IRC log of dawg on 2005-02-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:23:13 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:25:08 [DaveB]
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14:29:15 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started
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14:30:00 [Zakim]
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14:30:07 [Zakim]
14:30:07 [ericP]
zakim, please dial ericP-617
14:30:09 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
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14:30:13 [DaveB]
Zakim, ??P4 is DaveB
14:30:13 [Zakim]
+DaveB; got it
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14:30:38 [JosD]
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14:31:23 [HiroyukiS]
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14:32:35 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 1
14:32:35 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:32:42 [afs_]
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14:32:55 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:32:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HowardK, Kendall_Clark, DaveB, HiroyukiS, DanC, EricP, AndyS, [ASemantics], SteveH, JosD
14:33:18 [DanC]
Minutes of 2005-02-08 Telecon for review
14:33:18 [DanC]
14:33:36 [db-scribe]
14:33:39 [db-scribe]
14:33:45 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:33:45 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HowardK
14:33:54 [db-scribe]
22 Feb meeting
14:33:55 [Zakim]
14:33:57 [db-scribe]
scribe howard
14:34:11 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P9 is JanneS
14:34:11 [Zakim]
+JanneS; got it
14:34:33 [db-scribe]
Actions review
14:35:00 [db-scribe]
all continued
14:35:05 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:35:05 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ftf6" taken up [from DanC]
14:35:22 [DanC]
14:35:51 [DanC]
aka ftf5
14:36:33 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:36:34 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:36:49 [DanC]
27 February - 1 March 2005 Cambridge, MA
14:36:49 [DanC]
WG meeting, part of W3C Technical plenary
14:36:57 [SteveH]
zakim, mute me
14:36:57 [Zakim]
SteveH should now be muted
14:36:58 [DanC]
regrets Alberto
14:37:08 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:37:08 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:37:20 [DanC]
regrets DaveB
14:37:43 [DanC]
(oops; I should do something about Enrico Franconi)
14:37:54 [db-scribe]
(looking at the registration page above0
14:37:56 [db-scribe]
14:38:16 [DanC]
tentative/indirect regrets from Bryan Thompson
14:38:29 [DanC]
(hmm... Jean-Fran├žois Baget ?)
14:39:10 [DanC]
KC: partial conflict; presenting NASA interop in SWIG
14:39:30 [DanC]
(Network Inference ?)
14:40:07 [DanC]
Janne: trying...
14:40:53 [DanC]
(hmm.. .Farrukh Najmi?)
14:41:14 [DanC]
(hmm... Pat Hayes?)
14:41:21 [DanC]
regrets Howard Katz
14:42:14 [db-scribe]
av requirements...
14:42:20 [db-scribe]
e.g. remote dialin
14:42:31 [AlbertoR]
yes please
14:42:57 [SteveH]
zakim, unmute me
14:42:57 [Zakim]
SteveH should no longer be muted
14:43:05 [AlbertoR]
time no prob for me - before midnight here possibly :)
14:43:23 [db-scribe]
maybe 2-3 hour slot max on eachh day, to be decided - DanC
14:43:31 [db-scribe]
above re f2f5
14:43:34 [kendall]
+q can we see observer reqests on the web somewhere?
14:43:38 [db-scribe]
DanC has 1/2day conflict
14:43:40 [kendall]
q+ can we see observer reqests on the web somewhere?
14:43:43 [db-scribe]
kendall: see form results above
14:43:47 [DanC]
14:44:16 [db-scribe]
f2f6 proposals
14:44:21 [db-scribe]
continued actions
14:44:35 [db-scribe]
(: add pointer to alberto's proposal to minutes)
14:44:51 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:44:51 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "valueTesting, XSCH" taken up [from DanC]
14:45:02 [AlbertoR] offer to host
14:45:17 [DanC]
14:45:44 [db-scribe]
swbpd wants feedback at (before?) tech plenary
14:46:05 [db-scribe]
... we think they want to decide to publish at swbpd wg f2f
14:46:17 [db-scribe]
eric, path actions continued
14:46:52 [db-scribe]
steve review at
14:47:09 [db-scribe]
ericp - found some things need to go over, via email pref
14:47:42 [JosD]
14:48:14 [db-scribe]
josd review continued
14:49:16 [db-scribe]
josd: triple constraints easier than AND ... constraints
14:49:27 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:49:27 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:49:40 [kendall]
okay, thx
14:49:41 [db-scribe]
josD - not convinced by need for BOUND
14:49:45 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:49:45 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:49:50 [DanC]
(Jos the one thing that makes AND constraints special, to me, is that you can compute their negation in all cases.)
