IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-02-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:43:26 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:43:26 [RRSAgent]: is logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/02/03-wai-wcag-irc
20:50:24 [wendy]: regrets: Roberto Castaldo
20:50:32 [wendy]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005JanMar/0368.html
20:50:56 [wendy]: agenda+ Charter and Participation http://www.w3.org/wai/gl/participation.html
20:51:02 [bengt]: bengt has joined #wai-wcag
20:51:08 [wendy]: agenda+ Techniques Task Force Update
20:51:29 [wendy]: agenda+ Continued Discussion of Mapping of WCAG 1.0 checkpoints to WCAG 2.0 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/att-0603/WCAG_1.0_to_WCAG_2.0_SC_12-15-04.html
20:51:44 [wendy]: agenda+ Baseline
20:52:02 [wendy]: agenda+ Definition of structure (Issue 506) http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=506
20:52:14 [wendy]: agenda+ Issue 848: accept Loretta's proposal to reword? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=848
20:52:39 [rellero]: rellero has joined #wai-wcag
20:52:42 [wendy]: agenda+ Issue 887: accept Ben's explanation and close this bug? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=887
20:52:46 [rellero]: Hi
20:52:58 [wendy]: agenda+ Issue 499: covered in guideline 1.1? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=499
20:56:59 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
20:57:06 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
20:57:08 [Michael]: Michael has joined #wai-wcag
20:57:09 [Yvette_Hoitink]: Yvette_Hoitink has joined #wai-wcag
20:57:14 [Yvette_Hoitink]: Hi everyone
20:57:16 [rellero]: Hi
20:57:30 [rscano]: hi
20:57:43 [Yvette_Hoitink]: Ciao Robertox2
20:57:50 [Zakim]: +??P13
20:57:58 [bengt]: zakim, ??P13 is Bengt
20:57:58 [Zakim]: +Bengt; got it
20:58:25 [ben_]: ben_ has joined #wai-wcag
20:58:55 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre
20:59:05 [bengt]: ?? another me ?
20:59:25 [bengt]: zakim, Bengt_Farre is Roberto_Scano
20:59:25 [Zakim]: +Roberto_Scano; got it
20:59:33 [rscano]: zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
21:00:22 [Becky_Gibson]: Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag
21:00:27 [rscano]: zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
21:00:27 [Zakim]: ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
21:00:27 [ChrisR]: ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
21:00:28 [Zakim]: +Becky_Gibson
21:00:53 [Zakim]: +Wendy
21:00:56 [nabe]: nabe has joined #wai-wcag
21:01:07 [Zakim]: +??P17
21:01:07 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
21:01:11 [Zakim]: +Alex_Li
21:01:12 [rellero]: zakim, ??P17 is rellero
21:01:13 [Zakim]: +rellero; got it
21:01:17 [rellero]: zakim, mute me
21:01:17 [Zakim]: rellero should now be muted
21:01:24 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
21:01:27 [Zakim]: +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:01:30 [wendy]: zakim, IPCaller is Chris
21:01:30 [Zakim]: +Chris; got it
21:01:37 [wendy]: zakim, IBM is Andi
21:01:37 [Zakim]: +Andi; got it
21:01:38 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
21:01:41 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
21:01:47 [Zakim]: +Yvette_Hoitink
21:01:52 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (5%), Roberto_Scano (28%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (71%), Wendy (4%)
21:02:06 [wendy]: zakim, Microsoft is Mike
21:02:06 [Zakim]: +Mike; got it
21:02:10 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
21:02:10 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike, Bengt, Roberto_Scano, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, rellero (muted), Chris, Alex_Li, Andi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink
21:02:11 [rscano]: zakim, who is making noise?
21:02:19 [Zakim]: +??P26
21:02:21 [Zakim]: rscano, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Mike (45%), Alex_Li (9%), Michael_Cooper (14%), Wendy (4%)
21:02:27 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
21:02:29 [wendy]: zakim, ??P26 is Trace
21:02:29 [Zakim]: +Trace; got it
21:02:35 [ben_]: zakim, ??P26 is Trace
21:02:35 [Zakim]: I already had ??P26 as Trace, ben_
21:02:37 [wendy]: zakim, IPcaller is Takayuki
21:02:37 [Zakim]: +Takayuki; got it
21:02:38 [Zakim]: +??P27
21:02:42 [bengt]: it went completely silent for me
21:02:44 [achuter]: achuter has joined #wai-wcag
21:02:46 [wendy]: zakim, ??p27 is David
21:02:46 [Zakim]: +David; got it
21:02:51 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
21:03:02 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alex_Li (6%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (34%)
21:03:05 [nabe]: zakim, I am Takayuki
21:03:05 [Zakim]: ok, nabe, I now associate you with Takayuki
21:03:07 [wendy]: zakim, mute loretta
21:03:07 [Zakim]: Loretta_Guarino_Reid should now be muted
21:03:12 [wendy]: zakim, unmute loretta
21:03:12 [Zakim]: Loretta_Guarino_Reid should no longer be muted
21:03:15 [wendy]: zakim, mute alex
21:03:15 [Zakim]: Alex_Li should now be muted
21:03:18 [nabe]: zakim, mute me
21:03:18 [Zakim]: Takayuki should now be muted
21:03:19 [wendy]: zakim, unmute alex
21:03:19 [Zakim]: Alex_Li should no longer be muted
21:03:22 [wendy]: zakim, mute mike
21:03:22 [Zakim]: Mike should now be muted
21:03:22 [ben_]: zakim, who is on the phone?
21:03:23 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike (muted), Bengt, Roberto_Scano, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, rellero (muted), Chris, Alex_Li, Andi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Trace,
21:03:24 [Nemo_[luca]: Nemo_[luca has joined #wai-wcag
21:03:26 [Zakim]: ... Takayuki (muted), David
21:03:29 [wendy]: zakim, unmute mike
21:03:29 [Zakim]: Mike should no longer be muted
21:03:37 [rellero]: ciao nemo
21:03:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
21:03:37 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:03:40 [bengt]: zakim, mute me
21:03:40 [Zakim]: Bengt should now be muted
21:03:43 [Yvette_Hoitink]: does it help?
21:03:50 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, unmute me
21:03:50 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:03:53 [bengt]: ? cant hear anything
21:04:13 [Zakim]: +Alan
21:04:15 [Zakim]: -Bengt
21:04:23 [Zakim]: +JasonWhite
21:04:37 [Zakim]: + +1.508.275.aaaa
21:04:44 [Zakim]: - +1.508.275.aaaa
21:04:55 [David]: David has joined #wai-wcag
21:05:32 [Andi]: Andi has joined #wai-wcag
21:06:01 [Zakim]: +John_Slatin
21:06:05 [wendy]: scribe: andi
21:06:05 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
21:06:05 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:06:23 [Yvette_Hoitink]: lol
21:06:31 [Zakim]: + +1.508.275.aabb
21:06:33 [Zakim]: +??P30
21:06:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, unmute me
21:06:41 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:06:51 [wendy]: zakim, ??P30 is Bengt?
21:06:51 [Zakim]: +Bengt?; got it
21:07:01 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
21:07:01 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike (muted), Roberto_Scano, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, rellero (muted), Chris, Alex_Li, Andi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Trace, Takayuki
21:07:05 [Zakim]: ... (muted), David, Alan, JasonWhite, John_Slatin, +1.508.275.aabb, Bengt?
21:07:11 [wendy]: zakim, mute Bengt
21:07:11 [Zakim]: Bengt? should now be muted
21:07:24 [bengt]: I am mute already :)
21:07:27 [wendy]: :)
21:07:36 [gregg]: gregg has joined #wai-wcag
21:07:44 [David]: zakim, who's making noise?
21:07:55 [Zakim]: David, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Slatin (30%), Alex_Li (4%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (4%), Yvette_Hoitink (30%), Trace (10%), David (4%),
21:07:58 [lmascaro]: lmascaro has joined #wai-wcag
21:07:59 [Zakim]: ... +1.508.275.aabb (56%), JasonWhite (4%)
21:08:18 [bengt]: who was the one joning before me ?
