IRC log of dawg on 2005-02-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:31:20 [RRSAgent]

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is logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/02/01-dawg-irc

14:31:30 [dajobe-jango]

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14:31:32 [DanC]

agenda + XML Result set

14:31:41 [DanC]

agenda + test update

14:31:49 [DanC]

agenda + SPARQL Protocol Spec

14:31:56 [AlbertoR]

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14:31:58 [DanC]

agenda + SPARQL QL (rq23) update

14:32:03 [Zakim]

+JosD

14:32:06 [Zakim]

+[ASemantics]

14:32:08 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:32:16 [AndyS]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:32:16 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P0, Yoshio, Kevin, ??P2, JosD, [ASemantics], DanC

14:32:28 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P0 is AndyS

14:32:28 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:32:31 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P2 is DaveB

14:32:31 [Zakim]

+DaveB; got it

14:32:58 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P0 is AndyS

14:32:58 [Zakim]

I already had ??P0 as AndyS, DanC

14:33:03 [Zakim]

+??P5

14:33:05 [DanC]

Zakim, take up agendum 1

14:33:05 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0076.html" taken up [from DanC]

14:33:11 [SteveH]

Zakim, ??P5 is SteveH

14:33:11 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:33:43 [AlbertoR]

regrets Kendall Clark

14:33:45 [DanC]

Regrets: KendallC

14:33:51 [DanC]

Regrets+ Howard

14:34:17 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

14:35:07 [DanC]

Scribe: AlbertoR

14:35:26 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:35:29 [DanC]

not done: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf4.html $Revision: 1.40 $

14:36:20 [DanC]

6 of 25 items summarized

14:36:46 [DanC]

next meeting: Tuesday, February 8, 2005

14:36:54 [DanC]

partial regrets AndyS

14:36:58 [DanC]

next scribe: EricP

14:36:58 [AlbertoR]

EricP will scribe 08/02/2005

14:37:20 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: to (with EricP) communicate WBS user experience to systems team.

14:37:21 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:38:03 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

14:38:14 [patH]

patH has joined #dawg

14:38:35 [DanC]

Meeting: RDF Data Access WG Teleconference

14:38:38 [DanC]

Chair: DanC

14:38:41 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

14:39:18 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:39:18 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "ftf meetings " taken up [from DanC]

14:39:32 [DanC]

- ACTION AlbertoR: to propose a f2f meeting in Leiden http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0072.html

14:40:20 [DaveB-lap]

www2005 is 10-14 May

14:40:33 [DanC]

"10-14 May 2005 Chiba, Japan

14:40:33 [DanC]

WWW2005" -- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/CG/#future

14:41:08 [AlbertoR]

ok proposed f2f 6th will be in between www2005 and XTech2005

14:41:30 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: consider Asemantics hosting proposal w.r.t. WG schedule

14:41:58 [AlbertoR]

SteveH was also willing to offer to host next face-to-face

14:42:38 [DanC]

ACTION SteveH: propose to host in Southampton right after XTech

14:42:38 [AlbertoR]

ACTION: SteveH will make another offer for next face-to-face

14:42:57 [DanC]

ACTION PatH: propose to host in Florida

14:43:03 [AlbertoR]

ACTION -4

14:44:27 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:44:27 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "valueTesting, XML Schema datatypes" taken up [from DanC]

14:44:42 [DanC]

XML Schema Datatypes and the Semantic Web Jeremy Carroll (Monday, 31

14:44:42 [DanC]

January)

14:44:42 [DanC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0071.html

14:44:56 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/XSCH/xsch-sw-20050127/

14:46:33 [AlbertoR]

SWBP requested review of the XSCH document: EricP and PathH

14:46:54 [AlbertoR]

ACTION: EricP and PathH will review XSCH draft document

14:48:54 [AlbertoR]

the two reviewers will first report to DAWG - comments will most propably arrive after publication

14:49:02 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:49:02 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "accessing collections" taken up [from DanC]

14:49:19 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:49:19 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, Yoshio, Kevin, DaveB, JosD, [ASemantics], DanC, SteveH, EricP, PatH

14:50:02 [AlbertoR]

Jos test-case http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0075.html

14:50:20 [AlbertoR]

oppss..http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0077.html

14:51:26 [DaveB-lap]

for me ,postpone

14:51:30 [SteveH]

+1

14:51:37 [AlbertoR]

+1

14:51:42 [DanC]

postpone, pick an o:item URI, make syntax

14:51:52 [DanC]

^options

14:52:17 [DanC]

yoshio, which do you prefer/like? postpone, pick an o:item URI, make syntax

14:52:49 [SteveH]

zakim, mute me

14:52:49 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

14:53:05 [AlbertoR]

about to postpone accessing-collections:

14:53:57 [SteveH]

zakim, unmute me

14:53:57 [Zakim]

SteveH should no longer be muted

14:54:04 [SteveH]

zakim, mute me

14:54:04 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

14:54:31 [AlbertoR]

postpone: 6

14:54:34 [DanC]

postpone: 1+1+1+1+1+1 -1; pick uri: 1+1

14:54:34 [AlbertoR]

owl:item: 2

14:55:00 [Yoshio]

0

14:57:02 [SteveH]

not really realted

14:58:22 [AlbertoR]

DanC: cwm seems/is able to deal with collections nicely - it might be stated into the service description

15:00:28 [AlbertoR]

EricP: mentioned a possible issue related to the interaction of collections (or inferred triples) and result-set format

15:00:51 [AndyS]

There is also the &ns:func() mechanism

15:02:11 [SteveH]

I'm interested, but still think its early

15:03:07 [AlbertoR]

JosD and PatH (Andy parially?) agree on access-collection importance -

15:04:26 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 7

15:04:26 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "SPARQL Protocol Spec" taken up [from DanC]

15:04:41 [DanC]

ACTION KendallC: Announce the protocol spec

15:04:49 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: to inviestigate WSDL/SOAP encodings of SPARQL protocol

15:05:03 [AlbertoR]

Kendall, EricP actions continued

15:05:06 [DanC]

ericp: preempted by datatype work

15:05:15 [DanC]

ACTION KendallC: to propose a solution to protocolRootReferent

15:05:24 [DanC]

. ACTION DanC: write up "sparqlParam" approach

15:06:09 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: write up "sparqlParam" approach (reply to kendallC)

15:06:47 [DanC]

Some protocol & service description issues http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0046.html

15:07:12 [SteveH]

no

15:07:14 [DanC]

ACTION SteveH: Write up a service description of features supported for his service

15:07:33 [DanC]

ACTION KendallC: Add section for service descriptions and put graph specifying in it to start it off (some progress, it seems. continues)

15:07:45 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: Write up definitive service concept

15:08:26 [DanC]

ACTION KendallC: to think about predicate to relate html-forms and svc descriptions, and how this goes into the spec

15:08:55 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: discuss accessingCollections in service description context

15:09:05 [DanC]

Zakim, close this agendum

15:09:05 [Zakim]

agendum 7 closed

15:09:06 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:09:08 [Zakim]

4. accessing collections [from DanC]

15:09:12 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 4

15:09:12 [Zakim]

agendum 4 closed

15:09:13 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:09:14 [Zakim]

5. XML Result set [from DanC]

15:09:21 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:09:21 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "XML Result set" taken up [from DanC]

15:09:30 [DanC]

ACTION DaveB: discuss options for column ordering and pick one

15:10:03 [SteveH]

+1 to query order

15:10:05 [DanC]

DaveB: seems "unconstrined" is unpopular, so I'm down to 2

15:10:39 [SteveH]

* would be mention order wouldn't it?

15:12:17 [SteveH]

unconstrained order is inconvienient for clients

15:12:26 [AndyS]

What's u2070?

15:12:27 [SteveH]

and little more work for servers

15:13:06 [AndyS]

But yes, the var name is currently NCNAMES - any problem there?

15:13:10 [AlbertoR]

AndyS: picked up one from BNF (ramdonly) - just wondering about Unicode and ordering in the result-set

15:13:12 [ericP]

intellectually, i prefer DanC's. aestheticaqlly, i prefer andy's

15:13:30 [SteveH]

SELECT order is very useful in some cases

15:13:32 [AndyS]

Not sort order!

15:13:39 [SteveH]

especially if you have SELECT expressions!

15:13:48 [AlbertoR]

+1 SteveH

15:13:56 [ericP]

+1 SteveH

15:14:49 [AndyS]

+1 to SELECT order if SELECT ?a ?z ?c

15:15:12 [AndyS]

If SELECT * - don't care but can't see value of mention order

15:15:37 [SteveH]

AndyS, why not? its helpful sometimes

15:15:51 [SteveH]

I think SQL does specify, but havent checked

15:16:03 [AndyS]

It's work - assumes (1) you parsed it and (2) you parsed in order :-)

15:16:26 [SteveH]

AndyS, yes, but easier for users - ie. predictable webween systems

15:16:29 [DanC]

PROPOSED: order in result set is: if SELECT a,b, c then a,b,c; if SELECT * then unconstrained

15:16:30 [SteveH]

*between

15:16:51 [SteveH]

mildly

15:16:58 [SteveH]

I prefer mention order

15:17:06 [SteveH]

Zakim, unmute me

15:17:06 [Zakim]

SteveH should no longer be muted

15:17:56 [DanC]

SteveH argues for first mentioned order in SELECT *

15:18:09 [DanC]

EricP: mysql seems to use schema order in case of SELECT *

15:19:45 [DanC]

SteveH notes that lexicographic order is complicated for expressions

15:20:11 [AlbertoR]

if SELECT *would be sorted in query order - which one? (considering optimizers and arbitrary grap-patterns processing)

15:20:17 [ericP]

why is nothing easy?

15:20:41 [DanC]

PROPOSED: order in result set is: if SELECT a,b, c then a,b,c; if SELECT * then unconstrained

15:21:11 [DanC]

so RESOLVED. SteveH abstaining

15:21:18 [ericP]

ok, i guess that was comparitively easy

15:21:37 [DaveB-lap]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2005Jan/0103.html

15:21:48 [AlbertoR]

ACTION -16

15:21:52 [DanC]

DONE: ACTION DaveB: to post announcement about XML result set on appropriate mailing lists.

15:22:02 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: ask Liam, via SemWeb CG, which XML groups might be interested in SPARQL result set WD

15:22:03 [SteveH]

Zakim, mute me

15:22:03 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

15:22:42 [SteveH]

i've implemeted much of it

15:23:04 [DanC]

several seem to have implemented it, or started anyway

15:23:54 [DanC]

Turtle Tuples: Turtle-based query result format Arjohn Kampman (Monday, 24 January) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jan/0019.html

15:24:02 [SteveH]

I have a turtleish result for in the current version of my store - its good for low bandwidhth but not hugely important

15:24:45 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:24:45 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "test update" taken up [from DanC]

15:24:52 [SteveH]

its very like arjohns

15:25:14 [AndyS]

I had a sim format - and dropped it 'cos of maintenance overhead for now

15:25:16 [DaveB-lap]

bound tests in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0080.html

15:25:22 [DanC]

re ACTION DaveB: to draft tests for BOUND (based on ericp's examples)

15:25:25 [DaveB-lap]

AndyS found a bug in the 0080

15:26:26 [AlbertoR]

DaveB: will make a new direcotry in the test cases rep for BOUND

15:26:40 [AlbertoR]

All other actions continued

15:26:43 [DanC]

ACTION SteveH: to propose tests for str() and =~

15:26:50 [DanC]

ACTION SteveH: to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs

15:26:55 [DanC]

ACTION DaveB: to propose source test to approve

15:26:59 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: to propose test case re optionals and ordering

15:27:04 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:27:04 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "SPARQL QL (rq23) update" taken up [from DanC]

15:27:41 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ $Revision: 1.187 $ of $Date: 2005/02/01 10:56:24 $

15:28:41 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: to update rq23 w.r.t. str()

15:29:13 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: to update rq23 w.r.t. BOUND/UNSAID (some progress; UNSAID removed)

15:30:39 [DanC]

EricP seems to have new info re funcs/ops. will send.

15:31:19 [AlbertoR]

AndyS: op:anyURI is literal with a URI datatype

15:31:36 [DanC]

ScribeNick: DanC

15:31:39 [DanC]

ScribeNick: AlbertoR

15:33:18 [AlbertoR]

ACTION AndyS: to revise "unnamed" terminology

15:33:30 [AlbertoR]

ACTIOn -24

15:33:36 [AlbertoR]

ACTION -24

15:33:47 [DanC]

hmm... "8.4 GRAPH and a single, unnamed graph"

15:34:07 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: to revise "unnamed" terminology (continues after all)

15:34:47 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

15:34:49 [Zakim]

-EricP

15:34:52 [Zakim]

-DaveB

15:34:53 [SteveH]

bye

15:34:56 [Zakim]

-SteveH

15:34:56 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

15:35:06 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

15:36:27 [ericP]

W3C has 3 recommendations in the area of selecting from XML infosets: XPath, XQuery and XSLT. While RDF query addresses a different data domain (the RDF graph), any query mechanisms defined by this group must leverage off, and, where possible, interoperate with, the related XML recommendations.

15:36:29 [AlbertoR]

ok I will

15:36:32 [ericP]

XPath

15:36:34 [ericP]

The XPath language defines a non-XML syntax for addressing subtrees from XML documents. It factors out the selection functionality common to XQuery and XSLT. It is hoped that RDF Query will provide analogous functionality for addressing subgraphs. The working group will adopt, or define relationships with, applicable portions of the XPath data model.

15:36:39 [ericP]

XQuery

15:36:42 [ericP]

The Relationship to XQuery section defines the interactions with XQuery.

15:36:44 [ericP]

XPath relies on XSD to define the datatypes on which the functions and operators work

15:36:53 [Zakim]

-[ASemantics]

15:36:56 [Zakim]

-JosD

15:37:33 [Zakim]

-Kevin

15:37:35 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:37:41 [KevinW]

KevinW has left #dawg

15:38:47 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:40:27 [AndyS]

AndyS has left #dawg

16:35:00 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, PatH, in SW_DAWG()9:30AM

16:35:02 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended

16:35:05 [Zakim]

Attendees were Yoshio, Kevin, JosD, [ASemantics], DanC, AndyS, DaveB, SteveH, EricP, PatH

16:59:08 [DaveB]

I note ConstructGroup is not used in rq23 grammar

17:16:52 [AndyS]

DaveB - noted - it was a late removal (Alberto suggested) and clearly I didn't remove it all

17:17:06 [AndyS]

I have been trying the bound test case

17:17:14 [DaveB]

so have I

17:17:15 [DaveB]

it doesn't work

17:17:31 [AndyS]

Removed ConstructGroup

17:17:57 [AndyS]

I get a different answer.

17:18:11 [AndyS]

-------------

17:18:11 [AndyS]

| a | c |

17:18:11 [AndyS]

=============

17:18:11 [AndyS]

| :c2 | :f |

17:18:11 [AndyS]

| :a2 | :c2 |

17:18:12 [AndyS]

-------------

17:18:38 [AndyS]

which looks correct but even on this small example it's hard to be sure

17:18:59 [AndyS]

I fixed the manifest, data and query. Presumably you have too.

17:20:23 [DaveB]

not yet

17:20:39 [DaveB]

the engine's getting the wrong answer (3 items) but does give the 2 correct ones

17:21:28 [DaveB]

the ones above

17:22:02 [AndyS]

I had to fix a few things first - my engine was unhappy about unbound variables in a more serious way than intended.

17:26:57 [DaveB]

let me add the test to a dir 'bound'

17:27:23 [AndyS]

Please fix manifest/data/query for synatx first please

17:27:37 [DaveB]

what?

17:28:08 [DaveB]

manifest.n3

17:28:14 [DaveB]

mf:action

17:28:14 [DaveB]

[ qt:query <bound1.rq> ;

17:28:14 [DaveB]

qt:data <data.n3> ] ;

17:28:14 [DaveB]

mf:result <bound1-result-001.n3>

17:28:25 [DaveB]

hmm, that's wrong too

17:28:34 [AndyS]

That is not as per email.

17:29:17 [AndyS]

e.g "qt:query <bound1-001>"

17:29:30 [DaveB]

yeah, well it's broken

17:29:40 [DaveB]

let me cvs add something see what it is

17:30:36 [DaveB]

try cvs up

17:30:45 [DaveB]

I hardly expect the web to work ACL-wise, but I'll check

17:31:08 [DaveB]

seems to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/bound/

17:32:56 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #dawg

17:33:12 [DaveB]

RRSAgent, off