14:50:18 [db-scribe]
DaveB - having problems thinkng about these constraints as triples
14:50:45 [db-scribe]
ericP - maybe things you can't (easily) express as triples in the language
14:51:43 [db-scribe]
ericP - you could take sparql and turn it into n3 + ... and use xslt [?]
14:53:26 [AndyS]
I observe literals as subjects in Jos's examples
14:53:47 [AlbertoR]
we got some ical/RDF-cal samples using contraints into triple-patterns (e.g. dates comparinsons) - see
14:54:01 [db-scribe]
ACTION DaveB: sketch tests on operators as predicates (aka constraints as triples)
14:54:02 [AlbertoR]
e.g. (?dtstart op:dateTime-greater-than "2000-06-00T00:00:00A")
14:54:31 [DanC]
14:54:32 [DanC]
PREFIX ical: <>
14:54:32 [DanC]
SELECT ?uri ?summary ?dtstart
14:54:32 [DanC]
FROM <rdfstore://localhost:1234/xannouncements>
14:54:32 [DanC]
14:54:32 [DanC]
(?uri ical:summary ?summary)
14:54:34 [DanC]
(?uri ical:dtstart ?dtstart)
14:54:40 [DanC]
(?dtstart op:dateTime-greater-than "2000-06-00T00:00:00A")
14:54:42 [DanC]
14:55:43 [DanC]
ack danc
14:56:02 [db-scribe]
ericP - set of predicates that sparql engines must understand
14:56:14 [db-scribe]
as operators and supported
14:57:00 [db-scribe]
AndyS - will fails as the triple has a subject as literal
14:57:11 [db-scribe]
and the object value isn't an xsd:date
14:57:19 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:57:19 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:57:36 [db-scribe]
EricP - spec does not recognise op:... in the triple pattern
14:58:43 [db-scribe]
AndyS - removed this from the spec
14:58:47 [AlbertoR]
I found it usefvul though (e.g. easier query optimization) - without processing the whole AND contraints clause
14:59:04 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:59:04 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:00:41 [db-scribe]
suggest to make 2 tests with same query,differnet intput
15:00:48 [db-scribe]
one has no op;dateTime pred, one does
15:01:13 [SteveH]
zakim, mute me
15:01:13 [Zakim]
SteveH should now be muted
15:01:14 [kendall]
does turtle allow variables?
15:01:16 [AndyS]
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15:01:36 [db-scribe]
ACTION JosD: make test with op:dateTime predicate /without it
15:01:53 [db-scribe]
15:02:11 [db-scribe]
kendall: no, it's just an rdf syntax
15:02:15 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:02:15 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "SPARQL QL pub" taken up [from DanC]
15:02:42 [db-scribe]
EricP bound - done
15:02:49 [kendall]
db-scribe: yeah, that's what i thought (another reason why i didn't want to change the triple pattern syntax to be the "turtle part of n3")
15:02:55 [db-scribe]
EricP inline issue - continued
15:03:16 [SteveH]
zakim, unmute me
15:03:16 [Zakim]
SteveH should no longer be muted
15:03:26 [DanC]
15:03:49 [db-scribe]
discussions of concrete syntax changes ongoing
15:05:52 [db-scribe]
discussions of syntax - where and how
15:07:45 [db-scribe]
rq23 9.1 has a bunch of FROM/WITH which probably need unifying to WITH
15:08:44 [AndyS]
Will check and fix ASAP
15:09:09 [AndyS]
15:10:09 [db-scribe]
OPTIONAL and [] both allowed at present in rq23
15:10:29 [db-scribe]
AndyS preference for just OPTIONAL keyword
15:11:08 [AlbertoR]
would an optional block then be OPTIONAL { ...... } ?
