IRC log of dawg on 2004-12-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:29:27 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started
14:29:31 [TomAdams]
TomAdams has joined #dawg
14:29:36 [Zakim]
14:29:59 [Zakim]
14:30:01 [SteveH]
Zakim, NickG is SteveH
14:30:01 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:30:11 [Yoshio]
Yoshio has joined #dawg
14:30:30 [Zakim]
14:31:09 [Zakim]
14:31:26 [Zakim]
14:31:32 [Zakim]
14:31:39 [DaveB]
DaveB has joined #dawg
14:32:44 [Zakim]
14:32:53 [TomAdams]
zakim, Tucana is TomAdams
14:32:53 [Zakim]
+TomAdams; got it
14:33:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.629.aaaa
14:33:37 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:33:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:34:00 [Zakim]
14:34:09 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P7 is DaveB
14:34:09 [Zakim]
+DaveB; got it
14:34:20 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:34:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH, DanC, SimonR, JanneS, Andy_Seaborne, Yoshio, TomAdams, ericP, DaveB
14:34:49 [AndyS]
Kendall: "I have to give potential regrets for tomorrow;"
14:35:08 [SimonR]
SteveH volunteers to scribe on 2005-01-11.
14:35:28 [SimonR]
Previous minutes ACCEPTED.
14:35:38 [DanC]
agenda + ftf4, 5
14:35:54 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:35:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "XML Results format" taken up [from DanC]
14:36:04 [DaveB]
14:36:42 [ericP]
14:37:51 [DanC]
fielding comments? DaveB not on the 1st line of defense
14:38:04 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:38:04 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Protocol Spec" taken up [from DanC]
14:39:33 [SimonR]
Publishing moratorium at W3C will keep things from being published until Christmas.
14:40:13 [DaveB]
is newest?
14:40:27 [SimonR]
EricP's ACTION to publish protocol CONTINUES.
14:40:40 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:40:40 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:49 [SimonR]
EricP estimates 50% change of getting it published by the 11th.
14:41:09 [ericP]
i put turtle links into http://unagi/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README.html
14:41:56 [SimonR]
14:43:19 [SimonR]
RESOLVED to update tests/data/examples/ex2-4a.rq per 0517
14:43:36 [DaveB]
14:43:45 [Yoshio]
* Hmm... is it just me who can't go to the http://unagi/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README.html ?
14:43:48 [DanC]
ACTION DaveB: update ex2-4a.rq
14:43:56 [SimonR]
(And the list message is
14:44:02 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:44:02 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "UNSAID" taken up [from DanC]
14:44:06 [Yoshio]
danc: yes
14:44:53 [SimonR]
EricP got feedback from PatH about UNSAID; Pat was worried about damaging monotonicity.
14:45:01 [DaveB]
(comma has gone in ex2-ra.rq)
14:45:07 [DaveB]
14:46:04 [DanC]
action -1
14:46:04 [SimonR]
PatH and Thomas are discussing it; should a QL allow you to arrive at conclusions you might rescind with more information? Eric personally thinks that it more useful to permit non-monotonicity.
14:46:15 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:46:26 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:46:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH, DanC, SimonR, JanneS, Andy_Seaborne, Yoshio, TomAdams, ericP, DaveB
14:46:36 [SimonR]
EricP plans to wait for PatH & Thomas to finish their exploration of the issue.
14:47:13 [Zakim]
14:48:20 [SimonR]
JanneS favors leaving UNSAID out.
14:48:48 [SimonR]
AndyS is neutral on the feature.
14:49:12 [DanC]
SteveH doesn't like it for "a lot of reasons"
14:49:19 [DanC]
DanC: fun to play with, but not time to standardize yet
14:49:55 [SimonR]
Yoshio favors retaining UNSAID.
14:50:22 [SimonR]
DaveB favors leaving UNSAID out.
14:50:56 [SimonR]
JosD would be happy to leave it out, and agrees with PatH's analysis.
14:51:12 [DaveB]
(ptr to PatH's analysis msg?)
14:51:37 [DaveB]
PatH msg
14:52:04 [DaveB]
SteveH: that test will die, I have a pending action to do that and un-cvs commit changes
14:52:28 [SteveH]
DaveB, ok, well I've fixed it for now
14:52:45 [SimonR]
EricP favors retaining it, but will go with what the WG wants.
14:52:49 [DanC]
4.3 Non-existent Triples
14:52:49 [Yoshio]
Hmm, I'm not so strongly stick to it, though I found it interesting... so if consensus is needed, I can do without UNSAID... I hear substantial opinion against it
14:53:21 [ericP]
EricP: UNSAID was trivial to implement
14:56:01 [SimonR]
EricP suggests that constraint-checking is a need for UNSAID; SteveH says this can be done with OPTIONAL.
