IRC log of dawg on 2005-02-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:28:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:28:25 [howardk]
morning all
14:28:31 [Yoshio]
14:28:32 [Zakim]
14:28:46 [Zakim]
14:28:48 [DaveB]
DanC: AndyS and I are at HP
14:29:18 [KevinW]
KevinW has joined #dawg
14:29:22 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P0 is HP
14:29:22 [Zakim]
I already had ??P0 as AndyS+DaveB, DanC
14:29:37 [DanC]
Zakim, AndyS+DaveB is HP
14:29:37 [Zakim]
+HP; got it
14:29:43 [DanC]
Zakim, HP holds AndyS, DaveB
14:29:43 [Zakim]
+AndyS, DaveB; got it
14:29:54 [Zakim]
14:30:05 [Zakim]
14:30:15 [Zakim]
14:30:24 [SteveH]
Zakim, NickG is SteveH
14:30:24 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:30:58 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 1
14:30:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:31:04 [DanC]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:31:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HP, Yoshio, HowardK, Kevin, ??P3, DanC, Kendall_Clark, SteveH
14:31:07 [Zakim]
HP has AndyS, DaveB
14:31:33 [HiroyukiS]
P3 is me
14:31:35 [kendall]
is the "s" in "sparql" "simple" or "sparql"?
14:31:38 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P3 is HiroyukiS
14:31:38 [Zakim]
+HiroyukiS; got it
14:32:07 [Zakim]
14:32:19 [howardk]
it's sparql (what's diff between 1st and last Kendall?)
14:32:33 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
14:32:49 [ericP]
zakim, please dial ericP-617
14:32:49 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:32:50 [Zakim]
14:32:52 [kendall]
yoshio: hehe
14:32:52 [DanC]
Minutes of DAWG 2005-02-15 telcon for review
14:32:56 [Zakim]
14:32:58 [AlbertoR]
AlbertoR has joined #dawg
14:33:09 [ericP]
zakim, please dial ericP-617
14:33:09 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:33:11 [Zakim]
14:33:23 [howardk]
minutes accepted as amended
14:33:39 [Zakim]
14:33:45 [Yoshio]
well, I was absent on 15 (sick in bed)
14:33:54 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P7 is AlbertoR
14:33:55 [Zakim]
+AlbertoR; got it
14:34:27 [DanC]
ammendment2: Yoshio Fukushige not at 15 Feb telcon
14:34:40 [Yoshio]
thank you
14:34:42 [DanC]
agenda + ftf6
14:35:16 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:35:16 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ftf5 Feb 28-1Mar in Cambridge, MA, USA" taken up [from DanC]
14:35:30 [DanC]
-> ftf5 agenda
14:35:39 [howardk]
actions 1: all continued except Steve's
14:36:27 [DanC]
hm... $Revision: 1.11 $ of $Date: 2005/02/04 20:33:55 $ by $Author: danbri $
14:37:22 [howardk]
ftf5: kendall to scribe
14:38:48 [afs]
Boston->CET is 6 hours
14:39:13 [DanC]
Zakim, close this agendum
14:39:13 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
14:39:14 [howardk]
dan has requested same phone #
14:39:15 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:39:17 [Zakim]
3. SPARQL QL publication [from DanC]
14:39:47 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 8
14:39:47 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "ftf6" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:02 [DanC]
-> steve's offer to host
14:41:04 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:41:06 [DanC]
PatH: european SemWeb thing is 1Jun and prev 3 days
14:41:10 [afs]
14:41:25 [Zakim]
14:41:27 [howardk]
ftf6: asemantics offer 19-20 may
14:41:57 [howardk]
pat to put offer in writing
14:42:06 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:42:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HP, Yoshio, HowardK, Kevin, HiroyukiS, DanC, Kendall_Clark, SteveH, PatH, EricP, AlbertoR, JosD
14:42:09 [Zakim]
HP has AndyS, DaveB
14:43:14 [DanC]
Yoshio: pls co-locate ftf meeting with other events
14:43:20 [howardk]
yoshio: prefers adjacent to another conference
14:43:31 [howardk]
kevin: no pref
14:43:34 [howardk]
howard: no pref
14:43:37 [howardk]
hiro: no pref
14:43:53 [howardk]
danc: hoping to go to xtech amsterdam
14:44:03 [howardk]
kendall: not much of a pref
14:44:12 [howardk]
steve: prefers later
14:44:18 [howardk]
plus offers to host
14:44:23 [howardk]
pat offered as well
14:44:39 [howardk]
doesn't mind if elsewhere tho
14:44:52 [howardk]
eric: co-locate w/ xtech would be nice
14:45:04 [howardk]
jos: same as alberto
14:45:54 [AlbertoR]
alberto: prefers Europe for f2f 6th either Southumpton (or Leiden)
14:46:14 [howardk]
andy: being in Japan 1 week before Leiden would be toughish
14:46:26 [howardk]
dave: also going to japan
14:46:29 [kendall]
hmm, there's a good chance I'll be in Japan too, actually.