21:08:33 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
21:08:33 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:08:44 [Zakim]: - +1.508.275.aabb
21:08:51 [Andi]: gv: start off with discussion of charter and participation
21:09:00 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 1
21:09:00 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Charter and Participation http://www.w3.org/wai/gl/participation.html" taken up [from wendy]
21:09:03 [Andi]: gv: all members have to requalify
21:09:39 [Andi]: wc: now under new W3C patent policy
21:09:50 [Andi]: wc: W3C makes work available royalty free
21:10:28 [Andi]: wc: organizations who have patents on W3C work need to identify
21:11:07 [Andi]: wc: when members who are part of a W3C member org re-join, have to disclose any applicable patents
21:11:21 [Zakim]: +Nemo_
21:11:22 [Andi]: wc: all others have to go through the "invited experts" process
21:11:36 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, unmute me
21:11:36 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:12:50 [lmascaro]: mute me
21:13:00 [lmascaro]: zakim mute me
21:13:06 [Yvette_Hoitink]: it's zakim, mute me
21:13:10 [Yvette_Hoitink]: with a comma
21:13:10 [rscano]: rs: I've done confirmation - as AC Rep for IWA/HWG for me, Roberto Ellero, Roberto Castaldo, Gez Lemon, Luca Mascaro, Sebastiano Nutarelli
21:13:16 [lmascaro]: zakim, mute me
21:13:16 [Zakim]: sorry, lmascaro, I do not see a party named 'lmascaro'
21:13:22 [bengt]: seems to be a satellite link with that long delay for echo
21:13:26 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, lmascaro is Nemo_
21:13:26 [Zakim]: sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not recognize a party named 'lmascaro'
21:13:26 [wendy]: zakim, lmascaro is nemo
21:13:27 [Zakim]: sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named 'lmascaro'
21:13:34 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, Nemo_ is lmascaro
21:13:34 [Zakim]: +lmascaro; got it
21:13:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute lmascaro
21:13:41 [Zakim]: lmascaro should now be muted
21:13:47 [lmascaro]: tanks
21:13:56 [rscano]: ok... nemo in the abyss now :)
21:14:01 [wendy]: :)
21:14:03 [rellero]: :-)
21:14:35 [Yvette_Hoitink]: "loosing nemo"
21:14:43 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/participation.html
21:15:11 [Andi]: wc: first step - only want to review draft
21:15:19 [Andi]: wc: second step - want to review drafts
21:15:34 [Andi]: wc: third step - want to become member in good standing
21:16:00 [Andi]: wc: if want to become member in good standing, have to joing mailing list
21:16:09 [Andi]: wc: need W3C login and password
21:16:42 [Andi]: wc: if part of W3C member org, W3C person in your org has to approve
21:16:49 [Becky_Gibson]: q+
21:16:59 [Andi]: wc: will take at least 2 business days
21:17:16 [wendy]: ack becky
21:18:23 [Andi]: wc: if W3C member org, AC rep has to complete a nomination form
21:18:30 [rellero]: The following errors were encountered: Cannot leave a group you're not participating in
21:18:33 [Andi]: wc: if have login already, don't need to ask for it again
21:18:50 [wendy]: ack alex
21:19:45 [Andi]: al: what do we have to provide in terms of patents? if we have patents in the area of Web accessibility but don't apply to what we're doing here, do we have to disclose that?
21:20:13 [rscano]: IMHO patents only if are wcag-specific... not WAI specific.
21:20:28 [Andi]: al: example - patent that allows Web application to function just like a Windows application in terms of keyboard operation.
21:21:15 [bengt]: wendy: can only select one of the participation terms ?
21:21:26 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, who's on the phone?
21:21:26 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike (muted), Roberto_Scano, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, rellero (muted), Chris, Alex_Li, Andi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper (muted), Yvette_Hoitink, Trace,
21:21:29 [Zakim]: ... Takayuki (muted), David, Alan, JasonWhite, John_Slatin, Bengt? (muted), lmascaro (muted)
21:21:31 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
21:21:31 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:21:34 [Andi]: wc: thinks the only way that would be an issue is if WCAG WG came up with a technique exactly like the patent, it would be an issue.
21:21:45 [rscano]: yes this is right
21:22:08 [Andi]: wc: you can exclude W3C members from having to pay licensing fee
21:23:22 [Zakim]: +Kerstin_Goldsmith
21:23:34 [Andi]: wc: have 30 days to complete this
21:23:45 [wendy]: action: wendy talk with alex, ian, and others about sap patent question
21:23:52 [wendy]: q?
21:24:04 [wendy]: ack jason
21:24:46 [Andi]: jw: expenses to participate in the working group are an issue
21:26:30 [bengt]: q+
21:26:47 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, unmute me
21:26:47 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:26:55 [bengt]: zakim, unmute me
21:26:55 [Zakim]: Bengt? should no longer be muted
21:26:56 [Andi]: js: Joe Clark and Yvette have raised this issue as well
21:27:12 [Andi]: js: issue for invited experts working on their own
21:28:33 [wendy]: action: wendy follow up with jason and judy about expense issue in the invited expert agreement
21:28:51 [wendy]: q?
21:29:07 [Andi]: yh: my company will pay for some trips but I can't go on the very expensive ones
21:29:19 [Andi]: wc: issue with maintaining participant in good standing status
21:29:34 [wendy]: ack bengt
21:30:24 [Andi]: wc: have to complete an invited expert appication for each group you want to join
21:30:35 [Andi]: wc: all WAI groups have been re-chartered
21:31:12 [Andi]: wc: contact Wendy if have any issues or questions in completing the forms
21:31:24 [wendy]: zakim, close item 1
21:31:24 [Zakim]: agendum 1 closed
21:31:25 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:31:27 [Zakim]: 2. Techniques Task Force Update [from wendy]
21:31:34 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 2
21:31:34 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Techniques Task Force Update" taken up [from wendy]
21:31:44 [Andi]: mc: spent a lot of time reviewing test files
21:31:58 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
21:31:58 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:32:04 [Andi]: mc: some list discussion - reviewed yesterday - came to some resolution on a lot of them
21:32:57 [Andi]: mc: action items resulted - edits to techniques documents and relationship to the guidelines
21:33:21 [Andi]: mc: CSS technique about using certain syntax for identifying colors - will close by putting in advisory information but not a CSS technique
21:34:22 [Andi]: mc: soon will be asking Wed participants to review batches of test files and make recommendations on what to do with them
21:34:44 [Andi]: mc: face to face meeting in Boston at the end of the month
21:34:57 [wendy]: ack a
21:35:21 [Andi]: as: registration for the techniques meeting
21:35:32 [wendy]: ack john
21:35:34 [Andi]: wc: have to register for the W3C plenary
21:35:43 [Andi]: wc: will be registration for CSUN meeting
21:36:36 [Andi]: wc: will be meeting at the Marriott - don't have all the details yet
21:36:41 [wendy]: zakim, close item 2
21:36:41 [Zakim]: agendum 2 closed
21:36:42 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:36:44 [Zakim]: 3. Continued Discussion of Mapping of WCAG 1.0 checkpoints to WCAG 2.0 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/att-0603/WCAG_1.0_to_WCAG_2.0_SC_12-15-04.html
21:36:46 [Zakim]: ... [from wendy]
21:36:49 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 3
21:36:49 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Continued Discussion of Mapping of WCAG 1.0 checkpoints to WCAG 2.0
21:36:52 [Zakim]: ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/att-0603/WCAG_1.0_to_WCAG_2.0_SC_12-15-04.html" taken up [from wendy]
21:37:25 [wendy]: scribe: david
21:38:35 [David]: yup
21:39:14 [wendy]: q+
21:39:16 [wendy]: ack a
21:39:34 [wendy]: ack j
21:39:39 [Yvette_Hoitink]: q+ to say "Most important is that every WCAG 2 level has list of new additions"
21:39:39 [David]: andi: issues in buzilla how to understand how to get from 1.0 to 2.0, we could have a mapping that stars from 1.0 to 2.0 , wg needs to agree on that
21:40:10 [David]: js: it will also help us make sure nothing falls through cracks in the transition
21:40:21 [Yvette_Hoitink]: ack wendy
21:40:58 [David]: wc: highlighted that looking between 1.0 to 2.0 there are issues starting at priority 2 quesiton marks.
21:41:19 [Yvette_Hoitink]: ack yvette
21:41:21 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Most important is that every WCAG 2 level has list of new additions"
21:41:28 [David]: wc: andi said that we could just start at priority 1 and 2
21:41:47 [wendy]: previous discussion of mapping, priority 1 checkpoints: http://www.w3.org/2005/01/06-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item03
21:42:20 [David]: yh: important for users to list what you need to do in level 2 above and beyond what they did in 1.0
21:42:33 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
21:42:33 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:42:45 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, who's making noise?
21:42:48 [David]: yh: from version 1.0 to 2.0
21:42:55 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Loretta_Guarino_Reid (9%), Trace (37%)
21:43:05 [Yvette_Hoitink]: who's Trace?
21:43:12 [Yvette_Hoitink]: Gregg?
21:43:13 [wendy]: trace is ben and gregg
21:43:14 [rscano]: Gregg :)
21:43:16 [Yvette_Hoitink]: ok
21:43:32 [David]: gv: should talk whether an item is required in 1.0, whether it is deprecated, or partially and we must say what part is different
21:44:08 [David]: andi: I was just looking at things that had a quesiton mark
21:45:35 [David]: gv: we must differentiate when something is changed or diffferent...
21:46:06 [Kerstin]: Kerstin has joined #wai-wcag
21:46:13 [David]: andi: 2 pass process, figure out different then go back and elaborate on differences.
21:47:31 [David]: andi: 3.1 started with Ben's mapping...then I looked for SC ...it said related to 4.2 but could not find related one
21:47:39 [David]: js: think it maps to 1.3
21:48:35 [David]: gv: don't think its tied toany SC...perhaps 1.3 advisory
21:49:13 [David]: andi what is your last initial?
21:49:29 [Kerstin]: andi snow-weaver
21:49:31 [rscano]: asw
21:49:40 [David]: thx
21:49:50 [David]: I knew that....:-)
21:51:12 [David]: gv: discuss where it goes
21:51:52 [David]: gv: I think it is not required for conformance... some aspect (related to formating) are required but not like math ML
21:52:06 [Kerstin]: Gregg, can we be careful to not use "Level 4" and instead simply call these things "advisory" -- we don't want the idea of level 4 creeping into our terminology
21:52:14 [David]: asw: 3.3
21:52:43 [David]: asw: mapped 1.3 & 2.4 but could not get sc
21:53:14 [David]: gv: 1.3 only advisory no sc
21:53:33 [David]: mapped to1.3 no sc - avisory
21:53:36 [wendy]: q+ to say "html technique"
21:54:20 [wendy]: ack john
21:54:21 [wendy]: ack wendy
21:54:21 [Zakim]: wendy, you wanted to say "html technique"
21:54:31 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
21:54:31 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink was already muted, Yvette_Hoitink
21:55:06 [wendy]: ack john
21:56:13 [wendy]: q+
21:57:28 [Yvette_Hoitink]: q+ to say "tech inspecific"
21:57:34 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, unmute me
21:57:34 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:57:59 [ben_]: scribe: ben
21:58:02 [lmascaro]: the point 1.3 as it considers an ulterior level in XSL technologies?
21:58:15 [ben_]: gv: think we should say, not required, advisory in html techniques
21:58:31 [Zakim]: -lmascaro
21:58:49 [achuter]: q+
21:58:49 [ben_]: yh: can we say WCAG isn't tech specific, so we no longer have tech specific info in the guidelines
21:58:56 [wendy]: ack w
21:58:58 [wendy]: ack y
21:58:58 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "tech inspecific"
21:58:58 [David]: David has joined #wai-wcag
21:59:23 [David]: am I back in?
21:59:36 [ben_]: gv: some tech specific (ex. alt text for images) would be required by success criterion
21:59:44 [David]: thx ben
21:59:48 [ben_]: ack yv
22:00:55 [ben_]: gv: ex WCAG 1.0 requirement to use alt on img maps to WCAG 2.0 1.1, this is different than this one (3.3) which is now recommended in HTML techniques
22:01:01 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
22:01:01 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:01:07 [ben_]: ack ach
22:01:17 [David]: thx ben I can go on scribe
22:01:23 [ben_]: ac: am I to understand that this req. has been removed b/c it is tech specific?
22:01:28 [ben_]: scribe: david
22:02:39 [David]: ac: is there a presentation that says you must use css
22:02:46 [rscano]: "use stylesheets for presentation" :)
22:02:51 [David]: gv: no, any separation technique is ok
22:03:44 [Zakim]: +lmascaro
22:03:53 [David]: asw: not requiring metadata anymore...
22:03:59 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, unmute me
22:03:59 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:04:11 [wendy]: q+ to say, "some of the prog located could be accom through metadata"
22:04:15 [wendy]: ack john
22:04:23 [David]: js: might map to 3.1 level 3
22:04:28 [Yvette_Hoitink]: q+
22:04:39 [David]: js: it may need a sc to be written
22:04:42 [wendy]: ack wendy
22:04:42 [Zakim]: wendy, you wanted to say, "some of the prog located could be accom through metadata"
22:04:55 [bengt]: agress
22:04:56 [lmascaro]: zakim, mute me
22:04:56 [Zakim]: lmascaro should now be muted
22:05:10 [David]: gv: yes
22:05:11 [wendy]: ack y
22:05:51 [David]: yh: 2.3 level 3 delivery units have descriptive titles - that is metadata
22:06:23 [David]: gv: limited map to 2.4 sc4
22:06:50 [David]: ben whats the 1.0 guideline
22:06:54 [wendy]: scribe: david
22:07:10 [ben_]: 13.2
22:07:13 [Yvette_Hoitink]: In my comment: s/2.3 level 3/2.4 level 3 item 4
22:07:20 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, mute me
22:07:20 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:07:45 [David]: gv: 1.0 guideline 13.2 to 2.4 sc4
22:08:31 [wendy]: ack j
22:08:33 [David]: gv: meta data is a tecunique that couldbe used o the folling requirements
22:09:04 [David]: jw: i don't think it covers it... that's a tech specific statement
22:10:15 [David]: jw: 1.1 and 1.3 can be done with meta data as per Lisa
22:10:39 [David]: 12.2
22:11:12 [David]: asw: frames and how the relate, tech specific,
22:11:26 [ben_]: q+
22:11:45 [David]: js: 1.3?
22:11:50 [David]: structural component
22:12:02 [David]: gv: butthis talks about whats thepurpose
22:12:16 [David]: gv: sounds 2.4 ish
22:12:33 [David]: gv: is it advisory?
22:12:45 [David]: js: there is a html techniques for it
22:12:52 [ben_]: ack John
22:13:00 [ben_]: q+ John
22:13:12 [David]: js: should be more than advsory in html
22:13:51 [ben_]: ack ben
22:13:52 [ben_]: ack Jason
22:13:59 [David]: bc: has a place
22:14:21 [David]: jw: a frame is purely presentational
22:14:43 [gregg]: g+
22:14:49 [David]: jw: so there will be 1.3 probs
22:15:05 [ben_]: ack John
22:15:09 [David]: js: agree
22:15:10 [gregg]: Q+
22:15:15 [ben_]: ack gr
22:15:59 [David]: gv: agree with jason which can be used to convey tructure which trips 1.3
22:16:34 [David]: k
22:16:53 [Zakim]: -Kerstin_Goldsmith
22:16:53 [David]: gv: most uses of fmames would trigger 1.3
22:17:18 [David]: js: question: just wondering if it should be discussed in general techniques
22:17:49 [David]: jv: we can describe it in presentationrather than elemental form
22:18:07 [David]: asw: so what's the decision
22:18:08 [Zakim]: +Kerstin_Goldsmith
22:18:23 [David]: gv: most uses of frames would require this to meet 1.3
22:20:05 [David]: bc: this until user agent has actually been fulfilled
22:20:44 [David]: andi what was that last 1.0 one
22:20:50 [wendy]: zakim, close this item
22:20:50 [Zakim]: agendum 3 closed
22:20:51 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:20:53 [Zakim]: 4. Baseline [from wendy]
22:21:47 [David]: hey andi what was that last one in 1.0
22:22:21 [Andi]: sorry?
22:22:23 [wendy]: zakim, close item 4
22:22:23 [Zakim]: agendum 4 closed
22:22:24 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:22:25 [Zakim]: 5. Definition of structure (Issue 506) http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=506 [from wendy]
22:22:25 [Andi]: 10.2
22:22:29 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 5
22:22:29 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Definition of structure (Issue 506) http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=506" taken up [from wendy]
22:22:30 [David]: thx
22:22:38 [Andi]: David, do you want me to take over as scribe now?
22:22:47 [David]: absolutely :-)
22:23:36 [wendy]: scribe: andi
22:23:41 [Andi]: wc: proposal from John on structure and delivery units and authored units
22:23:54 [wendy]: ack joh
22:23:55 [wendy]: ack ja
22:24:18 [Andi]: jw: don't mind having it in but don't think it is particularly helpful
22:24:35 [Yvette_Hoitink]: q+ to say "and/or?"
22:24:47 [wendy]: ack y
22:24:49 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "and/or?"
22:25:03 [Andi]: yh: not sure John has the correct definition
22:25:10 [wendy]: Structure:
22:25:12 [wendy]: a. The way the parts of an authored unit are organized in relation to each other
22:25:14 [wendy]: b. The way a collection of authored units is organized in relation to a
22:25:15 [wendy]: delivery unit;
22:25:17 [wendy]: c. The way a collection of delivery units is organized
22:25:37 [Andi]: gv: add "and" after each to clarify
22:26:12 [wendy]: current defn of structure (19 Nov 2004 draft):
22:26:14 [wendy]: structure
22:26:15 [wendy]: Structure includes both hierarchical structure of the content and non-hierarchical relationships such as cross-references, or the correspondence between header and data cells in a table. The hierarchical structure of content represents changes in context. For example,
22:26:17 [wendy]: 1.
22:26:19 [wendy]: A book is divided into chapters, paragraphs, lists, etc. Chapter titles help the reader anticipate the meaning of the following paragraphs. Lists clearly indicate separate, yet related ideas. All of these divisions help the reader anticipate changes in context.
22:26:20 [wendy]: 2.
22:26:22 [wendy]: A bicycle is divided into wheels and a frame. Further, a wheel is divided into a tire and a rim. In an image of the bicycle, one group of circles and lines becomes "wheel" while another group becomes "frame."
22:27:00 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#structuredef
22:27:15 [Zakim]: -Chris
22:27:18 [ChrisR]: ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
22:27:46 [Andi]: gv: recommendation to use John's definition and follow with some examples
22:28:03 [wendy]: action: js add examples to structure defn
22:28:06 [wendy]: zakim, close this item
22:28:06 [Zakim]: agendum 5 closed
22:28:07 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:28:08 [Zakim]: 6. Issue 848: accept Loretta's proposal to reword? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=848 [from wendy]
22:28:11 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
22:28:13 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 6
22:28:13 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Issue 848: accept Loretta's proposal to reword? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=848" taken up [from wendy]
22:29:07 [Andi]: gv: proposal to substitute user agent for plug-in
22:29:48 [Andi]: wc: if using UAAG for baseline, should use "user agent" here
22:30:17 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/glossary.html#def-user-agent
22:31:26 [lmascaro]: but when it is the plugin to contain the user-agent type real player?
22:31:28 [Andi]: gv: software and doc components together have to conform to UAAG
22:31:38 [wendy]: "The software and documentation components that together, conform to the requirements of this document." s/"this document"/UAAG 1.0
22:31:43 [wendy]: zakim, close this item
22:31:43 [Zakim]: agendum 6 closed
22:31:44 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:31:47 [Zakim]: 7. Issue 887: accept Ben's explanation and close this bug? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=887 [from wendy]
22:31:53 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 7
22:31:53 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Issue 887: accept Ben's explanation and close this bug? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=887" taken up [from wendy]
22:32:08 [Andi]: gv: Access Board issue - principles are not testable
22:32:32 [Andi]: gv: principles are only meant to be titles, not testable. SC are testable.
22:32:51 [wendy]: ack j
22:33:14 [Andi]: js: thought we decided that guidelines were to be written as imperatives not as testable propositions.
22:33:44 [Andi]: gv: clarifies response - not that guidelines are testable, SC are testable.
22:34:20 [wendy]: ack j
22:35:40 [Andi]: jw: SC should be interpreted in the context of the guideline and GL should be interpreted in the context of the principle
22:35:52 [wendy]: that fits well under: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#structuredef
22:36:41 [Andi]: gv: js to take a plain language pass at this
22:36:51 [Andi]: wc: paragraph under "how to read this document"
22:37:17 [wendy]: action: john and jason write paragraph to fit under "how to read this doc" that explains that when doubt in interpretation look to thte level above
22:37:21 [wendy]: zakim, close this item
22:37:21 [Zakim]: agendum 7 closed
22:37:22 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
22:37:23 [Andi]: gv: old issue from Greg Gay - minimize use of repetitive and non-meaningful content
22:37:24 [Zakim]: 8. Issue 499: covered in guideline 1.1? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=499 [from wendy]
22:37:28 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 8
22:37:28 [Zakim]: agendum 8. "Issue 499: covered in guideline 1.1? http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=499" taken up [from wendy]
22:37:37 [wendy]: q?
22:37:38 [Zakim]: -Kerstin_Goldsmith
22:38:24 [Andi]: gv: bc thinks this is covered under 1.1 gl about non-text content that does not convey any information
22:38:29 [wendy]: ack mi
22:39:09 [gregg]: ack j
22:39:11 [Zakim]: +Kerstin_Goldsmith
22:39:22 [Andi]: js: HTML technique about alt=""
22:40:16 [Andi]: lg: what about not including "link to" in your link text, etc.?
22:41:01 [Andi]: gv: do we want to put this in as advisory or do we want to require this?
22:41:16 [Andi]: gv: requiring it may get us into trouble with some things we don't mean for it to apply to
22:41:48 [Andi]: jw: not testable
22:41:49 [wendy]: ack l
22:41:51 [wendy]: ack j
22:42:14 [Andi]: jw: could be interpreted to cover items we don't want it to cover
22:42:40 [Andi]: gv: moves we close the bug with text Wendy proposed in 1.1
22:42:45 [Andi]: agreed
22:42:49 [rscano]: agreed
22:43:10 [Yvette_Hoitink]: zakim, unmute me
22:43:10 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette_Hoitink
22:43:12 [wendy]: zakim, close this item
22:43:12 [Zakim]: agendum 8 closed
22:43:13 [Zakim]: I see nothing remaining on the agenda
22:43:17 [Zakim]: -Alan
22:43:29 [Kerstin]: bye gals and guys
22:43:33 [rellero]: bye
22:43:43 [rscano]: good night :)
22:43:46 [Zakim]: -Mike
22:43:47 [nabe]: good bye
22:43:48 [Zakim]: -Alex_Li
22:43:49 [Zakim]: -Wendy
22:43:51 [Zakim]: -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:43:52 [Zakim]: -Trace
22:43:52 [achuter]: bye all
22:43:52 [lmascaro]: good bye
22:43:53 [Zakim]: -John_Slatin
22:43:54 [Zakim]: -Yvette_Hoitink
22:43:56 [Zakim]: -David
22:43:57 [Yvette_Hoitink]: bye all
22:43:58 [Zakim]: -Kerstin_Goldsmith
22:43:59 [Zakim]: -Andi
22:44:00 [Zakim]: -Bengt?
22:44:02 [Zakim]: -Roberto_Scano
22:44:04 [Zakim]: -rellero
22:44:04 [wendy]: RRSagent, make log world
22:44:05 [Zakim]: -Takayuki
22:44:06 [Zakim]: -lmascaro
22:44:09 [Andi]: Andi has left #wai-wcag
22:44:11 [rellero]: rellero has left #wai-wcag
22:44:11 [wendy]: RRSAgent, make minutes
22:44:25 [bengt]: bengt has left #wai-wcag
22:44:33 [rscano]: rscano has left #wai-wcag
22:44:35 [Zakim]: -JasonWhite
22:44:42 [nabe]: nabe has left #wai-wcag
22:44:59 [Zakim]: -Becky_Gibson
22:45:00 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:45:02 [Zakim]: Attendees were [Microsoft], Bengt, Roberto_Scano, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, [IPcaller], Alex_Li, rellero, [IBM], Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Chris, Andi, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Mike,
22:45:06 [Zakim]: ... Trace, Takayuki, David, Alan, JasonWhite, +1.508.275.aaaa, John_Slatin, +1.508.275.aabb, Bengt?, lmascaro, Kerstin_Goldsmith
22:45:56 [wendy]: Present: Bengt, Roberto_Scano, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Alex_Li, rellero, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Chris, Andi, Michael_Cooper, Yvette_Hoitink, Mike,
22:45:58 [wendy]: Gregg, Ben,, Takayuki, David, Alan, JasonWhite, John_Slatin, Bengt, lmascaro, Kerstin_Goldsmith
22:46:02 [wendy]: Meeting: WCAG WG weekly telecon
22:46:09 [wendy]: RRSAgent, make minutes
22:46:13 [wendy]: zakim, bye
22:46:13 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:46:45 [wendy]: ben? on the minutes page, all of he links have "ttf" instead of jus the wednesday calls
22:46:59 [wendy]: Chair: Gregg
22:47:20 [wendy]: RRSAgent, make minutes
22:48:14 [wendy]: RRSAgent, bye
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items:
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy talk with alex, ian, and others about sap patent question [1]
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/03-wai-wcag-irc#T21-23-45
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy follow up with jason and judy about expense issue in the invited expert agreement [2]
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/03-wai-wcag-irc#T21-28-33
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: js add examples to structure defn [3]
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/03-wai-wcag-irc#T22-28-03
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john and jason write paragraph to fit under "how to read this doc" that explains that when doubt in interpretation look to thte level above [4]
22:48:14 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/03-wai-wcag-irc#T22-37-17