14:56:22 [ericP]
DanC: i note that SOURCE and UNSAID are symmetrical -- if you put one in, people will expect the other
14:56:55 [ericP]
s/constraint-checking/consistency checking/
14:57:14 [DanC]
ACTION EricP: own (i.e. propose resolution to) UNSAID issue
14:57:33 [Yoshio]
* UNSAID reflects the open world assumption, so it is charactristic and interesting... and even educational
14:57:50 [DanC]
DanC suggests test cases that follow use cases that motivate "non-existent triples"
14:59:16 [JosD]
test cases in
14:59:33 [SimonR]
ACTION SteveH: add DanC test from list message 538
14:59:50 [DaveB]
JosD: can you please write tests in sparql, I find n3ql hard to read
15:00:31 [DaveB]
15:00:39 [SimonR]
ACTION JosD: review message 538 tests
15:00:47 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:00:47 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Disjunction" taken up [from DanC]
15:02:32 [Yoshio]
what's the poll again, please?
15:02:51 [Yoshio]
to kick them out?
15:02:54 [ericP]
15:03:01 [SimonR]
Poll is, would you object to removing disjunction, in order to close that issue?
15:03:15 [Yoshio]
15:03:31 [SimonR]
Objections from SimonR and EricP to remove disjunction.
15:03:36 [Yoshio]
and me
15:03:48 [Yoshio]
I object
15:06:27 [ericP]
and perhap Tom (I'm not sure what he had said)
15:06:40 [SimonR]
SteveH's ownership of disjunction issue continues.
15:06:56 [SimonR]
(Yes, I believe TomA and Toshio as well.)
15:07:07 [Yoshio]
15:07:16 [DaveB]
ericP can you add some words re what knd of disj you are testing in your test - shortcut disj or whatever you call it?
15:07:20 [SimonR]
ACTION EricP: add test from list message 464 to the test suite.
15:07:31 [ericP]
15:08:11 [SimonR]
Both SteveH DaveB favor to removal of disjunction.
15:08:23 [SimonR]
15:08:25 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:08:25 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "SPARQL SOURCE Issue" taken up [from DanC]
15:08:30 [ericP]
DaveB, I have a couple other forms, but I didn't include them in test
15:09:19 [SimonR]
DaveB's action continues.
15:09:55 [DaveB]
hmm, test case for protocol...
15:09:59 [SimonR]
Janne's action continues.
15:10:17 [SimonR]
DanC has no progress on SOURCE formalization to report -- also CONTINUES
15:11:19 [SimonR]
SteveH is willing to integrate protocol tests with the language tests, eventually.
15:11:25 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:11:25 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "issue languageProtocolName" taken up [from DanC]
15:12:10 [SimonR]
JanneS asks for expressions of interest in a JDBC driver for SPARQL?
15:12:13 [DanC]
agenda + JDBC open source... [Janne]
15:13:05 [ericP]
15:13:51 [SimonR]
Straw poll for the "SPARQL" name.
15:15:04 [ericP]
we have a name that engages semweb developers who are german, swedish, or 12 year old girls
15:15:13 [SimonR]
PROPOSED to adopt the name -- RESOLVED without objection or abstention.
15:15:27 [SimonR]
ACTION AndyS to update SPARQL language document
15:15:47 [Yoshio]
* and even Japanese ^_^
15:15:53 [DanC]
ACTION EricP: ask Kendall to update protocol spec w.r.t. SPARQL expansion
15:15:54 [SimonR]
ACTION SteveH to update test document with SPARQL name
15:16:36 [SimonR]
ACTION DaveB: to update XMl results document with SPARQL name
15:16:58 [SimonR]
ACTION AndyS: to update SPARQL language document with name
15:16:59 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
15:16:59 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:17:00 [Zakim]
8. issue languageProtocolName [from DanC]
15:17:01 [Zakim]
9. SPARQL syntax, QL pub plans [from DanC]
15:17:02 [Zakim]
10. ftf4, 5 [from DanC]
15:17:03 [Zakim]
11. JDBC open source... [from Janne via DanC]
15:17:09 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 10
15:17:09 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "ftf4, 5" taken up [from DanC]
15:17:53 [Yoshio]
yes, where are folks going to stay?
15:17:58 [SimonR]
DanC will reopen the F2F questionnaire so that last-minute hotel detials can be communicated.
15:18:04 [SteveH]
Yoshio, I'm staying at the raddison
15:18:15 [Yoshio]
15:18:19 [SteveH]
15:18:36 [Yoshio]
Is it reasonable to stay in Helshinki?