14:47:22 [howardk]
danc: would like to celebrate candidate rec in June
14:47:40 [DanC]
(get there in Apr, celebrate May/Jun)
14:48:35 [howardk]
danc: can we decide in cambridge?
14:48:49 [DanC]
so danc's action continues; the rest are done.
14:48:58 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:48:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "SPARQL QL publication" taken up [from DanC]
14:49:16 [howardk]
and much happiness all around
14:50:19 [howardk]
eric: operators depending on operand type still a bit unclear
14:50:41 [howardk]
whoops: I missed what was a bit controversial eric?
14:51:02 [DaveB]
14:51:09 [DaveB]
from XQuery F&O
14:51:19 [howardk]
thank you
14:51:27 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:51:27 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "SPARQL result set" taken up [from DanC]
14:51:33 [DaveB]
DanC mentioned query pubbed around cvs version 1.224/1.225
14:52:06 [howardk]
daveb: action is done
14:52:37 [howardk]
liam's suggest xsl group to review result set spec
14:52:58 [howardk]
daveb: a few comments re attrs vs elements but not significant
14:53:43 [AlbertoR]
14:54:12 [AlbertoR]
Damian Steer
14:54:24 [howardk]
daveb: mentions comment and recommendation on xsi:type
14:54:25 [DanC]
-> Re: XML result format and datatypes
14:55:03 [DanC]
ack danc
14:55:03 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note qname "fun"
14:55:22 [ericP]
14:55:27 [howardk]
danc: xsi:type takes qname, with accompanying issues
14:56:30 [howardk]
danc: comment seems well motivated
14:57:07 [ericP]
14:57:38 [howardk]
dave: can't turn all uri's into qnames
14:58:16 [howardk]
eric: wsdl uri types are xpointers and end in lparens: can't become qnames
14:58:38 [DanC]
(ericp, are those WSDL uris supposed to be URIs for datatypes? or URIs for datatype-related-syntactic-constructs?)
14:59:34 [howardk]
dave will accept action to mull on this
14:59:52 [DanC]
ACTION DaveB: consider use of xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer
14:59:59 [howardk]
best practises doc discusses this issue
15:00:15 [ericP]
<foo xmlns:foo="http://...myCrazyScheme#" xsi:datatype="foo:thang">1234</foo>
15:00:43 [howardk]
daveb: wants to also think over yes/no in result set
15:01:07 [afs]
Eric - that complicates things :-(
15:01:14 [ericP]
orig datatype was http://...myCrazyScheme#thang. did we communicate that to XSD? or at least RDF people interpretting theXML data?
15:01:38 [patH]
the best practices doc is
15:02:29 [howardk]
daveb: to review question of errors from protocol affecting result set
15:03:21 [howardk]
malformed query to return defined error in result set ?
15:03:51 [DanC]
(hmm... HTTP error codes seem exactly right for the "malformed query" case)
15:04:13 [howardk]
kendall: what about soap, rpc etc?
15:05:22 [howardk]
daveb: runtime errors can also occur (??)
15:05:44 [DaveB]
runtime errors such as can't load uri, extension function failed, ...
15:06:35 [howardk]
kendall: some http error codes map nicely, but ...
15:07:34 [DanC]
-> 400 Bad Request
15:08:22 [DanC]
looking in ...
15:08:26 [JosD]
15:08:31 [howardk]
kendall: has relevant section in protocol spec re 400 bad request
15:08:59 [howardk]
kendall: but not 100% confident of treatment
15:09:03 [howardk]
danc: looks ok to me
15:09:39 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:09:39 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "valueTesting, XSCH" taken up [from DanC]
15:09:39 [howardk]
daveb: hoping for another draft before ftf, get in yes/no and think about schema thing
15:10:01 [howardk]
pat has done detailed review for authors
15:10:14 [howardk]
thinks nice piece of work!
