15:57:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
15:57:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/02/23-swbp-irc
15:57:59 <Ralph> Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF
15:58:23 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Feb/0017.html
15:58:29 <Ralph> Chair: Ben Adida
15:59:00 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swbp
15:59:55 <Ralph> Regrets: Mark Birbeck, Jeremy Carroll
16:01:36 <Ralph> phooey
16:01:46 <Ralph> conf code overlap
16:01:59 <Ralph> I see
16:02:29 <Zakim> SW_BPD(html)11:00AM has now started
16:02:32 <Ralph> fixed
16:02:34 <DanC> DanC has joined #swbp
16:02:36 <Zakim> +Ralph
16:02:40 <Zakim> +Dom
16:02:51 <Zakim> +DanC
16:03:33 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: RDF/XHTML 23 Feb http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/
16:04:17 <DanC> agenda?
16:04:20 <DanC> agenda + status of RDF/A
16:04:23 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
16:04:26 <DanC> agenda + GRDDL
16:04:36 <DanC> agenda -2
16:04:37 <DanC> agenda -1
16:04:47 <DanC> agenda + status of RDF/A [Ben_Adida]
16:04:54 <DanC> agenda + GRDDL [Ben_Adida]
16:04:58 <DanC> agenda + TAG update
16:05:07 <DanC> agenda + TP Prep
16:05:17 <benadida> benadida has joined #swbp
16:05:24 <Ralph> zakim, who's here?
16:05:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, Dom, DanC, Ben_Adida
16:05:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see benadida, DanC, Zakim, RRSAgent, dom, Ralph
16:05:35 <DanC> Regrets: JeremyC, MarkB
16:05:51 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
16:05:51 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:05:53 <Zakim> 1. status of RDF/A [from Ben_Adida via DanC]
16:05:55 <Zakim> 2. GRDDL [from Ben_Adida via DanC]
16:05:56 <Zakim> 3. TAG update [from DanC]
16:05:57 <Zakim> 4. TP Prep [from DanC]
16:06:25 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
16:06:25 <Zakim> agendum 1. "status of RDF/A" taken up [from Ben_Adida via DanC]
16:06:45 <Ralph> Ben: the last official word about RDF/A was at the W3C AC meeting the start of December
16:07:11 <Ralph> ... according to Steven Pemberton, the XHTML 2.0 Last Call WD is dependent upon getting RDF/A into the WD
16:08:28 <Ralph> DanC: WGs are supposed to publish something every 3 months and the HTML WG is past that time
16:09:24 <DanC> (hmm... roadmap update? nope. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml-roadmap/ $Date: 2005/02/23 17:13:44 $ )
16:11:08 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Nov/0006.html Feedback from SWBPD Working Group on RDF/XHTML Ben Adida (Monday, 1 November)
16:11:08 <Ralph> zakim, next agendum
16:11:08 <Zakim> agendum 2. "GRDDL" taken up [from Ben_Adida]
16:12:04 <Ralph> Ben: should the RDFHTML TF take up GRDDL?
16:12:13 <Ralph> DanC: yes!  I am shopping this around to various communities
16:12:30 <Ralph> ... specific customers include RDDL
16:13:21 <Ralph> -> http://www.rddl.org/ Resource Directory Description Language
16:13:34 <Ralph> DanC: RDDL uses XML and XLink
16:13:48 <Ralph> ... introduces terms 'nature' and 'purpose'
16:14:23 <Ralph> ... DTD is a related resource; RDDL would say 'has nature DTD'
16:14:53 <Ralph> ... natures are like rdf Classes, purposes are like rdf Properties
16:15:57 <Ralph> ... Henry Thompson, editor of XML Schema spec, responsible for the W3C XML Schema validation service, has added RDDL support to the validation service
16:16:20 <Ralph> ... so the W3C XML Schema validator will follow pointers from namespace documents using RDDL
16:16:38 <Ralph> ... this makes RDDL a useful case for GRDDL
16:16:55 <Ralph> ... there exist transformations from RDDL to RDF
16:17:15 <Ralph> ... Henry has swapped this in in the context of TAG discussions
16:17:45 <Ralph> Dom: GRDDL is currently published as a Coordination Group Note
16:18:13 <DanC> (er... RDDL was one of N)
16:18:13 <Ralph> ... one goal for taking GRDDL into the RDFHTML TF is to give it more standing
16:19:02 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/NOTE-grddl-20040413/ Gleaning Resource Descriptions from Dialects of Languages (GRDDL)
16:19:23 <Ralph> DanC: unclear if "CG Note" status is enough standing for the RDDL community
16:20:57 <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2003/g/cc/demo.html  Creative Commons GRDDL story / demonstration Eric Miller, C. M. Sperberg-McQueen 15 October 2004, rev. 2 February 2005 (in progress)
16:22:24 <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2003/g/talk2/ Integrating Data from Multiple XML Schemas with GRDDL and RDF (slides, by DanC, in progress)
16:22:50 <Ralph> DanC: (continuing on applications)... trackback
16:23:16 <Ralph> ... trackback has an RDF idiom
16:23:22 <Ralph> ... uses RDF in XML comments
16:23:38 <Ralph> ... would be nice to take the comment markup out and use XSLT
16:24:29 <Ralph> ... for these users, making the containing document be XML is apparently too high a barrier
16:24:56 <TomSaywer> boy... trackback in wordpress with GRDDL... fun fun fun!
16:25:44 <Ralph> ... also SHOE community
16:26:15 <Ralph> ... really, SHOE/DAML/etc.
16:26:27 <Ralph> ... some DAML users are still out there
16:27:14 <Ralph> ... Creative Commons
16:27:27 <DanC> (and FOAF? DOAP? DOML?)
16:27:35 <Ralph> Ben: most Creative Commons uses are Dublin Core with some additional properties
16:27:53 <Ralph> ... but most people will not change the profile attribute in the document head
16:28:35 <Ralph> Ralph: Eric Miller and Michael Sperberg-McQueen are working on a proposal that would permit the GRDDL profile to be named in the XML Schema
16:28:42 <Ralph> ... that still doesn't cover the trackback case
16:28:52 <Ralph> Dom: another option is an HTTP header
16:28:57 <DanC> (hmm... are there wordpress plug-ins for creative commons? Joe Lambda's blog could model all this cool stuff)
16:29:27 <Ralph> ... also could recommend to implementors of GRDDL processors to implement some default behaviors for given doctypes
16:29:45 <DanC> (guerrilla standardization ;-)
16:30:19 <Ralph> Dom: e.g. recommend to GRDDL implementors to apply certain transforms automatically to XML pages
16:30:36 <Ralph> Ben: like finding rel='license'
16:30:42 <Ralph> DanC: I won't be party to that
16:30:54 <Ralph> Ralph: yeah, ugh
16:33:44 <Ralph> Ben: what about proposing to the WG to publish GRDDL as a WG Note?
16:34:29 <Ralph> DanC: who would benefit from this?  Not clear that the RDDL community feels strongly that the current status is insufficient.
16:35:03 <Ralph> Dom: there is some work that I as editor would like to do to the spec
16:35:49 <Ralph> ... and if it is republished, I think it should be as a WG document (e.g. WG Working Draft), not as a CG document
16:36:19 <Ralph> Ben: Recommendation status would cement this approach as more than "just a patch"
16:39:17 <DanC> agenda + GRDDL test suite (at least FYI)
16:39:24 <Ralph> Ralph: perhaps a formal WG Working Draft is a necessary step to put, e.g. the Dublin Core community, on notice to give formal feedback
16:39:39 <DanC> agenda + XTech milestone
16:39:49 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph query Tom Baker about DCMI interest in GRDDL as a solution
16:40:27 <Ralph> Ralph: I support bringing GRDDL into the WG
16:40:43 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Feb/0053.html [ALL] IMPORTANT: ftf preparations and agenda outline
16:41:56 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 4
16:41:56 <Zakim> agendum 4. "TP Prep" taken up [from DanC]
16:42:12 <DanC> Ben: hmm... I have a conflict with that time on Thu... any flexibility? I'll look into it
16:42:13 <Ralph> Ben: I have a conflict with the 1400-1530 Thursday f2f slot
16:44:38 <Ralph> DanC: the WG could discuss GRDDL outside of the HTML WG joint discussion but it would be nice to have them present
16:45:01 <dom> Ralph: what input do you expect from the HTML WG on GRDDL?
16:45:08 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben ask Mark and Steven for documents that should be reviewed prior to our f2f
16:45:13 <dom> DanC: e.g. whether there is enough space in this town
16:45:29 <DanC> agenda?
16:45:31 <dom> Dom: note that RDF/A is technically a subset of GRDDL
16:45:41 <DanC> Zakim, close item 2
16:45:41 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
16:45:42 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:45:44 <Zakim> 3. TAG update [from DanC]
16:45:47 <DanC> Zakim, close item 4
16:45:47 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
16:45:47 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:45:48 <Zakim> 3. TAG update [from DanC]
16:45:54 <DanC> Zakim, close item 3
16:45:54 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
16:45:55 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:45:57 <Zakim> 5. GRDDL test suite (at least FYI) [from DanC]
16:46:25 <Ralph> zakim, take up agendum 5
16:46:25 <Zakim> agendum 5. "GRDDL test suite (at least FYI)" taken up [from DanC]
16:46:40 <Ralph> Dan: Dom has done some work on a test suite
16:46:57 <Ralph> ... this would be particularly important for REC-track work
16:47:10 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Feb/0005.html Start of a GRDDL Test Suite Dominique Hazaël-Massieux (Wednesday, 2 February)
16:47:47 <DanC> -> http://www.xtech-conference.org/ XTech
16:48:05 <Ralph> DanC: Dom's proposal to talk about GRDDL at XTech was accepted
16:48:37 <DanC> 25-27 May
16:49:57 <DanC> agenda + GRDDL REC Track? [Ralph]
16:50:01 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 7
16:50:01 <Zakim> agendum 7. "GRDDL REC Track?" taken up [from Ralph via DanC]
16:50:25 <DanC> Ralph: enough time in the BP chartered duration?
16:51:19 <Ralph> Dan: from an architectural point of view, if the profile points to something then we can find license for the extracted RDF
16:51:28 <Ralph> ... this does not oblige anyone on the receiving end
16:51:45 <Ralph> ... e.g. "if I gather data from the Web, should I know about GRDDL?"
16:51:58 <Ralph> ... MSpace from Southampton is an example
16:52:08 <dom> s/MSpace/mSpace/ 
16:52:11 <Ralph> ... should MSpace slurp up GRDDL documents?
16:52:22 <Ralph> s/MSpace/mSpace/
16:52:45 <Ralph> ... if GRDDL were a W3C Recommendation it would be a clear statement to mSpace-like developers
16:53:14 <Ralph> ... so this Rec? question is really "is GRDDL best practice for publishing data in the Web"?
16:55:04 <Ralph> Ralph: what unresolved issues may still exist in GRDDL?
16:55:09 <Ralph> DanC: reuse of fragment identifiers
16:55:37 <DanC> <baseball#patek> :avg .325.
16:56:13 <Ralph> ... some readings of the HTML spec say #patek is a piece of HTML markup
16:58:15 <DanC> (hmm... CR might be just the signal we need to get DC, CC, RDDL, etc. to vote with their feet)
16:59:25 <Ralph> PROPOSE to take GRDDL to SWBP as Rec-track
16:59:36 <Ralph> DanC: are we quorate to make this decision here?
16:59:56 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben put the GRDDL to Rec? question to the TF mailing list
17:01:20 <DanC> (do give a clear deadline. 7 days is traditional, but given the meeting next week, 3 working days seems fair.)
17:02:07 <DanC> agenda?
17:02:17 <DanC> Zakim, close item 5
17:02:17 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
17:02:19 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:02:19 <DanC> Zakim, close item 6
17:02:20 <Zakim> 6. XTech milestone [from DanC]
17:02:20 <DanC> Zakim, close item 7
17:02:21 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
17:02:24 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:02:27 <Zakim> 7. GRDDL REC Track? [from Ralph via DanC]
17:02:28 <Zakim> agendum 7 closed
17:02:29 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
17:03:43 <dom> regrets from me for the TF during WG F2F
17:03:47 <dom> (I have a conflicting meeting)
17:04:38 <DanC> (ouch!)
17:05:06 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
17:09:28 <danbri> danbri has joined #swbp
17:12:12 <Zakim> -Dom
17:13:05 <Zakim> -Ralph
17:13:06 <Zakim> -DanC
17:13:06 <Zakim> SW_BPD(html)11:00AM has ended
17:13:07 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Dom, DanC, Ben_Adida
17:13:15 <DanC> 2005-02-26 lv ORD 17:29 ar BOS 20:46 Saturday AMERICAN AIRLINES #874
17:13:20 <DanC> -- http://www.w3.org/2005/03dc-bos/bos-tp-aab.txt
17:13:31 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:13:31 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items:
17:13:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph query Tom Baker about DCMI interest in GRDDL as a solution [1]
17:13:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/23-swbp-irc#T16-39-49
17:13:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben ask Mark and Steven for documents that should be reviewed prior to our f2f [2]
17:13:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/23-swbp-irc#T16-45-08
17:13:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben put the GRDDL to Rec? question to the TF mailing list [3]
17:13:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/23-swbp-irc#T16-59-56