15:18:50 [TomAdams]
I'm in Helsinki also. Radisson SAS Plaz.a
15:18:55 [SteveH]
I think so, its not far
15:18:55 [Yoshio]
15:19:09 [Yoshio]
Thanks (Kiitos ^_^)
15:19:59 [TomAdams]
I found prices unreasonable for all of Finland with the US exchange rate ;)
15:20:00 [SimonR]
DanC: F2F5 -- expect to be meeting Monday and Tuesday, with agreement from EricP.
15:20:14 [DaveB]
(I just cvs commt the untrusted graph tests; will try them out before announcing them for real)
15:20:21 [DanC]
Zakim, close this agendum
15:20:21 [Zakim]
agendum 10 closed
15:20:22 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:20:23 [Zakim]
8. issue languageProtocolName [from DanC]
15:20:28 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 8
15:20:28 [Zakim]
agendum 8 closed
15:20:29 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:20:30 [Zakim]
9. SPARQL syntax, QL pub plans [from DanC]
15:20:40 [Zakim]
15:20:43 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 9
15:20:43 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "SPARQL syntax, QL pub plans" taken up [from DanC]
15:22:19 [SimonR]
AndyS: In the process of addressing PatH's comments; easy ones already treated, getting more difficult to integrate the remaining ones.
15:22:41 [SimonR]
AndyS estimates well over halfway.
15:23:37 [ericP]
SteveH, data consistency tests with UNSAID and OPTIONAL ->
15:24:59 [SimonR]
SimonR's ACTIONS (on XML result format and scalar constraints both continue)
15:25:08 [SteveH]
ericP, I was talking about the specific "do I have a emain addr for htis person" case
15:25:23 [ericP]
15:26:47 [SimonR]
DanC considers TimBL's comment on SOURCE to have been appropriately dealt with.
15:26:55 [SteveH]
DaveB, do you want those in the doc now?
15:27:09 [DaveB]
SteveH: yeah
15:27:26 [DaveB]
SteveH: this time I checked the turtle was correct
15:27:28 [DanC]
DanC withdraws his proposal to publish, given that the editor's todo list looks significant
15:27:46 [SimonR]
Too many "to do" items on SPARQL language document to resolve to publish this time.
15:27:52 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:27:52 [Zakim]
agendum 11. "JDBC open source..." taken up [from Janne]
15:28:00 [DanC]
Zakim, close this agendum
15:28:00 [Zakim]
agendum 11 closed
15:28:01 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
15:28:29 [DanC]
next meeting 11 Jan
15:28:38 [Yoshio]
Hyvaa joulua!
15:28:39 [Zakim]
15:28:40 [Zakim]
15:28:41 [Zakim]
15:28:50 [SimonR]
15:28:57 [Zakim]
15:28:58 [Zakim]
15:29:02 [Zakim]
15:29:28 [SteveH]
15:30:22 [DaveB]
should be a data/source-named in that url I think?
15:32:22 [SteveH]
15:32:25 [Zakim]
15:33:11 [DaveB]
DaveB has joined #dawg
15:35:54 [DanC]
I believe the question I put regarding the name included the expansion, Simon.
15:36:06 [DanC]
pls make that clear in the edited minutes.
15:36:28 [SteveH]
DaveB, what did you mean by should have data/source-named in, were you expecting
15:38:10 [DaveB]
I guess so, if you use the manifest.n3 in data/source-named/ as the definition
15:38:24 [DaveB]
you're the editor :)
15:50:08 [SimonR]
Sorry Dan -- was that "Simple Protocol And RDF Query Language"?
15:50:43 [AndyS]
No - it's "SPARQL Protocol And RDF Query Language"
15:51:11 [DanC]
indeed, from the agenda: "PROPOSED: SPARQL Protocol and RDF Query Language"
15:51:22 [SimonR]
I heard both during the meeting, ta for the clarification.
15:51:36 [DanC]
15:54:58 [ericP]
16:01:31 [SteveH]
DaveB, I've been ensuring that all the local names are unique, but I guess that would be safer
16:07:22 [Zakim]
16:07:23 [Zakim]
16:07:24 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:07:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were DanC, SteveH, SimonR, JanneS, Andy_Seaborne, Yoshio, [Tucana], TomAdams, +1.617.629.aaaa, ericP, DaveB, JosD
16:07:42 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:07:55 [DanC]
Zakim, bye
16:07:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg
16:07:59 [DanC]
RRSAgent, bye
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items:
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: EricP to own (i.e. propose resolution to) UNSAID issue [2]
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SteveH to add DanC test from list message 538 [3]
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JosD to review message 538 tests [4]
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: EricP to add test from list message 464 to the test suite. [5]
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: EricP to ask Kendall to update protocol spec w.r.t. SPARQL expansion [6]
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DaveB to to update XMl results document with SPARQL name [7]
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS to to update SPARQL language document with name [8]
16:07:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in