15:11:19 [db-scribe]
sigh I see BASE still exists in the grammar only
15:11:25 [DanC]
typo "teh optional"
15:11:44 [SteveH]
typo in 5.1 "One the dat aabove, they return the query result:"
15:11:52 [kendall]
AndyS: fwiw, i like the idea of considering "merely" syntax issues all at once... it's hard to do them piece meal
15:12:35 [AlbertoR]
15:14:03 [DanC]
ack AlbertoR
15:14:53 [db-scribe]
DanC - will stick with plan to pub thu/fri
15:15:37 [kendall]
what's the status quo about BOUND today?
15:15:47 [kendall]
i can't find anything in 1.205...
15:16:06 [SteveH]
kendall, BOUND ?x v's BOUNT(?x) etc.
15:16:11 [db-scribe]
AndyS summarises current thoughts - delete [] for optiona,s kep AND, keep functions the same, keep BOUND(?x)
15:16:39 [DanC]
broken link "(see the bound test)."
15:16:41 [ericP] connectes the grammar to an operator
15:16:55 [DanC] sop:bound
15:17:27 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:17:28 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Service Descriptions" taken up [from DanC]
15:17:39 [AlbertoR]
is there a namespace for sop: prefix?
15:17:52 [ericP] defines the behavoir of op:bound
15:18:10 [DanC]
steve svc description
15:18:16 [db-scribe]
15:19:06 [db-scribe]
steve - usesOntology unsure about the 'O' word
15:19:17 [db-scribe]
"vocabs used in that document"
15:19:47 [db-scribe]
might work for rdfs, but maybe not for owl which has a more formal defn
15:21:03 [db-scribe]
discussion of dawg:usesOntology - "does this thing know about foaf?"
15:21:11 [db-scribe]
or "understand" (handwave)
15:22:06 [db-scribe]
steve - useful but not particularly happy about this either hte predicate name or the semantics
15:22:57 [db-scribe]
could indirect via another node to allow multiple points to hang off the usesOntology, supprotsDataType
15:23:10 [db-scribe]
... so different interfaces/service access points
15:23:16 [AndyS]
+1 to Steve's point about some properties about the data not the service
15:23:23 [db-scribe]
other actions continued
15:24:24 [db-scribe]
DanC did some of the wsdl/soap encodings action, asking PLH
15:25:11 [db-scribe]
got some way through then ran into wsdl2.0 requirement for tools
15:25:23 [db-scribe]
15:25:29 [db-scribe]
all kendall actions continued
15:25:53 [db-scribe]
Documents to read at F2F meeting
15:26:25 [db-scribe]
re Protocol, a week before meeting
15:27:09 [db-scribe]
last substantive change before helsinki f2f, more stuff not yet commited
15:27:11 [db-scribe]
and todo
15:27:37 [db-scribe]
1 week before meeeting - 21st
15:27:45 [db-scribe]
for docs to read, to be available
15:28:52 [db-scribe]
VBR draft not expected to be avail 21st
15:29:58 [db-scribe]
DaveB to try to deliver updated VBR by 28th Feb
15:30:17 [db-scribe]
sparql query wd - pub this week, natural for f2f
15:30:40 [db-scribe]
DanC - trying to put turtle out as an interest group note
15:31:22 [db-scribe]
turtle used as our test case format
15:31:32 [db-scribe]
and in specs
15:31:54 [db-scribe]
appendix in query lang docs
15:32:03 [db-scribe]
on n3ish alternatives
15:32:12 [db-scribe]
at risk due to time
15:32:27 [db-scribe]
ericP can work on this tomorrow
15:32:38 [db-scribe]
s/this/n3 appendix/ - maybe
15:32:52 [db-scribe]
15:32:58 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:33:14 [Zakim]
15:33:15 [Zakim]
15:33:16 [Zakim]
15:33:17 [Zakim]
15:33:17 [Zakim]
15:33:18 [Zakim]
15:33:20 [Zakim]
15:33:26 [Zakim]
15:33:33 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:33:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see EricP, AndyS, SteveH
15:38:25 [DaveB]
DaveB has joined #dawg
15:45:37 [ericP]
PREFIX foaf: &lt;;
15:45:37 [ericP]
SELECT ?name1 ?name2
15:45:37 [ericP]
WHERE ( ?x foaf:name ?name1 )
15:45:37 [ericP]
( ?x foaf:mbox ?mbox1 )
15:45:37 [ericP]
( ?y foaf:name ?name2 )
15:45:40 [ericP]
( ?y foaf:mbox ?mbox2 )
15:45:42 [ericP]
AND ?mbox1 == ?mbox2 && ?name1 NE ?name2
15:48:45 [AndyS]
Typo : op:numeric-add(xs:float(7) + xs:float(6.5)) - the + should be ","
15:50:36 [SteveH]
typo in 5.1 "One the dat aabove, they return the query result:"
15:51:03 [Zakim]
16:12:36 [ericP]
Used in conjunction with optional, it can be used to test whether triple with a variable has been asserted.