15:10:44 [howardk]
doesn't think 2nd half impacts our work
15:10:56 [howardk]
erics hasn't read pat's comment yet
15:11:17 [howardk]
pat: 1st half has recommendation on id (?) rather than name
15:11:37 [howardk]
technique of using bracketed ending not practical for compatibility reasons
15:11:56 [ericP]
(that technique is XPointer, i believe)
15:12:11 [howardk]
didn't fully understand all ramifications tho
15:12:22 [howardk]
ericp: mostly made sense
15:12:43 [howardk]
pat: it's a bit of a mess
15:12:59 [howardk]
danc: would prefer to see test case how it effects our work
15:13:13 [howardk]
ericp: action continued
15:13:20 [howardk]
pat's: done
15:13:33 [howardk]
jos: sorry, no further progress
15:13:39 [howardk]
to be continued
15:13:54 [howardk]
(prior of section 11 testing values)
15:14:27 [howardk]
jos: 2 test cases: one test case no results; 2nd case an implies returning data
15:15:08 [howardk]
in this case fires once
15:16:09 [howardk]
danc: not sure how well fits existing test structure
15:16:24 [howardk]
but engines doing inference before should be discussed somewhere
15:16:54 [howardk]
danc: saying it's ok, it can happen
15:17:19 [DaveB]
Andy refers to ' ?A^^xsd:dateTime'
15:17:31 [howardk]
daveb: notes similarity to casting (dave? andy?)
15:17:58 [howardk]
15:17:59 [DanC]
(jos, I think it would be interesting to discuss ?A^^xsd:dateTime in public-cwm-talk)
15:18:25 [howardk]
andy: mentions issue of type promotion from xquery
15:18:43 [howardk]
test only gets applied to final type
15:19:01 [DanC]
(my wish for a discussion of this sort of inference in one of our docs doesn't seem to have gone anywhere... hmm... I guess that's ok)
15:19:46 [afs]
Opne to suggests for a para to insert somewhere Dan.
15:19:57 [howardk]
danc: may a 1000 test cases bloom
15:20:28 [afs]
Pref have that text early, not specific to values
15:20:35 [howardk]
eg do strings automatically get promoted to ints?
15:21:07 [howardk]
danc: test case 2 means change to turtle
15:21:20 [howardk]
turtle + literal subjects
15:21:47 [DaveB]
test case 1 does not need literal subjects
15:22:39 [howardk]
test case 2 also has triple variable in it
15:22:45 [DaveB]
?A^^xsd:dateTime math:greaterThan ?B^^xsd:dateTime
15:22:46 [howardk]
can't be done
15:23:41 [DanC]
"2005-02-15T00:00:00Z" op:dateTime-greater-than "2000-06-00T00:00:00Z".
15:24:40 [DaveB]
Tripe pattern section 2.2
15:24:42 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:24:42 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:24:51 [DaveB]
RDF-G union V x RDF-U union V x RDF-G union V
15:25:10 [howardk]
danc: would be in favour of extending turtle to handle literal subjects for test suite
15:26:21 [howardk]
danc: would require changing turtle, but isn't rdf/xml
15:26:26 [DanC]
"2005-02-15T00:00:00Z"^^xsd:dateTime op:dateTime-greater-than "2000-06-00T00:00:00Z"^^xsd:dateTime.
15:26:43 [howardk]
pat: would have pedagogic value to do so
15:27:13 [howardk]
ericp: would hesitate to add a new req: literal subjects
15:27:19 [AlbertoR]
same here
15:27:44 [afs]
+1 - we check and assume no literal subjects
15:27:53 [DaveB]
DaveB also redland
15:28:14 [howardk]
sorry: check for what andy?
15:28:22 [afs]
Our Graph layer can do it - Our public API doesn't
15:28:38 [howardk]
danc: doesn't see critical mass of support
15:28:44 [afs]
(Check for literal subjects)
15:29:21 [howardk]
jos: you can use bnode to express this in rdf/xml
15:29:29 [ericP]
what's the range of owl:sameAs ?
15:29:50 [JosD]
15:30:14 [howardk]
steve: literal subjects seem like agood idea, but maybe not in the query language
15:30:49 [howardk]
danc: invites jos to submit test
15:31:01 [howardk]
jos prefers to wait a bit due to bandwith issue
15:31:16 [DanC]
ACTION Jos: propose an optional test based on ACTION op:dateTime triple
15:31:51 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:31:51 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "accessingCollections" taken up [from DanC]
15:32:03 [DaveB]
I hope JosD uses the triple: <DanC>"2005-02-15T00:00:00Z" op:dateTime-greater-than "2000-06-00T00:00:00Z".
15:32:39 [howardk]
dan's email prompted a few thoughts
15:33:05 [kendall]
so that's not something we shld consider for dawg work?
15:33:30 [DanC]
-> a service description approach to accessingCollections
15:33:56 [howardk]
proposes to postpone the issue
15:34:25 [kendall]
good, that's one less thing i have to read soon. :>
15:34:30 [howardk]
at least for this recommendation, no impetus to standardize seen
15:34:42 [DaveB]
I don't think anyone has actually made such a service...
15:34:46 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to postpone accessingCollections because (a) our not standardizing it doesn't stop anybody from playing (b) none of the extant designs seems sufficiently mature
15:34:51 [howardk]
pat feels nervous about postponing this
15:35:08 [howardk]
7 different implementations will spring into being
15:35:14 [howardk]
w/ accompanying chaos
15:35:19 [howardk]
danc: not so bad
15:35:52 [howardk]
danc: feels group has given sufficient thought to this
15:36:10 [howardk]
question: postpone this?
15:36:20 [kendall]
KC abstaining, as well
15:36:24 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:36:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HP, Yoshio, HowardK, Kevin, HiroyukiS, DanC, Kendall_Clark (muted), SteveH, PatH, EricP, AlbertoR, JosD
15:36:26 [Zakim]
HP has AndyS, DaveB
15:36:33 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:36:33 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:37:03 [howardk]
hp abstain
15:37:04 [Yoshio]
how about giving just informative example?
15:37:09 [DanC]
no, hp did not abstain
15:37:23 [afs]
HP is happy to postpone the issue to the next WG
15:37:27 [howardk]
yoshio: sorry
15:37:32 [howardk]
whoops, that's me
15:37:58 [howardk]
yoshio: abstain
15:38:05 [howardk]
howard abstain
15:38:18 [howardk]
hiroyuki: can live w/ postpone
15:38:21 [howardk]
w3c: in favour
15:38:25 [DanC]
p a a p p a p a p a
15:38:30 [howardk]
alberto: postpone
15:38:33 [DanC]
p a a p p a p a p a p
15:38:42 [howardk]
daveb: postpone
15:38:53 [howardk]
danc: question carries
15:38:54 [kendall]
15:38:58 [DanC]
15:39:09 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:39:09 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Service Descriptions" taken up [from DanC]
15:39:32 [howardk]
no motion to adjourn
15:40:02 [DanC]
-> Re: on log:definitiveService
15:40:17 [howardk]
danc action: 0166.thml
15:40:38 [howardk]
andy said yes, not much other response
15:41:09 [howardk]
andy: you can be 'partially definitive'
15:41:39 [howardk]
kendall: inclined to support something similar
15:42:02 [Yoshio]
what do you mean by "partically definitive,"andy?
15:42:06 [howardk]
assumes doesn't need more text from danc
15:42:37 [howardk]
danc: still a bit early for a few (who?)
15:42:56 [howardk]
dan's action's done
15:43:17 [DanC]
(I heard SteveH, DaveB say "too early")
15:43:35 [howardk]
kendall wants support in order to do so
15:44:46 [howardk]
danc: (1) we can write a test case (for failure)
15:44:50 [DaveB]
sounds too premature to me. get these people together to invent a preidcate themselves and experiment
15:45:05 [howardk]
(2) (howard missed that)
15:45:39 [howardk]
action on sparqlParam: ...
15:47:12 [howardk]
ericp: it offers people providing services much more latitude
15:47:32 [afs]
Makes writing servlets hard ??
15:47:50 [DaveB]
there are 6 http query params in sparql protocol
15:47:53 [afs]
(Servlet API has parameter accessors)
15:47:59 [howardk]
eric to mail on simple concatenation
15:48:20 [kendall]
fwiw, I preferred some of those query parameters to be HTTP headers...
15:48:23 [howardk]
has already done: ...
15:48:41 [howardk]
dan's action done
15:48:58 [howardk]
next 3 actions kendall's ...
15:49:07 [howardk]
1 continued
15:49:19 [afs]
Kendall, doesn't that mess up HTTP?
15:49:21 [howardk]
2 continued
15:49:46 [howardk]
would like to put 3 on agenda cambridge
15:49:54 [kendall]
afs: huh?
15:50:29 [ericP]
concatonated query: option 4 (look for "append the encoded query directoly")
15:50:32 [howardk]
danc: just giving example of construct w/ optional ok
15:50:57 [howardk]
overloading http error code seems bad idea
15:51:20 [howardk]
(prior is kendall)
15:51:22 [afs]
and which suggests layering and making client assembly independent
15:52:13 [howardk]
question of adding an http header ...
15:52:32 [SteveH]
15:52:33 [DanC]
-> 13.1.2 Warnings
15:52:48 [howardk]
seems possibly relevant
15:52:54 [howardk]
also steve's prior url
15:52:57 [ericP]
kendall, http extensions:
15:53:37 [howardk]
ericp: continued to tech plenary
15:53:57 [howardk]
ericp to expedite somewhat
15:54:49 [howardk]
kendall: lab partner has shown soap protocol, 70% soap binding for sparql protocol
15:54:58 [howardk]
offered to help co-write note on this
15:55:01 [howardk]
what to do?
15:55:33 [howardk]
will try to incorporate under pressure to publish expeditiously
15:56:21 [howardk]
danc: if they joined wg, they could present ideas directly
15:56:47 [howardk]
kendall: odds to join are low, not their priority
15:57:01 [howardk]
kendall action to followup with email
15:59:10 [howardk]
should other bindings be incorporated in protocol spec
15:59:26 [howardk]
ericp: would be nice to leverage off their work
15:59:27 [DanC]
(just about out of time)
15:59:39 [howardk]
kendall: thinks available in open source
15:59:49 [howardk]
danc: motion to adjourn
15:59:58 [Zakim]
15:59:59 [Zakim]
16:00:00 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:00:01 [Yoshio]
16:00:02 [Zakim]
16:00:03 [Zakim]
16:00:06 [Zakim]
16:00:07 [DanC]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
16:00:11 [Zakim]
16:00:12 [Zakim]
16:00:13 [afs]
16:00:14 [Zakim]
16:00:20 [Zakim]
16:00:24 [ericP]
yes andy?
16:00:46 [DanC]
Zakim, list attendees
16:00:46 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Yoshio, HowardK, Kevin, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, Kendall_Clark, SteveH, HiroyukiS, PatH, EricP, AlbertoR, JosD
16:00:48 [afs]
We have a short time to LC
16:00:53 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
16:01:08 [DanC]
Meeting: RDF Data Access
16:01:13 [DanC]
Chair: DanC
16:01:19 [DanC]
Scribe: howardk
16:01:30 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
16:01:41 [afs]
I have a few things I may get done this week but I'm having "interesting" times impl values
16:01:49 [afs]
16:02:13 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:02:13 [RRSAgent]
16:02:17 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
16:02:31 [afs]
What changes are queued up (it's so busy I've lost track)
16:02:35 [DanC]
16:02:40 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
16:03:01 [DanC]
$Date: 2005/02/22 16:02:46 $
16:03:23 [Zakim]
16:03:32 [Zakim]
16:03:33 [Zakim]
16:03:33 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:03:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were Yoshio, HowardK, Kevin, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, Kendall_Clark, SteveH, HiroyukiS, PatH, EricP, AlbertoR, JosD
16:04:15 [ericP]
afs, in my queue is a chat with liam about going the last mile in specifying operator behavior (defining how the overload is selected)
16:04:47 [ericP]
getting a sanity check from someone in XQuery
16:04:50 [afs]
See Danbri comment?
16:05:16 [ericP]
taking to martin about a hard-coded utf-8 requirement
16:05:31 [afs]
What's that?
16:06:24 [afs]
We only talk about character strings??
16:06:37 [ericP]
we either need a protocol way to specify the character encoding or specify a specific encoding
16:07:09 [ericP]
otherwise the far end has no way to know how to decode into big chars
16:07:20 [ericP]
danbri's comment, the mbox one?
16:07:22 [ericP]
16:07:25 [afs]
OK - I was just thinking Q, not protocol - assumed HTTP encoding was OK
16:07:50 [afs]
i.e. It's for Kendall :-)
16:08:35 [afs]
Yep - mbox one. I'd be more comfortable if all examples had been executed (I have found mistakes in mime by doing that)
16:08:56 [DaveB]
it better be in Q somewhere otherwise how do I get from bytes in my sparql query (file) to unicode chars
16:09:10 [afs]
Also - we'll need to do examples => tests (post LC)
16:10:11 [AlbertoR]
AlbertoR has left #dawg
16:24:13 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop