14:37 [DanC_]
SELECT ?PG WHERE ?PG dc:creator ?anybody AND ?PG =~ "". # pls add this test case
20:14:54 [DanC_]
should NOT match { <"> dc:creator "anybody" }
20:15:33 [kendall]
steve's action hereabouts continued
20:15:57 [kendall]
(daveb's action re: xsi:datatype also continued earlier, in case that didn't get scribed)
20:16:04 [AndyS]
Ivan -
20:16:23 [Yoshio]
how about (?u stringmatches: "*) (?PG log;uri ?u)
20:17:50 [kendall]
(continued: ACTION: SteveH to to propose tests for str() and =~)
20:18:11 [kendall]
ACTION: SteveH buy Andy a beer!
20:18:33 [tlr]
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20:19:53 [AndyS]
GRAPH tests:*.rq
20:20:03 [kendall]
has PatH swapped in the new named graph stuff?
20:20:23 [AndyS]
20:20:33 [kendall]
(keyword renaming... -sigh-)
20:22:39 [DanC_]
(PatH finds the relevant tests, with andy's help)
20:23:33 [kendall]
DanC withdraws suggesting formal defintions for SOURCE
20:24:00 [DanC_]
(break 'till 3:40p Boston)
20:24:00 [Zakim]
20:39:12 [DanC_]
agenda + SPARQL punctuation syntax (turtle, N3, ...)
20:40:34 [DanC_]
20:41:47 [timbl]
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20:42:06 [ericP]
ping pat
20:42:45 [patH]
hi guys. We back?
20:42:46 [RRSAgent]
20:42:50 [ericP]
20:43:00 [Zakim]
20:43:20 [ericP]
can you hear dan well (enough)?
20:43:42 [patH]
just about.
20:44:47 [ericP]
[mutterings while looking for a particuarl test]
20:44:50 [AndyS]
20:47:32 [timbl]
"requires a ton of my tools to build it"
20:48:46 [ericP]
ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page
20:49:40 [DanC_]
Zakim, next agendum
20:49:40 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "valueTesting" taken up [from DanC_]
20:53:05 [ericP]
walking through
20:54:25 [ericP]
evaluated against
20:54:35 [timbl]
20:54:41 [timbl]
is the directory
20:54:44 [ericP]
evaluated against
20:55:45 [ericP]
ivan: the parsers i use read "1" as 1
20:57:51 [ericP]
[kendall warns that RDF/XML treatment of datatypes is broken]
20:58:41 [ericP]
walking through
20:59:50 [patH]
Pat protests that it may be ugly, but its not broken.
21:00:09 [kendall]
21:00:23 [kendall]
i warned that *rdflib* has no real typed literal support -- v. different issue
21:00:34 [ericP]
equivlence test that can bind to one of several operators
21:00:41 [ericP]
(answering yoshio)
21:01:22 [patH]
Echo Yoshio. We seem to be using '=' for several differnt things.
21:02:01 [ericP]
21:02:01 [DanC_]
SELECT ... AND ?p = dc1:title || ?p = dc2:title
21:02:09 [Yoshio]
is it different from "=="?
21:02:10 [DanC_]
also, users expect 1 = 1.0
21:02:23 [ericP]
XPath overloading of the operators defined in
21:03:12 [DanC_]
ack timbl
21:03:22 [timbl]
q+ to suggest for every = test case to make a test case with graph match
21:04:15 [timbl]
21:04:49 [ericP]
tim: re-use the investment in value equiv test cases by copying them to graph test cases
21:05:10 [ericP]
21:05:11 [ericP]
(?x1 :p ?v1 )
21:05:11 [ericP]
(?x2 :p ?v2 )
21:05:11 [ericP]
AND ?v1 = ?v2
21:05:16 [ericP]
goes to
21:05:27 [ericP]
(?x1 :p ?v)
21:05:27 [patH]
+q about entailing.
21:05:39 [ericP]
(?x2 :p ?v)
21:05:41 [ericP]
21:05:52 [Yoshio]
q+ to ask if it is not "==" we are talikng about
21:06:11 [patH]
21:06:38 [ericP]
ACTION: Andy to add the above graph test cases
21:06:41 [DanC_]
ack yoshio
21:06:41 [Zakim]
Yoshio, you wanted to ask if it is not "==" we are talikng about
21:13:39 [DanC_]
SELECT ... WHERE (?exp :results ?x. ?exp2 :results ?y) AND ?x != ?y #@@@
21:13:42 [ericP]
DanC: we don't have a spec that exactly matches the editor's understanding (cf. the == and eq in section 11)
21:14:13 [AndyS]
SELECT ... WHERE (?exp :results ?x) (?exp2 :results ?y) AND ?x != ?y
21:14:14 [DanC_]
against { exp1 result "1/1"^^rational. exp2 result "2/2"^^rational)
21:15:19 [DanC_]
ericp: the != will fail.
21:15:20 [DanC_]
timbl: good
21:15:56 [DanC_]
andys: or is it fn:not(?x = ?y) ?
21:17:15 [ericP]
21:17:31 [ericP]
[[ Expressions generating errors cause the solution to be rejected (not to match). ]]
21:19:27 [DanC_]
Andy convinces DanC (and EricP? and others?) that the != will turn into not( ... = ...) and yield true
21:20:27 [ericP]
SteveH: propose "when you call the = op on datatypes that you don't understand, it fails"
21:21:26 [DanC_]
ack path
21:22:47 [timbl]
q+ to mention need for warning levels when people have asked weird things such as type mismatches, e.g. comparing "wednesday" = 2.
21:22:50 [timbl]
21:22:52 [DanC_]
ack jos
21:25:37 [timbl]
q+ to suggest a appendix of places where the semantics of the operator differ from the F&O spec.
21:25:50 [DanC_]
21:26:46 [ericP]
ammend SteveH's proposal with first checking if the two are literally the same and the same integer
21:27:01 [ericP]
21:27:03 [DanC_]
REQUEST FOR TESTCASE: input data has "abc"^^integer
21:28:42 [DanC_]
"10"^^byte = "10"^^integer?
21:29:51 [DanC_]
"10"^^long = "10"^^integer
21:29:52 [DanC_]
21:30:33 [DanC_]
"10"^^nonnegative = "10"^^integer?
21:30:45 [DanC_]
21:32:32 [DanC_]
AndyS: for example, OWL uses nonnegativeinteger for cardianlity constraints
21:32:37 [DanC_]
EricP seems convinced
21:32:42 [ericP]
sadly so
21:33:06 [ivan]
21:33:36 [DanC_]
ACTION EricP: propose to close valueTesting (bonus points for test cases, to EricP or others)
21:34:57 [DanC_]
21:37:14 [DanC_]
Zakim, next agendum
21:37:14 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "XSCH review" taken up [from DanC_]
21:37:52 [DanC_]
21:38:11 [ericP]
jacek: i would expect a W3C RDF query language to support all the XML schema datatypes and all of OWL
21:38:26 [ericP]
patH: what does it mean to "support"?
21:39:29 [ericP]
DanC: this sounds like requirements. take up in hallway discussion?
21:41:21 [SteveH]
DaveB, observer, from DERI
21:41:48 [DaveB]
I laughed when I read supporting all XSD and all owl.
21:42:12 [SteveH]
yes, "laughed" ;)
21:50:57 [DanC_]
Zakim, take up agendum 6
21:50:57 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "XSCH review" taken up [from DanC_]
21:51:03 [patH]
Hey, Im listening to a lovely exposition here.
21:51:20 [kendall]
kendall has joined #dawg
21:52:29 [DanC_]
ericp's action is withdrawn
21:52:42 [DanC_]
Zakim, next agendum
21:52:42 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "SPARQL punctuation syntax (turtle, N3, ...)" taken up [from DanC_]
21:53:42 [DanC_]
DanC: since this wasn't on the agenda at T-2 weeks, I won't put any questions formally
21:57:34 [patH]
q+ what exactly is meant here by N3? Is it just hte basic style of graph syntax used in N3?
21:58:38 [DanC_]
EricP: but I don't argue to use { ... } as a term
21:59:19 [patH]
the phone is dropping out very freqently. Can yall turn up the mike?
21:59:34 [DanC_]
ack path
21:59:47 [ivan]
21:59:55 [DanC_]
see examples from
22:00:05 [ivan]
22:00:14 [ericP]
turtle+variabels = turtle (with ',' and ';') + vars (eg ?x)
22:00:18 [timbl]
22:00:22 [timbl]
22:01:17 [patH]
Im happy with the N3 style as descrbed there. BUt Im also happy with turtle style.
22:02:11 [kendall]
well, we've liberally changed keywords at just about every f2f, including helsinki, and that was only a month ago. :>
22:02:25 [patH]
22:02:39 [patH]
Don't we all, Zakim
22:02:46 [kendall]
hey! :>
22:02:57 [DanC_]
timbl: for example S
22:03:11 [patH]
example S??
22:03:24 [DanC_]
timbl: for example SELECT ?who WHERE ?who :brother [ in Army ], :mother [ in Navy].
22:04:42 [kendall]
a bnode in a graph pattern is == to an unused variable in a select or construct clause
22:04:45 [DanC_]
andy: is that like ... ?who :brother ?notUsedElsewhere1. ?notUsedElsewhere1 in Army ...
22:04:45 [DanC_]
22:04:59 [kendall]
s/==/equivalent to/
22:05:22 [DanC_]
Jos: in turtle, one can write :bob :brothers ( :pete :sam).
22:05:30 [ericP]
turtle+variabels = turtle (with ',' and ';' and '()') + vars (eg ?x)
22:06:03 [DanC_]
... which suggests SELECT ?who WHERE ?who :borthers (:pete :sam).
22:06:40 [timbl]
; , . () [] ?x
22:07:21 [patH]
that's a pretty god transcription of what it sounds like on the phone, Tim
22:07:22 [JosD]
see also
22:08:28 [ericP]
Yoshio, widely distributed, I believe the only implementations are from AndyS, DaveB and myself.
22:08:46 [DanC_]
SteveH: my users are mostly folks dumping databases into RDF/XML
22:08:46 [ericP]
and perhaps Ivan
22:09:04 [DanC_]
SteveH: I support turtle input and noone uses it
22:11:32 [patH]
DO we have to choose one?
22:11:57 [kendall]
we don't if/when we have an xml exchange syntax for sparql
22:12:14 [kendall]
just map any old surface/user syntax into it, and send *that* to the server
22:14:30 [patH]
That makes sense, indeed. XML to the rescue once again?
22:15:02 [kendall]
well, you can then do neato schema web services stuff. that's gonna help adoption in areas where SW has little presently.
22:15:04 [AndyS]
We need at least one common syntax for encoding into a protocol for web use
22:17:15 [patH]
Maybe the issue is how the results get sent back. We need an XML for that too.
22:17:38 [kendall]
we have one for that, pat :>
22:18:38 [patH]
Just testing.
22:19:37 [patH]
I have to leave shortly. Don't do anything serious while Im gone.
22:19:44 [kendall]
22:25:45 [timbl]
22:26:04 [timbl]
qname in n3.n3
22:27:40 [AndyS]
?? Dot is UTF-8 002E
22:27:58 [Yoshio]
doesn't "." in qname in N3 mean a path expression?
22:28:27 [patH]
is that really ((...)?:)?... ?? SO the : is optional?
22:30:24 [Yoshio]
q+ to ask if "." in qname in N3 means a path expression
22:31:21 [DanC_]
WHERE { GRAPH ?g { ?g dc:source myPartOfUriSpace:foo.rdf } } # sh, ar like this
22:32:23 [Yoshio]
22:33:07 [patH]
22:33:19 [Zakim]
22:35:20 [timbl]
.BadSyntax: Line 5 of <file:/devel/WWW/2000/10/swap/test/syntax/trailing-dot-in-qname.n3>: Bad syntax (expected directive or statement) at ^ in:
22:35:23 [timbl]
" <>.
22:35:25 [timbl]
foo:fred foo:loves foo:sushi. ^.
22:36:28 [timbl]
Bad syntax (EOF found in middle of path syntax) at ^ in:
22:36:29 [timbl]
"# DAWG meeting 2005-2-28
22:36:29 [timbl]
22:36:29 [timbl]
@prefix foo: <>.
22:36:30 [timbl]
foo:fred foo:loves .
22:36:32 [timbl]
22:38:20 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, OlympiaC, in SW_DAWG(TP)2:00PM
22:38:22 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG(TP)2:00PM has ended
22:38:24 [Zakim]
Attendees were OlympiaC, PatH
22:58:33 [timbl]
WHERE joe age [ > 5 ]
22:58:49 [timbl]
WHERE { joe age [ > 5 ] }
23:00:57 [DanC_]
23:03:16 [DanC_]
ACTION EricP: propose results of N3 syntax discussion to DAWG
23:03:21 [DanC_]
(based on mail from danc)
23:04:05 [DanC_]
RECESS 'till 8:30am, with ericp in the scribe
23:13:55 [DanC_]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:13:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC_
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