16:14:37 [ericP]
Used in conjunction with optional, it can be used to test whether a graph pattern with at least one variable in it has been matched.
16:26:16 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone
16:26:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AndyS
16:26:21 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:26:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see EricP, AndyS
16:28:25 [Zakim]
16:28:26 [Zakim]
16:28:27 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:28:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were HowardK, Kendall_Clark, DanC, EricP, DaveB, [ASemantics], SteveH, JosD, AndyS, HiroyukiS, JanneS
16:29:25 [DaveB]
and I got the minutes out
16:29:35 [DaveB]
which will refer to this very irc log
16:31:28 [ericP]
daveb, good circularity!
16:57:31 [AndyS]
Changes to rq23 made - v1.209
17:27:07 [DanC]
ericp, andy, you are the only candidates for filling in as chair while I'm in the TAG meeting.
17:27:28 [DanC]
that I know of
17:27:46 [DanC]
and I might be stretching it to interpret Andy's comments as offering to chair
17:28:28 [ericP]
i reckon i can do it.
17:29:15 [ericP]
i note thta i'm better moderating discussion than coercing WG decisions
17:33:20 [DanC]
I'm trying to find a half-day of business that I'm not interested in ;-)
17:33:53 [DanC]
hmm... fromUnionQuery ... dunno if you're suficiently disinterested to chair that
17:34:10 [DanC]
(looking at )
17:36:15 [DanC]
I tried to scare away the observers, but it didn't work.
17:36:47 [DanC]
i.e. I sent a "if you really want to attend, you need to prove it by writing yet another mail message to me" and they did
17:37:10 [ericP]
i don't think i can do fromUnionQuery
17:37:31 [ericP]
all? i just saw one insistence
17:40:19 [DanC]
I got 4 "no" answers to my "go away?" message
17:40:59 [DanC]
Marja, Jacek,,
17:41:50 [DanC]
ok, I think I have my ducks sufficiently lined up that I can ask the admin folks what size room they're giving us
17:44:50 [AndyS]
I can chair if you want - best if that session is not about rq23 issues.
17:47:58 [AndyS]
If Eric wants to get involved in protocol, I can chair a protocol session.
17:48:18 [AndyS]
DanC - what do you want to miss?
17:48:39 [DanC]
I think I want to miss fromUnionQuery
17:48:59 [DanC]
and maybe ftf6 scheduling, though I dunno if I can
17:49:20 [ericP]
I don't hink y ouhae that option. you're two candidate chairs are involved in it
17:49:27 [ericP]
(re missing fromUnionQuery)
17:51:10 [DanC]
17:51:18 [DanC]
how about nestedOptionals?
17:51:57 [DanC]
it needs a WG decision, coerced or otherwise
17:52:22 [DanC]
hmm... maybe I could do that in the telcon 22 Feb
17:52:46 [DanC]
maybe the best way to spend Monday AM is joint with SWIG
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Zakim has left #dawg
19:14:53 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop